I just wonder. If there is no hierarchy and such, how does he deal with individuals or groups differing in opinion from him? i.e.. the trinity, speaking in tongues, the state of the supposed dead, etc?
Denominations are just associations of churches which band together to do what individual churches (much less home groups) cannot do. You see most of the basic functions of denominations being done by churches already in the NT.
Paul and his assistans (Titus, Tim) clearly oversee local churches. They intentionally go back to congregations to correct problems and assert authority over them. Acts talks about this, but an obvious example is when Paul returns to Corinth to deal with sin and heresy, including that among leadership there.
Various churches send offerings to Jerusalem for beleivers in famine after Agabus informs them. This is both regional leadership (Agabus) and churches banding together to help the poor in Judea, something individual churches or home groups are not large enough to do by themselves.
the church in Antioch sent out missionaries (Paul and Barnabas).
Church leaders met together in acts 15 to resolve a doctrinal conflict (whether Gentiles should be circumcised) and exert authority over false teachers.
Budding young leaders served apprenticeships with Paul as he planted churches... this is leadership training like a (traveling) seminary.
Denominations- associations of churches- serve very good purposes- oversight of churches and leaders, helping the poor, training leaders, sending missionaries, setting standards of doctrine and practice, etc. Without them the church at large does not get the job done.
The fact is, if VPW had been part of an evangelical denomination, leadership would have promptly removed him and replaced him with godly leadership, nipping the TWI problem in the bud. Heretics, adulterers, women-abusers like VPW do not want to be part of an evangelical denomination, because they will be censured by them. Being outside a denomination was part of TWI's problem.
I have been reading books by Frank Viola about house/home churches aka simple, organic, NT biblical. His most controversial is Pagan Christianity? ... Would VPW have perverted this?
Great book if you ask me.. VPW wanted control.. Wanted to be the head.. And we allowed it..
If anything, that book is all about removing the artificial heads that have decapitated and tried to usurp control over this one body God's called us to..
The best book of his to get would be the out of print "Rethinking the wineskins"..
I just wonder. If there is no hierarchy and such, how does he deal with individuals or groups differing in opinion from him? i.e.. the trinity, speaking in tongues, the state of the supposed dead, etc?
Having associated extremely loosely with his previous "group" (the one he was being trained in when he wrote those books), which is a cult of it's own, although I can't say it was the reason Viola left. Differing opinions are a non-issue as long as Christ is your head, meaning you make him your Lord. As Christ is recorded as saying, "Why call me Lord, and yet don't do the things I say?".
The cult he was a part of basically worshiped the books from this fictional book writer, Gene Edwards.. Viola was being mentored by him. I personally went a number of times because I had read Viola's books and wanted to talk to Viola personally who was known to visit this one house group from time to time where I lived.
And while there isn't "hierarchy" so to speak in that group and now the "house movement" he is involved in, there is accountability within the church. There are elders among the church and within each gathering, but they are not suppose to be "over" the people or any portion of the church. Rather they are their as helpers and guides "within" for those who seek help, and they are to be on watch over what is happening and if things begin to move away from the things of Christ - they admonish the church back, but they have no power or authority except what the whole assembly allows.
Course in practice it doesn't always work out that way. As as long as we all see the scriptures through the veiled eyes and perception we've been given ("as through a dark glass"), everyone has their own idea of "right".. And groups will always divide and form where pride and "my way" reigns. The latter being the purpose the book by Viola was written, to try and show how those end up removing the Lord from his rightful position as head in the body.
Today the phrase organic church is in vogue, but it has been converted to clay.
Some mold it as a method of church to win souls and change the world for Christ, a sentiment that harkens back to D. L. Moody and J. R. Mott. These advocates see the church as a soul-winning station. Its chief mission is the evangelization of the world.
Others mold it as a synonym for house church. A house church is simply a group of Christians that meets in a home for their corporate worship. That can take countless forms and expressions. House churches can range from institutional services in a living room with pews firmly bolted to the floor, to glorified Bible studies, supper-fests, "bless-me" clubs, healthy Christian communities, or first-rate cults.
As I've often said, meeting in a home doesn't make you a church any more than sitting in a donut shop makes you a police officer (no offense to police officers; the better part of my family is in law enforcement!). There's nothing magical about meeting in a home. And the living room, while a great place to gather, should never be the Christian's passion.
Denominations are just associations of churches which band together to do what individual churches (much less home groups) cannot do.
The fact is, if VPW had been part of an evangelical denomination, leadership would have promptly removed him and replaced him with godly leadership, nipping the TWI problem in the bud. Heretics, adulterers, women-abusers like VPW do not want to be part of an evangelical denomination, because they will be censured by them. Being outside a denomination was part of TWI's problem.
Being outside of God's will was TWI's problem.. Removing Christ as the proper head, rather than a doctor/reverend/pastors/elders/bishops/deacon/etc, is still their problem as well as their offshoots. And denomination's are not much better, IMHO.. I've been a part of, and seen too many other denominational congregations (Baptist and Assembly of God personally) be ripped to shreds by pastors gone astray. And it isn't until after decades, their worldly ways are found out and the devastation revealed to the rest of the congregation.. Not much different with ol Vic.
Being outside of God's will was TWI's problem.. Removing Christ as the proper head, rather than a doctor/reverend/pastors/elders/bishops/deacon/etc, is still their problem as well as their offshoots. And denomination's are not much better, IMHO.. I've been a part of, and seen too many other denominational congregations (Baptist and Assembly of God personally) be ripped to shreds by pastors gone astray. And it isn't until after decades, their worldly ways are found out and the devastation revealed to the rest of the congregation.. Not much different with ol Vic.
Being in the AG and going through a Baptist college I understand that there have been some who have committed adultry..... abused pained killers and they have been removed from there positions. I don't know of any churches in my circles that have stopped because of it.
What I find ironic of TWI is that in there effort to be "The Organic Church" they actually have become what they claimed to hate. They are the epitome of there own redefinition of religion.
How they are blind to it is just aggravating sometimes lol.
Thomas - it certainly appears as though VPW could have borrowed from Viola. What else is new?
I attend a rather large church that has small groups. I choose not to become involved in a small group. For one thing, I have a limited amount of time and it would be one more thing on an already crowded plate. I have found that small group people tend to hang out with those in their small group, which I think stifles their growth and keeps them comfortable. They tend to pick and choose who will be in their group. I prefer to feel free to float around and get to know a lot of people, even if it is just beyond an acquaintance.
The other thing I have pointed out before is that home-church "movements" haven't been sustainable, historically, Nor do they continue to grow. They fizzle and die unless there are frequent large-corporate worship opportunities, and charismatic leadership. TWI used to cite the growth of the church in the first century, when the reality is that there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement remaining in the area where Paul preached - just as there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement started by VPW.
the posts from Trust and Obey were the other points I was going to mention. Viola's books are Pagan Christianity? the roots of Our Church practices, co-authored with George Barna = Tydale Books; Reimaginging Church: Pursuing the dream of Organic Christianity = David Cook; Finding Organic Church; The Untold story of the New Testament Church = Destiny Image.
Denominations are just associations of churches which band together to do what individual churches (much less home groups) cannot do. You see most of the basic functions of denominations being done by churches already in the NT.
Paul and his assistans (Titus, Tim) clearly oversee local churches. They intentionally go back to congregations to correct problems and assert authority over them. Acts talks about this, but an obvious example is when Paul returns to Corinth to deal with sin and heresy, including that among leadership there.
Various churches send offerings to Jerusalem for beleivers in famine after Agabus informs them. This is both regional leadership (Agabus) and churches banding together to help the poor in Judea, something individual churches or home groups are not large enough to do by themselves.
the church in Antioch sent out missionaries (Paul and Barnabas).
Church leaders met together in acts 15 to resolve a doctrinal conflict (whether Gentiles should be circumcised) and exert authority over false teachers.
Budding young leaders served apprenticeships with Paul as he planted churches... this is leadership training like a (traveling) seminary.
Denominations- associations of churches- serve very good purposes- oversight of churches and leaders, helping the poor, training leaders, sending missionaries, setting standards of doctrine and practice, etc. Without them the church at large does not get the job done.
The fact is, if VPW had been part of an evangelical denomination, leadership would have promptly removed him and replaced him with godly leadership, nipping the TWI problem in the bud. Heretics, adulterers, women-abusers like VPW do not want to be part of an evangelical denomination, because they will be censured by them. Being outside a denomination was part of TWI's problem.
John, have you read viola's books and what is your opinion of him? I listed the 4 books written by him. He seems to cherry pick from John White and Frank Senn's books on worship. and prefers loose networking with other Christians
Course in practice it doesn't always work out that way. As as long as we all see the scriptures through the veiled eyes and perception we've been given ("as through a dark glass"
I haven't read Viola's books. But the idea of house churches is always around (because there are always a few around, and the need for them sometimes arises, such as in countries which prohibit churches). "There is nothing new under the sun," as Ecclesiastes says.
I've been to some house churches. The ones that grow suddenly find themselves becoming like churches, for several reasons. As they grow, they...
- outgrow the house... and find they need to rent/buy a church building.
- wants to meet more than once a week.... and find that the owner of the house can't be there all the time (and doesn't want a large group to essentially take over his home)
- receive offerings from people who want to give them... and wonder how that looks to the IRS or how they can get donation deductions on taxes
- find they have a bunch of children, and get the bright idea of having studies for them (Sunday School by any other name...)
- find the leader can't handle all the demands... and wonder if the group should pay him as their minister
- have a conflict arise and wish they had outside leadership to help them resolve it
- want to start spin off groups, and wonder how to train leaders to do it well
Any house church responsible only to God and the collective conscience of the attendees has to be infinitely better than one under the heavy hand and false leadership of TWI.
Any house church responsible only to God and the collective conscience of the attendees has to be infinitely better than one under the heavy hand and false leadership of TWI.
Or the other off-shoots who race off to get 501 c-3 tax exemptions to help build their "organizations" in the image of the way international of yesteryear.
When I was very young, most of the women in my church growing up were home makers. That was the way things were then.
There was a large monthly meeting of these women (who wanted to, of course) and they were the Women's Guild. They took on missionaries to support and did whatever they had to to finance them. Sometimes they took on other projects too.
There was also Women's Circle. These were small units...maybe 12 - 15 or so. Mostly they followed some study program or other approved by Consistory (Consistory = elders + deacons + minister(s)) As I remember, the Guild mainly served the church and it's programs and the Circles mainly served the non church community. My mother belonged to one of these Circles...she always joined the same one....most people did. They found a niche where they could work together with a single focus and see a particular job through to completion.
The organic church seems much like those Circles. Also...the idea of them behaving as an "evolving organism" isn't meant literally...I'm sure you know that..When you work with some of the same people long enough you cut to the chase more quickly and honor one another's contributions without words. As I remember some of the strongest women were members of some of these circles.
I've known some fine people who were part of, or led, house churches.
But there are also "hot dogs" who want to run their own house churches because they have an unhealthy desire to run their own show, to avoid being in submission to anyone else ("submission" being an important Christian attitude, because all are to be in submission to someone), are prideful, and/or they avoid the hard work of learning to serve in concert with others. House church is a whitewashed excuse to foster their own unhealthy attitudes.
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waysider
To each his own
Said Farmer Jones
As he kissed old Bossy the cow.
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Ham
I just wonder. If there is no hierarchy and such, how does he deal with individuals or groups differing in opinion from him? i.e.. the trinity, speaking in tongues, the state of the supposed dead, etc?
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johnj
Denominations are just associations of churches which band together to do what individual churches (much less home groups) cannot do. You see most of the basic functions of denominations being done by churches already in the NT.
Paul and his assistans (Titus, Tim) clearly oversee local churches. They intentionally go back to congregations to correct problems and assert authority over them. Acts talks about this, but an obvious example is when Paul returns to Corinth to deal with sin and heresy, including that among leadership there.
Various churches send offerings to Jerusalem for beleivers in famine after Agabus informs them. This is both regional leadership (Agabus) and churches banding together to help the poor in Judea, something individual churches or home groups are not large enough to do by themselves.
the church in Antioch sent out missionaries (Paul and Barnabas).
Church leaders met together in acts 15 to resolve a doctrinal conflict (whether Gentiles should be circumcised) and exert authority over false teachers.
Budding young leaders served apprenticeships with Paul as he planted churches... this is leadership training like a (traveling) seminary.
Denominations- associations of churches- serve very good purposes- oversight of churches and leaders, helping the poor, training leaders, sending missionaries, setting standards of doctrine and practice, etc. Without them the church at large does not get the job done.
The fact is, if VPW had been part of an evangelical denomination, leadership would have promptly removed him and replaced him with godly leadership, nipping the TWI problem in the bud. Heretics, adulterers, women-abusers like VPW do not want to be part of an evangelical denomination, because they will be censured by them. Being outside a denomination was part of TWI's problem.
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TrustAndObey
Great book if you ask me.. VPW wanted control.. Wanted to be the head.. And we allowed it..
If anything, that book is all about removing the artificial heads that have decapitated and tried to usurp control over this one body God's called us to..
The best book of his to get would be the out of print "Rethinking the wineskins"..
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TrustAndObey
Having associated extremely loosely with his previous "group" (the one he was being trained in when he wrote those books), which is a cult of it's own, although I can't say it was the reason Viola left. Differing opinions are a non-issue as long as Christ is your head, meaning you make him your Lord. As Christ is recorded as saying, "Why call me Lord, and yet don't do the things I say?".
The cult he was a part of basically worshiped the books from this fictional book writer, Gene Edwards.. Viola was being mentored by him. I personally went a number of times because I had read Viola's books and wanted to talk to Viola personally who was known to visit this one house group from time to time where I lived.
And while there isn't "hierarchy" so to speak in that group and now the "house movement" he is involved in, there is accountability within the church. There are elders among the church and within each gathering, but they are not suppose to be "over" the people or any portion of the church. Rather they are their as helpers and guides "within" for those who seek help, and they are to be on watch over what is happening and if things begin to move away from the things of Christ - they admonish the church back, but they have no power or authority except what the whole assembly allows.
Course in practice it doesn't always work out that way. As as long as we all see the scriptures through the veiled eyes and perception we've been given ("as through a dark glass"), everyone has their own idea of "right".. And groups will always divide and form where pride and "my way" reigns. The latter being the purpose the book by Viola was written, to try and show how those end up removing the Lord from his rightful position as head in the body.
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skyrider
Interesting topic......thanks.
Why Organic Church is Not Exactly a Movement
Today the phrase organic church is in vogue, but it has been converted to clay.
Some mold it as a method of church to win souls and change the world for Christ, a sentiment that harkens back to D. L. Moody and J. R. Mott. These advocates see the church as a soul-winning station. Its chief mission is the evangelization of the world.
Others mold it as a synonym for house church. A house church is simply a group of Christians that meets in a home for their corporate worship. That can take countless forms and expressions. House churches can range from institutional services in a living room with pews firmly bolted to the floor, to glorified Bible studies, supper-fests, "bless-me" clubs, healthy Christian communities, or first-rate cults.
As I've often said, meeting in a home doesn't make you a church any more than sitting in a donut shop makes you a police officer (no offense to police officers; the better part of my family is in law enforcement!). There's nothing magical about meeting in a home. And the living room, while a great place to gather, should never be the Christian's passion.
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TrustAndObey
Being outside of God's will was TWI's problem.. Removing Christ as the proper head, rather than a doctor/reverend/pastors/elders/bishops/deacon/etc, is still their problem as well as their offshoots. And denomination's are not much better, IMHO.. I've been a part of, and seen too many other denominational congregations (Baptist and Assembly of God personally) be ripped to shreds by pastors gone astray. And it isn't until after decades, their worldly ways are found out and the devastation revealed to the rest of the congregation.. Not much different with ol Vic.
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Naten00
Being in the AG and going through a Baptist college I understand that there have been some who have committed adultry..... abused pained killers and they have been removed from there positions. I don't know of any churches in my circles that have stopped because of it.
What I find ironic of TWI is that in there effort to be "The Organic Church" they actually have become what they claimed to hate. They are the epitome of there own redefinition of religion.
How they are blind to it is just aggravating sometimes lol.
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Tzaia
Thomas - it certainly appears as though VPW could have borrowed from Viola. What else is new?
I attend a rather large church that has small groups. I choose not to become involved in a small group. For one thing, I have a limited amount of time and it would be one more thing on an already crowded plate. I have found that small group people tend to hang out with those in their small group, which I think stifles their growth and keeps them comfortable. They tend to pick and choose who will be in their group. I prefer to feel free to float around and get to know a lot of people, even if it is just beyond an acquaintance.
The other thing I have pointed out before is that home-church "movements" haven't been sustainable, historically, Nor do they continue to grow. They fizzle and die unless there are frequent large-corporate worship opportunities, and charismatic leadership. TWI used to cite the growth of the church in the first century, when the reality is that there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement remaining in the area where Paul preached - just as there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement started by VPW.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
the posts from Trust and Obey were the other points I was going to mention. Viola's books are Pagan Christianity? the roots of Our Church practices, co-authored with George Barna = Tydale Books; Reimaginging Church: Pursuing the dream of Organic Christianity = David Cook; Finding Organic Church; The Untold story of the New Testament Church = Destiny Image.
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waysider
You want organic?
Here ya go.
HERE
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Ham
sounds like my kind of church..
sacrament? I could agree with this..
"back in the day" I had a more visual experience with marijuana, than I ever had with lsd..
something grown from seeds that somebody smuggled out of Cambodia..
I think it was grown by one of my brother's friends, the one who's girlfriend (an fiancee) attempted to run over with his own fancy vehicle..
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Ham
the weirdest thing here..
by his name, and compared to that of a poster here, he ended up in da way..
HOWEVER.. there is no evidence that I can see that this character ever ingested anything hallucinogenic at Woodstock..
How much more do you want here??
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waysider
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Ham
that really isn't the problem here, is it?
gawd.. I loved that music.. you have a gift friend. Just don't know what to call it..
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waysider
Pack up your babies and grab your old lady and everyone goes 'cause everyone knows Brother Love's shows.
CLICK
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John, have you read viola's books and what is your opinion of him? I listed the 4 books written by him. He seems to cherry pick from John White and Frank Senn's books on worship. and prefers loose networking with other Christians
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Ham
or did you mean "as through a glass eye"..
or did you mean..
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johnj
I haven't read Viola's books. But the idea of house churches is always around (because there are always a few around, and the need for them sometimes arises, such as in countries which prohibit churches). "There is nothing new under the sun," as Ecclesiastes says.
I've been to some house churches. The ones that grow suddenly find themselves becoming like churches, for several reasons. As they grow, they...
- outgrow the house... and find they need to rent/buy a church building.
- wants to meet more than once a week.... and find that the owner of the house can't be there all the time (and doesn't want a large group to essentially take over his home)
- receive offerings from people who want to give them... and wonder how that looks to the IRS or how they can get donation deductions on taxes
- find they have a bunch of children, and get the bright idea of having studies for them (Sunday School by any other name...)
- find the leader can't handle all the demands... and wonder if the group should pay him as their minister
- have a conflict arise and wish they had outside leadership to help them resolve it
- want to start spin off groups, and wonder how to train leaders to do it well
and wa-la- you have a "church"
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chockfull
Any house church responsible only to God and the collective conscience of the attendees has to be infinitely better than one under the heavy hand and false leadership of TWI.
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OldSkool
Or the other off-shoots who race off to get 501 c-3 tax exemptions to help build their "organizations" in the image of the way international of yesteryear.
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krys
When I was very young, most of the women in my church growing up were home makers. That was the way things were then.
There was a large monthly meeting of these women (who wanted to, of course) and they were the Women's Guild. They took on missionaries to support and did whatever they had to to finance them. Sometimes they took on other projects too.
There was also Women's Circle. These were small units...maybe 12 - 15 or so. Mostly they followed some study program or other approved by Consistory (Consistory = elders + deacons + minister(s)) As I remember, the Guild mainly served the church and it's programs and the Circles mainly served the non church community. My mother belonged to one of these Circles...she always joined the same one....most people did. They found a niche where they could work together with a single focus and see a particular job through to completion.
The organic church seems much like those Circles. Also...the idea of them behaving as an "evolving organism" isn't meant literally...I'm sure you know that..When you work with some of the same people long enough you cut to the chase more quickly and honor one another's contributions without words. As I remember some of the strongest women were members of some of these circles.
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johnj
I've known some fine people who were part of, or led, house churches.
But there are also "hot dogs" who want to run their own house churches because they have an unhealthy desire to run their own show, to avoid being in submission to anyone else ("submission" being an important Christian attitude, because all are to be in submission to someone), are prideful, and/or they avoid the hard work of learning to serve in concert with others. House church is a whitewashed excuse to foster their own unhealthy attitudes.
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krys
agreed
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