Once again......as always, the youth are highly prized.
Re-name it, re-package it, dress it up, dress it down,
put a uniform on him, put a sign in her hands, pitch a tent,
occupy space, military enlistment, religious recruitment,
schemes and dreams, scams and scums, rightly or wrongly,
......the youth are always targeted.
Ours is a youth-based culture today. Growing up to wise maturity is not the solid base and goal of our culture anymore. It's all about being and acting young and hip, having no wrinkles and skinny bodies and doing anything and everything to attain self-satisfaction. I agree with what you are saying, but I think it's a lot worse than what you state. The youth are being targeted; they are also being idolized and manipulated to the detriment of our culture as a whole.
Ours is a youth-based culture today. Growing up to wise maturity is not the solid base and goal of our culture anymore. It's all about being and acting young and hip, having no wrinkles and skinny bodies and doing anything and everything to attain self-satisfaction. I agree with what you are saying, but I think it's a lot worse than what you state. The youth are being targeted; they are also being idolized and manipulated to the detriment of our culture as a whole.
Actually, I think your news is OLD and no longer CORRECT.
For a few decades, the US has been catering specifically to the youth culture,
and older folks have been trying to pretend they weren't getting older.
(How many women have had lots of 39th Birthdays?)
That's also true of some other countries- in Japan, once you're out of school,
your life is pretty much considered devoid of fun, so everybody looks at high school
even more than college as "glory days." Women in their 30s and 40s can be found
emulating schoolgirls in mannerisms in order to find some hope of landing a
husband. (As I've read-I've never actually been there.) In Brazil, it's not so
much about youth as about looks- the country's economy seems to revolve around
plastic surgery and there's HOMELESS getting surgery and paying on installment.
(I SWEAR I'm not making that up.)
However, TO A DEGREE, that has CHANGED. The main reason it changed?
The Baby Boomers are growing OLDER. So, the target demographics for a lot of things
has shifted with them over decades. Yes, there's a lot of kids who are conspicuous
consumers, and they're the first to embrace a lot of new technology, but a lot of
people are trying to re-target those in their 40s and older.
(Comic books were once targeted towards children, and then teenagers. Now, there's
been a lot of story changes to return stories and characters to where they were
IN THE 1970's- when Baby Boomers were reading them, and watching cartoons.
Someone pointed out the childhood of the Baby Boomers is recreated on radio
stations every Christmas, and "a tradition" is anything Baby Boomers grew up with.
Similarly, movies are doing the same. We're seeing adaptations of 70s television
shows (Starsky and Hutch, Dukes of Hazzard, the Avengers) and stories that show
older people in more central roles (Space Cowboys could not have worked as a movie
back in the 1970s.) There's a LOT of people getting older, and television shows
are targeting them as well in demographics, plus all the media. Hey, corporations
want your money, so if you're older, they'll try to appeal to you with "older"
One might say that the bustin' size of Baby Boomers who (understandably) want to live longer, better and retain the qualities of life enjoyed by a younger mind and body are driving today's emphasis on youth. The want to be young, fit into their old size jeans and retain all the good of what they remember about themselves, knowing now what they didn't know then...
I think of that every time I hear and watch a TV commercial. In the 50's and 60's it was commercially verboten for TV commercials to be loud, aggressive, intrusive. The read was that those who had money - the older generation who worked all day - wanted to relax, chill, be at home watching the tube. That's changed over time obviously - today we hear the recycling of older music, mixed with newer technology. It's a fascinating development, the way the old is not that different than the new and what's new today contains such a huge volume of reference to the BB's past.
Yet I think the gap is there - it may be meaningful for the BB's to hear and see their own past relived now, seemingly older, wiser but still vigorous and vibrant - yet it's really not on the radar of the 20 somethings, who can appreciate it but aren't living it (or living it again).
The Evangelical history in the U.S. the last couple hundred years is also a way to view what's happened - that and the various distinctions between Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism over the years.
To me, the concept of "splinter" groups in the Way is a very minute part of a very small segment of a much larger picture we can view many different ways, smaller cuts of a small pie that's getting smaller every year.
Without trying to predict the future I don't see their platform as powerful enough to differentiate them out of the 'crowd' of available religions, churches, faiths, sects and societies.
Figure - Christianity has a basic message and a lot of storefronts all over the world.
If "a" group comes out of the gate one year advertizing new! different! better! powerful! versions.....................there will need to be a delivery on the promises at some point, or it will fade back into the background of everything else.
Look at the Way Nash of the 60's and 70's - if someone never "got" the results or had anything at all to show for what they were doing then they eventually modified what they were doing. Sooner or later, some modification had to be made.
Even those who say they're still just doin' what they were doing 30 years ago aren't - none of these splinter groups are doing what the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's, doctrine has changed or been "improved", practices and rituals are different. Similar but very different.
I don't think they're all bad by any means - it's a free country. I don't have a vested interest in them being good, bad, right or wrong. People do a lot of weird, perfectly legal things that only a few are interested in.
Even those who say they're still just doin' what they were doing 30 years ago aren't - none of these splinter groups are doing what the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's, doctrine has changed or been "improved", practices and rituals are different. Similar but very different.
I don't think they're all bad by any means - it's a free country. I don't have a vested interest in them being good, bad, right or wrong. People do a lot of weird, perfectly legal things that only a few are interested in.
And......none of the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's what they SAID they were doing.
Not once....did I ever see vpw, harry or ermal walk by the spirit of God....you know, those other
six top-tier manifestations. None. Nada. Zip.
When our corps group spent "trustee time" with Ermal and Dorothy....she shared stories with us
about how the ministry was so broke in the early years that when guests were invited over, she
would serve coffee and toast cut in triangles and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.
And....Harry stretched his nickels as far as possible.
To me.....I've heard these SAME STORIES from my grandparents and uncles. Any mystique that I once
And......none of the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's what they SAID they were doing.
Not once....did I ever see vpw, harry or ermal walk by the spirit of God....you know, those other
six top-tier manifestations. None. Nada. Zip.
When our corps group spent "trustee time" with Ermal and Dorothy....she shared stories with us
about how the ministry was so broke in the early years that when guests were invited over, she
would serve coffee and toast cut in triangles and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.
And....Harry stretched his nickels as far as possible.
To me.....I've heard these SAME STORIES from my grandparents and uncles. Any mystique that I once
had about the "trustees".........is long gone.
Indeed, to some degree I think anyone who's honest with their investment of time in the Way has to balance the kinds of things you're saying there and come to some conclusions sky.
This has to be done outside the "it's still the Word and the Word is true no matter what happens" paradigm.
To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way.
Yikes. I've posted before the most distressing thing I remember seeing was a Region/Limb Boss at a Corps meeting who had "missed" a call in the week before and was desperate to get the "notes". The person with the notes was trying to tell him about it and discuss it with him and he grabbed the note paper from him and opened up his Bible, started scribbling and said "Just gimme the notes, so I can teach it, that's all I need"..... yeah, teach something you haven't put a second into thinking about, considering and weighing. Great idea, not. One idiot regurgitating the regurgitations of the previous idiot.
But yeah, again - I don't see these splinter groups as having great impact when and if they promote something "new" and it ends up being pretty much the same as what everyone else does, in practice. Doctrines that are different maybe, but the promises of "power" and "results" have to produce tangible, measurable "things". All the feel good, it-saved-me stuff is fine but you can get that in many diverse groups and efforts including those that aren't based in a religious foundation.
Indeed, to some degree I think anyone who's honest with their investment of time in the Way has to balance the kinds of things you're saying there and come to some conclusions sky.
This has to be done outside the "it's still the Word and the Word is true no matter what happens" paradigm.
To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way.
Yikes. I've posted before the most distressing thing I remember seeing was a Region/Limb Boss at a Corps meeting who had "missed" a call in the week before and was desperate to get the "notes". The person with the notes was trying to tell him about it and discuss it with him and he grabbed the note paper from him and opened up his Bible, started scribbling and said "Just gimme the notes, so I can teach it, that's all I need"..... yeah, teach something you haven't put a second into thinking about, considering and weighing. Great idea, not. One idiot regurgitating the regurgitations of the previous idiot.
But yeah, again - I don't see these splinter groups as having great impact when and if they promote something "new" and it ends up being pretty much the same as what everyone else does, in practice. Doctrines that are different maybe, but the promises of "power" and "results" have to produce tangible, measurable "things". All the feel good, it-saved-me stuff is fine but you can get that in many diverse groups and efforts including those that aren't based in a religious foundation.
Yeah......my "investment" and experiences in twi cover a span of 24 years! Been there, done that........covered the gamut of responsibilities on staff
and field assignments. So, yeah....I've validated my experiences in a very personal way.
Here, let me state it this way.....back in the day, after going wow two years and seeing some prayers answered, some healings,
signs and wonders......I fully expected being corps/staff and around the trustees would be a "mountaintop experience." My
suspicions to the contrary were summoned during my inresidence years.....some red flags and indoctrination. After my corps
graduation and years on staff.....hqtrs only confirmed it. Seeing the trustees up close and personal was a HUGE disappointment
to what I had projected them to be.
Around 1980, I really thought that twi 'might' break free from the man-made religion that brought oppression. When 'Word in
Culture' was hitting its stride.....and artists, writers, sculptors, inventors, musicians, craftsmen, builders, etc. were
able to break out individually....I thought to myself FINALLY, IT CAN HAPPEN. Simply put, I believed that any ministry built
on a man would crumble....whereas, unleashed 'christ-in' individuals would flourish with God-given power. All those scriptures
that point towards idolatry and man-made traditions and serving man......I saw at hq.
Around 1981-82, twi clamped down and stopped the individualism.
Corps grads started dispersing......and seeking higher education.
Those who stayed....only saw more indoctrination.
In 1985, wierwille died......and soon the exodus ensued.
Long, long story short......after exiting twi, and later finding Waydale & GS.....I saw that I wasn't alone. Others had seen
the same things. Delving into wierwille's past....his "snowstorm accounts" and staying on church payroll until 1957 and checking
his India itinerary boastings and Dr. I.S. Williams who translated at the Jain Convention and the plagairism allegations and
the blue book discrepancies and dying of cancer and etc,etc..........I think that I've validated, for myself, what parts to keep
and what to toss.
Maybe that "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness" worked after all?
For years, after Elvis left the planet, the market was flooded with Elvis impersonators. Now, as time marches on, many of these impersonators no longer have what it takes to look or sound like the original. Can you steady yourself with a walker and swivel your hips at the same time? Probably quite a few of them are already eating jelly doughnuts with the big E-Man in the sky. And, the younger generation of impersonators has no first hand memory to serve as a reference to draw upon. I guess the parallel to TWI and its splinters should be obvious.
There will always be an Elvis impersonator, doing his schtick at Barney's Beer Garden on New Year's Eve, working for jelly doughnuts and pizza pie. But, like The Way we remember from days gone by, it will never be quite the same....And that's a good thing.
To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way.
This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well.
quote: ..........I think that I've validated, for myself, what parts to keep
and what to toss.
Skyrider. You've actually KEPT something from twi??? This is big news.
"This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well."
Yep.
A person's gotta go with what they know.
A lot of the information Wayfers cling to so tenaciously isn't in the fabric of their lives. It's just information. Much of the non essential stuff falls away over time or changes.
I accept some things - the distance to say, Jupiter from earth - as true but they don't really matter to me in a practical way. Whatever the distance is, is fine with me.
The distance to say, the nearest gas station when I'm low on petrol - that matters to me. A variation of 50 miles would make a difference. If it's close when I get there - I care.
A lot of my own beliefs are like that when it comes to my Christianity.
When the rubber meets the road, experience is essential, vital and required.
Wayfers have as much religious theology as any other Christian, and probably MORE if they do not want or need any experiential validation -
Excepting of course that they feel like abundant winners, and operating All Nyne All the Time and stuff like that - but if they don't need any real-time, experiential, on the ground validation to believe what they believe...well, it's all academic to them, ain't it?
Socks, so right, no doubt that's why there is so much in the NT about being DOERS of the word, not just HEARERS. When we DO what it says, we get the results - we gain the experience - we learn - we can take on more stuff. Make it real in our lives.
Wayfer thinking is so much "knowing" and not building on the real experience of "doing" - on parsing every word (and pretending to parse Greek or Hebrew) to draw out supposed nuances -then "teaching" how to apply - whereas the real skill of it is actually doing.
For instance, it says: if you have two coats, give to the person who has none.
Meaning: both more, and less, than that.
Give of your surplus - not just your surplus overcoats. Don't hoard. Look out for other people - and other people's needs. Be willing and ready to share.
THEN (when you give your surplus) you can expand your experience to include the experience the real joy of helping a person in need.
AND you can overcome your poverty-thinking, your fear of not having enough.
THEN you will "be enlarged" not just in this area of life, but in others too.
That's a thousand times more important than merely knowing the scripture that says "give."
BUT it has to come from the heart. We can challenge ourselves to believe the scriptures to grow in all areas of life (and many did, as newbie believers) (it was a daily challenge to me to catch the train!! How God helped me there!!!!) but being forced to do anything only turns our "experiences" into grudging and unprofitable miserable "works" and lessens the "experience."
Our mighty leaders, especially the top bracket, didn't demonstrate that in their lives. A bowl of candy on the desk isn't the same as living and giving generously ... Giving surplus gifts away (LCM once gave away a shedload of knicknacks to my in rez WC) - isn't kind really, when many of those gifts were more or less demanded from others in the first place.
They told the inrez Corps that we would have plenty of challenges to rise to the word.
Yeah, right. Many of them were "engineered" by causing unnecessary stress on the Corps.
You sleep-deprive people enough - they will be snappy with each other. Problems will arise. Then we need to seek "forgiveness" and "forbearance."
You set people to spy on each other and demand "reporting back" - that breeds anxiety and suspicion, not confidence.
You criticize and complain enough and don't acknowledge ability, talent or initiative - ...
Whereas, in fact, it is the gentleness of God that draws us. Not His pressure-cooker beating down.
(Just to mix a few metaphors.)
Now that's an experience I didn't get in the Corps.
It comes from current dealings with a client who hoards and hoards, and is terrified to throw anything away – old newspapers, birthday, Christmas and visiting cards from 15 years ago, looks like every letter anyone ever wrote to her, clothes in a trunk she hasn’t opened in 10 years, at least 50 pairs of shoes, food way past its use-by date.
I asked if I could give some of the surplus clothing and food to a homeless charity.
No, she would rather hoard to herself.
She purports to be a Christian and has sought and received loads of Christian counseling and has all these Christian books about living, giving, mending relationships, be a friend, overcoming worry and fear, etc.
But she doesn’t DO any of the stuff in her books.
So she doesn’t get the fullest experience of God’s love in her life.
And she doesn’t get the healing she clearly so desperately seeks.
And she wonders why she still has problems.
Be DOERS of the Word, not just HEARERS.
ALLOW yourself to experience God at work in your life.
I did hear that CFFM was doing a lot to try and heal old wounds. I used to listen to their sermons, can’t hack it any more. Since then I’ve heard less favorable things about CFFM.
I also think there are a lot of WC out there who are still genuinely trying to help other people. Small fellowships in their homes. Are they splinters, or “just” real fellowships?
When is a splinter a splinter? Only when it causes hurt? When it expands beyond a home fellowship? When it gets a hierachy?
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Steve Lortz
Nowadays, it's Teen Mania and Acquire the Fire.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
PFAL on Twitter, maybe? With RHST on Kindle? Buy your required reading on TWI-Bay?
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waysider
The Way is the center of the universe!
Bwahahahahahahaha!
All the rest are just cold celestial bodies, endlessly circling in mindless orbit.
....or maybe a bunch of filthy flies, circling a festering dung heap. I so often confuse the two.
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skyrider
Once again......as always, the youth are highly prized.
Re-name it, re-package it, dress it up, dress it down,
put a uniform on him, put a sign in her hands, pitch a tent,
occupy space, military enlistment, religious recruitment,
schemes and dreams, scams and scums, rightly or wrongly,
......the youth are always targeted.
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OperaBuff
Ours is a youth-based culture today. Growing up to wise maturity is not the solid base and goal of our culture anymore. It's all about being and acting young and hip, having no wrinkles and skinny bodies and doing anything and everything to attain self-satisfaction. I agree with what you are saying, but I think it's a lot worse than what you state. The youth are being targeted; they are also being idolized and manipulated to the detriment of our culture as a whole.
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WordWolf
Actually, I think your news is OLD and no longer CORRECT.
For a few decades, the US has been catering specifically to the youth culture,
and older folks have been trying to pretend they weren't getting older.
(How many women have had lots of 39th Birthdays?)
That's also true of some other countries- in Japan, once you're out of school,
your life is pretty much considered devoid of fun, so everybody looks at high school
even more than college as "glory days." Women in their 30s and 40s can be found
emulating schoolgirls in mannerisms in order to find some hope of landing a
husband. (As I've read-I've never actually been there.) In Brazil, it's not so
much about youth as about looks- the country's economy seems to revolve around
plastic surgery and there's HOMELESS getting surgery and paying on installment.
(I SWEAR I'm not making that up.)
However, TO A DEGREE, that has CHANGED. The main reason it changed?
The Baby Boomers are growing OLDER. So, the target demographics for a lot of things
has shifted with them over decades. Yes, there's a lot of kids who are conspicuous
consumers, and they're the first to embrace a lot of new technology, but a lot of
people are trying to re-target those in their 40s and older.
(Comic books were once targeted towards children, and then teenagers. Now, there's
been a lot of story changes to return stories and characters to where they were
IN THE 1970's- when Baby Boomers were reading them, and watching cartoons.
Someone pointed out the childhood of the Baby Boomers is recreated on radio
stations every Christmas, and "a tradition" is anything Baby Boomers grew up with.
Similarly, movies are doing the same. We're seeing adaptations of 70s television
shows (Starsky and Hutch, Dukes of Hazzard, the Avengers) and stories that show
older people in more central roles (Space Cowboys could not have worked as a movie
back in the 1970s.) There's a LOT of people getting older, and television shows
are targeting them as well in demographics, plus all the media. Hey, corporations
want your money, so if you're older, they'll try to appeal to you with "older"
products.
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skyrider
Yeah, every splinter has a psalm, a doctrine, a revelation, an interpretation.....
....a class, a website, a facebook account, a twitter following.
:)
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socks
U.S. demographics in 2011? These #'s are debatable but useful.
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html
http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
One might say that the bustin' size of Baby Boomers who (understandably) want to live longer, better and retain the qualities of life enjoyed by a younger mind and body are driving today's emphasis on youth. The want to be young, fit into their old size jeans and retain all the good of what they remember about themselves, knowing now what they didn't know then...
I think of that every time I hear and watch a TV commercial. In the 50's and 60's it was commercially verboten for TV commercials to be loud, aggressive, intrusive. The read was that those who had money - the older generation who worked all day - wanted to relax, chill, be at home watching the tube. That's changed over time obviously - today we hear the recycling of older music, mixed with newer technology. It's a fascinating development, the way the old is not that different than the new and what's new today contains such a huge volume of reference to the BB's past.
Yet I think the gap is there - it may be meaningful for the BB's to hear and see their own past relived now, seemingly older, wiser but still vigorous and vibrant - yet it's really not on the radar of the 20 somethings, who can appreciate it but aren't living it (or living it again).
The Evangelical history in the U.S. the last couple hundred years is also a way to view what's happened - that and the various distinctions between Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism over the years.
To me, the concept of "splinter" groups in the Way is a very minute part of a very small segment of a much larger picture we can view many different ways, smaller cuts of a small pie that's getting smaller every year.
Without trying to predict the future I don't see their platform as powerful enough to differentiate them out of the 'crowd' of available religions, churches, faiths, sects and societies.
Figure - Christianity has a basic message and a lot of storefronts all over the world.
If "a" group comes out of the gate one year advertizing new! different! better! powerful! versions.....................there will need to be a delivery on the promises at some point, or it will fade back into the background of everything else.
Look at the Way Nash of the 60's and 70's - if someone never "got" the results or had anything at all to show for what they were doing then they eventually modified what they were doing. Sooner or later, some modification had to be made.
Even those who say they're still just doin' what they were doing 30 years ago aren't - none of these splinter groups are doing what the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's, doctrine has changed or been "improved", practices and rituals are different. Similar but very different.
I don't think they're all bad by any means - it's a free country. I don't have a vested interest in them being good, bad, right or wrong. People do a lot of weird, perfectly legal things that only a few are interested in.
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skyrider
And......none of the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's what they SAID they were doing.
Not once....did I ever see vpw, harry or ermal walk by the spirit of God....you know, those other
six top-tier manifestations. None. Nada. Zip.
When our corps group spent "trustee time" with Ermal and Dorothy....she shared stories with us
about how the ministry was so broke in the early years that when guests were invited over, she
would serve coffee and toast cut in triangles and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.
And....Harry stretched his nickels as far as possible.
To me.....I've heard these SAME STORIES from my grandparents and uncles. Any mystique that I once
had about the "trustees".........is long gone.
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socks
Indeed, to some degree I think anyone who's honest with their investment of time in the Way has to balance the kinds of things you're saying there and come to some conclusions sky.
This has to be done outside the "it's still the Word and the Word is true no matter what happens" paradigm.
To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way.
Yikes. I've posted before the most distressing thing I remember seeing was a Region/Limb Boss at a Corps meeting who had "missed" a call in the week before and was desperate to get the "notes". The person with the notes was trying to tell him about it and discuss it with him and he grabbed the note paper from him and opened up his Bible, started scribbling and said "Just gimme the notes, so I can teach it, that's all I need"..... yeah, teach something you haven't put a second into thinking about, considering and weighing. Great idea, not. One idiot regurgitating the regurgitations of the previous idiot.
But yeah, again - I don't see these splinter groups as having great impact when and if they promote something "new" and it ends up being pretty much the same as what everyone else does, in practice. Doctrines that are different maybe, but the promises of "power" and "results" have to produce tangible, measurable "things". All the feel good, it-saved-me stuff is fine but you can get that in many diverse groups and efforts including those that aren't based in a religious foundation.
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skyrider
Yeah......my "investment" and experiences in twi cover a span of 24 years! Been there, done that........covered the gamut of responsibilities on staff
and field assignments. So, yeah....I've validated my experiences in a very personal way.
Here, let me state it this way.....back in the day, after going wow two years and seeing some prayers answered, some healings,
signs and wonders......I fully expected being corps/staff and around the trustees would be a "mountaintop experience." My
suspicions to the contrary were summoned during my inresidence years.....some red flags and indoctrination. After my corps
graduation and years on staff.....hqtrs only confirmed it. Seeing the trustees up close and personal was a HUGE disappointment
to what I had projected them to be.
Around 1980, I really thought that twi 'might' break free from the man-made religion that brought oppression. When 'Word in
Culture' was hitting its stride.....and artists, writers, sculptors, inventors, musicians, craftsmen, builders, etc. were
able to break out individually....I thought to myself FINALLY, IT CAN HAPPEN. Simply put, I believed that any ministry built
on a man would crumble....whereas, unleashed 'christ-in' individuals would flourish with God-given power. All those scriptures
that point towards idolatry and man-made traditions and serving man......I saw at hq.
Around 1981-82, twi clamped down and stopped the individualism.
Corps grads started dispersing......and seeking higher education.
Those who stayed....only saw more indoctrination.
In 1985, wierwille died......and soon the exodus ensued.
Long, long story short......after exiting twi, and later finding Waydale & GS.....I saw that I wasn't alone. Others had seen
the same things. Delving into wierwille's past....his "snowstorm accounts" and staying on church payroll until 1957 and checking
his India itinerary boastings and Dr. I.S. Williams who translated at the Jain Convention and the plagairism allegations and
the blue book discrepancies and dying of cancer and etc,etc..........I think that I've validated, for myself, what parts to keep
and what to toss.
Maybe that "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness" worked after all?
.
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waysider
The other six?????
As far as I can tell, VP never got too far beyond a looped repetition of "Lo Shanta La Maka See Tay"!
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skyrider
I seem to remember it as......"Yo Sho MeDa Monee Wy Doncha"
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waysider
Well, I'll be darned.
I guess that must be the "interpretation" part I never heard him deliver.
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skyrider
It's the ole subliminal messaging within the "interpretation" that few see.
The inflection point is on the word 'MONEY'
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waysider
AHA!
This proves he was a phoney.
In the Intermediate Class, he said that the interpretation can never address a specific situation.
( Although, I did once hear an "interpretation" that went something like this:
"My precious little ones, cut your hair and get jobs.")
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waysider
For years, after Elvis left the planet, the market was flooded with Elvis impersonators. Now, as time marches on, many of these impersonators no longer have what it takes to look or sound like the original. Can you steady yourself with a walker and swivel your hips at the same time? Probably quite a few of them are already eating jelly doughnuts with the big E-Man in the sky. And, the younger generation of impersonators has no first hand memory to serve as a reference to draw upon. I guess the parallel to TWI and its splinters should be obvious.
There will always be an Elvis impersonator, doing his schtick at Barney's Beer Garden on New Year's Eve, working for jelly doughnuts and pizza pie. But, like The Way we remember from days gone by, it will never be quite the same....And that's a good thing.
(Thank you. Thank you very much.)
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Rejoice
This bears REPEATING!!
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johniam
quote:
To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way.
This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well.
quote: ..........I think that I've validated, for myself, what parts to keep
and what to toss.
Skyrider. You've actually KEPT something from twi??? This is big news.
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skyrider
johniam......oh, I've kept LOTS OF SCRIPTURE that twi taught.
Scriptures on idolatry, seducers, covetousness, pride, evil, vain worship, traditions of men,
adultery, drunkenness, striker, brawler, twofold the child of hell, etc. etc.......EXCEPT,
I more fully understand that these scriptures APPLY TO THE HIERARCHY OF TWI.
On the other hand.....scriptures about the blood-sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, Savior, Redeemer,
Healer, Lord, Prince of Peace, Son of God, The Promised Seed, King of kings, and Lord of lords, etc....
yeah.....I can hold on to those truths.
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socks
"This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well."
Yep.
A person's gotta go with what they know.
A lot of the information Wayfers cling to so tenaciously isn't in the fabric of their lives. It's just information. Much of the non essential stuff falls away over time or changes.
I accept some things - the distance to say, Jupiter from earth - as true but they don't really matter to me in a practical way. Whatever the distance is, is fine with me.
The distance to say, the nearest gas station when I'm low on petrol - that matters to me. A variation of 50 miles would make a difference. If it's close when I get there - I care.
A lot of my own beliefs are like that when it comes to my Christianity.
When the rubber meets the road, experience is essential, vital and required.
Wayfers have as much religious theology as any other Christian, and probably MORE if they do not want or need any experiential validation -
Excepting of course that they feel like abundant winners, and operating All Nyne All the Time and stuff like that - but if they don't need any real-time, experiential, on the ground validation to believe what they believe...well, it's all academic to them, ain't it?
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Twinky
Socks, so right, no doubt that's why there is so much in the NT about being DOERS of the word, not just HEARERS. When we DO what it says, we get the results - we gain the experience - we learn - we can take on more stuff. Make it real in our lives.
Wayfer thinking is so much "knowing" and not building on the real experience of "doing" - on parsing every word (and pretending to parse Greek or Hebrew) to draw out supposed nuances -then "teaching" how to apply - whereas the real skill of it is actually doing.
For instance, it says: if you have two coats, give to the person who has none.
Meaning: both more, and less, than that.
Give of your surplus - not just your surplus overcoats. Don't hoard. Look out for other people - and other people's needs. Be willing and ready to share.
THEN (when you give your surplus) you can expand your experience to include the experience the real joy of helping a person in need.
AND you can overcome your poverty-thinking, your fear of not having enough.
THEN you will "be enlarged" not just in this area of life, but in others too.
That's a thousand times more important than merely knowing the scripture that says "give."
BUT it has to come from the heart. We can challenge ourselves to believe the scriptures to grow in all areas of life (and many did, as newbie believers) (it was a daily challenge to me to catch the train!! How God helped me there!!!!) but being forced to do anything only turns our "experiences" into grudging and unprofitable miserable "works" and lessens the "experience."
Our mighty leaders, especially the top bracket, didn't demonstrate that in their lives. A bowl of candy on the desk isn't the same as living and giving generously ... Giving surplus gifts away (LCM once gave away a shedload of knicknacks to my in rez WC) - isn't kind really, when many of those gifts were more or less demanded from others in the first place.
They told the inrez Corps that we would have plenty of challenges to rise to the word.
Yeah, right. Many of them were "engineered" by causing unnecessary stress on the Corps.
You sleep-deprive people enough - they will be snappy with each other. Problems will arise. Then we need to seek "forgiveness" and "forbearance."
You set people to spy on each other and demand "reporting back" - that breeds anxiety and suspicion, not confidence.
You criticize and complain enough and don't acknowledge ability, talent or initiative - ...
Whereas, in fact, it is the gentleness of God that draws us. Not His pressure-cooker beating down.
(Just to mix a few metaphors.)
Now that's an experience I didn't get in the Corps.
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Twinky
Sorry, got a bit off topic there.
It comes from current dealings with a client who hoards and hoards, and is terrified to throw anything away – old newspapers, birthday, Christmas and visiting cards from 15 years ago, looks like every letter anyone ever wrote to her, clothes in a trunk she hasn’t opened in 10 years, at least 50 pairs of shoes, food way past its use-by date.
I asked if I could give some of the surplus clothing and food to a homeless charity.
No, she would rather hoard to herself.
She purports to be a Christian and has sought and received loads of Christian counseling and has all these Christian books about living, giving, mending relationships, be a friend, overcoming worry and fear, etc.
But she doesn’t DO any of the stuff in her books.
So she doesn’t get the fullest experience of God’s love in her life.
And she doesn’t get the healing she clearly so desperately seeks.
And she wonders why she still has problems.
Be DOERS of the Word, not just HEARERS.
ALLOW yourself to experience God at work in your life.
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Twinky
I did hear that CFFM was doing a lot to try and heal old wounds. I used to listen to their sermons, can’t hack it any more. Since then I’ve heard less favorable things about CFFM.
I also think there are a lot of WC out there who are still genuinely trying to help other people. Small fellowships in their homes. Are they splinters, or “just” real fellowships?
When is a splinter a splinter? Only when it causes hurt? When it expands beyond a home fellowship? When it gets a hierachy?
Maybe we need to define the term a little more.
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