The pattern yes. The numbers ballooned at one point and then leveled. Most of the people on GS now probably didn't know Peter Wade, for instance or ever meet him. They came on after his departure, same with many others. The big exodus began mid-80's as we now know and hit stride late 1986 lasting for what, couple years of consistent activity. If not for Chris Geer it would have taken longer but would have happened inevitably albeit at a slower pace and arguably could still be going on in the absence of that upset of the apple cart. A good filter might be event/cause rather than event/person (not to reduce the importance of a person but a single person's leaving would not have the same impact from person to person).
For instance:
- Wierwille hands over the CEO position to Martindale. (transfer of acting authority)
- Wierwille dies (one way to leave the Way). -
- Chris Geer guns for the BOT's. (posthumous posturing puts chokehold political pressure on pompous puppets of the Way)
- Martindale declares war on the Corps and anyone within spitting distance. (Paranoid Post-POP ....ing contest from the Big Unit of the Way)
- Martindale gets sued with his pants down. (curtain of shame pulled away to reveal CEO's true colors, giving new insight into how the "yardstick of success" was being measured)
- etc.
This is just idle participling, of the possible relationships, etc.
It would be interesting to know the numbers of new growth, new "grad" entrants to the Way's records, in 10 year increment starting in 1868. 68 - 78, 79 - 89, 90-2000 and then the first 10 years of the 00's. That would probably cover the history of the GS audience.
Either way it's going down, will continue to go down until it bottoms out. After I left in '89 I gave it 10 years. It was out of gas much sooner, although it certainly kept rolling.
The pattern yes. The numbers ballooned at one point and then leveled. Most of the people on GS now probably didn't know Peter Wade, for instance or ever meet him. They came on after his departure, same with many others. The big exodus began mid-80's as we now know and hit stride late 1986 lasting for what, couple years of consistent activity. If not for Chris Geer it would have taken longer but would have happened inevitably albeit at a slower pace and arguably could still be going on in the absence of that upset of the apple cart.
It would be interesting to know the numbers of new growth, new "grad" entrants to the Way's records, in 10 year increment starting in 1868. 68 - 78, 79 - 89, 90-2000 and then the first 10 years of the 00's. That would probably cover the history of the GS audience.
socks......those 10-year increment stages would give more clarity and focus to our discussions. I've long held the view
that all of us saw vastly different versions of twi......thus, broad generalizations only muddy the waters.
Stage 1
1957-1968.....vpw taught live pfal classes, newsletters, loosely-connected, brc built in 1962, very little momentum,
wierwille set up diamond club (75-tithe faithfully), camper trailer, speakers invited to twi, pfal filmed
Stage 2
1968-1978.....vpw selected few to run pfal, small pockets of outreach (CA, NC, KS, OH, NY), summer camps, hippies, wow amb,
starts corps program, numbers grow, twig structure, music groups, 5 corps campuses established, motorcoaches/planes, PFAL '77,
Stage 3
1979-1989.....major events besides ROA --AC '79, LV '82, SO '84, WIB -east/west, LCM -prez 1982, vpw dies 1985, splintering,
Geer's POP paper, JAL splits, Gartmore trips, mass exodus, confusion/distrust, "fog years" underway
RC campus sold, roa ends 1995, all active corps full-time, WAP series videotaped 1996-98, 2 lawsuits--lcm, small exodus, prez ousted
Stage 5
2001-2011.....Rosalie is twi-prez, corps teach WAP classes live, small disciple groups, corps program anemic, sunday teachings read,
WayGB patrols wierwille Rd, twi draws inward, stops release of information, lights dimmed,......zzzzzzzzzzzz
These 5 stages would help to establish the wide swaths of variables that all of us experienced. Some of us experienced two (or three) of these "stages." And, even with this clarification.....there are plenty of other variables that could be added to the mix. In conclusion, with different backgrounds, leadership, emotional attachments, etc. all of us could probably write a book.
Somehow, this all reminds me of how popular musical groups from the 1950's continue to tour. The original members have long since been replaced, three and four times over. The originals would have to be 117 years old by now. (intentionally exaggerated.) All that remains of the original Way International is a faded memory of something that probably never really existed in the first place.
Somehow, this all reminds me of how popular musical groups from the 1950's continue to tour. The original members have long since been replaced, three and four times over. The originals would have to be 117 years old by now. (intentionally exaggerated.) All that remains of the original Way International is a faded memory of something that probably never really existed in the first place.
That's funny.......
Or, when someone would post about "the good ole days"......all the variables were a moving target. So, going to a twig and smoking pot was "freedom?" The next person could talk about flying on Ambassador One or enjoying Living Victoriously and meeting international students from around the world. Then, another talks about the new Geer-splinter group and it "feels just like twi."
Yeh, it's like tossing a salad, figuratively speaking.
In '68, PFAL on film was only a year old. The previous first effort was pretty lo fi - there were some promo copies floating around for awhile years ago, but I'm sure they were destroyed or are under lock and key now as it looked really home grown. VPW took some sound advice and scrapped that one and they got the financing for the film version we all saw. After years of doing live versions it was in the can, tape and film. The content had been offered over a period of years before that but the filmed product itself was only a year old.
Prior to that the record's scattered mostly likely because the Way was still in early build stages with a much different membership demographic. Picture VPW in his home basement, then getting the family land set and on paper, financing the groundbreaking for the "BRC", beginning to build, etc. He wanted to come off like a player and had some experience but it was a mix of then-and-now, and then wasn't that long ago yet...course to teenagers it seemed like a deep past.
There was no "worldwide Way", there was a guy and his family and close supporters in start up phase. PFAL was a class, an event that could only happen when VP taught it. The idea of PFAL as a piece of media that could be mobile and offered in multiple places at the same time was a very specific vision. I'm sure that for those who saw the value of it as a means for people to learn the bible it was a very significant step forward.
The Way as an organized entity with presence in other cities was much different then, no Corps, no Ambassador program, no leadership meetings, none of that yet. But obviously VPW had that in mind himself as his efforts in California, Indiana, Florida, other states quickly took on a structure resembling any business expansion. Where it may have been a "move of the Word" to participants, the organizational model was simmering up as it grew.
And it would not have grown as it did without California and then New York. Although relatively small numbers-wise, the cross pollination across the nation happened quickly - within just a couple years Way Corps 1 was underway, VPW's intention to have "50 men", trained and assigned out across the country was exploding in numbers and the New Knoxville farm was already over run with people, outsizing it's capacity as a small family farm plot of land.
For anyone who came on the scene after 1967 it seemed like a work in progress, and very open to new ideas. Yet as everyone saw in virtually every effort that was undertaken for the next 10 years or so VPW was at the center, insisting on direct control.
IMO that earlier period was impacted by the formalizing of PFAL on transferrable media, tape and film, allowing for it to run in multiple locations at the same time. This first step allowed VPW to concentrate on building the business around it, the properties, the programs, etc. etc.
You could see this transition in how VPW's public personae morphed, changing from hot bible preacher mode to ruthless CEO to funky hunter-dog guy to golf shorts and knee socked weird guy, back and forth week after week. In 1968 he dressed like an uptight preacher in navy blue suits and seemed quaintly disconnected from the times but anxious to embrace diversity, encouraged it even. But push came to shove and soon enough that changed.
I can't honestly say what the numbers in 10 year increments would show after analysis. I'm not a real data guy but have some familiarity with that discipline, so I don't know what it would show other than growth patterns. What those patterns show in relation to different criteria would be an interesting view and set alongside known major events. (for instance - what if say, after Advanced Class '79 for 6 months was examined - what results and artifacts if any are there to be seen and then what do they mean? or the roll out of Martindale's new Foundational series.....)
Some things would probably be obvious but others may be not so, the obvious. Dunno, it's been a thought that's pattered around the lobes for years. WW's links might indicate some stuff there.
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socks
The pattern yes. The numbers ballooned at one point and then leveled. Most of the people on GS now probably didn't know Peter Wade, for instance or ever meet him. They came on after his departure, same with many others. The big exodus began mid-80's as we now know and hit stride late 1986 lasting for what, couple years of consistent activity. If not for Chris Geer it would have taken longer but would have happened inevitably albeit at a slower pace and arguably could still be going on in the absence of that upset of the apple cart. A good filter might be event/cause rather than event/person (not to reduce the importance of a person but a single person's leaving would not have the same impact from person to person).
For instance:
- Wierwille hands over the CEO position to Martindale. (transfer of acting authority)
- Wierwille dies (one way to leave the Way). -
- Chris Geer guns for the BOT's. (posthumous posturing puts chokehold political pressure on pompous puppets of the Way)
- Martindale declares war on the Corps and anyone within spitting distance. (Paranoid Post-POP ....ing contest from the Big Unit of the Way)
- Martindale gets sued with his pants down. (curtain of shame pulled away to reveal CEO's true colors, giving new insight into how the "yardstick of success" was being measured)
- etc.
This is just idle participling, of the possible relationships, etc.
It would be interesting to know the numbers of new growth, new "grad" entrants to the Way's records, in 10 year increment starting in 1868. 68 - 78, 79 - 89, 90-2000 and then the first 10 years of the 00's. That would probably cover the history of the GS audience.
Either way it's going down, will continue to go down until it bottoms out. After I left in '89 I gave it 10 years. It was out of gas much sooner, although it certainly kept rolling.
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skyrider
socks......those 10-year increment stages would give more clarity and focus to our discussions. I've long held the view
that all of us saw vastly different versions of twi......thus, broad generalizations only muddy the waters.
Stage 1
1957-1968.....vpw taught live pfal classes, newsletters, loosely-connected, brc built in 1962, very little momentum,
wierwille set up diamond club (75-tithe faithfully), camper trailer, speakers invited to twi, pfal filmed
Stage 2
1968-1978.....vpw selected few to run pfal, small pockets of outreach (CA, NC, KS, OH, NY), summer camps, hippies, wow amb,
starts corps program, numbers grow, twig structure, music groups, 5 corps campuses established, motorcoaches/planes, PFAL '77,
Stage 3
1979-1989.....major events besides ROA --AC '79, LV '82, SO '84, WIB -east/west, LCM -prez 1982, vpw dies 1985, splintering,
Geer's POP paper, JAL splits, Gartmore trips, mass exodus, confusion/distrust, "fog years" underway
Stage 4
1990-2000.....LCM asserts twi, loyalty letter, twi fractures more, twi rebuilds, sanctified, homo/debt purges, sell Emporia campus,
RC campus sold, roa ends 1995, all active corps full-time, WAP series videotaped 1996-98, 2 lawsuits--lcm, small exodus, prez ousted
Stage 5
2001-2011.....Rosalie is twi-prez, corps teach WAP classes live, small disciple groups, corps program anemic, sunday teachings read,
WayGB patrols wierwille Rd, twi draws inward, stops release of information, lights dimmed,......zzzzzzzzzzzz
These 5 stages would help to establish the wide swaths of variables that all of us experienced. Some of us experienced two (or three) of these "stages." And, even with this clarification.....there are plenty of other variables that could be added to the mix. In conclusion, with different backgrounds, leadership, emotional attachments, etc. all of us could probably write a book.
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waysider
Somehow, this all reminds me of how popular musical groups from the 1950's continue to tour. The original members have long since been replaced, three and four times over. The originals would have to be 117 years old by now. (intentionally exaggerated.) All that remains of the original Way International is a faded memory of something that probably never really existed in the first place.
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skyrider
That's funny.......
Or, when someone would post about "the good ole days"......all the variables were a moving target. So, going to a twig and smoking pot was "freedom?" The next person could talk about flying on Ambassador One or enjoying Living Victoriously and meeting international students from around the world. Then, another talks about the new Geer-splinter group and it "feels just like twi."
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WordWolf
We discussed stages of twi history in some existing threads, of course.
At one point, I attempted to set up a series of threads with eyewitness accounts from all
the stages of twi. To date, I can't get an account from BEFORE vpw hijacked the hippies,
but people spoke out on the others I posted.
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8329-eyewitnessestwi-from-1953-1966your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8336-eyewitnessestwi-from-1966-1975your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8380-eyewitnessestwi-1976your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8472-eyewitnesses1977-to-1980-your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8530-eyewitnesses1981-1984your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8699-eyewitnessestwi-1985your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8732-eyewitnessestwi-1986-1988your-stories/
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8818-eyewitnesses-1989-1992-your-stories/
And this was an earlier attempt to get some thoughts down.
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4495-rough-recollections-history-and-overview-of-twi/
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skyrider
WW.......yeah, I remember that. But the problem with that approach, I could have posted 40 "stories" in every category
except the 1953-1966. It just didn't seem feasible to me.
I still like the thread approach....where subjects are highlighted. But obviously, it does get confusing unless the poster
qualifies their statement. Generic comments add very little without qualifying specifics. Although, it is perfectly understandable
in a discussion forum to see this.
Of course, funny comments are always welcome too.
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socks
Yeh, it's like tossing a salad, figuratively speaking.
In '68, PFAL on film was only a year old. The previous first effort was pretty lo fi - there were some promo copies floating around for awhile years ago, but I'm sure they were destroyed or are under lock and key now as it looked really home grown. VPW took some sound advice and scrapped that one and they got the financing for the film version we all saw. After years of doing live versions it was in the can, tape and film. The content had been offered over a period of years before that but the filmed product itself was only a year old.
Prior to that the record's scattered mostly likely because the Way was still in early build stages with a much different membership demographic. Picture VPW in his home basement, then getting the family land set and on paper, financing the groundbreaking for the "BRC", beginning to build, etc. He wanted to come off like a player and had some experience but it was a mix of then-and-now, and then wasn't that long ago yet...course to teenagers it seemed like a deep past.
There was no "worldwide Way", there was a guy and his family and close supporters in start up phase. PFAL was a class, an event that could only happen when VP taught it. The idea of PFAL as a piece of media that could be mobile and offered in multiple places at the same time was a very specific vision. I'm sure that for those who saw the value of it as a means for people to learn the bible it was a very significant step forward.
The Way as an organized entity with presence in other cities was much different then, no Corps, no Ambassador program, no leadership meetings, none of that yet. But obviously VPW had that in mind himself as his efforts in California, Indiana, Florida, other states quickly took on a structure resembling any business expansion. Where it may have been a "move of the Word" to participants, the organizational model was simmering up as it grew.
And it would not have grown as it did without California and then New York. Although relatively small numbers-wise, the cross pollination across the nation happened quickly - within just a couple years Way Corps 1 was underway, VPW's intention to have "50 men", trained and assigned out across the country was exploding in numbers and the New Knoxville farm was already over run with people, outsizing it's capacity as a small family farm plot of land.
For anyone who came on the scene after 1967 it seemed like a work in progress, and very open to new ideas. Yet as everyone saw in virtually every effort that was undertaken for the next 10 years or so VPW was at the center, insisting on direct control.
IMO that earlier period was impacted by the formalizing of PFAL on transferrable media, tape and film, allowing for it to run in multiple locations at the same time. This first step allowed VPW to concentrate on building the business around it, the properties, the programs, etc. etc.
You could see this transition in how VPW's public personae morphed, changing from hot bible preacher mode to ruthless CEO to funky hunter-dog guy to golf shorts and knee socked weird guy, back and forth week after week. In 1968 he dressed like an uptight preacher in navy blue suits and seemed quaintly disconnected from the times but anxious to embrace diversity, encouraged it even. But push came to shove and soon enough that changed.
I can't honestly say what the numbers in 10 year increments would show after analysis. I'm not a real data guy but have some familiarity with that discipline, so I don't know what it would show other than growth patterns. What those patterns show in relation to different criteria would be an interesting view and set alongside known major events. (for instance - what if say, after Advanced Class '79 for 6 months was examined - what results and artifacts if any are there to be seen and then what do they mean? or the roll out of Martindale's new Foundational series.....)
Some things would probably be obvious but others may be not so, the obvious. Dunno, it's been a thought that's pattered around the lobes for years. WW's links might indicate some stuff there.
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