Fear of God.

WordWolf · December 15, 2011

We were (most of us) exposed to some error-ridden doctrine in twi about what the Bible actually says,

and what it SUPPOSEDLY says, and what it means. One of the many topics was our attitude towards God,

and what it should and should not be like. This is on my mind now, so I'm starting a topic on it.

Let's get clear on our terms.

By modern usage, "fear" is an emotion which is a negative response-

we "fear" something because we "fear" some negative consequence

(whether by legal punishment, violence by human, animal, nature, etc)

and have an emotional reaction to the possible presence of that which

we "fear".

dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear

1.

a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. Synonyms: foreboding, apprehension, consternation, dismay, dread, terror, fright, panic, horror, trepidation, qualm. Antonyms: courage, security, calm, intrepidity.

2.

a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights. Synonyms: phobia, aversion; bête noire, bogy, bogey, bugbear. Antonyms: liking, fondness, penchant, predilection.

3.

concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone's safety.

5.

something that causes feelings of dread or apprehension; something a person is afraid of: Cancer is a common fear.

ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=fear

[The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]

n.

1.

a. A very unpleasant or disturbing feeling caused by the presence or imminence of danger: Our fears intensified as the storm approached.

b. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in constant fear of attack; saved as much as he could for fear of losing his job.

2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.

3. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.

=============================================

========================================

Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language.

That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage"

but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally

means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".)

There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy.

Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or

as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that

operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that.

(For that matter, words CHANGE in meaning, too. The KJV uses "prevent" in

I Thessalonians where "precede" is the modern translation of the Greek word,

and the word "gay" has moved around a LOT in the 20th century. For that matter,

if you're in 2 different countries, the English word "fag" can have VERY

different meanings, and the word "faggot" used to be a pile of wood.

I saw an online signature calling someone a "gay fag", then pointing out they

just called them a "happy cigarette.")

The phrase "fear of God" is often rendered "REVERENCE" in modern versions.

I think the word "AWE" might be better. The word "FEAR" meant a STRONG EMOTION

without specifying it was NEGATIVE-but it was STRONG.

This makes sense to me.

Look- as a parent, you want your child to have a deep RESPECT for you, and take

you very, very seriously. This means they'd want to PLEASE you, and feel bad

when they knew that you'd told them to do something, they did the opposite,

and they suffered some consequence. (They took the car out when you said

they weren't ready and damaged the car, they drank underage and now are feeling

like a knife is cutting through their brain.)

Some people really hang on the words of some celebrity or other notable, and

will freak out if they disagree. They'll immediately run to do something to

conform to that person's specifications- get a haircut, change their wardrobe,

whatever. They really respect that celebrity, and hold them in awe.

Heck, in twi we knew people who ran out and conformed all the time-

-mogs have suits? Lose the jeans and get a suit

-mogs have little briefcases? I'm off to the briefcase store

-lcm tries to grow a little moustache? I'm developing a little coffee stain under my nose

lcm and vpw took the place of awe, respect and reverence that God Almighty was supposed

to get all along.

Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel

bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my

shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the

consequences I worked hard to earn.

===========================================

Does God Almighty recommend "fear"-the MODERN MEANING of the term, as a default position

for the Christian? If so, it should be reflected in Scripture.

Now, then, a number of usages of "fear" or "fear of God" in the KJV are AMBIGUOUS- they

MIGHT mean a "fear" in the modern sense, or a deep REVERENCE. Are there any usages

which reflect a meaning which is UNambiguous, where the modern "fear" would make no sense?

Yes.

Acts 2:42-43

King James Version (KJV)

42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Luke 7:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Luke 1:64-65

King James Version (KJV)

64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.

65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.

Matthew 28:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

======================================

Myself,

I'm waiting for a good explanation as to exactly how one can have

"fear and great joy" at the same time-

if the MODERN MEANING of the word "fear" is meant.

You CAN'T feel GREAT JOY while experiencing fears.

If a person has a phobia of something, and is experiencing great joy,

and you introduce the object of the phobia,

then the person will STOP feeling great joy and REPLACE that feeling with FEAR.

If one takes into account that "fear" in 1611 meant something it no longer means in 2011,

then it makes sense.

Another thing vpw mangled was actually UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S WRITTEN by insisting on

a book whose origins were in 1611- the King James Version-

and not putting in the time to account for 400 years of definitions CHANGING,

let alone new research coming to light, correcting bad translations entirely.

One word was "fill" and MIStranslated "REPLENISH", and vpw makes a doctrine based

on the KJV's 1611 rendering, without checking the Hebrew it was translated from.

Another was "prevent"- but we actually did the research and understood that it

would NOW read "preceed". Proverbs warns one not to "decline" to an evildoer's

ways- odd advice to give if one wants to AVOID them- if "decline" meant now what

it meant in 1611, and wasn't the opposite of an INCLINE. (i.e. Don't lower yourself

to the level of that evil.)

We likewise should not shackle ourselves to a KJV rendering of things.

Other versions have taken these things into account, and

"fear" sometimes is not translated as "fear" now.

==============================

Ephesians 5:21

King James Version (KJV)

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:21

New International Version (NIV)

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

2 Corinthians 7:1

King James Version (KJV)

2 Corinthians 7

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 7:1

New International Version (NIV)

2 Corinthians 7

1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Romans 3:18

King James Version (KJV)

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Romans 3:18

Good News Translation (GNT)

18 nor have they learned reverence for God.

=================================================

As for the idea that RESPECTING God will mean you can sin, then whoever is saying that

really doesn't understand RESPECT at all. If someone you RESPECT tells you how to act,

you don't give their instructions all the regard a dog gives a fire hydrant-

you carry them out because you respect them.

God is so much greater and deserves a far deeper RESPECT than that-

although even that is alien to a twi experience.

===========================

BTW,

just as some Bibles distinguish between "REVERENCE" and what the KJV called "fear"

back in 1611, and some Christians do,

some dictionaries will note the exception among the meanings of the word "fear".

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=fear

4. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a deity.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear

3

: to have a reverential awe of <fear God>

dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear

4.

reverential awe, especially toward God: the fear of God. Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration.

Naten00 · December 15, 2011

The issue is not with English it is with the greek! The word φοβος is the greek word for fear at least thats what they teach you when learning greek. Granted when you look up the word it says respect although not used in scripture because I don't see the context in many of the passages as respect...

There are words for respect in the greek like απονεμω meaning to cause respect to treat with respect (with respect, as desvered) Str 642.

1791. ἐντροπή entropē; from 1788; respect, shame:—shame(2).

Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

Here are some words for REVERENCE

δέος deos; from δείδω deidō (to fear); fear, reverence:—awe(1).

Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

εὐλαβέομαι eulabeomai; from 2126; to be cautious:—reverence(1).

Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

εὐλάβεια eulabeia; from 2126; caution:—piety(1), reverence(1).

Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

2152. εὐσεβής ĕusĕbēs, yoo-seb-ace´; from 2095 and 4576; well-reverent, i.e. pious:—devout, godly.

. A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

2318. θεοσεβής thĕŏsĕbēs, theh-os-eb-ace´; from 2316 and 4576; reverent of God, i.e. pious:—worshipper of God.

Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

5091. τιμάω timaō, tim-ah´-o; from 5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by impl. to revere:—honour, value.

Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

It seems to me that if God wanted it to be something other than fear he could of found a less confusing word. Unless it isn't confusing and when it says fear it says and I am sorry for the pun... "Says what it means".... If only VPW took his own advice.

When Jesus said "fear the one who has the power to throw you into hell and destroy it" He dosen't stop there. Jesus reiterates the point "Yes fear Him"... This isn't some respect or awe. None of the other words really even make sense in that story. As I illuded above with the word φοβος Jesus is saying it literally fear God...

Another thing to look at are peoples reactions to God or the glorified Jesus. I can't think of anyone who didn't tremble before them... John for example fell down as if dead... This is the one whom Jesus Loved. Jesus said do not be afraid. It wouldn't make since to say "Do not respect".. Johns natural reaction like everyone else in the bible was to fall down in fear of God. Why do I think I am going to act any different than the apostle John post pentecost? It just seems arrogant to assume anything other than that.

Naten00 · December 15, 2011

In proverbs it says

Proverbs 19:23

The fear of the LORD leads to life, and whoever has it rests satisfied; he will not be visited by harm.

Our ultimate peace is that we really know who God is... We can't understand who God is until we fear Him... Not in he will strike me down for cussing but for his holiness. As Isaiah did... "I am a man with unclean lips".

No one deserves salvation... No one..... as good old Romans 3 points out... This is where the fear comes from.... an acknowledgement of who we are and who God is. We should fear him... It makes since...

The issue is that we will never understand the Love of God until we know God. We won't know the distance we are form Him until we look into the mirror and see our own sin... That is what repentance is... The hard key element I see missing from TWI... An acknowledgement of our own sin and falling down to our knees in total naked abandonment saying I can't do it and he is faithful to forgive... What a Joy it is that we have forgiveness.

I think Steve said something about being in the right relationship... He is so right... We can't have the right relationship when we understand where we stand or stood. That will cause fear, sadness, grief, guilt....

Because I fear this God who loves me enough to die for me (not here to argue that it is what I believe) I now understand the power of my God and who is ultimately in control... It isn't about me and never was... It is about this being who is so much more than me. Yet this God whom I fear Loves me and He protects me even when it seems all is lost. Oh, do I find peace and Joy in it. I don't understand why fearing God that will sometimes bring me to my knees but I find peace and comfort in it.

WordWolf · December 15, 2011

"The issue is not with English it is with the greek!"

The issue is not with the Greek, it is with the English.

Koine Greek is a dead language, and so the words in Koine Greek don't change in meaning.

What changes in meaning is the English it's translated into. English has changed a LOT in 400 years.

The Koine Greek word has remained the same, but the English word has become victim to the

perfectly normal, everyday process of "the specialization of language."

Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language.

That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage"

but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally

means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".)

There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy.

Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or

as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that

operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that.]

www.quora.com/John-Bagnall/Word-Definitions/answers

How important are word definitions to the process of communication?

John Bagnall, Wordsmith

Ultimately, clear definitions (that are understood and agreed upon by all parties) are essential to successful communication.

If I use words believing them to mean one thing, but you understand them to mean another, we have a recipe for confusion. At best, our misunderstanding may simply cause some brief and harmless embarrassment that can be quickly resolved. At worst, there is the potential for deep and lasting damage.

This is all the more so for the fact that what words mean and what the user means when he or she uses them may also be at odds.

In 1953, 19-year-old Derek Bentley was executed in Wandsworth Prison, London for his part in the murder of a policeman. Bentley had shouted to his co-defendent, who was carrying a gun, ''Let him have it!'' The case hung on whether Bentley was instructing his younger accomplice to hand over the pistol or to fire it; the court decided it was the latter.

www.quora.com/What-are-the-words-that-have-been-so-abused-in-their-use-that-their-original-meaning-is-gone

What are the words that have been so abused in their use that their original meaning is gone?

In other words, what are some good examples of words definitions gone crazy?

John Bagnall, Wordsmith

It's a moot point whether the shift in meaning of a word over time is the result of abuse per se as opposed to an entirely natural process of gradual evolution (known as language drift).

Examples of usages that have changed over different periods of time (and as the result of different influences and circumstances) include:

Decimate vb

now means: destroy all, devastate

did mean: kill/destroy one tenth

Gay adj (also now n)

now means: a sexual orientation

did mean: happy, free of care

Quantum adj

now means: big

did mean: small

Awesome adj

now means: stunning, wonderful, great

did mean: frightening, dreadful, weird

Aggravate vb

now means: annoy, make worse

did mean: burden, weigh down

Counterfeit n

now means: cheap, shoddy copy

did mean: perfect copy

Hopefully adv

now means: with luck, it is to be hoped that

did mean: in a hopeful manner

Fortuitous adj

now means: lucky, fortunate

did mean: by chance, accidental

Radical adj

now means: extreme, controversial

did mean: basic, fundamental

Want vb

now means: desire

did mean: lack

finally:

Defecate vb

did mean: purify, cleanse

now means: well, you decide....

===================================

Ok, the concept I was referring to is more often called LANGUAGE DRIFT.

But you can see it happens all the time, as long as a language is spoken-a "living" language.

A "dead" language doesn't change.

"The word φοβος is the greek word for fear at least thats what they teach you when learning greek. Granted when you look up the word it says respect although not used in scripture because I don't see the context in many of the passages as respect..."

The Greek word "phobos" isn't the issue-that's stayed the same.

It's been translated into English as "fear" for many centuries-and THAT's the issue.

"Phobos" always meant one thing-but "fear" has DRIFTED over at least the last 400 years.

The more generalized, previous meaning was a great emotion. That applied whether the

emotion was NEGATIVE (fear, anxiety) or POSITIVE (awe, reverence).

Many passages in Scripture, it MIGHT be translated either way and an argument-whether

valid or not-can be made for either. So, let's not waste our time on pages of

what would amount to a shrugged shoulder. The passages where it could not sensibly

be a NEGATIVE emotion, but an AWE and REVERENCE, are up for discussion.

If they don't exist, than there's insufficient proof to support a claim that the

language drift has changed the meaning, and we can try to claim it's all the

CURRENT meaning of "fear" and discuss why.

Since they DO exist, the existence of at least a DIFFERENT, POSITIVE meaning in

effect in 1611 is demonstrated, and this whole "fear has always only meant one thing"

position has been successfully DISPROVEN.

(You still are free to hold a disproven, refuted belief, however- there are still

Flat Earthers and people who think vpw really heard from God in 1942.)

Acts 2:42-43

King James Version (KJV)

42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Luke 7:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Luke 1:64-65

King James Version (KJV)

64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.

65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.

Matthew 28:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Myself,

I'm waiting for a good explanation as to exactly how one can have

"fear and great joy" at the same time-

if the MODERN MEANING of the word "fear" is meant.

You CAN'T feel GREAT JOY while experiencing fears.

If a person has a phobia of something, and is experiencing great joy,

and you introduce the object of the phobia,

then the person will STOP feeling great joy and REPLACE that feeling with FEAR.

If one takes into account that "fear" in 1611 meant something it no longer means in 2011,

then it makes sense.

==========================

Now, you've admitted that the dictionaries have a definition of "reverence" in them,

but claim surprise they do. Should have read my post in its entirety before announcing

it was incorrect. I posted the examples at least once already.

Ephesians 5:21

King James Version (KJV)

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:21

New International Version (NIV)

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

2 Corinthians 7:1

King James Version (KJV)

2 Corinthians 7

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 7:1

New International Version (NIV)

2 Corinthians 7

1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Romans 3:18

King James Version (KJV)

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Romans 3:18

Good News Translation (GNT)

18 nor have they learned reverence for God.

===============================

Now, if you want to dismiss the work of the committees that completed those Bible versions,

that's your privilege. Obviously, they saw something you did not.

So, the dictionaries saw something, you don't see why.

The translation committees of at least 2 popular Bible versions saw something, but you don't.

Rather than take me to task for seeing it and not just saying

"phobos has always meant exactly one thing",

might all of us have a point?]

"There are words for respect in the greek like απονεμω meaning to cause respect to treat with respect (with respect, as desvered) Str 642.