I receive mailings.. But their still splinters.. Doing what normal splinters do. They try and insert themselves into people's lives even though no one wants them.. They harm most they touch.. Yup, nothing has changed..
LTF finished filming some boring class.. The only interesting part of it might be noticing how goofy the teacher and his "SMILE" shine and his weird hand movements.. And of course he is still hoping some "RICH" person might bless him with loads of cash so he can buy his own motorcoach, but in the meantime, he'll make do with people's handouts for plane tickets.
STFI.. Well, their still stiff.. Losing members. Still trying to stop the gaping drain hole, but not dynamic enough to make it work yet. Changing their look here and there, but nothing enough to attract newbies that are willing to stay for much.
I remember the early days of CES, when John, John and Mark were so eager to reveal the Word of God "as it had not been known since the first century" to the religious world in general. Those Christian simpletons would just have to stand in AWE of the LOGIC of Introduction to God's HeartTM (since Power for Abundant LivingTM was already taken).
They never gave any indication to their followers, but how disappointed J, J & M must have been when they came in contact with genuine biblical scholars, and those scholars asked, "Why are you trying to peddle dispensationalism, a discredited Victorian fad acceptable only among Fundamentalists?"
The only people who responded to their "outreach" were Dan Toccini of Momentus, the Personal Prophecy people, and a number of quack info-mercial producers who took the money and ran.
Well... youtube has brought their production costs down... at least for Lynn with his pasted on smile and odd hand gestures (is he signing in tongues?).
Well... youtube has brought their production costs down... at least for Lynn with his pasted on smile and odd hand gestures (is he signing in tongues?).
Love,
Steve
I used to wonder what the profoundly deaf could do, in lieu of speaking in tongues, that would give them "proof in the senses realm" and all that stuff.
My wifes uncle is apart of Spirit and Truth Fellowsihp... To me I don't see any different than TWI. FYI Don't tell them that they think they are out of the cult thinking freeliy..... while they still call me religious as they adhere to their religious dogma.
I do find it funny that on there Truth vs Tradition video on You Tube that they monitor responses. They didn't accept mine.....
My wifes uncle is apart of Spirit and Truth Fellowsihp... To me I don't see any different than TWI. FYI Don't tell them that they think they are out of the cult thinking freeliy..... while they still call me religious as they adhere to their religious dogma.
I do find it funny that on there Truth vs Tradition video on You Tube that they monitor responses. They didn't accept mine.....
When they were CES, they had an open forums discussion page. When the questions became too pointed, they shut it down. John S is the only original person left in the group, and he continues this 'pick-and-choose' mentality. I think it is called CENSURESHIP, which is part of all damaging organizations; especially cults! I have a close family member who is with them, and their blindness is 'blinding'!
Rejoice - a question for you a little off topic but related - I've gotten the impression that Schoenheit is considered their "theologian" and all around biblical "academic" authority and is largely the checkpoint for what they teach.
Outside of years and personal effort (not to be underestimated) I don't know of any academic credentials he holds. Not that he needs any but I don't see that he has ever completed any formal educational programs outside of his own study and work within the assorted Way and post Way organizations he's been affiliated with....? Are you or anyone else aware of any?
It also reads like STFI is (or was) much smaller than their business titles indicate ("CEO".....) - anyone know approx. how many members they have? Or what their yearly sales were for 2010? Sales dollars might be a better gauge of their size.
My own sense of these groups is that their membership counts have shared many of the same members, one is "with" one but also another, with a core group of single-owner members that are counted on for financial support and participation. An exception might be Geer's franchise members, who seem to be more restrictive and prefer to be single-owners of their members.
Actual growth has never been great or powerful, from what I understand and has mostly been in small fits and starts, friends of a friend, marriages and births, that kind of thing.
This can be seen in Lynn's group and online presence - youtube for instance - he has a host of videos up, and some appear to have a lot of "Comments" and activity - but if you look at the likes and dislikes of videos, they're either very low or about the same number for most of them, indicative of a core group of viewers. And the comments are usually driven by a small group, not a string of single post comments from many viewers.
So I assume they're very small, with a small number of core members and participants that are shared with other groups or churches.
Rejoice - a question for you a little off topic but related - I've gotten the impression that Schoenheit is considered their "theologian" and all around biblical "academic" authority and is largely the checkpoint for what they teach.
Outside of years and personal effort (not to be underestimated) I don't know of any academic credentials he holds. Not that he needs any but I don't see that he has ever completed any formal educational programs outside of his own study and work within the assorted Way and post Way organizations he's been affiliated with....? Are you or anyone else aware of any?
While I can't attest to any detail of where he received formal training.. I had heard him in the past tell of incidents from his college/seminary(?) years (unassociated with TWI) where he took formal theological courses and not some paper mill. I don't recall the college, but from his incidents, I would say he still holds the same view.. He thought they didn't have a clue then, and still thinks his view reigns supreme.
While I can't attest to any detail of where he received formal training.. I had heard him in the past tell of incidents from his college/seminary(?) years (unassociated with TWI) where he took formal theological courses and not some paper mill. I don't recall the college, but from his incidents, I would say he still holds the same view.. He thought they didn't have a clue then, and still thinks his view reigns supreme.
Thanks. Safe to assume the formal training dates back 30? or more years.
My own investigation into the work of ex Wayfers like Schoenheit, Lynn and a couple others is that it lacks scope and a thorough and sound methodology for research. The accumulation of data is reasonable enough on certain things but the analysis applied to it is skewed by what seems like a rush to judgment. You can't move quickly in analysis, you have to be thorough. They seem to work in a vacuum of their own heightened sense of self-importance. Some of the conclusions they come to are presented as being sound but qualified with an overall air of "this is the best we know at this time". Like their position at one time (and may still be) regarding God's "foreknowledge". I read some of it and a couple things sent to me and it was one of the largest loads of b-s--t I'd seen in at least a week, up to that time of course. I don't begrudge anyone the time and effort or the freedom to develop their own theological postulations but for them to teach this stuff from their cardboard pulpits is ludicrous. And no one but their small group of followers cares. That vacuum thingie again.
I keep my feelers out on a host of topics, issues, efforts and I never see his name come up anywhere except amongst ex Wayfers.
Rejoice - a question for you a little off topic but related - I've gotten the impression that Schoenheit is considered their "theologian" and all around biblical "academic" authority and is largely the checkpoint for what they teach.
Outside of years and personal effort (not to be underestimated) I don't know of any academic credentials he holds. Not that he needs any but I don't see that he has ever completed any formal educational programs outside of his own study and work within the assorted Way and post Way organizations he's been affiliated with....? Are you or anyone else aware of any?
It also reads like STFI is (or was) much smaller than their business titles indicate ("CEO".....) - anyone know approx. how many members they have? Or what their yearly sales were for 2010? Sales dollars might be a better gauge of their size.
My own sense of these groups is that their membership counts have shared many of the same members, one is "with" one but also another, with a core group of single-owner members that are counted on for financial support and participation. An exception might be Geer's franchise members, who seem to be more restrictive and prefer to be single-owners of their members.
Actual growth has never been great or powerful, from what I understand and has mostly been in small fits and starts, friends of a friend, marriages and births, that kind of thing.
This can be seen in Lynn's group and online presence - youtube for instance - he has a host of videos up, and some appear to have a lot of "Comments" and activity - but if you look at the likes and dislikes of videos, they're either very low or about the same number for most of them, indicative of a core group of viewers. And the comments are usually driven by a small group, not a string of single post comments from many viewers.
So I assume they're very small, with a small number of core members and participants that are shared with other groups or churches.
Where there's smoke there isn't always fire....
Socks; To my knowledge, everything you said is true. JS is relied upon as the ‘premier’ in-resident scholar, and none of them have acquired any formal seminary training. If they did, they would have first-hand understanding [at the very least] of that which they criticize as being wrong. They say they follow and live Jesus’ example, but as I read and understand...Jesus came to end 'organized' religion. It got in the way of a personal walk with God because people looked to the elders for insight.
God wants a personal familial relationship with each of us. Beyond teaching people that "God is Love, have faith and trust in Him, believe in Jesus and his teachings", the rest should be a spiritual, individual journey. I don't remember Jesus worrying about figures of speech in the Tablets, nor did he teach to go out and build formal groups. He just said to fellowship with the brethren---not create something with classes and camps and whatever.
But here they are with a CEO, a President, and a Board of Directors for gosh sakes! Is that the example of a personal family?? As I watch, STF has become extremely impersonal with their pontificating videos on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter...etc. It is very easy to say, “Thus saith the Lord when you are a self-appointed group with no accountability beyond themselves.
They also have no limited tenure, just like TWI. They say they live Jesus' example; well he was only required for three years. By example, it seems their time in 'office' is long overdrawn. They run STFI exactly like a worldly corporation, with lifetime leadership, monetary benefits, and a corporate structure where the top people are totally protected from the everyday supporter.
But here they are with a CEO, a President, and a Board of Directors for gosh sakes! Is that the example of a personal family?? As I watch, STF has become extremely impersonal with their pontificating videos on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter...etc. It is very easy to say, “Thus saith the Lord when you are a self-appointed group with no accountability beyond themselves.
They also have no limited tenure, just like TWI. They say they live Jesus' example; well he was only required for three years. By example, it seems their time in 'office' is long overdrawn. They run STFI exactly like a worldly corporation, with lifetime leadership, monetary benefits, and a corporate structure where the top people are totally protected from the everyday supporter.
Not too long after leaving TWI I was telling JAL that I had come to realize that sold out devotion to man made organizations is wrong because people should make Christ Lord and not any board of directors. I even quantified what I meant with saying that there was nothing inherently wrong with organizations but the fruit of the organization would have to stand on it's own in my opinion. I also said that it was not necessary to have an organization teach people but people should keep God and Christ first in their loyalties and then we could learn from each other, etc. The overall context was caring for one another in service to Christ versus in service to a 501-c3 non profit.
All of my ramblings were met with a blank stare and a swift change of subject. No discussion, it was just as if I were talking to a wall. Perhaps I was.
They run STFI exactly like a worldly corporation, with lifetime leadership, monetary benefits, and a corporate structure where the top people are totally protected from the everyday supporter.
Not too long after leaving TWI I was telling JAL that I had come to realize that sold out devotion to man made organizations is wrong because people should make Christ Lord and not any board of directors. I even quantified what I meant with saying that there was nothing inherently wrong with organizations but the fruit of the organization would have to stand on it's own in my opinion. I also said that it was not necessary to have an organization teach people but people should keep God and Christ first in their loyalties and then we could learn from each other, etc. The overall context was caring for one another in service to Christ versus in service to a 501-c3 non profit.
All of my ramblings were met with a blank stare and a swift change of subject. No discussion, it was just as if I were talking to a wall. Perhaps I was.
"Talking to a wall"---you probably were because his agenda is to recreate TWI by 'keeping the good but spit out the bones'! If they want a 501-c3 non profit organization, start a children's home in the example of George Mueller and trust God for resources rather than ask supporters for money. Or individually go serve the poor right in your own neighborhood by adopting a needy family and provide whatever help they need for a year at a time; then do the same for another. Oh yeah...and don't tell anyone...just do. Ah...I forgot...there is no outward, shout-from-the-rooftops praise in that.
To the best of my recollection, JS did take some courses when he was in NC. Did he get a degree? I don't believe so. MG attended Earlham for at least 2 semesters to receive some sort of credentials, but he was fired. I don't know if he finished or what he is doing now. Nor do I care.
The major players who are gone still seem to have contact with some of what is left of the staff. How big of them.
Formal training in any normal seminary would pollute their thinking and they just don't get along with Anthony Buzzard anymore.
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TrustAndObey
I receive mailings.. But their still splinters.. Doing what normal splinters do. They try and insert themselves into people's lives even though no one wants them.. They harm most they touch.. Yup, nothing has changed..
LTF finished filming some boring class.. The only interesting part of it might be noticing how goofy the teacher and his "SMILE" shine and his weird hand movements.. And of course he is still hoping some "RICH" person might bless him with loads of cash so he can buy his own motorcoach, but in the meantime, he'll make do with people's handouts for plane tickets.
STFI.. Well, their still stiff.. Losing members. Still trying to stop the gaping drain hole, but not dynamic enough to make it work yet. Changing their look here and there, but nothing enough to attract newbies that are willing to stay for much.
And now, back to our regular broadcast.
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Ham
what they really need to find, is something that really WORKS.
I don't think the formula will look quite as simple as cold fusion in a test tube..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
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waysider
The whole thing reminds me of that scene from Fantasia where the splinters from the broom keep multiplying.
HERE
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Steve Lortz
What sad, sad ends!
I remember the early days of CES, when John, John and Mark were so eager to reveal the Word of God "as it had not been known since the first century" to the religious world in general. Those Christian simpletons would just have to stand in AWE of the LOGIC of Introduction to God's HeartTM (since Power for Abundant LivingTM was already taken).
They never gave any indication to their followers, but how disappointed J, J & M must have been when they came in contact with genuine biblical scholars, and those scholars asked, "Why are you trying to peddle dispensationalism, a discredited Victorian fad acceptable only among Fundamentalists?"
The only people who responded to their "outreach" were Dan Toccini of Momentus, the Personal Prophecy people, and a number of quack info-mercial producers who took the money and ran.
Well... youtube has brought their production costs down... at least for Lynn with his pasted on smile and odd hand gestures (is he signing in tongues?).
Sobering...
Love,
Steve
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waysider
I used to wonder what the profoundly deaf could do, in lieu of speaking in tongues, that would give them "proof in the senses realm" and all that stuff.
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Twinky
Good point Waysider, never thought of that.
Just think...if you were deaf, you'd never have heard PFAL or VPW ranting on - and specifically never have heard LCM the arch-ranter goiong on.
But then - you'd've been cast out long before as having weak believing, not having been healed.
(No offence meant to any deaf people out there, not mocking you, just that organization.)
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Naten00
What are mailings? What do the acronyms mean?
My wifes uncle is apart of Spirit and Truth Fellowsihp... To me I don't see any different than TWI. FYI Don't tell them that they think they are out of the cult thinking freeliy..... while they still call me religious as they adhere to their religious dogma.
I do find it funny that on there Truth vs Tradition video on You Tube that they monitor responses. They didn't accept mine.....
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Rejoice
When they were CES, they had an open forums discussion page. When the questions became too pointed, they shut it down. John S is the only original person left in the group, and he continues this 'pick-and-choose' mentality. I think it is called CENSURESHIP, which is part of all damaging organizations; especially cults! I have a close family member who is with them, and their blindness is 'blinding'!
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socks
Rejoice - a question for you a little off topic but related - I've gotten the impression that Schoenheit is considered their "theologian" and all around biblical "academic" authority and is largely the checkpoint for what they teach.
Outside of years and personal effort (not to be underestimated) I don't know of any academic credentials he holds. Not that he needs any but I don't see that he has ever completed any formal educational programs outside of his own study and work within the assorted Way and post Way organizations he's been affiliated with....? Are you or anyone else aware of any?
Here http://www.stfonline...bout/board.html - this is still online.
it reads like he hasn't and doesn't.
It also reads like STFI is (or was) much smaller than their business titles indicate ("CEO".....) - anyone know approx. how many members they have? Or what their yearly sales were for 2010? Sales dollars might be a better gauge of their size.
My own sense of these groups is that their membership counts have shared many of the same members, one is "with" one but also another, with a core group of single-owner members that are counted on for financial support and participation. An exception might be Geer's franchise members, who seem to be more restrictive and prefer to be single-owners of their members.
Actual growth has never been great or powerful, from what I understand and has mostly been in small fits and starts, friends of a friend, marriages and births, that kind of thing.
This can be seen in Lynn's group and online presence - youtube for instance - he has a host of videos up, and some appear to have a lot of "Comments" and activity - but if you look at the likes and dislikes of videos, they're either very low or about the same number for most of them, indicative of a core group of viewers. And the comments are usually driven by a small group, not a string of single post comments from many viewers.
So I assume they're very small, with a small number of core members and participants that are shared with other groups or churches.
Where there's smoke there isn't always fire....
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TrustAndObey
While I can't attest to any detail of where he received formal training.. I had heard him in the past tell of incidents from his college/seminary(?) years (unassociated with TWI) where he took formal theological courses and not some paper mill. I don't recall the college, but from his incidents, I would say he still holds the same view.. He thought they didn't have a clue then, and still thinks his view reigns supreme.
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socks
Thanks. Safe to assume the formal training dates back 30? or more years.
My own investigation into the work of ex Wayfers like Schoenheit, Lynn and a couple others is that it lacks scope and a thorough and sound methodology for research. The accumulation of data is reasonable enough on certain things but the analysis applied to it is skewed by what seems like a rush to judgment. You can't move quickly in analysis, you have to be thorough. They seem to work in a vacuum of their own heightened sense of self-importance. Some of the conclusions they come to are presented as being sound but qualified with an overall air of "this is the best we know at this time". Like their position at one time (and may still be) regarding God's "foreknowledge". I read some of it and a couple things sent to me and it was one of the largest loads of b-s--t I'd seen in at least a week, up to that time of course. I don't begrudge anyone the time and effort or the freedom to develop their own theological postulations but for them to teach this stuff from their cardboard pulpits is ludicrous. And no one but their small group of followers cares. That vacuum thingie again.
I keep my feelers out on a host of topics, issues, efforts and I never see his name come up anywhere except amongst ex Wayfers.
Course mine doesn't either, just sayin'....
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Rejoice
Socks; To my knowledge, everything you said is true. JS is relied upon as the ‘premier’ in-resident scholar, and none of them have acquired any formal seminary training. If they did, they would have first-hand understanding [at the very least] of that which they criticize as being wrong. They say they follow and live Jesus’ example, but as I read and understand...Jesus came to end 'organized' religion. It got in the way of a personal walk with God because people looked to the elders for insight.
God wants a personal familial relationship with each of us. Beyond teaching people that "God is Love, have faith and trust in Him, believe in Jesus and his teachings", the rest should be a spiritual, individual journey. I don't remember Jesus worrying about figures of speech in the Tablets, nor did he teach to go out and build formal groups. He just said to fellowship with the brethren---not create something with classes and camps and whatever.
But here they are with a CEO, a President, and a Board of Directors for gosh sakes! Is that the example of a personal family?? As I watch, STF has become extremely impersonal with their pontificating videos on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter...etc. It is very easy to say, “Thus saith the Lord when you are a self-appointed group with no accountability beyond themselves.
They also have no limited tenure, just like TWI. They say they live Jesus' example; well he was only required for three years. By example, it seems their time in 'office' is long overdrawn. They run STFI exactly like a worldly corporation, with lifetime leadership, monetary benefits, and a corporate structure where the top people are totally protected from the everyday supporter.
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OldSkool
Not too long after leaving TWI I was telling JAL that I had come to realize that sold out devotion to man made organizations is wrong because people should make Christ Lord and not any board of directors. I even quantified what I meant with saying that there was nothing inherently wrong with organizations but the fruit of the organization would have to stand on it's own in my opinion. I also said that it was not necessary to have an organization teach people but people should keep God and Christ first in their loyalties and then we could learn from each other, etc. The overall context was caring for one another in service to Christ versus in service to a 501-c3 non profit.
All of my ramblings were met with a blank stare and a swift change of subject. No discussion, it was just as if I were talking to a wall. Perhaps I was.
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Ham
Sounds like the present government..
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Rejoice
"Talking to a wall"---you probably were because his agenda is to recreate TWI by 'keeping the good but spit out the bones'! If they want a 501-c3 non profit organization, start a children's home in the example of George Mueller and trust God for resources rather than ask supporters for money. Or individually go serve the poor right in your own neighborhood by adopting a needy family and provide whatever help they need for a year at a time; then do the same for another. Oh yeah...and don't tell anyone...just do. Ah...I forgot...there is no outward, shout-from-the-rooftops praise in that.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I believe that JS attended Gordon-Conwell campus in Charlotte, NC
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Rejoice
Do you know if he completed a full course of study, a.k.a. Bachelor's degree, or did he just take a few courses?
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Ham
Looks like a strange school..
no bachelor's degree programs? No core curriculum, like english reading or composition, mathematics, etc.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
He lived in Charlotte for a few years before moving to Indiana, took courses in Greek and Church History. Idk if he graduated or not.
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Human without the bean
Who's JS?
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Rejoice
John Schoenheit
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Tzaia
To the best of my recollection, JS did take some courses when he was in NC. Did he get a degree? I don't believe so. MG attended Earlham for at least 2 semesters to receive some sort of credentials, but he was fired. I don't know if he finished or what he is doing now. Nor do I care.
The major players who are gone still seem to have contact with some of what is left of the staff. How big of them.
Formal training in any normal seminary would pollute their thinking and they just don't get along with Anthony Buzzard anymore.
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