I was wondering what you guys thought of it and possible good non-doctrinal responses you guys could give for me.
Thanks
Nate
I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but I will within a day or so in order to give you the feed-back you requested. My gag reflex didn't kick in while I was reading the description of Wierwille's accomplishments, but I couldn't figure out why it didn't. Back around 1987 or '88, there was a former TWI leader, a female if I remember correctly, going around the country showing the "Athletes of the Spirit" tape, using the pause and rewind buttons to carefully examine what was being said and what was being done on the stage at the same time. It was highly revealing of the evil of the production. This project reminds me of that. I look forward to parsing the teaching. Thanks!
My gag reflex didn't kick in while I was reading the description of Wierwille's accomplishments
Oh, mine went off a few times but especially at this gem.
V.P. Wierwille toiled 14 to 16 hours per day, week after week, year after year in his exploration of the truth. He traveled all over the country, going wherever he thought someone might be able to help him in his quest. As he faithfully shared what he learned with others, God enlightened Victor Paul's understanding of His truth to a degree not known since the first century church
A minor point - the addendum devoted to copyright law is interesting. Their quotation of the 1988 Berne Act - the U.S. ratified it in 1989 and they're stating it's position which is
1. that all works moving forward do not specifically require a copyright designation in or on the media it's contained in to claim unique ownership and
2. all works prior require the appropriate copyright registration with the "c" in place on the media that contains the work, in their case magnetic tape and more specifically the box or container it's stored in. (it could also be in the audio but that's blurry as it can be added later - a moot point after the U.S. signed on to the '88 resolution) and clarifying that works prior to that date are governed by the laws in place at those times, notably that the absence of a "c" symbol denotes a lack to claim ownership and that works can move into public domain without it, etc. etc.
This is a hairy topic, and not nearly as open/shut as they state, although they state their position clearly.
The entire purpose of copyright law is to protect the unique rightful ownership of a thing and provide a framework to support that. This goes round and round all the time and sophomoric discussions on the nature of ownership abound but bottom line, copyright protects. From who? and what? Therein lies the uh, conundrum in their presentation and what caught my eye.
The real question is always the same - who is the rightful owner of a "thing" - can it be proven if required? The way the laws have moved is in the direction of more clearly recognizing what's always been true, that a "thing" belongs to the person(s) who created or produced it. The purpose of the laws is to protect that ownership and apply some governance to that protection. Laws don't grant anything in this case, not really - they support, recognize, validate, etc.
From that view a challenge to the true ownership of something like the Way's SNS tapes is hilarious - it may be that they don't want to "own" them lock stock and barrel, forever, each and every one or don't care - "no harm no foul" - but it would never be correct to say that they don't "own" them as the names of the tapes themselves and the labels, not to mention the actual content, all reflect a unique ownership.
In courts lawyers can take things away from others and get decisions but they don't change the actual realities around a "thing" as to what it is, who created it, etc.
Funny too is that copyright law historically is largely driven by the means of reproduction, which could also be known as "theft" if it's reproduced by someone who doesn't own it.
Or not - someone could produce something and announce it's open to anyone to do anything they want with it. "Open source" code, "shareware" app's, are modern examples of that.
Is that what the Way did with it's SNS tapes?
I'd feel better reading it if it just said words to the effect - "the spirit of the intent for the content of the SNS tapes VPW is on were meant to be used by anyone anywhere at any time for the furtherance of the material on them and if you disagree, see you in court." That would be more honest IMO.
I just get a real LMAO off at the fact that all of the frothy language about VPW and the work and effort and blah blah is piled on a mile high, only to end with a legal-nit-twister mote-in-the-eye-writ they feel required to place to prove why they can indiscriminately use the things of The Way knowing full well the Way "owns" those tapes and the content, by rights, but they feel can do what they want legally, without The Way's permission. They just want to do what they want to do and f you, with a little legalese added to support their actions.
I just listened to the audio. Here are some of my impressions.
I loved the public personna that Wierwille projected. When I first heard about adultery, it was in the context of Martindale, and only gradually (relatively speaking) that I came to understand Martindale had been privately taught that adultery was okay by Wierwille. It was only after I had read first hand accounts here at Greasespot by survivors of Wierwille's depredations that I realized how perfectly Wierwille's public personna masked the evil attitudes of his heart.
It was only after I began studying dispensationalism myself, and how it contradicts what the Bible says about the New Covenant, that I began to see through the tissue of lies that Wierwille taught as Bible. Wierwille preached exegesis, reading the meaning OUT FROM what is written. But he practiced and taught eisegesis, reading foreign meanings INTO the scriptures.
A case in point is this teaching entitled Principles of Research.
Wierwille addresses only ONE principle of reading the scriptures, and that is: pay attention to the pronouns. Wierwille makes two disparaging remarks about formal theological training. One is that a person who has been theologically trained is not free to change his beliefs, and the other is that theological schools require students to take a course on how to apologize for being a Christian. He dresses the last one up as a joke, but the audience gets the point that he considers theological training a bad thing. He says that "this" [presumably HQ] is the only place in the world for research, and a person has to hang around to absorb it all, because it's simply their way of life at HQ. Wierwille addresses no other principles of research in the teaching.
(As an aside, currently being a student in a theological seminary, I can testify that there is much more freedom to change your beliefs in seminary than there ever was in TWI! I was never located at HQ inrez, but I can truly say that there are many places in the world vastly superior to Emporia, Gunnison and Tinnie for research!)
Wierwille says that Acts chapter 1 used to disturb him because he couldn't understand why Jesus would not have appointed another apostle to take Judas Iscariot's place if Judas had run out and hung himself immediately after the betrayal. I doubt that Wierwille was ever disturbed by the question at all. I think he got this teaching from someone else. Probably Bullinger. WordWolf is probably better able to answer that question than I am.
Wierwille used the principle of paying attention to pronouns to read Judas' presence INTO the first chapter of Acts. Judas' presence in the first part of the chapter was simply NOT IMPORTANT to Luke. Verse 2 refers to "apostles whom he [Jesus] had chosen." Wierwille says this MUST include Judas Iscariot, even though nothing in the actual language requires that. Judas might have been present, he might not have. It just doesn't say. Yet Wierwille WANTS Judas to be present, so he READS it that way.
If you notice, Wierwille frequently has the audience vocalize, to actually speak, the word that occurs in the passage of scripture. At other places, he has the audience vocalize the remainder of a slogan that he initiates. This is an element of conditioning so that the audience accepts what Wierwille is saying as something they should say their selves, and it confuses the sayings of Wierwille in their minds with the words of the Word.
At one point, talking about how badly "they" have misinterpreted (in his not so humble opinion) Acts 1, Wierwille states, "If they've blown it, why would you want to go along with that junk?" Good question. And if we have our minds in critical thinking mode, since Wierwille HAS demonstrably blown it, why would we want to go along with his junk?
At one point, Wierwille said, "The Way never said we know it all! We never will!"
Good thing he's dead, or he'd be munching on a lot of corvus corax!
I always thought it peculiar that wierwille taught the will of God out of the bible, but the more
he tried to interpret it, it seemed to become the will of weirwille. The way of wierwille was never
the way of Jesus Christ. It was the weirwille way, albeit pawned off as his own, but we all know
he stole it. Did you ever get that Steve?
From the time I first took PFAL until well after I left TWI, I wasn't particularly concerned with whether or not Wierwille had stolen PFAL. It was only after Raf started poking holes in the class that I realized there was no over-arching coherency to PFAL because Wierwille had just bodged together a pastiche of other people's work. I do remember thinking, "Well, that must of been some research he did when he was spending so many hours a day doing it. He sure doesn't spend that much time at it now!" Little did I realize then that he NEVER spent all those hours a day researching.
Speaking of which, I went back to the gospel of Luke to see what he had to say about Judas Iscariot after the betrayal. Luke doesn't mention Judas directly, but in chapter 24, verse 9, Luke says that the women who had gone to the tomb on the first day of the week "...returned from the sepulcher, and told all these things to the eleven..." If Wierwille had given even cursory attention to the gospel of Luke, he would have seen that Judas had bugged out before the resurrection. According to the same writer as Acts chapter 1, Wierwille's thesis that Judas was around in that chapter doesn't hold water!
Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille was a man of God in every sense of that phrase. He lived for God, walked with Him, and spoke for Him. He knew the Shepherd; and he knew how to lead others to Him. Young Victor Paul heard God's clarion call on his life, and he poured out his life in tireless service for Him. The Lord found a powerful, one-of-a-kind man of unique abilities; and V.P. Wierwille proved to have a many-faceted, power-filled ministry.
*In the first quarto of Hamlet, Polonius is named "Corambis". It has been suggested that this derives "crambe" or "crambo", derived from a Latin phrase meaning "reheated cabbage", implying "a boring old man" who spouts trite rehashed ideas....source
Speaking of which, I went back to the gospel of Luke to see what he had to say about Judas Iscariot after the betrayal. Luke doesn't mention Judas directly, but in chapter 24, verse 9, Luke says that the women who had gone to the tomb on the first day of the week "...returned from the sepulcher, and told all these things to the eleven..." If Wierwille had given even cursory attention to the gospel of Luke, he would have seen that Judas had bugged out before the resurrection. According to the same writer as Acts chapter 1, Wierwille's thesis that Judas was around in that chapter doesn't hold water!
Love,
Steve
I wemt back to review the accounts. The account of "doubting Thomas" needs to be accounted for
in any understanding of who was where.
John 20:24 (KJV)
"24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
So, when 11 are mentioned, is it because JUDAS is missing, or because THOMAS is missing?
If you read it ASKING, then the most direct read of the verses suggests the following:
A) Judas committed suicide as outlined in the Gospels.
B) Jesus appeared to "the 11", in at least 2 instances, the first without Thomas,the second WITH Thomas.
That counts as his appearing to them.
C) Jesus spent the remaining time with "the 11", then ascended from among them.
D) Then the 11 held a meeting with the other disciples who'd been among them since Jesus began
his earthly ministry, and decided on their own to promote a 12th to replace Judas
(which was prophesied they'd do.) Matthias was chosen.
the idea of Judas being present is all speculation and there's no evidence for it-
in fact, if one doesn't ASSUME it's true, the verses would never suggest it.
Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille was a man of God in every sense of that phrase. He lived for God, walked with Him, and spoke for Him. He knew the Shepherd; and he knew how to lead others to Him. Young Victor Paul heard God's clarion call on his life, and he poured out his life in tireless service for Him. The Lord found a powerful, one-of-a-kind man of unique abilities; and V.P. Wierwille proved to have a many-faceted, power-filled ministry.
Twi needs to up its game if they want to be in North Korea's league. Back in 1998, when North Korea's
"Great Leader" Kim Il Sung died, their Constitution was revised to rename him as "Eternal President."
Then, President Kim's son Kim Jong Il became the country's longtime "Dear Leader."
Last week, with Kim Jong Il's death, his son, Kim Jong-Un is now the "Great Successor."
Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille was a man of God in every sense of that phrase. He lived for God, walked with Him, and spoke for Him. He knew the Shepherd; and he knew how to lead others to Him. Young Victor Paul heard God's clarion call on his life, and he poured out his life in tireless service for Him. The Lord found a powerful, one-of-a-kind man of unique abilities; and V.P. Wierwille proved to have a many-faceted, power-filled ministry.
reminds me of a story.. they had a monument singing the praises of some guy who discovered warp drive..
and all he was, was a drunken lecher who wanted to bleed enough money off of the project to retire comfortably in a tropical climate, with loads of naked women..
I was wondering what you guys thought of it and possible good non-doctrinal responses you guys could give for me.
I've got a deal for whomever wrote that paean of praise to Dr Wierwille. I'll let stand every word of your work, if you write a paean of praise of equal length and heart for the 17-year-old girl in my former twig fellowship whom Dr Wierwille raped on his motor coach in 1975. Her name is Mary T. If you would like to talk with her first, let me know and I'll see if she's interested in being interviewed.
I was wondering what you guys thought of it and possible good non-doctrinal responses you guys could give for me.
>>What I thought of the article: Cringe, run away and hide. Or bang the silly head of the author against the wall. Couldn't read it, just skipped over the oily phrases.
>>Non-doctrinal response: Give 'em a link to GSC ! Maybe to the Actual errors in PFAL paper on the front page. Few words, just a link saying: Some interesting additional info here: (link)
From the time I first took PFAL until well after I left TWI, I wasn't particularly concerned with whether or not Wierwille had stolen PFAL. It was only after Raf started poking holes in the class that I realized there was no over-arching coherency to PFAL because Wierwille had just bodged together a pastiche of other people's work. I do remember thinking, "Well, that must of been some research he did when he was spending so many hours a day doing it. He sure doesn't spend that much time at it now!" Little did I realize then that he NEVER spent all those hours a day researching.
Speaking of which, I went back to the gospel of Luke to see what he had to say about Judas Iscariot after the betrayal. Luke doesn't mention Judas directly, but in chapter 24, verse 9, Luke says that the women who had gone to the tomb on the first day of the week "...returned from the sepulcher, and told all these things to the eleven..." If Wierwille had given even cursory attention to the gospel of Luke, he would have seen that Judas had bugged out before the resurrection. According to the same writer as Acts chapter 1, Wierwille's thesis that Judas was around in that chapter doesn't hold water!
Love,
Steve
VPW used Bullinger's Companion Bible footnotes and apendices for Judas, also if I remember correctly it is talked about in How to Enjoy the Bible
I was wondering what you guys thought of it and possible good non-doctrinal responses you guys could give for me.
Thanks
Nate
This does bring back memories. I enjoyed hearing his voice again. I didn't agree with all he taught but I felt he did well in turning on many to Christ. I'd like to remember him this way.
this is a bit off topic but i was watching Ernest Angley last night and their trio called Rock of Ages sang a song in a C&W/Bluegrass style but reminded me of the video The Renewed Mind(though that was not the topic) and Angley came on, speaking in a style similar to Wierwille with same type of inflections. Oh, the tape that Nate refered to had Claudette Royal singing and then a song I never heard before called "The Lord's Lullaby". Wonder why that song never got recorded by Way productions. anyway Happy New Year.
I listened to about seven or eight minutes. It felt to me like there was a very serious narcissistic overtone. In my life these days, I write and a think in terms of what will make sense to my readers or listeners. I may describe (I DO describe) things I've observed and what it means to the people I am writing or speaking to. But Victor was always speaking about what he was doing. The implied meaning being that he was doing the will of God. The subtext was adoration of the MOG rather than empowerment of his listeners.
VPW used Bullinger's Companion Bible footnotes and apendices for Judas, also if I remember correctly it is talked about in How to Enjoy the Bible
I don't know about Judas. But he used Bullinger's material for about everything else.. 4 crucified, the day J.C. died, 3 days, 3 nights.. 2 entries, etc. etc.
Why?
I think mainly because he could regurgitate a Scholar's works, it gave him the APPEARANCE of a scholar.
That's vicster's version of "research" I guess..
"our *research* is soooo exciting.."
no. research is not. research is (or can be) BORING. It's supposed to be slow, meticulous, no jumping to conclusions or skipping steps..
Discovery, on the other hand can be rapid. like the vicster "discovering" the works of Bullinger, Kenyon, Lamsa, Leonard, Stiles, etc..
Discovery really does not necessarily require a lot of self-discipline..
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Steve Lortz
I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, but I will within a day or so in order to give you the feed-back you requested. My gag reflex didn't kick in while I was reading the description of Wierwille's accomplishments, but I couldn't figure out why it didn't. Back around 1987 or '88, there was a former TWI leader, a female if I remember correctly, going around the country showing the "Athletes of the Spirit" tape, using the pause and rewind buttons to carefully examine what was being said and what was being done on the stage at the same time. It was highly revealing of the evil of the production. This project reminds me of that. I look forward to parsing the teaching. Thanks!
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
Oh, mine went off a few times but especially at this gem.
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chockfull
What I think of it? The writeup is overt idolatry towards a cult leader.
What were VPW's "principles of research"?
1) See material you can use
2) Copy it
3) Leave off the source attributes
4) Call it your own
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WordWolf
I'll chime in with something substantial on the write-up as soon as I have time.
As for the recording, I'll see what I can do when/if I have time.
It's always good exercise in critical thinking and analysis whenever I read the
kool-aid drinking material, decades after I had a chance to think for myself.
It's like reading about day-to-day life in Jonestown.
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socks
By any other name, a fan page.
A minor point - the addendum devoted to copyright law is interesting. Their quotation of the 1988 Berne Act - the U.S. ratified it in 1989 and they're stating it's position which is
1. that all works moving forward do not specifically require a copyright designation in or on the media it's contained in to claim unique ownership and
2. all works prior require the appropriate copyright registration with the "c" in place on the media that contains the work, in their case magnetic tape and more specifically the box or container it's stored in. (it could also be in the audio but that's blurry as it can be added later - a moot point after the U.S. signed on to the '88 resolution) and clarifying that works prior to that date are governed by the laws in place at those times, notably that the absence of a "c" symbol denotes a lack to claim ownership and that works can move into public domain without it, etc. etc.
This is a hairy topic, and not nearly as open/shut as they state, although they state their position clearly.
The entire purpose of copyright law is to protect the unique rightful ownership of a thing and provide a framework to support that. This goes round and round all the time and sophomoric discussions on the nature of ownership abound but bottom line, copyright protects. From who? and what? Therein lies the uh, conundrum in their presentation and what caught my eye.
The real question is always the same - who is the rightful owner of a "thing" - can it be proven if required? The way the laws have moved is in the direction of more clearly recognizing what's always been true, that a "thing" belongs to the person(s) who created or produced it. The purpose of the laws is to protect that ownership and apply some governance to that protection. Laws don't grant anything in this case, not really - they support, recognize, validate, etc.
From that view a challenge to the true ownership of something like the Way's SNS tapes is hilarious - it may be that they don't want to "own" them lock stock and barrel, forever, each and every one or don't care - "no harm no foul" - but it would never be correct to say that they don't "own" them as the names of the tapes themselves and the labels, not to mention the actual content, all reflect a unique ownership.
In courts lawyers can take things away from others and get decisions but they don't change the actual realities around a "thing" as to what it is, who created it, etc.
Funny too is that copyright law historically is largely driven by the means of reproduction, which could also be known as "theft" if it's reproduced by someone who doesn't own it.
Or not - someone could produce something and announce it's open to anyone to do anything they want with it. "Open source" code, "shareware" app's, are modern examples of that.
Is that what the Way did with it's SNS tapes?
I'd feel better reading it if it just said words to the effect - "the spirit of the intent for the content of the SNS tapes VPW is on were meant to be used by anyone anywhere at any time for the furtherance of the material on them and if you disagree, see you in court." That would be more honest IMO.
I just get a real LMAO off at the fact that all of the frothy language about VPW and the work and effort and blah blah is piled on a mile high, only to end with a legal-nit-twister mote-in-the-eye-writ they feel required to place to prove why they can indiscriminately use the things of The Way knowing full well the Way "owns" those tapes and the content, by rights, but they feel can do what they want legally, without The Way's permission. They just want to do what they want to do and f you, with a little legalese added to support their actions.
I guess they had a good Teacher.
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Steve Lortz
I just listened to the audio. Here are some of my impressions.
I loved the public personna that Wierwille projected. When I first heard about adultery, it was in the context of Martindale, and only gradually (relatively speaking) that I came to understand Martindale had been privately taught that adultery was okay by Wierwille. It was only after I had read first hand accounts here at Greasespot by survivors of Wierwille's depredations that I realized how perfectly Wierwille's public personna masked the evil attitudes of his heart.
It was only after I began studying dispensationalism myself, and how it contradicts what the Bible says about the New Covenant, that I began to see through the tissue of lies that Wierwille taught as Bible. Wierwille preached exegesis, reading the meaning OUT FROM what is written. But he practiced and taught eisegesis, reading foreign meanings INTO the scriptures.
A case in point is this teaching entitled Principles of Research.
Wierwille addresses only ONE principle of reading the scriptures, and that is: pay attention to the pronouns. Wierwille makes two disparaging remarks about formal theological training. One is that a person who has been theologically trained is not free to change his beliefs, and the other is that theological schools require students to take a course on how to apologize for being a Christian. He dresses the last one up as a joke, but the audience gets the point that he considers theological training a bad thing. He says that "this" [presumably HQ] is the only place in the world for research, and a person has to hang around to absorb it all, because it's simply their way of life at HQ. Wierwille addresses no other principles of research in the teaching.
(As an aside, currently being a student in a theological seminary, I can testify that there is much more freedom to change your beliefs in seminary than there ever was in TWI! I was never located at HQ inrez, but I can truly say that there are many places in the world vastly superior to Emporia, Gunnison and Tinnie for research!)
Wierwille says that Acts chapter 1 used to disturb him because he couldn't understand why Jesus would not have appointed another apostle to take Judas Iscariot's place if Judas had run out and hung himself immediately after the betrayal. I doubt that Wierwille was ever disturbed by the question at all. I think he got this teaching from someone else. Probably Bullinger. WordWolf is probably better able to answer that question than I am.
Wierwille used the principle of paying attention to pronouns to read Judas' presence INTO the first chapter of Acts. Judas' presence in the first part of the chapter was simply NOT IMPORTANT to Luke. Verse 2 refers to "apostles whom he [Jesus] had chosen." Wierwille says this MUST include Judas Iscariot, even though nothing in the actual language requires that. Judas might have been present, he might not have. It just doesn't say. Yet Wierwille WANTS Judas to be present, so he READS it that way.
If you notice, Wierwille frequently has the audience vocalize, to actually speak, the word that occurs in the passage of scripture. At other places, he has the audience vocalize the remainder of a slogan that he initiates. This is an element of conditioning so that the audience accepts what Wierwille is saying as something they should say their selves, and it confuses the sayings of Wierwille in their minds with the words of the Word.
At one point, talking about how badly "they" have misinterpreted (in his not so humble opinion) Acts 1, Wierwille states, "If they've blown it, why would you want to go along with that junk?" Good question. And if we have our minds in critical thinking mode, since Wierwille HAS demonstrably blown it, why would we want to go along with his junk?
At one point, Wierwille said, "The Way never said we know it all! We never will!"
Good thing he's dead, or he'd be munching on a lot of corvus corax!
Love,
Steve
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Human without the bean
I always thought it peculiar that wierwille taught the will of God out of the bible, but the more
he tried to interpret it, it seemed to become the will of weirwille. The way of wierwille was never
the way of Jesus Christ. It was the weirwille way, albeit pawned off as his own, but we all know
he stole it. Did you ever get that Steve?
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Steve Lortz
From the time I first took PFAL until well after I left TWI, I wasn't particularly concerned with whether or not Wierwille had stolen PFAL. It was only after Raf started poking holes in the class that I realized there was no over-arching coherency to PFAL because Wierwille had just bodged together a pastiche of other people's work. I do remember thinking, "Well, that must of been some research he did when he was spending so many hours a day doing it. He sure doesn't spend that much time at it now!" Little did I realize then that he NEVER spent all those hours a day researching.
Speaking of which, I went back to the gospel of Luke to see what he had to say about Judas Iscariot after the betrayal. Luke doesn't mention Judas directly, but in chapter 24, verse 9, Luke says that the women who had gone to the tomb on the first day of the week "...returned from the sepulcher, and told all these things to the eleven..." If Wierwille had given even cursory attention to the gospel of Luke, he would have seen that Judas had bugged out before the resurrection. According to the same writer as Acts chapter 1, Wierwille's thesis that Judas was around in that chapter doesn't hold water!
Love,
Steve
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waysider
I loved this part:
The Man Of God:
Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille was a man of God in every sense of that phrase. He lived for God, walked with Him, and spoke for Him. He knew the Shepherd; and he knew how to lead others to Him. Young Victor Paul heard God's clarion call on his life, and he poured out his life in tireless service for Him. The Lord found a powerful, one-of-a-kind man of unique abilities; and V.P. Wierwille proved to have a many-faceted, power-filled ministry.
Reminds me of the lyrics to Prince Rupert Awakes by King Crimson.
Prince Rupert Awakes
Farewell the temple master's bells
His kiosk and his black wormseed
Courtship solely of his word
With Eden guaranteed.
For now Prince Rupert's tears of glass
Make saffron sabbath eyelids bleed
Scar the sacred tablet wax
On which the Lizards feed.
Wake your reasons' hollow vote
Wear your blizzard season coat
Burn a bridge and burn a boat
Stake a Lizard by the throat
Go *Polonius or kneel
The reapers name their harvest dawn
All your tarnished devil's spoons
Will rust beneath our corn.
Now bears Prince Rupert's garden roam
Across his rain tree shaded lawn
Lizard bones become the clay -
And there a Swan is born
Wake your reasons' hollow vote
Wear your blizzard season coat
Burn a bridge and burn a boat
Stake a Lizard by the throat
Gone soon Piepowder's moss-weed court
Round which upholstered Lizards sold
Visions to their leaden flock
Of rainbows' ends and gold
New tales Prince Rupert's peacock brings
Of walls and trumpets thousand fold
Prophets chained for burning masks
And reels of dream unrolled ..
*In the first quarto of Hamlet, Polonius is named "Corambis". It has been suggested that this derives "crambe" or "crambo", derived from a Latin phrase meaning "reheated cabbage", implying "a boring old man" who spouts trite rehashed ideas....source
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WordWolf
I wemt back to review the accounts. The account of "doubting Thomas" needs to be accounted for
in any understanding of who was where.
John 20:24 (KJV)
"24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
So, when 11 are mentioned, is it because JUDAS is missing, or because THOMAS is missing?
If you read it ASKING, then the most direct read of the verses suggests the following:
A) Judas committed suicide as outlined in the Gospels.
B) Jesus appeared to "the 11", in at least 2 instances, the first without Thomas,the second WITH Thomas.
That counts as his appearing to them.
C) Jesus spent the remaining time with "the 11", then ascended from among them.
D) Then the 11 held a meeting with the other disciples who'd been among them since Jesus began
his earthly ministry, and decided on their own to promote a 12th to replace Judas
(which was prophesied they'd do.) Matthias was chosen.
the idea of Judas being present is all speculation and there's no evidence for it-
in fact, if one doesn't ASSUME it's true, the verses would never suggest it.
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johnj
This bio of VPW is so full of praise and admiration... you'd think that VP must have written it about himself!
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skyrider
Twi needs to up its game if they want to be in North Korea's league. Back in 1998, when North Korea's
"Great Leader" Kim Il Sung died, their Constitution was revised to rename him as "Eternal President."
Then, President Kim's son Kim Jong Il became the country's longtime "Dear Leader."
Last week, with Kim Jong Il's death, his son, Kim Jong-Un is now the "Great Successor."
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skyrider
Update: Kim Jong-Un is now hailed as the "Supreme Commander" of North Korea's military.
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Ham
reminds me of a story.. they had a monument singing the praises of some guy who discovered warp drive..
and all he was, was a drunken lecher who wanted to bleed enough money off of the project to retire comfortably in a tropical climate, with loads of naked women..
Does this last post fulfill your request?
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OperaBuff
I've got a deal for whomever wrote that paean of praise to Dr Wierwille. I'll let stand every word of your work, if you write a paean of praise of equal length and heart for the 17-year-old girl in my former twig fellowship whom Dr Wierwille raped on his motor coach in 1975. Her name is Mary T. If you would like to talk with her first, let me know and I'll see if she's interested in being interviewed.
Do we have a deal?
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Twinky
>>What I thought of the article: Cringe, run away and hide. Or bang the silly head of the author against the wall. Couldn't read it, just skipped over the oily phrases.
>>Non-doctrinal response: Give 'em a link to GSC ! Maybe to the Actual errors in PFAL paper on the front page. Few words, just a link saying: Some interesting additional info here: (link)
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waysider
You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
VPW used Bullinger's Companion Bible footnotes and apendices for Judas, also if I remember correctly it is talked about in How to Enjoy the Bible
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Eagle
This does bring back memories. I enjoyed hearing his voice again. I didn't agree with all he taught but I felt he did well in turning on many to Christ. I'd like to remember him this way.
Eagle
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
this is a bit off topic but i was watching Ernest Angley last night and their trio called Rock of Ages sang a song in a C&W/Bluegrass style but reminded me of the video The Renewed Mind(though that was not the topic) and Angley came on, speaking in a style similar to Wierwille with same type of inflections. Oh, the tape that Nate refered to had Claudette Royal singing and then a song I never heard before called "The Lord's Lullaby". Wonder why that song never got recorded by Way productions. anyway Happy New Year.
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Rocky
I listened to about seven or eight minutes. It felt to me like there was a very serious narcissistic overtone. In my life these days, I write and a think in terms of what will make sense to my readers or listeners. I may describe (I DO describe) things I've observed and what it means to the people I am writing or speaking to. But Victor was always speaking about what he was doing. The implied meaning being that he was doing the will of God. The subtext was adoration of the MOG rather than empowerment of his listeners.
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Ham
I don't know about Judas. But he used Bullinger's material for about everything else.. 4 crucified, the day J.C. died, 3 days, 3 nights.. 2 entries, etc. etc.
Why?
I think mainly because he could regurgitate a Scholar's works, it gave him the APPEARANCE of a scholar.
That's vicster's version of "research" I guess..
"our *research* is soooo exciting.."
no. research is not. research is (or can be) BORING. It's supposed to be slow, meticulous, no jumping to conclusions or skipping steps..
Discovery, on the other hand can be rapid. like the vicster "discovering" the works of Bullinger, Kenyon, Lamsa, Leonard, Stiles, etc..
Discovery really does not necessarily require a lot of self-discipline..
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WordWolf
Sometimes I found the slow, meticulous study to be exciting.
Not always, but sometimes.
When I read I Corinthians 15 in an Interlinear for the first time,
I understood it better than in the KJV. So, I reread it slower, and
tried to express how exciting it was to the people around me at that
moment. (I might as well have been speaking Swahili. I may have
read the translation FROM the Greek, but it was still "Greek" to them.)
vpw's excitement was in finding the work of others to memorize and pretend
it was HIS OWN work. Mine is often in learning something new, and the
difference there should be obvious. He PRETENDED that was his interest,
but frauds are commonplace.
=========================
In other news,
I don't know if the definition of "research" as "reading again",
as in "research" means "rereading everything with vpw's name on it"
began with vpw,
but it certainly was INSINUATED to a number of people,
and after leaving twi, found a LEADER who left who suggested
rereading vpw's books were always to be recommended over actually
doing our own study and finding something on our own.
I ignored that, because I agreed with the idea that we were supposedly
learning to use the Concordance and read for ourselves, learn the
principles of Bible research, etc, all so we could actually APPLY them.
I imagine he'd give a different answer now, he's had a few decades
to come to his senses, and lots of data has been made available.
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skyrider
On another level.....I equated 'research' to the application of different variables,
like a 'research laboratory' where tests and substances and applications are performed
to measure results. To me, applying these biblical truths to real life situations and
witnessing the outcomes was invaluable learning.
Whether written in the scriptures, written on tablets or written on the tables of one's heart,
the spirit within bears witness of the testimony of His grace and mercy. In twi, wierwille
pushed his 'study the word' mantra exclusively at the detriment of the spirit within.
Head knowledge.....heart knowledge.....application knowledge.
Phl 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now
much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Without leadership and open books around constantly .......working out my "own wholeness" is a
lifetime research project. And, good riddance to wierwille's limited approach to 'rightly dividing
the truth and standing approved before God.'
.
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