Are "things" really that different in S.O.W.E.R.S.? Perhaps they are if you consider they have no research dept. but from their web site VPW the grandson looks as if he's copying the way corps program etc.
Trying to relive the (not so) golden years.
TWI has GSC to expose it. I wonder what S.O.W.E.R.S. will have to expose it, 20 years from now.
TWI and VPW deceived themselves into thinking that they drove the growth of TWI.
Actually, they stole people from the Jesus movement (as did other cults like the Chilsren of God). But VP/TWI sapped life from people rather than giving and sustaining it, so it self-destructed.
Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
quote: Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people? These people have no free will to choose anything for themselves? If they go to ONE Jesus movement fellowship they are forever owned by the group? Forever obligated to go to only Jesus movement fellowships? If that's true...
Then the Jesus movement stole people from Protestant denominations, who earlier stole people from the Catholic church. Not buyin' that one.
quote: Oh, lookie! They are gonna have W@lt3r Cumm1ns teach at the 2012 SOWERS young adult advance.
I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi. It was great to see him. For the last 10 years or so he's been working with a guy named Danny Bader.
Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?
Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?
If you read what I said....
One of the appeals of the splinters
then you would understand that I am not making a blanket statement regarding all splinter groups. No doubt there are other points of interest various splinter groups offer that aren't relevant to what I posted. And in typical trolling fashion you leave me with a loaded question. My information comes from personal involvement with 3 splinter groups, which you would know if you read what I said.
quote: Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?
Taking something out of context is also a tactic of manipulators who don't really care to understand. They just like to confront... It sure gets old...
quote: Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people? These people have no free will to choose anything for themselves? If they go to ONE Jesus movement fellowship they are forever owned by the group? Forever obligated to go to only Jesus movement fellowships? If that's true...
Then the Jesus movement stole people from Protestant denominations, who earlier stole people from the Catholic church. Not buyin' that one.
Actually, John, he didn't say that at all. In your typical fashion, you are simply twisting words to suit your agenda.
quote: Oh, lookie! They are gonna have W@lt3r Cumm1ns teach at the 2012 SOWERS young adult advance.
I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi. It was great to see him. For the last 10 years or so he's been working with a guy named Danny Bader.
Does he still teach the same doctrinal crap we all know from our Way experience? It doesn't matter how well you teach it, crap is still crap.
Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?
From you. Here's what you said in a previous post.
"The fellowship I now attend has much the same feel as any twig I ever attended in twi."
So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people?
(snip)
You may not realize it, John, but your comment about the Jesus movement demonstrates a colossal ignorance of the history of Christianity in the 20th century United States...
The Jesus movement was much bigger, and a much more genuine movement of the Holy Spirit than TWI ever was. Even with the Trinity. The Lord Jesus Christ is still able to work better with people who believe in the Trinity than He can with people who think He's absent. Wierwille didn't so much "steal" people from the Jesus movement as he leeched them from it. Bloodsucker.
So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people?
Yes, um, THAT Jesus movement. You know, the one that featured the "Groovy Christians of Rye NY" on the cover of Life magazine. The one that VP made such a big deal out of? Yeah, that one.
The one that started with the Christian ministries of Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop that VP came in and stole? Yes, that one. It's well documented here on GSC for your reading pleasures.
I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi.
You mean he is still a walking snoozefest? That guy has to be among the most boring teachers ever. The old "renewed mind" class? The only thing keeping me awake in that was his bow tie.
I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi.
(snip)
"Does he still teach the same doctrinal crap we all know from our Way experience? It doesn't matter how well you teach it, crap is still crap."
LOL. Couldn't have said it better.
(snip)
You mean he is still a walking snoozefest? That guy has to be among the most boring teachers ever. The old "renewed mind" class? The only thing keeping me awake in that was his bow tie.
Inspector Praline: Mr Milton? You are sole proprietor and owner of the Whizzo Chocolate Company?
Milton: I am.
Praline: Superintendent Parrot and I are from the hygiene squad. We want to have a word with you about your box of chocolates entified The Whizzo Quality Assortment.
Milton: Ah, yes.
Praline: If I may begin at the beginning. First there is the cherry fondue. This is extremely nasty, but we can't prosecute you for that.
Milton: Agreed.
Praline: Next we have number four, 'crunchy frog'.
Milton: Ah, yes.
Praline: Am I right in thinking there's a real frog in here?
Milton: Yes. A little one.
Praline: What sort of frog?
Milton: A dead frog.
Praline: Is it cooked?
Milton: No.
Praline: What, a raw frog?
Milton: We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose.
TWI and VPW deceived themselves into thinking that they drove the growth of TWI.
Actually, they stole people from the Jesus movement (as did other cults like the Chilsren of God). But VP/TWI sapped life from people rather than giving and sustaining it, so it self-destructed.
Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
The Jesus movement was much bigger, and a much more genuine movement of the Holy Spirit than TWI ever was. Even with the Trinity. The Lord Jesus Christ is still able to work better with people who believe in the Trinity than He can with people who think He's absent. Wierwille didn't so much "steal" people from the Jesus movement as he leeched them from it. Bloodsucker.
Love,
Steve
Yes, "LEECHED" is a more appropriate word than "stole", and "subverted" might be better yet.
Those Jesus People were already serving God and moving among the unbelievers and converting
them and seeing miracles and practicing love the way God wanted. vpw read about them and
rushed over, eager to recruit them to his organization by impressing them. (He also wanted
no-strings sex with women, but that didn't happen.) Some were not impressed by him, some were.
(He was a dynamic speaker who used the work of several others and claimed it was all his
own work. They were naive enough to believe a man claiming to represent God to them would
not misrepresent himself and present himself fraudulently. So, they joined his group.
Before they joined, membership numbers were a slow trickle over DECADES. Once a handful
of Jesus People joined, these legitimate Christians exploded onto the scene in twi and
all its growth can be traced to THEM. Shortly after they were given a relatively free hand
in growing twi, vpw made it all about him and fired all their top Christians. Membership
continued to grow, but not exponentially. The people they'd been exposed to were now
reaching others, and so on.
The Jesus People who DIDN'T join twi made a much bigger impact on society because
they were busy with God and didn't spend time advertising a class nor an organization.
Such a move CANNOT be done now by twi NOR the splinters. There's no similar movement
of naive Christians to fool. Any Christian who hears of ANY of the groups can look
online and see the other side of the story, and having the truth side by side with
their story makes it obvious they're at least PARTLY fraudulent, lying, or badly
in error. And that's after having DECADES to improve faulty doctrines and practices
and so on. The major changes have largely been either COSMETIC or trading one error
The Jesus movement of the late 1960s and 1970s was what church history calls a "revival." That word is mangled by many today, but in the narrow sense it is a very widespread movement in which very large numbers of people come to faith, confess their sins, profess commitment to the Lord, become discipled in faith, become leaders themselves and become heavily involved in evangelism, missions, aid to the poor and worship renewal. Revivals are not controlled by any human being or organization- God is at work.
On a worldwide scope, the charismatic/Pentecostal movement from the 1960s through the present has been phenomenal, multiplying into the hundreds of millions, esp in South America, Africa and China.
Lots of people in the Jesus movement stayed within their church bodies. For example, many pastors in my church body had their faith enlivened in the Jesus movement (which means those pastors are now in their 50s and early 60s).
Other Jesus people started new church bodies. For example, although Calvary Chapel claims to be nondenominational, it is a denomination in itself, composed in the first 15 years of mostly Jesus people. Calvary Chapel music (Maranatha) was a worship renewal movement, typical of true revivals.
Note the contrast between Calvary Chapel and TWI-- TWI flamed out in 15 years, because VPW was a false teacher who sucked life out of people, while Calvary Chapel continues to go strong.
Speaking of splinter groups, has anybody heard about Dale Sides and his Liberating Ministries for Christ International lately? I looked on his website, and he now imitates Wierwille by inviting people to address him as "Dr. Dale".
My wife and I took his "Exercising Spiritual Authority" class back in the mid-'90s. It seemed like a version of PFAL stripped down to its high points, especially PFAL's themes of "dealing with the adversary" dressed up as spiritual WARFARE!
His doctrine was pretty much YOU have the authority to cast out demons!, YOU have the authority to command angels to "Bring back my money!", YOU have the authority to tell people to get healed! Not much about the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
His Believers' Bible Camp was ordaining people as if ordinations were boxes of Crackerjack for a while, until some people he ordained went off and made fools of themselves AND of Believers' Bible Camp. Then, all of a sudden "the Holy Spirit" got real picky about who He let Sides ordain, and Believers' Bible Camp changed its name to Liberating Ministries for Christ International (WHY! OH, WHY! Does every podunk spin-off of TWI call itself INTERNATIONAL!?! It's like Wierwille calling himself DOCTOR!)
I went to one of Sides "ministerial weekends," which turned out to be a series of lectures on how to set up your own incorporation as a tax-exempt organization. Talk about multi-level marketing!
During that weekend, he talked about the marketing importance of getting "denominational cover", that is, of getting certain denominations (take your pick, whichever ones you think have the largest market for your product) to endorse your "parachurch ministry" for use among their congregations.
It was shortly after that weekend, he sent out a mail telling how "the Holy Spirit" had revealed to him that it's okay to use Trinitarian terminology, even though you don't attach Trinitarian meanings to the terms, because of some gobble-de-gook about there being three members of the godhead, so the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three head gods. Never mind the fact that the word "godhead" is simply an idiosyncratic, archaic English spelling of the word "godhood" or "divinity." Sides teaches a subordinationist tritheism disguised to sound like trinitarian doctrine. At least that was what he was doing the last time his teachings came to my attention.
During the Momentus brouhaha, some of us asked Sides for help in exposing the practices of Momentus that violated the principles of Exercising Spiritual Authority, and he became remarkably reluctant to speak "evil" of any other "parachurch" ministries.
He had a disturbing practice of saying "Will you pray this prayer out loud with me?", and then inserting oaths to do this or that into the middle of the prayer. And of course, once you had made a vow, foolish or not, you were bound to fulfill it. No repentence of foolish vows, whatsoever.
My impression is that Sides has kept a very, very close control over the image of LMFCI since whatever happened at Believers' Bible Camp.
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mstar1
I always have to laugh when these groups try to tell me that they are "nothing like" TWI, or have thrown off the bad and kept the good. These splinters and keeping the form of TWI is specifically for
waysider
Even when people see it, will they believe it? Think of all the people who still can't accept the truth about The Way.
OldSkool
Sounds wonderfully tremendously electrifying! Gawd Bless you.
waysider
Trying to relive the (not so) golden years.
TWI has GSC to expose it. I wonder what S.O.W.E.R.S. will have to expose it, 20 years from now.
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OldSkool
Oh, lookie! They are gonna have W@lt3r Cumm1ns teach at the 2012 SOWERS young adult advance.
http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx
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waysider
The whole thing is like a bad penny you can't get rid of.
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krys
The answer to your question depends on what they let you see.
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waysider
Even when people see it, will they believe it? Think of all the people who still can't accept the truth about The Way.
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johnj
TWI and VPW deceived themselves into thinking that they drove the growth of TWI.
Actually, they stole people from the Jesus movement (as did other cults like the Chilsren of God). But VP/TWI sapped life from people rather than giving and sustaining it, so it self-destructed.
Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
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johniam
quote: Without being able to leech from something like the Jesus movement, splinters will never find the vitality and numbers that TWI fell upon, and squandered.
So you're saying this "Jesus movement" (whatever that is) is the rightful owner of these people? These people have no free will to choose anything for themselves? If they go to ONE Jesus movement fellowship they are forever owned by the group? Forever obligated to go to only Jesus movement fellowships? If that's true...
Then the Jesus movement stole people from Protestant denominations, who earlier stole people from the Catholic church. Not buyin' that one.
quote: Oh, lookie! They are gonna have W@lt3r Cumm1ns teach at the 2012 SOWERS young adult advance.
I saw WC in Chicago in October. He's looking real good. Lost some weight. He teaches as good as he ever did in twi. It was great to see him. For the last 10 years or so he's been working with a guy named Danny Bader.
Nothing that you describe about splinter groups is actually going on in the one I'm with. Where do you get your information from?
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OldSkool
If you read what I said....
then you would understand that I am not making a blanket statement regarding all splinter groups. No doubt there are other points of interest various splinter groups offer that aren't relevant to what I posted. And in typical trolling fashion you leave me with a loaded question. My information comes from personal involvement with 3 splinter groups, which you would know if you read what I said.
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Naten00
Is there a good review on the Author of the book The Way: Living in Love?
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Rejoice
Taking something out of context is also a tactic of manipulators who don't really care to understand. They just like to confront... It sure gets old...
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waysider
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Steve Lortz
You may not realize it, John, but your comment about the Jesus movement demonstrates a colossal ignorance of the history of Christianity in the 20th century United States...
...just sayin'...
...not very persuasive...
Love,
Steve
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waysider
I remember locking horns with the Jesus people, on many occasions, back in the early 1970's. Almost always over the Trinity.
(BTW....Most of them were very big on speaking in tongues, for whatever that bit of information is worth.)
Maybe you have to be an old cooter, like me, to appreciate what the Jesus movement was all about.
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Jbarrax
LOL. Couldn't have said it better.
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Ham
too bad he didn't stay with math..
with his style of delivery, one would have to really, really enjoy the subject matter he speaks of..
I could see him making quaint jokes in a calculus lecture or something..
maybe I could attend the young adults conference.. perhaps they have a question and answer session..
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Ham
The road out of TWI is littered with splintered groups.. I dunno. I think da road out of twi is littered with splinters..
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Steve Lortz
The Jesus movement was much bigger, and a much more genuine movement of the Holy Spirit than TWI ever was. Even with the Trinity. The Lord Jesus Christ is still able to work better with people who believe in the Trinity than He can with people who think He's absent. Wierwille didn't so much "steal" people from the Jesus movement as he leeched them from it. Bloodsucker.
Love,
Steve
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Ham
I'm trying to figure out who I am in all of this..
a Jesus person? I dunno..
or just an old burned out acid head..
burned out, no...
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Ham
The road, the road.. brings to me some kind of song..
Hey littlehawk.. glad to see you friend, at least lurking..
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chockfull
Yes, um, THAT Jesus movement. You know, the one that featured the "Groovy Christians of Rye NY" on the cover of Life magazine. The one that VP made such a big deal out of? Yeah, that one.
The one that started with the Christian ministries of Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop that VP came in and stole? Yes, that one. It's well documented here on GSC for your reading pleasures.
You mean he is still a walking snoozefest? That guy has to be among the most boring teachers ever. The old "renewed mind" class? The only thing keeping me awake in that was his bow tie.
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WordWolf
"Does he still teach the same doctrinal crap we all know from our Way experience? It doesn't matter how well you teach it, crap is still crap."
Inspector Praline: Mr Milton? You are sole proprietor and owner of the Whizzo Chocolate Company?
Milton: I am.
Praline: Superintendent Parrot and I are from the hygiene squad. We want to have a word with you about your box of chocolates entified The Whizzo Quality Assortment.
Milton: Ah, yes.
Praline: If I may begin at the beginning. First there is the cherry fondue. This is extremely nasty, but we can't prosecute you for that.
Milton: Agreed.
Praline: Next we have number four, 'crunchy frog'.
Milton: Ah, yes.
Praline: Am I right in thinking there's a real frog in here?
Milton: Yes. A little one.
Praline: What sort of frog?
Milton: A dead frog.
Praline: Is it cooked?
Milton: No.
Praline: What, a raw frog?
Milton: We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose.
Praline: That's as maybe, it's still a frog.
====================================================================
====================================================================
[Over the past few decades, almost all of us have raised our expectations
as to what is acceptable. A few decades ago, I made an effort to show up
where he was teaching something live. If not for the hype I went in sipping,
it would have been a chance to hang out with other Christians and sit through
something of little relevance and passing interest. Back then, still sipping
the hype, I went home and described it as "an excuse to have him teach".
A few decades later, I've swept my brain clear of the "gee whiz" factor and
would evaluate purely on the basis of the material and the delivery.
If he hasn't improved DRAMATICALLY (and our eyewitness account says he has not)
then he'd be just as big a yawn as before-only moreso.
Even if you use the FINEST dead frogs and dress them up, you're still dealing
with a dead frog.]
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WordWolf
Yes, "LEECHED" is a more appropriate word than "stole", and "subverted" might be better yet.
Those Jesus People were already serving God and moving among the unbelievers and converting
them and seeing miracles and practicing love the way God wanted. vpw read about them and
rushed over, eager to recruit them to his organization by impressing them. (He also wanted
no-strings sex with women, but that didn't happen.) Some were not impressed by him, some were.
(He was a dynamic speaker who used the work of several others and claimed it was all his
own work. They were naive enough to believe a man claiming to represent God to them would
not misrepresent himself and present himself fraudulently. So, they joined his group.
Before they joined, membership numbers were a slow trickle over DECADES. Once a handful
of Jesus People joined, these legitimate Christians exploded onto the scene in twi and
all its growth can be traced to THEM. Shortly after they were given a relatively free hand
in growing twi, vpw made it all about him and fired all their top Christians. Membership
continued to grow, but not exponentially. The people they'd been exposed to were now
reaching others, and so on.
The Jesus People who DIDN'T join twi made a much bigger impact on society because
they were busy with God and didn't spend time advertising a class nor an organization.
Such a move CANNOT be done now by twi NOR the splinters. There's no similar movement
of naive Christians to fool. Any Christian who hears of ANY of the groups can look
online and see the other side of the story, and having the truth side by side with
their story makes it obvious they're at least PARTLY fraudulent, lying, or badly
in error. And that's after having DECADES to improve faulty doctrines and practices
and so on. The major changes have largely been either COSMETIC or trading one error
for another (Momentus, personal prophecy, etc.)
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johnj
The Jesus movement of the late 1960s and 1970s was what church history calls a "revival." That word is mangled by many today, but in the narrow sense it is a very widespread movement in which very large numbers of people come to faith, confess their sins, profess commitment to the Lord, become discipled in faith, become leaders themselves and become heavily involved in evangelism, missions, aid to the poor and worship renewal. Revivals are not controlled by any human being or organization- God is at work.
On a worldwide scope, the charismatic/Pentecostal movement from the 1960s through the present has been phenomenal, multiplying into the hundreds of millions, esp in South America, Africa and China.
Lots of people in the Jesus movement stayed within their church bodies. For example, many pastors in my church body had their faith enlivened in the Jesus movement (which means those pastors are now in their 50s and early 60s).
Other Jesus people started new church bodies. For example, although Calvary Chapel claims to be nondenominational, it is a denomination in itself, composed in the first 15 years of mostly Jesus people. Calvary Chapel music (Maranatha) was a worship renewal movement, typical of true revivals.
Note the contrast between Calvary Chapel and TWI-- TWI flamed out in 15 years, because VPW was a false teacher who sucked life out of people, while Calvary Chapel continues to go strong.
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Steve Lortz
Speaking of splinter groups, has anybody heard about Dale Sides and his Liberating Ministries for Christ International lately? I looked on his website, and he now imitates Wierwille by inviting people to address him as "Dr. Dale".
My wife and I took his "Exercising Spiritual Authority" class back in the mid-'90s. It seemed like a version of PFAL stripped down to its high points, especially PFAL's themes of "dealing with the adversary" dressed up as spiritual WARFARE!
His doctrine was pretty much YOU have the authority to cast out demons!, YOU have the authority to command angels to "Bring back my money!", YOU have the authority to tell people to get healed! Not much about the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
His Believers' Bible Camp was ordaining people as if ordinations were boxes of Crackerjack for a while, until some people he ordained went off and made fools of themselves AND of Believers' Bible Camp. Then, all of a sudden "the Holy Spirit" got real picky about who He let Sides ordain, and Believers' Bible Camp changed its name to Liberating Ministries for Christ International (WHY! OH, WHY! Does every podunk spin-off of TWI call itself INTERNATIONAL!?! It's like Wierwille calling himself DOCTOR!)
I went to one of Sides "ministerial weekends," which turned out to be a series of lectures on how to set up your own incorporation as a tax-exempt organization. Talk about multi-level marketing!
During that weekend, he talked about the marketing importance of getting "denominational cover", that is, of getting certain denominations (take your pick, whichever ones you think have the largest market for your product) to endorse your "parachurch ministry" for use among their congregations.
It was shortly after that weekend, he sent out a mail telling how "the Holy Spirit" had revealed to him that it's okay to use Trinitarian terminology, even though you don't attach Trinitarian meanings to the terms, because of some gobble-de-gook about there being three members of the godhead, so the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three head gods. Never mind the fact that the word "godhead" is simply an idiosyncratic, archaic English spelling of the word "godhood" or "divinity." Sides teaches a subordinationist tritheism disguised to sound like trinitarian doctrine. At least that was what he was doing the last time his teachings came to my attention.
During the Momentus brouhaha, some of us asked Sides for help in exposing the practices of Momentus that violated the principles of Exercising Spiritual Authority, and he became remarkably reluctant to speak "evil" of any other "parachurch" ministries.
He had a disturbing practice of saying "Will you pray this prayer out loud with me?", and then inserting oaths to do this or that into the middle of the prayer. And of course, once you had made a vow, foolish or not, you were bound to fulfill it. No repentence of foolish vows, whatsoever.
My impression is that Sides has kept a very, very close control over the image of LMFCI since whatever happened at Believers' Bible Camp.
Love,
Steve
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