Personally most of the things he puts out these days isn't worth much, IMHO.. His only worthwhile books were his early ones.. Rethinking the wineskins, the original Pagan Christianity (not co-authored), Who is your covering... Those are pretty decent.. The latest groups of books, Reimagining Church, How to start a ? church, the newer Pagan Christianity, etc, etc.. are more watered down..
Course, with the early books, you have to ignore most his ramblings about Apostles. That was when he was being mentored by Edwards in his cult group, and they had a very slanted view of one. It also was the cause of much devastation in the Edwards group, and specifically Viola's handling of a few home churches he "helped" spoil. Would make ol' VP proud, redefining terms and all to set yourself up as some MOG.
But once Viola started to become a celebrity outside of Edwards group, and even within, he did much like ol Vic did, some power plays here and there, and soon, he left ol' Edwards and was given helm of a larger house church movement that usurped some of the Edwards group. Then Viola started a rewrite of his earlier books with more "politically correct" terminology, removing many of his views. Some good (like the apostolic junk) but others just to help solidify his celebrity position.
I also had bought Gene Edwards book on organic church, and read articles by Neil Cole about simple church. Some meetings are hymn/praise sings where people chose hymns and praise songs from hymnals or DVD's from Integrity's IWorship with lyrics are used, or someone composes new songs, or Cd's from Marty Haugen, David Haas, Handt Hanson, Lutheran Songs Today(Dakota, Johnathan Rudulman). Some chose to omit music altogether if everyone agrees to that, going into free spontaneous prayer concerns. some people share joys and blessings maybe based on scripture. Other times may have Bible Study on Acts or some epistle, or even(gasp)the gospels. Some House/Home churches do glossalia/speaking in tongues with same person interpreting or some one else. It can be perfect praise and adoration to God and Jesus Christ( most are trinitarians), or prayers about situations/conditions/circumstances unknown to the small group, or like prophecy may be God speaking words of comfort/consolation/ encouragement/exhortation/edification, more like a spiritual hug or embrace by God/Jesus when one or more are hurting. Not all house/home churches do spiritual gifts/manifestations/activations. there is no money offering/tithes/abundant sharing because there is no budget and no one is salaried for full time ministry work(all receive income from secular jobs). Some celebrate Holy Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist with a normal meal daily or weekly or monthly or quaterly/semester or once a year, while others divorce this with bread and wine/graper juice only. btw, the Agape meal or Lovefeast really is more like a potluck supper or picnic on the grounds, or simply snacks and refreshments, unlike the Moravian tradition which includes coffee/hot chocolate/spiced tea and some bakery good like Moravian mollasses sugar cookies or cinnamon buns/danish/coffee cake while hymns, choir anthems, instrumental music, prayers, and maybe scripture readings are occuring. Any futher discussion? final thought, during any bible study questions are encouraged(re: to house church).
that last statement is very important, Yes you can interupt the sermon/homily with questions by raising your hand or add comments during or immediately afterwards. Something Leonard, Wierwille, Geer, Martindale, and Hendricks oppossed and objected to, and sorry to say most denominational clergy would not allow(at least not during worship but maybe afterwards possibly in their study/office).
The concept of organic church is just like anything else organic, unspoiled by human hands. In his book, Frank Viola says that an Organic Church is not a theater with a script, but a lifestyle, an authentic journey with the Lord Jesus and His disciples. He also indicates that an Organic Church is born out of spiritual life, not constructed by human institutions and held together by religious programs.
Browsed a bit, that's about it. I sort of get what they're talking about, although the idea of a gathering of humans that's "unspoiled by human hands" seems a kind of quirky idea if not impossible. Human handling of any kind changes what it handles if we're talking about things that grow. If one chooses to eat the berries that grow on the bush in spring, drink their water as it flows from the ground and sup on the fish that swim into their arms, that an organic life lived would be. Anything else probably has some handling to get from the environment to the table.
But yeah, organic I guess meaning the source material feeding it is primarily spiritual with the least amount of added whatever, so it's organically grown from the best sources.
To johnj's point - my word for it long term would be "unwieldy". The organic thing sounds good on face value but to link another buzz word, "sustainability" .... how will it perform long term?
Saying that the church is a spiritual entity - I get that. Saying that the members of that entity exist as described in say, Ephesians - I get that. Saying that the best and primary way for those members to exist and function is in a small slice of that, I'm not so sure about that. A part of the greater whole, yes. But if I over emphasize the smaller slice I risk disconnecting from the larger whole. So at least the smaller slice would have to remain an active part of the larger whole, on some level.
Where I might agree, not sure if this is one of the intents of organic churching, is that the large, "corporate" gatherings as they're called don't serve all interests and needs as a total solution. And those larger churches, denominations inevitably will have some tradition, some form and function that may or may not be appropriate.
Same will go for the smaller home groups too though.
To be truly "organic" in today's society one has to disconnect from the social grid and network of services and go literally "off the grid". That may be good for some and for a time but long term? Not even necessarily healthy, IMO.
Same could go for this kind of thing.
A mix, rather than an either/or this/or that approach works for me and seems to be allow for maximum flexibility and function.
church (and secular) government, from hierarchical to democratic...
families, from patriarchal to matriarchal...
and any kind of human endeavor...
are only as good as the people who are in them.
So they range from good to horrible. The people make the thing good or bad, not the type of structure itself.
Because people sin and lack complete wisdom and love, we will always fall short and be frustrated. This is why we need grace in Jesus Christ.
Good point. I think I often expect things to deliver more than their capacity. Jesus and the 12 - a small number, worked well, but the critical component was Christ, less the relative size of the group. (although 12 had significance) I would have to assume from the gospels and Acts that there was the anticipation of large numbers coming. They're ability to perform was human, and human activities have flaws, they develop, go in fits and starts. Jesus made it clear, they will know us by "our love", not by our corporate perfections, org charts and snappy robes. Grace, forgiveness and enough love to stick together, with the message of Christ front and center, makes for a good start for all sizes.
The implication is there is no "ordained professional clergy" since all Christians are required to be that but with no salary/pay, no professional church musicians(well that knocks me out of any job/vocation/career)serving large organizations called "churches/denominations"(however band and/or chorus directors at high school or colege/university level that is secular is acceptable), budgets are forbidden and offerings are optional. Everyone is a servant evangelist doing soup kitchens, meals on wheels, Habitat for Humanity, helping at homeless shelters, etc. Social networking with other independent house churches but not being annexed by them. O, if churhes do proclaim heresies, then it does not become viral and other small groups may choose to reject them, reprimand them, or accept that group's theology is tolerated but not practiced in their gatherings. Jesus Christ is the only boss each human is responsible to. There is mutual subjection to one another on an equal basis. If problems do arise, then apostolic workers(mature adults) may visit and send written communications. BTW, not all in Corinth accepted Paul's ministry and some told him in person to drop dead and go to you know where, saying he had no authority to speak in God's name. Apostles may spend time with people but are only spiritual guidance counselors(elders or presbuteros) and that plurality or multiple people are necessary and all laity may consecrate communion, perform weddings(even if secular government opposses this), no sermons or homilies(boring dull speeches), and finally if it gets too big, split it. Hickory has about 75 thousand people and about 250 congregations denominationally. The proposed model for the city would be 10,000 private parishes averaging not more than 12 people per house permanently and to forbid numerical growth in each gathering. Viola, a former Assemblies of God, and Edwards, former Baptist pastor say this is the new paradigm and is mandatory by God's will. No Mars Hill Bible Church, no People's Temple, no Uniforcation, no Branch Davidian, no TWI, no JW, or any cult, because they violate the rule by absorbing other fellowships and wanted large numbers of people they could persuade or to put it simple smaller is always better. Jesus is Lord(Kurios) meaning boss man/ manager in which each person is responsible on an intimate basis and he alone has the final say so, whether we like his message or not. There is a balance between free will/choice and obedience by God's group think( not human coercion) through the working of the Holy Spirit, coming to an unaminous decision.
to respond to John Juddess, Viola says he is beyond evangelical, neither religious right fundamentalist not left wing libertine. Christ alone and only, an obsession spiritually. Everyone is equally submissive and subjected to each other, no leaders(all are leaders and "ordained") and all do the same thing spiritually as mentioned above. More of hands on training where everyone mentors/tutors everyone else, other words everyone is pastor/deacon/teacher/apostle/evangelist/missionary/bishop who are spiritually mature "elders" even if they are in their 20's, spiritual guidance counselors and advisors. Which would mean you and other clergy would be permanently defrocked and have to find a secular job/vocation/career for work but could continue with other laity to baptise, consecrate communion, and perform weddings(telling county clerk of court screw you) but would be stripped of "ordaination". Viola 's other books include Epic Jesus and Eternal Purpose. final word on this topic from me.
Viola has co-authored a book with Leonard Sweet called Jesus: A Theography. Viola is an extreme fanatical, obsessed Trinararian, way more than most. I am now reading Jon Zens and Howard Snyder.
The implication is there is no "ordained professional clergy" since all Christians are required to be that but with no salary/pay, no professional church musicians(well that knocks me out of any job/vocation/career)serving large organizations called "churches/denominations"(however band and/or chorus directors at high school or colege/university level that is secular is acceptable), budgets are forbidden and offerings are optional. Everyone is a servant evangelist doing soup kitchens, meals on wheels, Habitat for Humanity, helping at homeless shelters, etc.
I sometimes think that churches are an excuse for people not getting involved in such things - they leave it to others - and it can end up with just a few doing all the Christian "outreach" type of work.
Social networking with other independent house churches but not being annexed by them. O, if churches do proclaim heresies, then it does not become viral and other small groups may choose to reject them, reprimand them, or accept that group's theology is tolerated but not practiced in their gatherings. Jesus Christ is the only boss each human is responsible to. There is mutual subjection to one another on an equal basis. If problems do arise, then apostolic workers(mature adults) may visit and send written communications. BTW, not all in Corinth accepted Paul's ministry and some told him in person to drop dead and go to you know where, saying he had no authority to speak in God's name. Apostles may spend time with people but are only spiritual guidance counselors(elders or presbuteros) and that plurality or multiple people are necessary...
I sometimes wonder how much the original Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers would recognize what passes for these people's ministries today.
A lot of church ministers would like to be "pastors" or more often "teachers" and will openly state that they aren't any of the other people.
I believe these gift ministries can operate in the body of the congregation as a whole, and the people often don't receive the recognition they deserve because they aren't "trained."
The new minister in my church presented the church budget to the congregation recently. He ended with words approximating..."And these all need money to carry out, so increase your giving."
No no no no no. These things the church wants to do require PEOPLE who are willing to undertake these tasks - not necessarily people who undertake these tasks and get paid for doing so. (For sure, someone to coordinate what's going on may have a full-time job on their hands and need some recompense.) We should want to be involved. To have an outworking of our love for God, our walking in the way Christ did. There is plenty of work to do. There are plenty of unreached people. And there are plenty of things that are perhaps shorter-term or less demanding in nature.
Some people won't give in terms of themselves.
Some people won't give in financial terms.
And some won't give anything, either time or finances. They like to be passengers.
So it would be better, if some of the latter group did give to help pay someone - but it doesn't really absolve them of the need to contribute themselves.
One of our church ladies died recently. Sheila. Awesome woman.
Sheila had MS, I think Americans call this Lou Gherig's Disease. Sheila took to a wheelchair at age 50 but was still active in the church. As she became less mobile, what she did reduced in physical activity but not in spiritual. In later years, she had a prayer book. She went to a Focus group and people wrote down what they would like prayers for. Sheila took the book home. Her carer turned the pages and Sheila read them, or was read to. She prayed for every one and every thing. She saw answers to prayer. Things happened.
In the last couple of years she couldn't speak intelligibly, couldn't do a thing for herself. She could just smile. And pray. Her brain still worked, slowly, but it still worked, and she still believed. Until the day she died she believed for complete healing in her body.
If anyone could have sat back and said they couldn't do anything to help the church, Sheila could have. No-one would have criticized her.
But that's not what happened. She wasn't a passenger at anything. She was active until the very last day.
Sheila was 73 when she died. She was joyful. She expected to receive a new body forthwith.
Viola also authored God's Favorite Place on Earth, a revision of his earlier Bethany booklet, and this fall offered an audio class focusing on Galatians, Colossians, Romans, and Ephesians Called Christ is All.
Viola also authored God's Favorite Place on Earth, a revision of his earlier Bethany booklet, and this fall offered an audio class focusing on Galatians, Colossians, Romans, and Ephesians Called Christ is All.
Viola has done a remarkable job of making a "business" out of the things of God. He would make the money changers at the temple envious. Not much different than ol Vic in his "glory" days..
I'm not saying the man doesn't have anything positive to share.. In fact I enjoyed many of his older books myself. But then, I also enjoyed many of ol' Vic's plagiarized works.
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TrustAndObey
Personally most of the things he puts out these days isn't worth much, IMHO.. His only worthwhile books were his early ones.. Rethinking the wineskins, the original Pagan Christianity (not co-authored), Who is your covering... Those are pretty decent.. The latest groups of books, Reimagining Church, How to start a ? church, the newer Pagan Christianity, etc, etc.. are more watered down..
Course, with the early books, you have to ignore most his ramblings about Apostles. That was when he was being mentored by Edwards in his cult group, and they had a very slanted view of one. It also was the cause of much devastation in the Edwards group, and specifically Viola's handling of a few home churches he "helped" spoil. Would make ol' VP proud, redefining terms and all to set yourself up as some MOG.
But once Viola started to become a celebrity outside of Edwards group, and even within, he did much like ol Vic did, some power plays here and there, and soon, he left ol' Edwards and was given helm of a larger house church movement that usurped some of the Edwards group. Then Viola started a rewrite of his earlier books with more "politically correct" terminology, removing many of his views. Some good (like the apostolic junk) but others just to help solidify his celebrity position.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I also had bought Gene Edwards book on organic church, and read articles by Neil Cole about simple church. Some meetings are hymn/praise sings where people chose hymns and praise songs from hymnals or DVD's from Integrity's IWorship with lyrics are used, or someone composes new songs, or Cd's from Marty Haugen, David Haas, Handt Hanson, Lutheran Songs Today(Dakota, Johnathan Rudulman). Some chose to omit music altogether if everyone agrees to that, going into free spontaneous prayer concerns. some people share joys and blessings maybe based on scripture. Other times may have Bible Study on Acts or some epistle, or even(gasp)the gospels. Some House/Home churches do glossalia/speaking in tongues with same person interpreting or some one else. It can be perfect praise and adoration to God and Jesus Christ( most are trinitarians), or prayers about situations/conditions/circumstances unknown to the small group, or like prophecy may be God speaking words of comfort/consolation/ encouragement/exhortation/edification, more like a spiritual hug or embrace by God/Jesus when one or more are hurting. Not all house/home churches do spiritual gifts/manifestations/activations. there is no money offering/tithes/abundant sharing because there is no budget and no one is salaried for full time ministry work(all receive income from secular jobs). Some celebrate Holy Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist with a normal meal daily or weekly or monthly or quaterly/semester or once a year, while others divorce this with bread and wine/graper juice only. btw, the Agape meal or Lovefeast really is more like a potluck supper or picnic on the grounds, or simply snacks and refreshments, unlike the Moravian tradition which includes coffee/hot chocolate/spiced tea and some bakery good like Moravian mollasses sugar cookies or cinnamon buns/danish/coffee cake while hymns, choir anthems, instrumental music, prayers, and maybe scripture readings are occuring. Any futher discussion? final thought, during any bible study questions are encouraged(re: to house church).
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
that last statement is very important, Yes you can interupt the sermon/homily with questions by raising your hand or add comments during or immediately afterwards. Something Leonard, Wierwille, Geer, Martindale, and Hendricks oppossed and objected to, and sorry to say most denominational clergy would not allow(at least not during worship but maybe afterwards possibly in their study/office).
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
brought this back up to ask if there is any further comment or discussion. If not, fine.
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socks
Not familiar with this particular movement by brand name, no.
From the "organic church" website: http://www.organicchurch.com/
The concept of organic church is just like anything else organic, unspoiled by human hands. In his book, Frank Viola says that an Organic Church is not a theater with a script, but a lifestyle, an authentic journey with the Lord Jesus and His disciples. He also indicates that an Organic Church is born out of spiritual life, not constructed by human institutions and held together by religious programs.
Browsed a bit, that's about it. I sort of get what they're talking about, although the idea of a gathering of humans that's "unspoiled by human hands" seems a kind of quirky idea if not impossible. Human handling of any kind changes what it handles if we're talking about things that grow. If one chooses to eat the berries that grow on the bush in spring, drink their water as it flows from the ground and sup on the fish that swim into their arms, that an organic life lived would be. Anything else probably has some handling to get from the environment to the table.
But yeah, organic I guess meaning the source material feeding it is primarily spiritual with the least amount of added whatever, so it's organically grown from the best sources.
To johnj's point - my word for it long term would be "unwieldy". The organic thing sounds good on face value but to link another buzz word, "sustainability" .... how will it perform long term?
Saying that the church is a spiritual entity - I get that. Saying that the members of that entity exist as described in say, Ephesians - I get that. Saying that the best and primary way for those members to exist and function is in a small slice of that, I'm not so sure about that. A part of the greater whole, yes. But if I over emphasize the smaller slice I risk disconnecting from the larger whole. So at least the smaller slice would have to remain an active part of the larger whole, on some level.
Where I might agree, not sure if this is one of the intents of organic churching, is that the large, "corporate" gatherings as they're called don't serve all interests and needs as a total solution. And those larger churches, denominations inevitably will have some tradition, some form and function that may or may not be appropriate.
Same will go for the smaller home groups too though.
To be truly "organic" in today's society one has to disconnect from the social grid and network of services and go literally "off the grid". That may be good for some and for a time but long term? Not even necessarily healthy, IMO.
Same could go for this kind of thing.
A mix, rather than an either/or this/or that approach works for me and seems to be allow for maximum flexibility and function.
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Ham
I haven't found anybody who want to come to the first church of ham..
even if there is *real* meat on the end of the hook..
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johnj
Kinds of churches, from organic to traditional...
church (and secular) government, from hierarchical to democratic...
families, from patriarchal to matriarchal...
and any kind of human endeavor...
are only as good as the people who are in them.
So they range from good to horrible. The people make the thing good or bad, not the type of structure itself.
Because people sin and lack complete wisdom and love, we will always fall short and be frustrated. This is why we need grace in Jesus Christ.
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socks
Good point. I think I often expect things to deliver more than their capacity. Jesus and the 12 - a small number, worked well, but the critical component was Christ, less the relative size of the group. (although 12 had significance) I would have to assume from the gospels and Acts that there was the anticipation of large numbers coming. They're ability to perform was human, and human activities have flaws, they develop, go in fits and starts. Jesus made it clear, they will know us by "our love", not by our corporate perfections, org charts and snappy robes. Grace, forgiveness and enough love to stick together, with the message of Christ front and center, makes for a good start for all sizes.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
The implication is there is no "ordained professional clergy" since all Christians are required to be that but with no salary/pay, no professional church musicians(well that knocks me out of any job/vocation/career)serving large organizations called "churches/denominations"(however band and/or chorus directors at high school or colege/university level that is secular is acceptable), budgets are forbidden and offerings are optional. Everyone is a servant evangelist doing soup kitchens, meals on wheels, Habitat for Humanity, helping at homeless shelters, etc. Social networking with other independent house churches but not being annexed by them. O, if churhes do proclaim heresies, then it does not become viral and other small groups may choose to reject them, reprimand them, or accept that group's theology is tolerated but not practiced in their gatherings. Jesus Christ is the only boss each human is responsible to. There is mutual subjection to one another on an equal basis. If problems do arise, then apostolic workers(mature adults) may visit and send written communications. BTW, not all in Corinth accepted Paul's ministry and some told him in person to drop dead and go to you know where, saying he had no authority to speak in God's name. Apostles may spend time with people but are only spiritual guidance counselors(elders or presbuteros) and that plurality or multiple people are necessary and all laity may consecrate communion, perform weddings(even if secular government opposses this), no sermons or homilies(boring dull speeches), and finally if it gets too big, split it. Hickory has about 75 thousand people and about 250 congregations denominationally. The proposed model for the city would be 10,000 private parishes averaging not more than 12 people per house permanently and to forbid numerical growth in each gathering. Viola, a former Assemblies of God, and Edwards, former Baptist pastor say this is the new paradigm and is mandatory by God's will. No Mars Hill Bible Church, no People's Temple, no Uniforcation, no Branch Davidian, no TWI, no JW, or any cult, because they violate the rule by absorbing other fellowships and wanted large numbers of people they could persuade or to put it simple smaller is always better. Jesus is Lord(Kurios) meaning boss man/ manager in which each person is responsible on an intimate basis and he alone has the final say so, whether we like his message or not. There is a balance between free will/choice and obedience by God's group think( not human coercion) through the working of the Holy Spirit, coming to an unaminous decision.
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Ham
finally we come to some universal truth..
at least I think..
Thanks friend.
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excathedra
i fell asleep after the first post
i dont care if you hate me but i hope you don't
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ex, no I don't hate you. If the topic bores you, then you can ignore it, won't hurt my feelings. Hope all is right with you
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
to respond to John Juddess, Viola says he is beyond evangelical, neither religious right fundamentalist not left wing libertine. Christ alone and only, an obsession spiritually. Everyone is equally submissive and subjected to each other, no leaders(all are leaders and "ordained") and all do the same thing spiritually as mentioned above. More of hands on training where everyone mentors/tutors everyone else, other words everyone is pastor/deacon/teacher/apostle/evangelist/missionary/bishop who are spiritually mature "elders" even if they are in their 20's, spiritual guidance counselors and advisors. Which would mean you and other clergy would be permanently defrocked and have to find a secular job/vocation/career for work but could continue with other laity to baptise, consecrate communion, and perform weddings(telling county clerk of court screw you) but would be stripped of "ordaination". Viola 's other books include Epic Jesus and Eternal Purpose. final word on this topic from me.
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excathedra
only read the opening post and i liked
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Viola has co-authored a book with Leonard Sweet called Jesus: A Theography. Viola is an extreme fanatical, obsessed Trinararian, way more than most. I am now reading Jon Zens and Howard Snyder.
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Twinky
I sometimes think that churches are an excuse for people not getting involved in such things - they leave it to others - and it can end up with just a few doing all the Christian "outreach" type of work.
I sometimes wonder how much the original Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers would recognize what passes for these people's ministries today.
A lot of church ministers would like to be "pastors" or more often "teachers" and will openly state that they aren't any of the other people.
I believe these gift ministries can operate in the body of the congregation as a whole, and the people often don't receive the recognition they deserve because they aren't "trained."
The new minister in my church presented the church budget to the congregation recently. He ended with words approximating..."And these all need money to carry out, so increase your giving."
No no no no no. These things the church wants to do require PEOPLE who are willing to undertake these tasks - not necessarily people who undertake these tasks and get paid for doing so. (For sure, someone to coordinate what's going on may have a full-time job on their hands and need some recompense.) We should want to be involved. To have an outworking of our love for God, our walking in the way Christ did. There is plenty of work to do. There are plenty of unreached people. And there are plenty of things that are perhaps shorter-term or less demanding in nature.
Some people won't give in terms of themselves.
Some people won't give in financial terms.
And some won't give anything, either time or finances. They like to be passengers.
So it would be better, if some of the latter group did give to help pay someone - but it doesn't really absolve them of the need to contribute themselves.
One of our church ladies died recently. Sheila. Awesome woman.
Sheila had MS, I think Americans call this Lou Gherig's Disease. Sheila took to a wheelchair at age 50 but was still active in the church. As she became less mobile, what she did reduced in physical activity but not in spiritual. In later years, she had a prayer book. She went to a Focus group and people wrote down what they would like prayers for. Sheila took the book home. Her carer turned the pages and Sheila read them, or was read to. She prayed for every one and every thing. She saw answers to prayer. Things happened.
In the last couple of years she couldn't speak intelligibly, couldn't do a thing for herself. She could just smile. And pray. Her brain still worked, slowly, but it still worked, and she still believed. Until the day she died she believed for complete healing in her body.
If anyone could have sat back and said they couldn't do anything to help the church, Sheila could have. No-one would have criticized her.
But that's not what happened. She wasn't a passenger at anything. She was active until the very last day.
Sheila was 73 when she died. She was joyful. She expected to receive a new body forthwith.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Viola also authored God's Favorite Place on Earth, a revision of his earlier Bethany booklet, and this fall offered an audio class focusing on Galatians, Colossians, Romans, and Ephesians Called Christ is All.
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TrustAndObey
Viola has done a remarkable job of making a "business" out of the things of God. He would make the money changers at the temple envious. Not much different than ol Vic in his "glory" days..
I'm not saying the man doesn't have anything positive to share.. In fact I enjoyed many of his older books myself. But then, I also enjoyed many of ol' Vic's plagiarized works.
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