Yeah. Back in the 80s I worked part time at a Target store. It was a Saturday. Busy morning. The system was...each department had a dept. head, a 40 hour regular, and the rest of us were part time. On this particular day, the 40 hour regular was in charge. By this time I'd worked there for awhile so the others knew I was a "Jesus freak" but thought I was OK. The 40 hour regular was not feeling well that day. He was preoccupied by having to do much work...setting up endcaps and other promotions. Whenever I was with him, five minutes wouldn't go by without him vocalizing how bad he felt. Said his stomach hurt.
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds. He says that's it? I said yes. He goes his way and we separate. Five minutes later he walks up to me excited saying he felt much better. Wanted to know what I was into. Talk about witnessing with consent!
He said he was Catholic and that his mom made a good impression on him about faith stuff. Never came to a fellowship, but overall it left a good taste in my mouth. As for ministering one on one to another wayfer, I don't recall anything out in public; only at fellowship.
Yeah. Back in the 80s I worked part time at a Target store. It was a Saturday. Busy morning. The system was...each department had a dept. head, a 40 hour regular, and the rest of us were part time. On this particular day, the 40 hour regular was in charge. By this time I'd worked there for awhile so the others knew I was a "Jesus freak" but thought I was OK. The 40 hour regular was not feeling well that day. He was preoccupied by having to do much work...setting up endcaps and other promotions. Whenever I was with him, five minutes wouldn't go by without him vocalizing how bad he felt. Said his stomach hurt.
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds. He says that's it? I said yes. He goes his way and we separate. Five minutes later he walks up to me excited saying he felt much better. Wanted to know what I was into. Talk about witnessing with consent!
He said he was Catholic and that his mom made a good impression on him about faith stuff. Never came to a fellowship, but overall it left a good taste in my mouth. As for ministering one on one to another wayfer, I don't recall anything out in public; only at fellowship.
A) I like this. It works on a number of levels without adding anything useless. I think even
George Mueller would have liked this.
B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning
of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet"
because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person.
During my time in the way international I know of not one healing from a major problem by being ministred to. I know of lots of examples where people were ministered to and did not get better until after a lengthy hospital stay. Of course TWI got the glory for the person recovering. I have lengthy personal experience as well. I applied, very dilligently, the way international's formulas for healing for several years and NEVER had any results when ministrting to other people. Some of the folks spent weeks "preparing themselves" to receive. Strange Jesus never sent people on a study assignment before healing them, anywho.
When I spent two years seeking help for my child's chronic health problem I was told I would receive when I was ready to receive. Problem was I couldn't have been more ready. So it was a case of blame the victim for the problem not being alleviated through the way international's false doctrines (law of believeing, etc.)
And, it was all supposed to be done by revelation. (word of knowledge/word of wisdom/discerning of spirits) First, you were supposed to ask God if it was O.K. to minister or if you should just pray. Then, you were supposed to ask God if it was O.K. to lay hands on them. (in case there were devil spirits present) Then, the Christ in you (His eyes behind your eyes/His ears behind your ears/etc.) was supposed to divulge to you, via your five senses, what the problem was and whether to minister to it. So, automatically, it set you up as being a person who operated revelation (a much heralded skill in WayWorld)
I'm here to tell you, a whole lot of people got cured of maladies they never had in the first place.
And, there was always the blanket bailout there as a default of sorts...."Father, I just thank you that the whole body functions perfectly, as it should, each part in unison with the others."....or some such cop-out.
And, it was all supposed to be done by revelation.
Shortly before I bailed (probably a long established practice that I just got around to noticing) there was a corps meeting where the teacher recounted a personal incident where a person fell very ill while living in founders hall. The person's husband went to her cabinet "overseer" for help (a.k.a corps meeting teacher.) The cabinet dude layed his hands on her and spoke in tongues for this person problems to be removed, etc. Shortly afterwards the sick person was carted off to the hospital where they spent a little time and received proper medical attention. I was appalled at the teaching because the way international teaches about gifts of healing, and how each manifestation has it's own purpose. You know, the advanced class 101?!? So now they throw Wierwille's formulas right out the window and replace them with "just S.I.T much for the situation."
Point being they seem to have acknowledged that their own teachings are wrong and come up with the wonder manifestation of speaking in tongues. The one size fits all manifestation, no revelation needed.
I have had a few situations that have involved healing. Some predate TWI, a few in, and one after. I've seen a broken bone set and healing extremely accelerated, a woman recover from a stroke and the effects nullified, a bad flu sickness where the cause/virus was removed and recovery happened over 4 days the body recovering itself. A few others, nothing of extreme notability. This stuff is nowhere near everyday, but spread out a lot over time.
When people would ask me "will you minister to me?" I would just pray for them out loud. The times I experienced real healing in the process I kind of felt like the person would have got what they were seeking whether I was involved in the process or not - me being there was kind of secondary - it was mostly a person and God thing between them. Most of the time people asked that though it was just a religious phrase, nothing behind it at all.
So I believe it happens, God is involved. I don't confess to know all the elements involved, and I certainly have stuff I take medicine for in the genetic and long term physical ailment category so I am no expert on the process or example of personal healing. I've had another genetic weakness that has gotten better through nothing but hard work, good diet, and proper exercise. If I'd neglect the three or one of the three it gets worse again.
What's tough about all this is you think if God does heal, what about my situation? Does God randomly grant requests? Am I not good enough for healing? And the comparison stuff too - why the other guy but not me? Or the other way around? All I know is God is good and there is no formula there. I have no better answer than the standard Catholic one - "just have faith my son".
I guess if God cured every sniffly nose immediately there would be no struggle in life. And sometimes to me the struggles help me appreciate things more and gain strength of character.
Shortly before I bailed (probably a long established practice that I just got around to noticing) there was a corps meeting where the teacher recounted a personal incident where a person fell very ill while living in founders hall. The person's husband went to her cabinet "overseer" for help (a.k.a corps meeting teacher.) The cabinet dude layed his hands on her and spoke in tongues for this person problems to be removed, etc. Shortly afterwards the sick person was carted off to the hospital where they spent a little time and received proper medical attention. I was appalled at the teaching because the way international teaches about gifts of healing, and how each manifestation has it's own purpose. You know, the advanced class 101?!? So now they throw Wierwille's formulas right out the window and replace them with "just S.I.T much for the situation."
Dude, that place is so spiritually dead nothing genuine has happened there for years. IF anyone got healed there it would be more of a "Leap of Faith" Steve Martin movie type of thing where a kid walks off his crutches in the middle of the false prophets selling aluminum siding and collecting money for words. And it wouldn't surprise me if God would just hold off from that until they were off grounds to make a point. That place is like the fig tree Jesus cursed. You won't see anything happening there again.
You know most medical doctors who really care about their patients have more healing in their little fingers than those pompous jackwagon Pharisees have in their whole bodies.
A movement that started in Coleraine (Ireland) - coming out of Vineyard - and now operating in many cities in the UK. Christians from different churches in an area get out there in the streets (in my city, outside the Abbey) - set up a few chairs for the people to be prayed for to sit in, and have a team of about 1/2 doz people - they pray two by two and those who are not praying invite passers-by to seek healing. It's done in public, but there's nothing showy about it. Just people sitting together.
What is interesting is that most of the healings reported (and there are many) are accepted by non-Christians. People professing Christian faith - for whatever reason don't seem to get or at least acknowledge the healing that has been given.
As an outward manifestation of God's power, it's getting people talking! They say, "I suffered from a bad back/ leg/ severe headaches/ etc for years and now it's gone. How did you do that??"
I think at "lower levels" of TWI there were some genuine healings. Because there was more genuine heart to please God.
As one grew more "advanced" it became more formulaic and that's when the "blame the victim" mentality stuff got in.
Also, some people (seeking healing) just didn't bother to take personal responsibility for what they did (like stuff their faces with food then get severe indigestion) thinking they had a "get out of jail free" card - get somebody to pray for them. It doesn't work like that. That's abuse ... like saying you can't sin just because you're born again...
You can sleep with whomever you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences.
You can abuse your body however you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences.
You can willfully fail to do the necessary in any aspect of life and expect God to cover you - NO, there are still consequences.
My point in all of my ramblings is that I believe that God heals and Jesus healed, and still heals. There are clear accounts in the Bible of Paul and others healing and performing miracles. Therefore, I believe these records are true. I have no doubt that miracles occur present day and that God is the one making them happen and that he loves people regardless of their faith.
However, the way international's religious, formulaic teachings do not command or bring healing of themselves. My opinion is the occasional account of someone being healed in the way international is something God wrought in spite of the way international's false doctrines and pharisaic leadership. Wierwille's law of believing is false and leads to disappointment with the victim being blamed for not believing big enough. Wierwille's leaven teaches people to goto God with a demanding attitude to claim what is rightfully theirs. That in itself is messed up because God resists the proud. I could continue, but I wanted to make it clear that I believe God and Christ are true and the line of demarcation separates the false prophet / false teaching side of things. Sadly, this is where my personal experiences lie. I post my experiences here at GSC hoping others will read them and run like h3ll from the way international.
Yeah. Back in the 80s I worked part time at a Target store. It was a Saturday. Busy morning. The system was...each department had a dept. head, a 40 hour regular, and the rest of us were part time. On this particular day, the 40 hour regular was in charge. By this time I'd worked there for awhile so the others knew I was a "Jesus freak" but thought I was OK. The 40 hour regular was not feeling well that day. He was preoccupied by having to do much work...setting up endcaps and other promotions. Whenever I was with him, five minutes wouldn't go by without him vocalizing how bad he felt. Said his stomach hurt.
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds. He says that's it? I said yes. He goes his way and we separate. Five minutes later he walks up to me excited saying he felt much better. Wanted to know what I was into. Talk about witnessing with consent!
He said he was Catholic and that his mom made a good impression on him about faith stuff. Never came to a fellowship, but overall it left a good taste in my mouth. As for ministering one on one to another wayfer, I don't recall anything out in public; only at fellowship.
Great story Johniam. I've had a few similar experiences and one major healing received.
When I was working in radio sales, I had a coworker--the receptionist-- with an extreme earache. I asked her if she'd like me to pray for her and, of course, she was hesitant but accepted. I took her into a side office and ministered to her and she was immediately healed, and a bit confused.
During the same period, I went to visit a client and he had a scratched cornea. He was in so much pain that he couldn't carry on our meeting, so I offered to pray for him. He accepted and he wasn't immediately healed, so I told him a little about believing and maintaining a positive confession and left. He went back to the eye doctor that day or the next and the scratch was gone. He told me elatedly the next time I came in that his doctor said he'd never seen a scratched cornea heal that quickly.
I've recounted this before here, so here's the quick summary. I had sudden onset asthma throughout my childhood. Attacks would last days at a time during which all I could do was lie in bed and struggle for air. I had one during when I went home from college to Wheeling, WV for my Christmas break in 1982. My girlfriend/fiancee who had pushed me into PFAL was a W.O.w. in Cleveland that year. After my visit to Wheeling, I went to see her in Cleveland. The first day there I woke with an ashtma attack. She ministered to me and, in a matter of seconds, the attack went away and I've never had another one. That, in my opinion, is a major and miraculous case of healing.
Now as to the process, VP tried to make everything fit into his empirical box of "mathematical exactness and scientific precision." I think that's why he taught that you're supposed to ask for revelation first and added all those steps. Sixteen keys to walking by the spirit"? Get real! What about walking in love and looking for ways to bless people?
Anyway, I believe that the way it works is mostly by inspiration. God inspires you to offer healing when He knows that person will receive it. He inspires what you say and do and how you say and do it. Because He knows what that person needs to hear in order to trigger faith, relax them, or just eliminate their self consciousness.
Here's an example. When I was a WOW in Houston, one of our fellowship members had some kind of stomach ailment after twig and she asked me to minister to her. I started to pray for her and was inspired to do some really silly things. I put my hand on her forehead and pretended I was looking down into her stomach, used a kind of Foghorn Leghorn voice and told God it was all messed up down there. Anyway it was pretty goofy and certainly not in line with VP's process. But it worked and she felt better afterwards.
Sixteen keys to walking by the spirit"? Get real! What about walking in love and looking for ways to bless people?
Anyway, I believe that the way it works is mostly by inspiration. God inspires you to offer healing when He knows that person will receive it. He inspires what you say and do and how you say and do it. Because He knows what that person needs to hear in order to trigger faith, relax them, or just eliminate their self consciousness.
jb.....absolutely!
I've shared this story before, so I'll keep it short. While door-to-door witnessing as a wow ambassador in Syracuse, NY
the two of us were invited into an elderly woman's home. Of course, I shared about the truths of the scriptures and that
our ministry was trying to help others understand the Bible. Her husband joined to listen as well.
After about eight minutes of sharing, I proceeded down the tangent of healing....and the woman admitted that she couldn't
see clearly to read her Bible. She had cataracts and saw opaque blurs. And, I simply said...."Would you like me to pray
for you?" To this, she responded, "yes." So, as I stood next to her, I simply motioned for all four of us to join together
and hold hands while I prayed.
A simple heart-filled prayer by claiming the truths of God's healing power thru Jesus Christ that probably lasted about
90 seconds.....and the elderly woman opened her eyes. Immediately, she began crying and saying that she could see clearly!
She exclaimed that her cataracts were gone!! She looked at the Bible on the coffee table, picked it up and cried even more.
Her husband started crying and then, I started crying. We hugged and thanked God.......and after about five more minutes,
we left and shared this testimony with others. What a day!
I was ministered to by a horse...sort of by "laying on of hooves"
Before being involved with TWI I was shot in the foot with a small handgun being shown to me by a careless friend. The bullet cracked one toe, which healed a bit crooked. This caused the toe to rub on the adjacent one, and often caused a painful sore unless I padded it with a bandaid. (Have you ever tried to keep a bandaid on a sweaty toe?) This was a constant irritation for some 10 years or so.
Then in the early 80s, I went up to Gunnison to help with a rodeo. I needed to ask R* a question, while she was perched on her barrel horse getting ready to led the Grand Entry Parade. As we were talking, someone opened the gate to the arena, and her horse, ever at the ready to run the barrels, reared up to turn and bolt through the gate. R* pulled back on him and he came down hard, you guessed it, right smack on my foot, The same toe as before.
It hurt terribly, and I limped around for several days with that same painful toe until it finally got better. It has now been over 30 years and I have never again had a sore on that toe. Praise be to "Snippy" who held my toe in the hollow of his hooves that day.
There were people who would come to the weekly branch meeting with the same laundry list of minor ailments, week after week after week. It got to where I hoped they didn't ask me to minister to them because I didn't want to be associated with their failure to receive.
There were people who would come to the weekly branch meeting with the same laundry list of minor ailments, week after week after week. It got to where I hoped they didn't ask me to minister to them because I didn't want to be associated with their failure to receive.
You know, I think that this type of thing is an indicator. A lot of the people who remain in TWI are those who do not want to think for themselves and want someone else to make decisions for them and carry some of the responsibility for their lives. Freedom is a double-edged sword. You don't have anyone else's hand in your life dictating what to do, but you also don't have anyone else to blame for decisions. For the thinking, hard working, and resposible this is a very worthwhile tradeoff and one that they would not trade for giving up control of their lives to some other person or group whose motives are dubious at best. However, it is much easier to be a sheep and listen for the bleats of the fellow sheep and guidance of another to live life.
You know, I think that this type of thing is an indicator. A lot of the people who remain in TWI are those who do not want to think for themselves and want someone else to make decisions for them and carry some of the responsibility for their lives. Freedom is a double-edged sword. You don't have anyone else's hand in your life dictating what to do, but you also don't have anyone else to blame for decisions. For the thinking, hard working, and resposible this is a very worthwhile tradeoff and one that they would not trade for giving up control of their lives to some other person or group whose motives are dubious at best. However, it is much easier to be a sheep and listen for the bleats of the fellow sheep and guidance of another to live life.
So true, so true.....the dependency lifestyle is sad, really.
Back in the early '90s, an elderly man and long-standing follower asked me, "Why are all the good people
leaving twi?" Knowing this man's business background, I knew what he meant......the solid, independent,
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds
quote: B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning
of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet"
because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person.
I think VP was talking about the laying on of hands. Just as a matter of etiquette, it seems like these days there are many situations where you want to be real careful about putting your hands on other people, devil spirit or not. I didn't lay my hands on the guy, just prayed for him.
I think VP was talking about the laying on of hands. Just as a matter of etiquette, it seems like these days there are many situations where you want to be real careful about putting your hands on other people, devil spirit or not. I didn't lay my hands on the guy, just prayed for him.
Pffft...Vp and his etiquette. He didn't have any problem laying his hands on other women besides his wife. Tell me, was that good or bad etiquette?
No, I was. It was an aside. But the part about somebody turning white as a sheet was definitely laying on of hands, not just praying for someone.
As for what you said on the first post, I remember Pat Lynn once admitting that she once felt not too spiritual at some meeting and she was leading the meeting and at the end she asked if anyone needed to be ministered to, figuring that she could have the AC grads in the room do the ministering. But everybody in the meeting wanted to be prayed for (18 people) so she said she did it and it went well. But yeah, it feels awkward if someone wants you to pray for them and you don't feel inspired.
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johniam
Yeah. Back in the 80s I worked part time at a Target store. It was a Saturday. Busy morning. The system was...each department had a dept. head, a 40 hour regular, and the rest of us were part time. On this particular day, the 40 hour regular was in charge. By this time I'd worked there for awhile so the others knew I was a "Jesus freak" but thought I was OK. The 40 hour regular was not feeling well that day. He was preoccupied by having to do much work...setting up endcaps and other promotions. Whenever I was with him, five minutes wouldn't go by without him vocalizing how bad he felt. Said his stomach hurt.
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds. He says that's it? I said yes. He goes his way and we separate. Five minutes later he walks up to me excited saying he felt much better. Wanted to know what I was into. Talk about witnessing with consent!
He said he was Catholic and that his mom made a good impression on him about faith stuff. Never came to a fellowship, but overall it left a good taste in my mouth. As for ministering one on one to another wayfer, I don't recall anything out in public; only at fellowship.
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WordWolf
A) I like this. It works on a number of levels without adding anything useless. I think even
George Mueller would have liked this.
B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning
of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet"
because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person.
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OldSkool
During my time in the way international I know of not one healing from a major problem by being ministred to. I know of lots of examples where people were ministered to and did not get better until after a lengthy hospital stay. Of course TWI got the glory for the person recovering. I have lengthy personal experience as well. I applied, very dilligently, the way international's formulas for healing for several years and NEVER had any results when ministrting to other people. Some of the folks spent weeks "preparing themselves" to receive. Strange Jesus never sent people on a study assignment before healing them, anywho.
When I spent two years seeking help for my child's chronic health problem I was told I would receive when I was ready to receive. Problem was I couldn't have been more ready. So it was a case of blame the victim for the problem not being alleviated through the way international's false doctrines (law of believeing, etc.)
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waysider
One time this guy ministered to me and cast out gall stones. I told him I didn't have gall stones. He said, "Of course not, I just cast them out."
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OldSkool
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waysider
And, it was all supposed to be done by revelation. (word of knowledge/word of wisdom/discerning of spirits) First, you were supposed to ask God if it was O.K. to minister or if you should just pray. Then, you were supposed to ask God if it was O.K. to lay hands on them. (in case there were devil spirits present) Then, the Christ in you (His eyes behind your eyes/His ears behind your ears/etc.) was supposed to divulge to you, via your five senses, what the problem was and whether to minister to it. So, automatically, it set you up as being a person who operated revelation (a much heralded skill in WayWorld)
I'm here to tell you, a whole lot of people got cured of maladies they never had in the first place.
And, there was always the blanket bailout there as a default of sorts...."Father, I just thank you that the whole body functions perfectly, as it should, each part in unison with the others."....or some such cop-out.
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OldSkool
Shortly before I bailed (probably a long established practice that I just got around to noticing) there was a corps meeting where the teacher recounted a personal incident where a person fell very ill while living in founders hall. The person's husband went to her cabinet "overseer" for help (a.k.a corps meeting teacher.) The cabinet dude layed his hands on her and spoke in tongues for this person problems to be removed, etc. Shortly afterwards the sick person was carted off to the hospital where they spent a little time and received proper medical attention. I was appalled at the teaching because the way international teaches about gifts of healing, and how each manifestation has it's own purpose. You know, the advanced class 101?!? So now they throw Wierwille's formulas right out the window and replace them with "just S.I.T much for the situation."
Point being they seem to have acknowledged that their own teachings are wrong and come up with the wonder manifestation of speaking in tongues. The one size fits all manifestation, no revelation needed.
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chockfull
I have had a few situations that have involved healing. Some predate TWI, a few in, and one after. I've seen a broken bone set and healing extremely accelerated, a woman recover from a stroke and the effects nullified, a bad flu sickness where the cause/virus was removed and recovery happened over 4 days the body recovering itself. A few others, nothing of extreme notability. This stuff is nowhere near everyday, but spread out a lot over time.
When people would ask me "will you minister to me?" I would just pray for them out loud. The times I experienced real healing in the process I kind of felt like the person would have got what they were seeking whether I was involved in the process or not - me being there was kind of secondary - it was mostly a person and God thing between them. Most of the time people asked that though it was just a religious phrase, nothing behind it at all.
So I believe it happens, God is involved. I don't confess to know all the elements involved, and I certainly have stuff I take medicine for in the genetic and long term physical ailment category so I am no expert on the process or example of personal healing. I've had another genetic weakness that has gotten better through nothing but hard work, good diet, and proper exercise. If I'd neglect the three or one of the three it gets worse again.
What's tough about all this is you think if God does heal, what about my situation? Does God randomly grant requests? Am I not good enough for healing? And the comparison stuff too - why the other guy but not me? Or the other way around? All I know is God is good and there is no formula there. I have no better answer than the standard Catholic one - "just have faith my son".
I guess if God cured every sniffly nose immediately there would be no struggle in life. And sometimes to me the struggles help me appreciate things more and gain strength of character.
Just a few one line stories and opinions here.
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chockfull
Dude, that place is so spiritually dead nothing genuine has happened there for years. IF anyone got healed there it would be more of a "Leap of Faith" Steve Martin movie type of thing where a kid walks off his crutches in the middle of the false prophets selling aluminum siding and collecting money for words. And it wouldn't surprise me if God would just hold off from that until they were off grounds to make a point. That place is like the fig tree Jesus cursed. You won't see anything happening there again.
You know most medical doctors who really care about their patients have more healing in their little fingers than those pompous jackwagon Pharisees have in their whole bodies.
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Twinky
Has this hit your area yet? Healing on the Streets
A movement that started in Coleraine (Ireland) - coming out of Vineyard - and now operating in many cities in the UK. Christians from different churches in an area get out there in the streets (in my city, outside the Abbey) - set up a few chairs for the people to be prayed for to sit in, and have a team of about 1/2 doz people - they pray two by two and those who are not praying invite passers-by to seek healing. It's done in public, but there's nothing showy about it. Just people sitting together.
What is interesting is that most of the healings reported (and there are many) are accepted by non-Christians. People professing Christian faith - for whatever reason don't seem to get or at least acknowledge the healing that has been given.
As an outward manifestation of God's power, it's getting people talking! They say, "I suffered from a bad back/ leg/ severe headaches/ etc for years and now it's gone. How did you do that??"
I think at "lower levels" of TWI there were some genuine healings. Because there was more genuine heart to please God.
As one grew more "advanced" it became more formulaic and that's when the "blame the victim" mentality stuff got in.
Also, some people (seeking healing) just didn't bother to take personal responsibility for what they did (like stuff their faces with food then get severe indigestion) thinking they had a "get out of jail free" card - get somebody to pray for them. It doesn't work like that. That's abuse ... like saying you can't sin just because you're born again...
You can sleep with whomever you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences.
You can abuse your body however you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences.
You can willfully fail to do the necessary in any aspect of life and expect God to cover you - NO, there are still consequences.
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OldSkool
My point in all of my ramblings is that I believe that God heals and Jesus healed, and still heals. There are clear accounts in the Bible of Paul and others healing and performing miracles. Therefore, I believe these records are true. I have no doubt that miracles occur present day and that God is the one making them happen and that he loves people regardless of their faith.
However, the way international's religious, formulaic teachings do not command or bring healing of themselves. My opinion is the occasional account of someone being healed in the way international is something God wrought in spite of the way international's false doctrines and pharisaic leadership. Wierwille's law of believing is false and leads to disappointment with the victim being blamed for not believing big enough. Wierwille's leaven teaches people to goto God with a demanding attitude to claim what is rightfully theirs. That in itself is messed up because God resists the proud. I could continue, but I wanted to make it clear that I believe God and Christ are true and the line of demarcation separates the false prophet / false teaching side of things. Sadly, this is where my personal experiences lie. I post my experiences here at GSC hoping others will read them and run like h3ll from the way international.
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Jbarrax
Great story Johniam. I've had a few similar experiences and one major healing received.
When I was working in radio sales, I had a coworker--the receptionist-- with an extreme earache. I asked her if she'd like me to pray for her and, of course, she was hesitant but accepted. I took her into a side office and ministered to her and she was immediately healed, and a bit confused.
During the same period, I went to visit a client and he had a scratched cornea. He was in so much pain that he couldn't carry on our meeting, so I offered to pray for him. He accepted and he wasn't immediately healed, so I told him a little about believing and maintaining a positive confession and left. He went back to the eye doctor that day or the next and the scratch was gone. He told me elatedly the next time I came in that his doctor said he'd never seen a scratched cornea heal that quickly.
I've recounted this before here, so here's the quick summary. I had sudden onset asthma throughout my childhood. Attacks would last days at a time during which all I could do was lie in bed and struggle for air. I had one during when I went home from college to Wheeling, WV for my Christmas break in 1982. My girlfriend/fiancee who had pushed me into PFAL was a W.O.w. in Cleveland that year. After my visit to Wheeling, I went to see her in Cleveland. The first day there I woke with an ashtma attack. She ministered to me and, in a matter of seconds, the attack went away and I've never had another one. That, in my opinion, is a major and miraculous case of healing.
Now as to the process, VP tried to make everything fit into his empirical box of "mathematical exactness and scientific precision." I think that's why he taught that you're supposed to ask for revelation first and added all those steps. Sixteen keys to walking by the spirit"? Get real! What about walking in love and looking for ways to bless people?
Anyway, I believe that the way it works is mostly by inspiration. God inspires you to offer healing when He knows that person will receive it. He inspires what you say and do and how you say and do it. Because He knows what that person needs to hear in order to trigger faith, relax them, or just eliminate their self consciousness.
Here's an example. When I was a WOW in Houston, one of our fellowship members had some kind of stomach ailment after twig and she asked me to minister to her. I started to pray for her and was inspired to do some really silly things. I put my hand on her forehead and pretended I was looking down into her stomach, used a kind of Foghorn Leghorn voice and told God it was all messed up down there. Anyway it was pretty goofy and certainly not in line with VP's process. But it worked and she felt better afterwards.
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skyrider
jb.....absolutely!
I've shared this story before, so I'll keep it short. While door-to-door witnessing as a wow ambassador in Syracuse, NY
the two of us were invited into an elderly woman's home. Of course, I shared about the truths of the scriptures and that
our ministry was trying to help others understand the Bible. Her husband joined to listen as well.
After about eight minutes of sharing, I proceeded down the tangent of healing....and the woman admitted that she couldn't
see clearly to read her Bible. She had cataracts and saw opaque blurs. And, I simply said...."Would you like me to pray
for you?" To this, she responded, "yes." So, as I stood next to her, I simply motioned for all four of us to join together
and hold hands while I prayed.
A simple heart-filled prayer by claiming the truths of God's healing power thru Jesus Christ that probably lasted about
90 seconds.....and the elderly woman opened her eyes. Immediately, she began crying and saying that she could see clearly!
She exclaimed that her cataracts were gone!! She looked at the Bible on the coffee table, picked it up and cried even more.
Her husband started crying and then, I started crying. We hugged and thanked God.......and after about five more minutes,
we left and shared this testimony with others. What a day!
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HAPe4me
I was ministered to by a horse...sort of by "laying on of hooves"
Before being involved with TWI I was shot in the foot with a small handgun being shown to me by a careless friend. The bullet cracked one toe, which healed a bit crooked. This caused the toe to rub on the adjacent one, and often caused a painful sore unless I padded it with a bandaid. (Have you ever tried to keep a bandaid on a sweaty toe?) This was a constant irritation for some 10 years or so.
Then in the early 80s, I went up to Gunnison to help with a rodeo. I needed to ask R* a question, while she was perched on her barrel horse getting ready to led the Grand Entry Parade. As we were talking, someone opened the gate to the arena, and her horse, ever at the ready to run the barrels, reared up to turn and bolt through the gate. R* pulled back on him and he came down hard, you guessed it, right smack on my foot, The same toe as before.
It hurt terribly, and I limped around for several days with that same painful toe until it finally got better. It has now been over 30 years and I have never again had a sore on that toe. Praise be to "Snippy" who held my toe in the hollow of his hooves that day.
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waysider
"laying on of hooves"
SNORT!!
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waysider
There were people who would come to the weekly branch meeting with the same laundry list of minor ailments, week after week after week. It got to where I hoped they didn't ask me to minister to them because I didn't want to be associated with their failure to receive.
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chockfull
You know, I think that this type of thing is an indicator. A lot of the people who remain in TWI are those who do not want to think for themselves and want someone else to make decisions for them and carry some of the responsibility for their lives. Freedom is a double-edged sword. You don't have anyone else's hand in your life dictating what to do, but you also don't have anyone else to blame for decisions. For the thinking, hard working, and resposible this is a very worthwhile tradeoff and one that they would not trade for giving up control of their lives to some other person or group whose motives are dubious at best. However, it is much easier to be a sheep and listen for the bleats of the fellow sheep and guidance of another to live life.
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skyrider
So true, so true.....the dependency lifestyle is sad, really.
Back in the early '90s, an elderly man and long-standing follower asked me, "Why are all the good people
leaving twi?" Knowing this man's business background, I knew what he meant......the solid, independent,
prosperous believers were leaving twi.
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johniam
quote:
So I finally asked him 3 questions: Do you believe in God? He said yes. Do you believe in healing? He said yes. Would you like me to pray for you? Mind you, we're on the floor and it's kind of busy, so this time he hesitates, shrugs smiling, and says, sure why not. So I prayed for him. Took about 10 seconds
quote: B) vpw would have reproved you. He was rather specific that you would HAVE TO "operate discerning
of spirits" FIRST- and used his supposed experience where the minister was "white as a sheet"
because the spirit smacked him when he tried to minister to the other person.
I think VP was talking about the laying on of hands. Just as a matter of etiquette, it seems like these days there are many situations where you want to be real careful about putting your hands on other people, devil spirit or not. I didn't lay my hands on the guy, just prayed for him.
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OldSkool
Pffft...Vp and his etiquette. He didn't have any problem laying his hands on other women besides his wife. Tell me, was that good or bad etiquette?
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Jbarrax
Off topic.
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waysider
Wierwille wasn't talking about etiquette.
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johniam
No, I was. It was an aside. But the part about somebody turning white as a sheet was definitely laying on of hands, not just praying for someone.
As for what you said on the first post, I remember Pat Lynn once admitting that she once felt not too spiritual at some meeting and she was leading the meeting and at the end she asked if anyone needed to be ministered to, figuring that she could have the AC grads in the room do the ministering. But everybody in the meeting wanted to be prayed for (18 people) so she said she did it and it went well. But yeah, it feels awkward if someone wants you to pray for them and you don't feel inspired.
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excathedra
no
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