Idiom of Permission

[Raf]

You know  if I realized the opening post was from 11 years ago I MIGHT not have split the threads.

[Nathan_Jr]

Someone made a comment on another board that permitted a feeling of hope in me, but it was fleeting. 

He said that English doesn't have a third person command like Greek. This was his reason for the translation "Let there be light" in Genesis, (which was written in Hebrew).

His comment gathered no traction. Credit goes to all the other posters for ignoring him.

Sounds exactly like something victor would say, but there might be a kernel in this idea. A tremendous kernel. I'm open, but remain unconvinced.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[chockfull]

17 hours ago, Raf said:

I disagree.

1. Who is that author? What are his credentials? Where did he study? What are his sources? We genuinely have NO IDEA. Amazon tells us nothing.

He does have a website. Doesn't she'd much light. He's a Trinitarian, so that rules out a Wierwille clone. Still could have had some intersection with TWI. But not enough to render a verdict either way [technically, that's a not guilty, but I'd go with a hung jury].

2. This is one guy. You said referenceS. Plural. But can you find another one that's clearly not TWI influenced? I couldn't. I tried, and came up with the same guy.

Others clearly have TWI fingerprints.

I mean, it's a Bullinger doctrine. Surely TWI didn't originate it.

 

 

Sure.  Here’s a Voice of Elijah website discussing it.

https://www.voiceofelijah.org/questions-and-answers/what-is-a-hebrew-idiom.html#:~:text=A Hebrew idiom is the,words that comprise the idiom.
 

That describes more of the general pattern of Hebrew idioms.  Some of these seem to have apostolic roots which is Pentecostal.

Pretty different from TWI and Bullinger.

I would present the idea that it is a common way to explain violent acts of God in the OT.

And that it represents nothing more than not giving criminals press time.  While telling a story of a sovereign God.

Perhaps the catch phrase “idiom of permission” itself was a Bullinger classification.  But not the idea.

I get some value from Bullingers figures of speech.  And from Darbys lists.  And from Josephus cultural accounts.

I am sure Bullinger would have excommunicated VPW from whatever denomination he was part of for using his works in a way he didn’t intend.  If they lived in the same time.

[chockfull]

5 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Someone made a comment on another board that permitted a feeling of hope in me, but it was fleeting. 

He said that English doesn't have a third person command like Greek. This was his reason for the translation "Let there be light" in Genesis, (which was written in Hebrew).

His comment gathered no traction. Credit goes to all the other posters for ignoring him.

Sounds exactly like something victor would say, but there might be a kernel in this idea. A tremendous kernel. I'm open, but remain unconvinced.

Ok this is stirring up remembering some language studies.  The point I remember was the imperative voice in verbs.  It is in koine Greek where Jesus does the Lord’s Prayer throughout all those verbs.  I don’t think the equivalent exists in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I don’t know if that equates to a passive voice in “let there be light”.  Maybe so.  Would Zeus say “Light” as a command?

I don’t have a burning need to make all the jigsaw puzzles fit.  I view the OT as primitive times technology wise and ethics wise.  So I accept the dichotomy of vision.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Ok this is stirring up remembering some language studies.  The point I remember was the imperative voice in verbs.  It is in koine Greek where Jesus does the Lord’s Prayer throughout all those verbs.  I don’t think the equivalent exists in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I don’t know if that equates to a passive voice in “let there be light”.  Maybe so.  Would Zeus say “Light” as a command?

I don’t have a burning need to make all the jigsaw puzzles fit.  I view the OT as primitive times technology wise and ethics wise.  So I accept the dichotomy of vision.

 

 

Yeah. Could be something. I vaguely remember the imperative mood discussed when analyzing the Lord’s Prayer.

What I DO vividly remember is a thinly veiled contempt for the Lord’s Prayer. If we were anywhere besides the fellowship commander’s own house, he would have spit on the floor while “teaching” that lesson.

Only sincere questions and honest inquiry were hated more than Jesus’ name and his prayer.

———/

I should say, though “let there be light” is not a literal word for word translation, because, well, Hebrew, it’s a totally badass rendering for my taste. Some kind of Jedi quality, maybe, but greater. I’ve always been drawn to that first chapter. And I don’t believe chapter two onward is of the same author. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[cman]

figures of speech in many languages offer vast amounts of information in a lot less words

I tend to take it in as is and let it grow if there is life in those ideas, no matter the source or perceived to be revelation or not

[Raf]

Well done, Chockfull.

[cman]

I think the old testament folks were just like us, you know, people, Jesus too

Primitive like us, refined like us, just as dumb and just as smart

[WordWolf]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:23 PM, chockfull said:

Sure.  Here’s a Voice of Elijah website discussing it.

https://www.voiceofelijah.org/questions-and-answers/what-is-a-hebrew-idiom.html#:~:text=A Hebrew idiom is the,words that comprise the idiom.
 

That describes more of the general pattern of Hebrew idioms.  Some of these seem to have apostolic roots which is Pentecostal.

Pretty different from TWI and Bullinger.

I would present the idea that it is a common way to explain violent acts of God in the OT.

And that it represents nothing more than not giving criminals press time.  While telling a story of a sovereign God.

Perhaps the catch phrase “idiom of permission” itself was a Bullinger classification.  But not the idea.

I get some value from Bullingers figures of speech.  And from Darbys lists.  And from Josephus cultural accounts.

I am sure Bullinger would have excommunicated VPW from whatever denomination he was part of for using his works in a way he didn’t intend.  If they lived in the same time.

That's pretty much the same principle we see in effect when Gideon's discussed. He overthrew Baal's altar, and when people protested, he complained that BAAL should protest, since BAAL is the one who was offended.  So, Gideon got the nickname "Jerubbaal", "Contender with Baal."   Much later, Gideon was referred to as "Jerubbesheth", or "Contender with Idols."  Rather than continue to give Baal free press, the nickname was changed to refer to idols, still referencing the same incident.

Edited November 11, 2023 by WordWolf

[Raf]

Quick comment as I digest the latest posts (not exactly a priority): The article linked does not discuss anything resembling an idiom of permission. It says there are idioms. No duh.

What Is a Hebrew Idiom? | Learn How They Reveal and Conceal Meaning (voiceofelijah.org)

Discussing idioms is not the same thing as discussing an idiom of permission.

 

[cman]

here is the standard definition by twi/bullinger and other offshoots 

The Idiom of Permission : Biblical Studies by Phillip Varady Sr.

there is a lot of assumptions in this definition to make it sound real