Hearing from an angel does not equal execution.

[WordWolf]

Before I forget....

This business of an angel beginning its message with "Fear not" goes back a LONG way into the Old Testament.

In a few places it's rather specific that the people had the superstition that if they saw an angel,

they would drop dead. So, the angel had to begin by calming them down sometimes, even specifying the

person would not drop dead. In one case (Samson's parents I think), an angel gives some lengthy

information concerning raising of a child who wasn't born yet-along with the announcement of his

conception, and then the angel leaves. Dad's freaking out because he's expecting them both to

drop dead. Mom is much more sensible. What would be the point of giving us instructions on raising

a child for several years, when he isn't even born yet and we're supposed to drop dead now?

Obviously, we're expected to live to raise him. It was an irrational fear the people added and

did no good for any of them.

It's my personal speculation that that specific superstition MIGHT be related to the angel of death

and the 10th plague on Egypt. Maybe.

Either way, that wasn't confirmation we're supposed to have anxiety when hearing from God- it was a

report of the failings of the listeners to actually LISTEN, and their failure to keep superstition

away from their expectations of God Almighty.

==============================

(snip)

Concerning the angels I don't see anything in the text of superstition... There is nothing in the text suggesting adding irrational fear. It is just a record.... What facts do you have to present your theory that it was a superstition? For it to be added on is only an assumption especially since it happened every time for a long period of time as superstitions change. It makes more since that it happened exactly as it was recorded.

(snip)

I'm sure you didn't mean that quite like it sounded to me. I was speaking of SEVERAL accounts,

and fears in them that were not borne out factually. That, to me, speaks of IRRATIONAL fear.

When an irrational fear is CONSISTENT among different people, that, to me, speaks of a SUPERSTITION.

(If lots of people are afraid, across several countries, of something from under their bed coming

to get them in their sleep, that's a SUPERSTITION. If lots of people are afraid they will have

friends commit suicide over the holidays, that's a superstition. Similarly, any widespread fear

contrary to evidence and based on stories passed around- that I call a "superstition."

"It makes more sense that it happened exactly as it was recorded."

It's recorded EXACTLY as it happened. Some people ACTUALLY heard from angels, and ACTUALLY

expected that would mean they would drop dead immediately as a result. As recorded, there was

no reason FROM GOD for them to think that, so they failed to receive according to their

superstitious believing.

Since you're challenging my claim that this is what's going on in the text, rather than just say

"I think it says this" and "I disagree-it says that", let's actually look at an account or two.

=======================================

(KJV unless otherwise specified)

Judges 6:11-23

11And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

12And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

13And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

14And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

15And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.

16And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

17And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

18Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set it before thee. And he said, I will tarry until thou come again.

19And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it.

20And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.

21Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

22And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.

23And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

====================================

Ok, what happened here?

An angel of the LORD, and the LORD, attempt to pass along a message (messages) to Gideon.

They include

"The LORD is with thee" "Thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites" and Gideon was sent by the LORD.

the LORD would be with him.

"Thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man."

If it's really God telling you this, then you should know God's promising you'll at least be alive during

the time you're carrying this out. (Come on, be logical-you can't accomplish a military victory as a corpse.)

Gideon's lingering doubts centered around actually hearing from the LORD. When that was confirmed,

Gideon SHOULD have known God wanted him to do stuff and expected Gideon to be alive while performing it.

What was Gideon's response?

AAAAAHHH! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face! I shall now drop dead!

The very next thing God had to tell him was "Peace, don't be afraid, you won't die."

Was it LOGICAL for Gideon, at that point, to conclude he would drop dead as the result of seeing the angel of the LORD face to face?

Gideon's premise: If I see the angel of the LORD face to face, I shall die.

I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face.

Conclusion: I shall die.

Gideon not only did NOT die, God told him he would not die. Gideon's "logic" led to a false conclusion.

Gideon's "logic" was faulty. What was "logical" about expecting to die specifically because he saw the angel of the LORD?

There was NEVER an instruction to expect that.

Go ahead- find one and prove me wrong- one place where God says "IF you see an angel of the LORD, you will drop dead soon after."

You won't find one. It is illogical.

Angels were sent to deliver messages.

Messengers who killed every recipient of a message are of a very limited usefulness.

===========================================

Judges 13:1-24

1And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years.

2And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.

3And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

5For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

6Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

7But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

8Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

9And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

10And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

12And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?

13And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.

14She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

15And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.

17And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

19So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.

22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

23But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

24And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.

Mrs Manoah was pretty level-headed. God (or the messenger thereof) gave her specific instructions as to she

was to spend several years raising a child who wasn't even born. Logically, this meant God expected her

to live to give birth to this child, and either raise him or arrange his raising before dying.

Mrs Manoah concluded seeing an angel of the LORD meant a really accurate message since it was from God.

As we see in the rest of Judges, that was what happened- which should be no surprise, since it proceeded

logically from what happened.

Mr Manoah, however, completely disregarded the entire message. What did Mr Manoah say?

He realized he saw an angel, and said

"AAAAAAHHH! I will definitely drop dead, because I saw 'God'."

This was not logical- Mrs Manoah pointed that out. It also proceeded from a false premise-

Seeing an angel of the LORD means one dies shortly thereafter.

It happened in different places at different times, and was illogical each time.

It was based on an irrational, illogical fear that was passed around.

That's a superstition.

Gideon and Mr Manoah had superstitious fears that never came to pass.

They exhibited irrational fears.

That's what the record shows.