What if it all were not true..

[Ham]

Da vicster's claim of eternal salvation and all. You know, incorruptible seed.. in his terms. going to heaven, and all hell can't stop one from going.. can't sin out the holy seed, etc. Saved, purely by grace. Works need not to apply (or interfere).

What if he was just plain WRONG?

I mean. This doctrine was promulgated by one who for lack of better words..

if it's all wrong, by the conduct of his life, he doesn't stand a snowball in hell's chance before St. Peter..

so we have an egotistical, self-serving, abrasive, alcoholic who drugged and raped women one one hand, and on his better days only seduced them.. along with the plagiarism, outright lying and fabrication, and PRETENDING to be a "man of gawd"..

yep, he's "saved" by the wave of a magic wand. Hallelujah..

It was supposed to be a "research ministry". Just seems so many of the "results" weighed in on his favor..

[waysider]

I think that's part of why people still try to hold fast to the Wierwillian doctrines. They've staked everything on Wierwille being right. The concept of VP being wrong is just too scary for them.

[Ham]

I mean.. the more I consider this character, if he was "saved" and all.. I'm starting to get even less of an opinion regarding the value of redemption..

I think that's part of why people still try to hold fast to the Wierwillian doctrines. They've staked everything on Wierwille being right. The concept of VP being wrong is just too scary for them.

I think that's it. They have staked.. everything.

Pretty heavy gamble if you ask me..

[waysider]

What if you woke up one morning and realized everything you believed was really just the ramblings of a drunken old sex addict?

edit:

Dats riiiggghhht!

Edited January 6, 2012 by waysider

[Ham]

A dear friend asked me a similar question. What if you found that everything you believed was wrong..

well, the question was a little too late..

What these Morons can't figure out, is no matter how deceptive they are, they serve a purpose.. they provide a little bit of stability for some of us while we are struggling along the way..

capitalize on that.. use it for one's personal gain..

I'd be surprised even if you are assigned position of "toad" the next life..

[socks]

Da vicster's claim of eternal salvation and all. You know, incorruptible seed.. in his terms. going to heaven, and all hell can't stop one from going.. can't sin out the holy seed, etc. Saved, purely by grace. Works need not to apply (or interfere).

What if he was just plain WRONG?

I mean. This doctrine was promulgated by one who for lack of better words..

if it's all wrong, by the conduct of his life, he doesn't stand a snowball in hell's chance before St. Peter..

so we have an egotistical, self-serving, abrasive, alcoholic who drugged and raped women one one hand, and on his better days only seduced them.. along with the plagiarism, outright lying and fabrication, and PRETENDING to be a "man of gawd"..

yep, he's "saved" by the wave of a magic wand. Hallelujah..

It was supposed to be a "research ministry". Just seems so many of the "results" weighed in on his favor..

Eternal salvation isn't a Wierwillian claim. It's a doctrine held true by Christianity, in different forms amongst many but the idea of salvation through Christ, for an eternity that lasts beyond this earthly existence isn't Wierwille's invention. You understand that - right?

Incorruptible seed is a term used in the Bible. It's not an invention of VPW's research or adoption. You know that - right?

Going to heaven and all hell can't stop you - the intent of God is to have all mankind reconciled to him through Christ. That's in the Bible and not a new doctrinal invention of Wierwille. Much of Christianity believes that man's sins once forgiven are "cast away", and will no longer be reckoned against them to the extent that the ultimate outcome will be to "go to hell". You know that too, right?

Works need not apply - the Bible states that the reconciliation of man to God through Christ is "not of works" but "by grace" and is the "gift of God" to mankind, a fulfillment of a "promise" made.

The conduct of a man's life - doesn't validate or deny what another person says or does. If God's intentions are His own and initiated and fulfilled by Him it's up to each person to come to God, on their own and as all are called to do so - and respond as they will. Or not.

You know that right?

If Wierwille was wrong in how he lived, that makes..........him wrong.

It doesn't make everything else wrong too.

If I'm wrong in everything I write here it doesn't mean that there is no Christ, no Jesus, no Bible, no parts of the Bible that are right and that everyone I've ever shared it with, taught it to or lived it with is....wrong now.

But to answer this question - then, in that case, so being, in that event, then and therefore...

Then it's wrong.

Right?

Are there prizes for the right answer? No - wait. There should be prizes if the answer's wrong. Right? If it were all not true then why should this be true, or right? Or would it be better to be wrong and find out that being wrong is right, if being right ends up to be wrong. Or perhaps neither wrong nor right are either wrong or right and something completely different is well, something completely different. Hmmm.

Perhaps you could repeat the question.

When do the prizes get delivered? No - wait. That's just it isn't it? There don't need to be prizes, playing is it's own reward. Let me amend that, into different words...

Hope that makes sense, it's kinda long.

[Steve Lortz]

When I give a dog pills, sometimes I have to wrap them up in a bit of cheese so that the dog will gulp them down and not spit the pills back out before it swallows.

Wierwille PREACHED a lot of things that were true, in order to get us to swallow the errors that he PRACTICED and TAUGHT.

The only way to know what was true and what wasn't is to go back and study the Bible for yourself. That is, if you accept the Bible as a standard for truth, which is NOT intuitively obvious.

Love,

Steve

[Twinky]

I dunno, I read some Biblical principle, think about it, think about how it might play out in real life, try it out for myself (as Steve says, it's not necessarily intuitive) ... and I find a better result than going about (whatever) in my own bumbling way.

When it "works" enough times, one might well form the opinion that even the bits that can't be tested out also "work".

Even if it were all (and only) about just living this earthly life better, wouldn't it be worth it anyway?

If VPW, LCM et al were all wrong - it's still each individual's personal responsibility to do the best they can with what they know.

Sooner or later, the buck stops with each individual.

There's no hiding behind VPW, LCM, etc indefinitely.

Each of us can find out if it's true by reading, engaging brain, and DOING the best we can.

God is just a little bigger than VPW, LCM etc and can show us where we were wrongly taught and show us better ways.

"You can't go beyond what you've been taught" - said VPW.

Well - how about being taught by that holy spirit within us - the Helper - with infinitely more wisdom than a puny fraudster? And with genuine care and concern, not with a view to what can be extracted at some later stage?

And without even a "Christians Should Be Prosperous" booklet in sight?

Heck, if you try enough you can even forgive those fraudsters at TWI.

Doesn't mean you want to spend any more time with them.

Nor that they will escape their merited punishment / lack of rewards, when it comes to dishing out the eternal benefits. That's God's privilege - to dish out as He sees fit.

[geisha779]

Da vicster's claim of eternal salvation and all. You know, incorruptible seed.. in his terms. going to heaven, and all hell can't stop one from going.. can't sin out the holy seed, etc. Saved, purely by grace. Works need not to apply (or interfere).

What if he was just plain WRONG?

I mean. This doctrine was promulgated by one who for lack of better words..

if it's all wrong, by the conduct of his life, he doesn't stand a snowball in hell's chance before St. Peter..

so we have an egotistical, self-serving, abrasive, alcoholic who drugged and raped women one one hand, and on his better days only seduced them.. along with the plagiarism, outright lying and fabrication, and PRETENDING to be a "man of gawd"..

yep, he's "saved" by the wave of a magic wand. Hallelujah..

It was supposed to be a "research ministry". Just seems so many of the "results" weighed in on his favor..

Well, he was wrong. But, just because he perverted the meaning of grace that doesn't mean that grace doesn't abound. Does it? Did VP have that kind of authority? The sin or twisting of scripture in VP's life is his responsibility before God. He denied the Lord but, that doesn't have to translate into my denying the Lord. VP's rendition of faith has very little bearing on my life unless I allow it to......and I really believe the answers to the questions you pose can be found right there in the scriptures. It lays out a genuine and a counterfeit....I imagine you can guess where I land in that debate. VP was a fraud.....God isn't. God isn't mocked and He isn't fooled. My thoughts anyway...a perversion of biblical truths doesn't negate the truth it negates the one telling the lies.

[Ham]

I was thinking along the lines that he was BETTING on grace miraculously saving him from.. whatever.

Do you live that way? No, I know you don't.. neither do I..

sometimes.. I think "Grace" reserves the right to pull in the welcome mat..

[Ham]

Like an old "stowry"..

A rich man died.. lived a life satisfying himself with riches and modern conveniences.. exotic comforts while his employees slaved away for less than minimum wage. He bought several churches and orphanages, had them torn down and turned into parking lots..

so he appears before st. Peter on the day of his death. Peter says.. I've never seen a case like this.. he hasn't done one good thing for anybody..

Peter's assistant, reading the scrolls says.. "You missed one here. He once gave a dollar to some poor schlep.."

Peter says to the assistant.. "give him the dollar back.."