Over the week of 9/11/01, I was working in Wendover NV and we flew in. For the six years I worked for that company, I often flew on a quarterly basis, and I traveled with three guys in their 30s to 40s and a woman in her late 30s. I was in my late 50s early 60s (different combinations depending upon the work we needed to do). I was always, always, always frisked, checked, pulled out, my bag pulled out and ransacked, etc. The guys I traveled with never were. Never. not one time. I don't look too weird. I generally was reading a Bible. Once I spoke to another elderly lady who said she also was always picked on for searches. I thought then that perhaps the security guard kids at that time "profiled" us out because we reminded them of their grandparents and they knew we would put up with their indignities.
Recently when traveling (I do it much less for current company but I now have metal knee). One way was a gruesome full body search, but the return home was a breeze. My metal knee was no problem because they had a full body scan and they could see it was only a fake knee.
Of course I wish they would profile terrorists and be more rational with prohibitions. The rampant stupidity of the "security guards" (like confiscating military medals from war heroes) does not make me feel safer because only a sensitivity to crime could prevent another 9/11/01 from happening, and the security folk I have seen have been so muddied in their thinking that they couldn't discern a military veteran who would prevent a disaster and a terrorist who would create one.
As Socks illustrated the searches are not based upon threat but sometimes varying random standards which easily could be circumvented if someone had crime on their mind.
I pray for the skies and highways and byways to be safe. That's the best I can think of to do.
I really started giving this some thought this year when I was ahead of a guy on crutches - this is the honest to God truth. He was using metal crutches and had a pretty serious looking cast on his lower leg. I could hear him talking behind me and he'd looked online and called the airlines and wasn't able to get a human on the line. He'd gone to the airline desk and they'd told him to go through the normal line and they'd know how to handle it. Now he was there in line still asking and was going to hold up the entire line which he really didn't want to do.
First they asked him while he was in line - and this is the truth - , could he remove the metal cast....he said no. They asked him if he could walk without the crutches, he said no. They told him he had to be able to walk through the scanner or the alternative was to go through the full body scan and exam and they'd have to examine his crutches and cast. They didn't offer him a wheel chair, although I suppose if he'd asked for one they'd have gotten it. He told them he could walk, he was fine but couldn't they just look at his cast and crutches and see that when he went through the scanner what they were. They said no. He ended up heading off to the Room where he was going to have to go through an entire shake down and examination. I heard him saying "I wish I'd been told this at the airline desk" and they were telling him something about the airline desk not being the authority on it. Catch - 22 - a -go go.
Okay - I get that there has to be a process but it was more like a guessing game or 10 Questions or something. It was the fact they didn't appear to have a process for that in place that everyone involved knew and that they could immediately initiate that was weird - it didn't make me confident they knew what they were doing. They made it seem like he was doing something wrong and by not knowing what to do and asking questions he was suspect. The entire tone of both people that dealt with him was obnoxious for want of a better word.
Most of the time it's a breeze, I know what to do, do it and skeedle on to my gate. But if I stop and consider what's being done I feel less secure.
Why? Because the airport is filled with 1000's of people, well 100's anyway, that are all over the external areas of the airport from drop off to the entries to the lines in front. Nothing's secured about those areas.
Security appears to be reactionary - act on the last perceived or real threat. And not to be unkind but if I was to be completely honest many of the check point personnel don't act either mature or intelligent. In Houston couple years ago a group of them held up a security line arguing about who was getting the next break - this is the honest truth - they had to stop the line while a supervisor was called to sort it out for them. It was like the 5 Stooges Go To The Airport. The level of discussion wasn't professional to say the least, it was like listening to cranky kids. I understand that being a problem but if they don't have the break schedule worked out what else isn't?
Agreed we need to have some sort of security - but how is it delivered?
I've done a fair bit of international travel. Without doubt the security is the most unpleasant, obnoxious, unhelpful, degrading - in the US. Other security officials in other countries and in very busy airports can ask the same questions - politely. Professionally. Without getting people's backs up. Most people I know, if faced with international travel and can go via the US or some other way, will opt for another way and avoid the US. They shudder at the misery of American "security."
It is not just security - it's the immigration component as well. Under the big Welcome to America signs sit the most unwelcoming and surly officials ever. Are they selected for their grumpiness? After a long international flight which will take several hours and may cross several time zones, tired travellers are willing to cooperate but don't want the suspicious "evil eye" cast upon them by immigration officials. And these people are the "face of America" to tourists. Frankly, faced with such a welcome, I often feel like I'd like to perform a terrorist activity on them, or at least leap across their desk and kick their heads in (and I'm not a violent person, I go with the flow). Contempt breeds contempt.
If they did the things they have to do in a professional but pleasant manner, the job would still get done - but without the stale taste of resentment.
London Heathrow, for example, is extremely busy and the place bristles with security gadgets and watchful armed police officers - but the officials are polite and don't behave as if everyone were trying to do something wrong. As a result, the passengers are cooperative. And appreciative.
Some airport overseas - maybe Australia:
Airport official: "You have been randomly selected for ..."
Me: "Nah, mate, you've selected me because there isn't anybody else about and you're bored."
AO: shrugs and smiles
Me: "Let's get on with it then. What do you want me to do?"
(activity)
Me: "How does this thing work, then?"
AO: (explains)
And we have a long and pleasant discussion about security, testing devices etc.
I felt uplifted.
Probably, so did he.
Another time, my bags were searched - not in my presence - for an onward flight out of the US - I don't have a problem about that, but I did want to make sure that the breakables in it were still packed carefully. Would they let me check - they could see I had nothing in my hands? No. Would they open the bag again in front of me, and show me? No. Would they do anything to help me? No, and if I touched the contents they would search the bags again. In fact, I think they threatened to arrest me!
Weeping with tiredness, I went elsewhere, and at some other place where my bags were again allegedly checked, I found a more helpful official. This one was not American - Ozzie, Brit, something else. He opened my bag and showed me that my breakables were still packed nested in the soft things so that they wouldn't be damaged. Took less than a minute.
We flew to southern Florida and back last Memorial Day weekend. Out of Columbus, my husband flunked the full body scan and got the full body patdown, being touched where no man has ever touched him before. Turned out he had a dime and a nickel in one pants pocket no one had discovered. Apparently coins don't show up on the scanner. I on the other hand mentioned and displayed my insulin pump and breezed right through. They took a disk of cloth or paper, had me rub my hands on the pump, then rubbed the disk over my hands and took it to a machine, which told them it did not contain explosives.
On the return trip, it was I who set off major alarms, repeatedly. Suddenly remembered the pump, so they went through the same routine and I passed. Looking down as I gathered my belongings I saw what I had forgotten to remove and not one of the moderately alarmed officials had noticed. I was wearing a nice wristwatch, and that, not my pump, was what was setting off the alarm.
My mistake, Twinky. I meant if for Open. Here I'm ripping Airport Security and can't click to save me life. Can it be moved? It's a short topic although I've been in vent mode.
I've been figuring out who to send my thoughts to. I don't want to get into the airline/airport system as I don't know exactly what's at the other end. Maybe write a legislator, dunno. FAA? I hesitate to get on anyone's list.
First issue to me is the overall consistency of the systems and standards. I know it's known that's a problem so it's not new by any means. But the way it's set up now it doesn't seem to guarantee that all airports and airlines will respond the same way to the same kinds of issues.
Second is the airport itself - I think the security measures should apply to anyone entering the airport property, the buildings, check in, ticket counters. Basically if you walk in the doors for anything you're subject to a minimal amount of security review. That would support the entire effort. Why wait till you're going to your Gate? If you can get to the line to go through the flight scanners with something dangerous you're already a risk.
Third would be to establish expectations so everyone knows up front what's up - I think the overall passenger attitude is to get through the whole thing as fast as possible and that it shouldn't take a long time. I would prefer that it take more time to be honest - an additional 10 minutes per person would be about right - screen every single person going through every single time - who are you, where are you going, what are you doing and why. When bags and coats and stuff are scanned allow for time at that point for finding out exactly what is going through. That would be a more sensible approach to security IMO if we're going to do it.
I went through with a carry on electric guitar several years ago - had it in a travel bag, it had onboard electronics that require a 9 volt battery and a vibrato mechanism that has a rod that comes in and out. I took the 9 volt out, and the rod and had them separate. I expected it to be scanned separately and it was. But the person doing it didn't know exactly what they were looking for and wanted to know what the battery was for. I explained. They had to get another person to look at it who knew what it all was but he didn't actually look inside the guitar cavities to see what was in them. I expected them to want to look it over and I was prepared for that but they didn't. The guy just said oh yeah, I get it and passed me through.
This was on a flight to Los Angeles - going and coming, same thing. I know a few guitarists must come and go out of SFO and LAX with guitars so it surprised me that they didn't have a process for them. I don't think it can be assumed that because a guitar looks like a guitar that that's all it is so I'd feel better going through more review than less.
Between what's done and what I'm asked and what isn't done and not asked is a big gap IMO.
The more I read about this topic the more I go hmmm. These posts here - I'm digesting.
I've read that the most effective anti-terrorist risk management and prevention goes on outside the travel/airport context - identify the people before they try to board a plane. Makes sense.
We do need to be diligent at the airports though, much more than we are now IMO. Given the grief we all seem to go through I wouldn't complain if it seemed better informed by intelligence and technology. The stuff we do now has a lot of stupid in it from what I see.
We do need to be diligent at the airports though, much more than we are now IMO. Given the grief we all seem to go through I wouldn't complain if it seemed better informed by intelligence and technology. The stuff we do now has a lot of stupid in it from what I see.
Or.....it's being done deliberately.
Adding thousands of TSA agents, levels of bureaucracy boosts the union rolls and federal govt footprint.....and democratic votes. With higher costs and frustrated travelers, will airlines be crippled and slide into bankrupcy? Will the airline industry then NEED to be federalized? More unions....more democratic voting blocks?
One frustrated traveler wrote a blog about tsa/airline travel and directed his ire towards a submissive conditioning. He cited the conformity and numbheadedness of patting down 88-year old ladies, kids, and all without thought to patterns and profiling. Why are travelers being "victimized" by a numbnuts federal government while the Detroit "crotch-bomber" was read his miranda rights?
And yet.....our southern border agents are being reassigned leaving a porous 2,400 mile border
George Carlin wondered about some of this too....some profanity provided a jolt of clarify. He may have changed his tune later, don't know, but he makes a point or two.
Haven't flown myself since 1996, pre 9/11, but this past August my wife flew to Hartford, CT (Bradley Airport) and back. It was her first ever plane flight. She says they treated her well. Before the flight back, I went through the screening so I could be with her at the gate. I always carry a small pocket knife with me for various purposes. I forgot to leave it in the van. Bradley has it now. But it wasn't a big deal. Overall, based on what I'd heard, I was pleasantly surprised at how uninvasive it was. I suppose Bradley is a relatively small airport. I don't know when and where I'll fly again, but I won't be as concerned.
IMHO standardizing operations at airport screenings would be valueless. If everybody knows exactly what they have to watch out for...there's a big hole where unscrupulous people slide through. Surprise works to our advantage if the bad guys are kept off balance. Unfortunately, it affects us too.
One thing I've learned is that if one of the inspectors does something inappropriate, make a lot of noise to attract attention. Somebody with supervisor authority will be their sooner than you can imagine. I travel as a handicapped traveler, although my handicap is very mild when compared to others. I use a wheelchair because I can't stand for long...and I use a devise to assist my normal bodily functions.
Last time I flew, the investigator insisted I get out of the wheelchair. I said "no problem as long as you have a chair right next to me because I cannot stand more than a few seconds." They said...it won't take more than a few seconds, lifted me out of the chair and left me while they took the wheelchair for testing. When they came back I was literally on the floor because I could not stand that long.. They made me look and feel like a sub human species. I said, "Please tell me why that was necessary, this is not my wheelchair, I picked one up from your skycap at the entrance"....I was nice too. I got all kinds of mouth back....so that was that. I was lower than a worm and my 69 years of wisdom was worthless. So we get to the actual
walk through part and we already know that I can't get out of the wheelchair for long....and now they don't ask, but they take my device.....no ask...no preparation....they just yank it off me....take it for testing....and somebody pushes me through the checkpoint leaving me there to connect up with my device. It was quite a long time....and I was going into distress before I was going to get it back...so I just screamed at the top of my voice "THAT SCREENER TOOK MY LIFE SUPPORTING DEVICE AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE SHE IS OR WHERE IT IS. I JUST KEPT SHOUTING. It took maybe 3 sentences from me and I had a supervisor at my side asking me to be quiet. I said I'll be quiet when I get my device back. Everyone could see my distress but still I waited and waited....finally he came back with it. I asked him where it was and where she was and he said she took the device and brought it to be checked and then went on break. He told me he was going to find her on her break and fire her. I felt bad that somebody lost a job....however I'm glad that there were lots of other screeners around who saw and hopefully learned. BTW..they never checked my shoes.
Everybody has nightmare stories about this activity and mine is no worse than yours. The problem is us. We expect a certain degree of organization, humanity and efficiency. We treat people with respect but I've learned not to expect it back.
If you travel in and out of any large airports with any regularity johniam, you will be. There's an assumption at major airports that you will know enough to not take a knife to the Gates - and think about it - you weren't a passenger with a ticket or boarding pass - what's your intent? It's simple to you but if you step back and consider what "they" are looking for - and what is that exactly he asked? - it's not simple at all.
Yeah, I agree krys - standardized approaches have up and down sides. My thought at this time is that IF this approach to airport security is continued there needs to be a better way to accomplish it. Otherwise we end up with this mish mash we have now. To handle all eventualities in a non-standardized environment would require better technology and resources than we are putting into it now. But yeah I think you have a very good point - if it isn't one thing today it'll be another tomorrow. We don't get a lot of traction chasing down the last problem we found, it's the next one we need to know about.
Just my thoughts, I appreciate the input here. I'm thinking more about this now that I'm flying more the past couple years. I know the drills and go through without any real problems. But my little ones from time to time are really the tiny tips of a big iceberg I think.
Airport security can be, well, "disturbing" anywhere I guess. In 2006 we took a wonderfully leisure 3 1/2 week vacation to Italy and Germany. At Denver and New York I was quite pleasantly surprised by the simple movement through security at the time. At the end of our vacation we flew out of Dresden in Germany. I gave my son, who was staying, all but about 10 of my remaining euro's, walked into the airport, checked our two large bags, turned in the keys to the rental car and headed for security with our carry-on containing my ditty bag, my wife's toiletries and a few breakable souvenirs and my cameras.
I placed it on the conveyer, and we were all smiles thinking we had plenty of time to unwind and reminisce about our wonderful vacation. The first indication of concern came when the policeman kept backing up the conveyer, running it through, turning the bag, running it through again, looking sternly at me the whole time. He motioned to two other policemen (both heavily armed) to come look. I could not imagine what they were looking at. Finally they motioned to me to come to the bag scanner. "Was ist das?" they asked me, pointing at the image. I looked myself and about flipped out, They had noticed a live .45 bullet I had in the ditty bag,
Four years earlier while hiking in the mountains here in Colorado I had found the bullet. I picked it up, put it in my pocket and when I returned to camp, tossed it in my bag. I totally had forgotten it in all that time. I had several trips to Illinois by plane during that time, dealing with my mother's estate. Nobody had said a thing in any airport, not in Denver, Chicago, Minn/St.Paul then, or even New York, Frankfort or Rome on this trip. Nobody said a word on the train from Venice to Frankfurt either. Now in Dresden, I was faced with three visibly alarmed, heavily armed policemen who spoke about 1/4 the amount of English that I spoke of German. I got from them that this was considered a very serious problem in Germany, and they directed me to an office. Apparently, not only did they not like me having a loaded bullet in a carry-on bag, I came to learn that I needed a permit to have such an item anyway,
They were kind enough to assure me they wanted to get this handled in time for my wife and I to make our flight. They called some official, a Richter (judge), on the phone, who gave them some instructions. but as I sat there watching them nervously scrolling through Word documents on their computer, I wanted to know what was the problem now? "Was ist los?" He turned the computer screen towards me and pointed to the document, written in German. "Verstehst du?" (meaning "Do you understand?") "Nein", I said. I certainly did not understand enough German to sign a legal document in a foreign airport regarding an offense I did not understand.
The policeman then pointed to the title and asked, again in German, if I could understand that. "Jah, ich verstehe". Now he went back to the files in Windows Explorer, and pointed as he scrolled. I finally understood. They were not sure which file was the English version of the German document they needed me to sign for the judge. He got up and motioned for me to sit at the computer. I scrolled through the titles and finally found one that matched at least my translation of the paragraph he had showed me in German. "Deiser", I said. He smiled relieved, and hit the print button. I looked over the form and learned that I was pleading guilty to essentially a misdemeanor for possession of ammunition in a secure location (the airport). Then I saw this would be a 50 euro fine, and I had given most the last of my money to my boy.
We solved this by having the machinegun armed policeman escort me to an ATM while my wife had to stay in the office to make sure I would not run away I guess. LOL. She was rather steamed at me by now. On our return, I signed the document and put the money and the document in an envelope which was mailed to the judge. At least we got our own escort all the way to the departure gate from there! Oh, they did also confiscate the bullet. I was ready to go home. Next stop Frankfurt, where I think my reputation preceded me, as I was grilled as they looked at my passport, thoroughly patted down at the security gate, and gruffly greeted by the attendant at the departure gate. Finally we were non-stop back to the States!
Seriously though, I felt very embarrassed, and I think the poor policemen pretty much were in similar straights. The were really trying to be kind and understanding, but their lack of ability to communicate with me caused a good bit of tension. We all made it through, and I have laughed many times about it since. I hope they too have shared the story over a friendly beer with friends once or twice. I wonder if I really picked the right document out of the lineup? LOL
Here is notice of pending legislation received from Capitol Hill Prayer Partners in their "Daily Brief":
4. H.R. 3608: THE STRIP ACT REMOVES THE TITLE "OFFICER" FROM TSA PERSONNEL
House GOP looks to 'strip' TSA screeners of 'officer' title More than two dozen House Republicans introduced legislation on Thursday that would prevent the Transportation Security Agency (TSA) from calling airport screeners "officer" unless they have gone through federal law enforcement training or are otherwise eligible for federal law enforcement benefits. Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), the lead sponsor of the Stop TSA's Reach in Policy (STRIP) Act, said that TSA has essentially allowed its airport screeners to play dress up by giving them metal badges and police-like uniforms in recent years. But she said many airport screeners have no "officer" qualifications, and should have this title removed.
She also said giving airport screeners police-like uniforms has led to problems. She said in New Jersey, a screener was arrested for impersonating an officer, and a Virginia woman was raped by a screener after he approached her showing his TSA badge.
"It is outrageous that in a post 9/11 world that the American people should have to live in fear of those whose job it is to keep us safe," Blackburn said. "Congress has sat idly by as the TSA strip searches 85 year old grandmothers in New York, pats down 3 year olds in Chattanooga, and checks colostomy bags for explosives in Orlando.
"Enough is enough!" she added. "The least we can do is end this impersonation which is an insult to real cops."
The bill, H.R. 3608, has 25 Republican co-sponsors, including House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Chairman John Mica (R-Fla.).
- Pray for passage of this bill and an end to the abuses of the Transportation Security Agency (TSA).
- "May he vindicate the afflicted of the people, Save the children of the needy And crush the oppressor." (Psalm 72:4)
Reporting from Charlotte, N.C.— Rick Vetter was rushing to board the Amtrak train in Charlotte, N.C., on a recent Sunday afternoon when a canine officer suddenly blocked the way.
Three federal air marshals in bulletproof vests and two officers trained to spot suspicious behavior watched closely as Seiko, a German shepherd, nosed Vetter's trousers for chemical traces of a bomb. Radiation detectors carried by the marshals scanned the 57-year-old lawyer for concealed nuclear materials.
When Seiko indicated a scent, his handler, Julian Swaringen, asked Vetter whether he had pets at home in Garner, N.C. Two mutts, Vetter replied. "You can go ahead," Swaringen said.
The Transportation Security Administration isn't just in airports anymore. TSA teams are increasingly conducting searches and screenings at train stations, subways, ferry terminals and other mass transit locations around the country.
"We are not the Airport Security Administration," said Ray Dineen, the air marshal in charge of the TSA office in Charlotte. "We take that transportation part seriously."
The TSA's 25 "viper" teams — for Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response — have run more than 9,300 unannounced checkpoints and other search operations in the last year. Department of Homeland Security officials have asked Congress for funding to add 12 more teams next year.
George Carlin wondered about some of this too....some profanity provided a jolt of clarify. He may have changed his tune later, don't know, but he makes a point or two.
Speaking of immigration, I do believe in tight airport security though the TSA has gone overboard. Why not take our most recent legal or even undocumented immigrants, do a security check at home and from their country of origin, and allow all to stay and also allow their most immediate relatives as well, before cutting off the borders? It looks as if the borders will some day be closed and I prefer that the recent immigrants have access to their families before this happens. Just an opinion. I have spoken to Hispanic friends of mine, specifically one who was the best man at my wedding, and we agree on sensible and compassionate policy before someone puts the fences up, should that ever happen.
I'm not sure if I'll get a response because since writing my book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine, I have been passed over, even here. But God Bless anyway. I hope all is well.
Hi Eagle - really? Passed over here? For writing a book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine?
Here?
My impression of GreaseSpot Cafeterium is that if Wierwille buttered his toast on the bottom instead of the top it would be sliced, diced, researched, re researched, debated and ultimately be proven 1. wrong 2. theologically toxic and 3. insane.
And that would be for just the first 10 years after which it would be revisited for the newbies, again and again in case anyone missed it. No flaw goes unexplored here and no detail is too small to warrant attention. Big stuff? Oh yeah. So it may have just been a hiccup in the flow. Dunno.
All is well though and all who come to this thread seeking succor and solace will be accepted and given the maximum amount of license and minimum amount of abuse allowed by law. So consider yourself in, ticket punched! Welcome!
I'm also concerned about the shutting down of our borders and the effect that would have. I'm sure few in politics will truly say "shut" down but the result of clogging them with more process- dunno. My position is that the TSA and federal government still doesn't have a handle with what it's trying to do currently and I think it's due to the fact that we haven't clarified what it is something like airport security is supposed to actually accomplish other than make sure that someone doesn't carry a stick of dynamite on the plane and ask someone for a match. It's clumsy at best which wouldn't matter if it didn't slow everything down, make flying confusing and costly for everyone in time and money.
I am Hispanic, father's side all from Spain and Mexico. Still can't speak Spanish to save my life, have no accent other than West Coast Whatever, and get mixed up visually with a bag of Latin/Italian/Sun Tanned. In the winter I go pale but not Scandinavian white by any means. I have a beard, dress quite snappily and other than thin hair look about like the average Old Guy looking for his keys.
Depending on the situation I can be singled out for lots of things. I'm not that as far as I know but I'm sure that in some Neo Nazi White Supremacist Citizen Pride Klueless Kluk Klan clean sweep of our coasts I might end up in Tijuana looking for cab fair.
The lack of intelligence is a big part of the problem that I see in our security intelligence programs.
I don't trust cops to hit what they're shooting at or know when to not shoot to be honest, I certainly have reservations about the TSA and other agencies related to "national security".
Your idea sounds interesting, wonder how it could be administered?
Hi Eagle - really? Passed over here? For writing a book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine?
Here?
My impression of GreaseSpot Cafeterium is that if Wierwille buttered his toast on the bottom instead of the top it would be sliced, diced, researched, re researched, debated and ultimately be proven 1. wrong 2. theologically toxic and 3. insane.
And that would be for just the first 10 years after which it would be revisited for the newbies, again and again in case anyone missed it. No flaw goes unexplored here and no detail is too small to warrant attention. Big stuff? Oh yeah. So it may have just been a hiccup in the flow. Dunno.
All is well though and all who come to this thread seeking succor and solace will be accepted and given the maximum amount of license and minimum amount of abuse allowed by law. So consider yourself in, ticket punched! Welcome!
I'm also concerned about the shutting down of our borders and the effect that would have. I'm sure few in politics will truly say "shut" down but the result of clogging them with more process- dunno. My position is that the TSA and federal government still doesn't have a handle with what it's trying to do currently and I think it's due to the fact that we haven't clarified what it is something like airport security is supposed to actually accomplish other than make sure that someone doesn't carry a stick of dynamite on the plane and ask someone for a match. It's clumsy at best which wouldn't matter if it didn't slow everything down, make flying confusing and costly for everyone in time and money.
I am Hispanic, father's side all from Spain and Mexico. Still can't speak Spanish to save my life, have no accent other than West Coast Whatever, and get mixed up visually with a bag of Latin/Italian/Sun Tanned. In the winter I go pale but not Scandinavian white by any means. I have a beard, dress quite snappily and other than thin hair look about like the average Old Guy looking for his keys.
Depending on the situation I can be singled out for lots of things. I'm not that as far as I know but I'm sure that in some Neo Nazi White Supremacist Citizen Pride Klueless Kluk Klan clean sweep of our coasts I might end up in Tijuana looking for cab fair.
The lack of intelligence is a big part of the problem that I see in our security intelligence programs.
I don't trust cops to hit what they're shooting at or know when to not shoot to be honest, I certainly have reservations about the TSA and other agencies related to "national security".
Your idea sounds interesting, wonder how it could be administered?
Thanks, Socks. It means a lot to hear from someone. How could the program I discussed with my best man at my wedding be administered? Probably by having Congress and the President focus on it once and for all and not move to any other issue until the border issue is resolved. Doubt that would happen. But I don't want our legal immigrants hurt if they have illegal immigrants in the country and we deport them. We must make some kind of effort to say to other countries: "We are absolutely shutting our borders down. What is the most humane way of doing this?" Frankly, the input most needed and required would be from the Hispanic community and Hispanic community leaders, who would be most concerned about their immediate families. (We can't do extended families, such as cousins to cousins, etc., because then there would be no end.)
I'm not sure how many think this is a plausible solution, but I see the borders closing in the next ten years, or at least strictly under control.
Well, flew again this last week. Went fairly smooth going out - security check in etc. went quickly and without incident. Packed normally, no differences, all carry on - one bag for the bin and a backpack and a jacket.
There's a 3.4 ounce limit on aerosol and bottles with liquid - I have a 5.3 ounce aerosol spray can of a generic brand Tinactin I always take to spray in my shoes for that fresh factor. I always take it and it always goes through. Even one incident where a too large bottle of shampoo was pulled, it stayed, for whatever reasons that the Higher Intelligence Powers deemed appropriate....evrything went through on the outbound security check A OK. I didn' even think about it at this point, it was all a pretty light pack anyway.
Coming back, packed up almost identically, it got flagged and I was pulled over. The very nice Security person identified it immediately, noted the size differential and suggested I could either put the bag through baggage check on - or dump it there. I chose to dump it, it was only half full and although I had the time to go back didn't want to hassle with it. (My flight had been delayed an 1 1/2 hrs already so I wanted to get in and get on something before the night was over).
So no big deal and it was handled the way I'd expect - I wasn't treated like a criminal for just being there or peppered with salty questions about why I would bring such a thing on a trip - took about 5 minutes and we were done, the bag scanned fine and I was on my way with a wave and a smile.
So - that security check through sucks if I'm looking for a pattern, for consistency. A can size that's gone through at least 5 -6 times in the last year, didn't that time.
Eagle, I would agree. Our borders are borders. Crossing in and out for a day or a lifetime, there's process. That process can change over time, restrictions imposed, steps to accomplish improved and whatever it is it should be observed and enforced.
Right now we do have a problem with it and there is a human component to it.
The political component needs to be fixed IMO, before the human part can be dealt with effectively. Mexico is a case in point - the government isn't a bystander. Our agreements with them as neighbors has to include their enforcement of it from their side.
We deal with keeping out and sending back - it's easy to make the U.S. the bad guy but we're not in relation to wanting to control the borders of our country (not that you're stating that he U.S. is the bad guy, I know you're not) but the control from the other side appears to be as important an issue.
Given our own history with Native Americans and Mexico itself I think we can generate better solutions than the ones we have today. Engaging Mexico directly and pushing harder for action on their part would be one thing to do. A large part of the U.S. land was "Mexico" at one time. There are a lot of issues, challenges, opportunities and benefits from working together towards a shared good, for both sides, less so if the effort is one sided or leans too far towards us enforcing our laws to fill a gap that the Mexican government won't or can't fill.
Well I just got back from overseas travel, got myself scanned at Heathrow and was selected for a "random patdown" (I look like a terrorist??) but no probs. No probs anywhere at all in fact. I had a small nail clipper in my bag which I had asked about before I started my outward journey and was told it was okay. On the way back it was picked up in the bagscan in Hong Kong and they wanted to see it - but when produced, there was no objection.
At Heathrow the person after me had a 250ml bottle of contact lens saline (in a bag with other CL stuff) but the official allowed that through (limit is 100ml).
Each time my plane stopped (for refueling) all the passengers were made to get off and instead of going (being herded) into the transit lounge, we were all sent back through that country's security. Seemed weird, having been checked before getting on the plane in the first place, to be checked again for the continuation of the same flight in the same plane. Not sure what this would achieve. Relief of boredom for waiting passengers???
The bagscan equipment is pretty sophisticated, and shows different kinds of things in different colors (clothing one color, paper another etc). I chatted whilst I waited for my bags to be scanned. The officials were pleasant to talk to and explained what they were doing, not in detail, but friendly enough. You can tell I wasn't in the US. I would have been treated as a terrorist just for asking the question.
Actually I asked if they'd ever found anything suspicious in the bagscan and one official said yes but would not elaborate.
Australia is planning to introduce some equipment that gives a better body scan but they took great pains to emphasize that it wouldn't make people look "naked" as US scanning equipment does.
I think that the security should be given back to the airports, the whole 911 thing is a sham in the first place with giving up so many civil liberties for some temporary safety and that the reason we have been having these problems is because of the government's involvement in the Middle East. The reason that we have the Constitution is to protect us from the government and not the other way around, the government has taken several of our Bill of Rights from us with the (un)Patriot Act and the NDAA and telling us that is is for our safety against terrorism, True enough that we have had a threat of terrorism but does losing our civil liberties really worth it? I think not and I would like to have them back. Searches without warrants or that you even have to be at home to have the FBI or Homeland Security to go through your things, indefinite detention and/or execution without due process, looking in on our internet and cell phone activity and endless searches of our persons at the airports are all are part of our safety? What have we become? The Land of the Free...thing of the past!
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Kit Sober
Over the week of 9/11/01, I was working in Wendover NV and we flew in. For the six years I worked for that company, I often flew on a quarterly basis, and I traveled with three guys in their 30s to 40s and a woman in her late 30s. I was in my late 50s early 60s (different combinations depending upon the work we needed to do). I was always, always, always frisked, checked, pulled out, my bag pulled out and ransacked, etc. The guys I traveled with never were. Never. not one time. I don't look too weird. I generally was reading a Bible. Once I spoke to another elderly lady who said she also was always picked on for searches. I thought then that perhaps the security guard kids at that time "profiled" us out because we reminded them of their grandparents and they knew we would put up with their indignities.
Recently when traveling (I do it much less for current company but I now have metal knee). One way was a gruesome full body search, but the return home was a breeze. My metal knee was no problem because they had a full body scan and they could see it was only a fake knee.
Of course I wish they would profile terrorists and be more rational with prohibitions. The rampant stupidity of the "security guards" (like confiscating military medals from war heroes) does not make me feel safer because only a sensitivity to crime could prevent another 9/11/01 from happening, and the security folk I have seen have been so muddied in their thinking that they couldn't discern a military veteran who would prevent a disaster and a terrorist who would create one.
As Socks illustrated the searches are not based upon threat but sometimes varying random standards which easily could be circumvented if someone had crime on their mind.
I pray for the skies and highways and byways to be safe. That's the best I can think of to do.
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socks
The military pin thing is downright scarey Kit.
I really started giving this some thought this year when I was ahead of a guy on crutches - this is the honest to God truth. He was using metal crutches and had a pretty serious looking cast on his lower leg. I could hear him talking behind me and he'd looked online and called the airlines and wasn't able to get a human on the line. He'd gone to the airline desk and they'd told him to go through the normal line and they'd know how to handle it. Now he was there in line still asking and was going to hold up the entire line which he really didn't want to do.
First they asked him while he was in line - and this is the truth - , could he remove the metal cast....he said no. They asked him if he could walk without the crutches, he said no. They told him he had to be able to walk through the scanner or the alternative was to go through the full body scan and exam and they'd have to examine his crutches and cast. They didn't offer him a wheel chair, although I suppose if he'd asked for one they'd have gotten it. He told them he could walk, he was fine but couldn't they just look at his cast and crutches and see that when he went through the scanner what they were. They said no. He ended up heading off to the Room where he was going to have to go through an entire shake down and examination. I heard him saying "I wish I'd been told this at the airline desk" and they were telling him something about the airline desk not being the authority on it. Catch - 22 - a -go go.
Okay - I get that there has to be a process but it was more like a guessing game or 10 Questions or something. It was the fact they didn't appear to have a process for that in place that everyone involved knew and that they could immediately initiate that was weird - it didn't make me confident they knew what they were doing. They made it seem like he was doing something wrong and by not knowing what to do and asking questions he was suspect. The entire tone of both people that dealt with him was obnoxious for want of a better word.
Most of the time it's a breeze, I know what to do, do it and skeedle on to my gate. But if I stop and consider what's being done I feel less secure.
Why? Because the airport is filled with 1000's of people, well 100's anyway, that are all over the external areas of the airport from drop off to the entries to the lines in front. Nothing's secured about those areas.
Security appears to be reactionary - act on the last perceived or real threat. And not to be unkind but if I was to be completely honest many of the check point personnel don't act either mature or intelligent. In Houston couple years ago a group of them held up a security line arguing about who was getting the next break - this is the honest truth - they had to stop the line while a supervisor was called to sort it out for them. It was like the 5 Stooges Go To The Airport. The level of discussion wasn't professional to say the least, it was like listening to cranky kids. I understand that being a problem but if they don't have the break schedule worked out what else isn't?
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Twinky
Agreed we need to have some sort of security - but how is it delivered?
I've done a fair bit of international travel. Without doubt the security is the most unpleasant, obnoxious, unhelpful, degrading - in the US. Other security officials in other countries and in very busy airports can ask the same questions - politely. Professionally. Without getting people's backs up. Most people I know, if faced with international travel and can go via the US or some other way, will opt for another way and avoid the US. They shudder at the misery of American "security."
It is not just security - it's the immigration component as well. Under the big Welcome to America signs sit the most unwelcoming and surly officials ever. Are they selected for their grumpiness? After a long international flight which will take several hours and may cross several time zones, tired travellers are willing to cooperate but don't want the suspicious "evil eye" cast upon them by immigration officials. And these people are the "face of America" to tourists. Frankly, faced with such a welcome, I often feel like I'd like to perform a terrorist activity on them, or at least leap across their desk and kick their heads in (and I'm not a violent person, I go with the flow). Contempt breeds contempt.
If they did the things they have to do in a professional but pleasant manner, the job would still get done - but without the stale taste of resentment.
London Heathrow, for example, is extremely busy and the place bristles with security gadgets and watchful armed police officers - but the officials are polite and don't behave as if everyone were trying to do something wrong. As a result, the passengers are cooperative. And appreciative.
Some airport overseas - maybe Australia:
Airport official: "You have been randomly selected for ..."
Me: "Nah, mate, you've selected me because there isn't anybody else about and you're bored."
AO: shrugs and smiles
Me: "Let's get on with it then. What do you want me to do?"
(activity)
Me: "How does this thing work, then?"
AO: (explains)
And we have a long and pleasant discussion about security, testing devices etc.
I felt uplifted.
Probably, so did he.
Another time, my bags were searched - not in my presence - for an onward flight out of the US - I don't have a problem about that, but I did want to make sure that the breakables in it were still packed carefully. Would they let me check - they could see I had nothing in my hands? No. Would they open the bag again in front of me, and show me? No. Would they do anything to help me? No, and if I touched the contents they would search the bags again. In fact, I think they threatened to arrest me!
Weeping with tiredness, I went elsewhere, and at some other place where my bags were again allegedly checked, I found a more helpful official. This one was not American - Ozzie, Brit, something else. He opened my bag and showed me that my breakables were still packed nested in the soft things so that they wouldn't be damaged. Took less than a minute.
I will never go to LAX again.
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Twinky
Why is this topic in ATW anyway?
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Watered Garden
We flew to southern Florida and back last Memorial Day weekend. Out of Columbus, my husband flunked the full body scan and got the full body patdown, being touched where no man has ever touched him before. Turned out he had a dime and a nickel in one pants pocket no one had discovered. Apparently coins don't show up on the scanner. I on the other hand mentioned and displayed my insulin pump and breezed right through. They took a disk of cloth or paper, had me rub my hands on the pump, then rubbed the disk over my hands and took it to a machine, which told them it did not contain explosives.
On the return trip, it was I who set off major alarms, repeatedly. Suddenly remembered the pump, so they went through the same routine and I passed. Looking down as I gathered my belongings I saw what I had forgotten to remove and not one of the moderately alarmed officials had noticed. I was wearing a nice wristwatch, and that, not my pump, was what was setting off the alarm.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
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socks
My mistake, Twinky. I meant if for Open. Here I'm ripping Airport Security and can't click to save me life. Can it be moved? It's a short topic although I've been in vent mode.
I've been figuring out who to send my thoughts to. I don't want to get into the airline/airport system as I don't know exactly what's at the other end. Maybe write a legislator, dunno. FAA? I hesitate to get on anyone's list.
First issue to me is the overall consistency of the systems and standards. I know it's known that's a problem so it's not new by any means. But the way it's set up now it doesn't seem to guarantee that all airports and airlines will respond the same way to the same kinds of issues.
Second is the airport itself - I think the security measures should apply to anyone entering the airport property, the buildings, check in, ticket counters. Basically if you walk in the doors for anything you're subject to a minimal amount of security review. That would support the entire effort. Why wait till you're going to your Gate? If you can get to the line to go through the flight scanners with something dangerous you're already a risk.
Third would be to establish expectations so everyone knows up front what's up - I think the overall passenger attitude is to get through the whole thing as fast as possible and that it shouldn't take a long time. I would prefer that it take more time to be honest - an additional 10 minutes per person would be about right - screen every single person going through every single time - who are you, where are you going, what are you doing and why. When bags and coats and stuff are scanned allow for time at that point for finding out exactly what is going through. That would be a more sensible approach to security IMO if we're going to do it.
I went through with a carry on electric guitar several years ago - had it in a travel bag, it had onboard electronics that require a 9 volt battery and a vibrato mechanism that has a rod that comes in and out. I took the 9 volt out, and the rod and had them separate. I expected it to be scanned separately and it was. But the person doing it didn't know exactly what they were looking for and wanted to know what the battery was for. I explained. They had to get another person to look at it who knew what it all was but he didn't actually look inside the guitar cavities to see what was in them. I expected them to want to look it over and I was prepared for that but they didn't. The guy just said oh yeah, I get it and passed me through.
This was on a flight to Los Angeles - going and coming, same thing. I know a few guitarists must come and go out of SFO and LAX with guitars so it surprised me that they didn't have a process for them. I don't think it can be assumed that because a guitar looks like a guitar that that's all it is so I'd feel better going through more review than less.
Between what's done and what I'm asked and what isn't done and not asked is a big gap IMO.
Anyhoo...
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waysider
Here's my take on it:
1. Have them sign "the green card".
2. Undershepherd them through "the class".
3. Work with them to get them through all the peripheral classes/requirements needed for The Advanced Class.
4. Get them through The Advanced Class.
VOILA!
Then..... they can use "all 9 all the time" and do this whole trip by revelation.
(My obligatory effort to segue this into ATW.)
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socks
Thanks Ways. :)
The more I read about this topic the more I go hmmm. These posts here - I'm digesting.
I've read that the most effective anti-terrorist risk management and prevention goes on outside the travel/airport context - identify the people before they try to board a plane. Makes sense.
We do need to be diligent at the airports though, much more than we are now IMO. Given the grief we all seem to go through I wouldn't complain if it seemed better informed by intelligence and technology. The stuff we do now has a lot of stupid in it from what I see.
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Twinky
I will be finding all about this in Jan when I go for an overseas trip.
Can't wait for the security stuff......... :(
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skyrider
Or.....it's being done deliberately.
Adding thousands of TSA agents, levels of bureaucracy boosts the union rolls and federal govt footprint.....and democratic votes. With higher costs and frustrated travelers, will airlines be crippled and slide into bankrupcy? Will the airline industry then NEED to be federalized? More unions....more democratic voting blocks?
One frustrated traveler wrote a blog about tsa/airline travel and directed his ire towards a submissive conditioning. He cited the conformity and numbheadedness of patting down 88-year old ladies, kids, and all without thought to patterns and profiling. Why are travelers being "victimized" by a numbnuts federal government while the Detroit "crotch-bomber" was read his miranda rights?
And yet.....our southern border agents are being reassigned leaving a porous 2,400 mile border
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socks
George Carlin wondered about some of this too....some profanity provided a jolt of clarify. He may have changed his tune later, don't know, but he makes a point or two.
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uQdC-e82gmk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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johniam
Haven't flown myself since 1996, pre 9/11, but this past August my wife flew to Hartford, CT (Bradley Airport) and back. It was her first ever plane flight. She says they treated her well. Before the flight back, I went through the screening so I could be with her at the gate. I always carry a small pocket knife with me for various purposes. I forgot to leave it in the van. Bradley has it now. But it wasn't a big deal. Overall, based on what I'd heard, I was pleasantly surprised at how uninvasive it was. I suppose Bradley is a relatively small airport. I don't know when and where I'll fly again, but I won't be as concerned.
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krys
IMHO standardizing operations at airport screenings would be valueless. If everybody knows exactly what they have to watch out for...there's a big hole where unscrupulous people slide through. Surprise works to our advantage if the bad guys are kept off balance. Unfortunately, it affects us too.
One thing I've learned is that if one of the inspectors does something inappropriate, make a lot of noise to attract attention. Somebody with supervisor authority will be their sooner than you can imagine. I travel as a handicapped traveler, although my handicap is very mild when compared to others. I use a wheelchair because I can't stand for long...and I use a devise to assist my normal bodily functions.
Last time I flew, the investigator insisted I get out of the wheelchair. I said "no problem as long as you have a chair right next to me because I cannot stand more than a few seconds." They said...it won't take more than a few seconds, lifted me out of the chair and left me while they took the wheelchair for testing. When they came back I was literally on the floor because I could not stand that long.. They made me look and feel like a sub human species. I said, "Please tell me why that was necessary, this is not my wheelchair, I picked one up from your skycap at the entrance"....I was nice too. I got all kinds of mouth back....so that was that. I was lower than a worm and my 69 years of wisdom was worthless. So we get to the actual
walk through part and we already know that I can't get out of the wheelchair for long....and now they don't ask, but they take my device.....no ask...no preparation....they just yank it off me....take it for testing....and somebody pushes me through the checkpoint leaving me there to connect up with my device. It was quite a long time....and I was going into distress before I was going to get it back...so I just screamed at the top of my voice "THAT SCREENER TOOK MY LIFE SUPPORTING DEVICE AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE SHE IS OR WHERE IT IS. I JUST KEPT SHOUTING. It took maybe 3 sentences from me and I had a supervisor at my side asking me to be quiet. I said I'll be quiet when I get my device back. Everyone could see my distress but still I waited and waited....finally he came back with it. I asked him where it was and where she was and he said she took the device and brought it to be checked and then went on break. He told me he was going to find her on her break and fire her. I felt bad that somebody lost a job....however I'm glad that there were lots of other screeners around who saw and hopefully learned. BTW..they never checked my shoes.
Everybody has nightmare stories about this activity and mine is no worse than yours. The problem is us. We expect a certain degree of organization, humanity and efficiency. We treat people with respect but I've learned not to expect it back.
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socks
If you travel in and out of any large airports with any regularity johniam, you will be. There's an assumption at major airports that you will know enough to not take a knife to the Gates - and think about it - you weren't a passenger with a ticket or boarding pass - what's your intent? It's simple to you but if you step back and consider what "they" are looking for - and what is that exactly he asked? - it's not simple at all.
Yeah, I agree krys - standardized approaches have up and down sides. My thought at this time is that IF this approach to airport security is continued there needs to be a better way to accomplish it. Otherwise we end up with this mish mash we have now. To handle all eventualities in a non-standardized environment would require better technology and resources than we are putting into it now. But yeah I think you have a very good point - if it isn't one thing today it'll be another tomorrow. We don't get a lot of traction chasing down the last problem we found, it's the next one we need to know about.
Just my thoughts, I appreciate the input here. I'm thinking more about this now that I'm flying more the past couple years. I know the drills and go through without any real problems. But my little ones from time to time are really the tiny tips of a big iceberg I think.
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HAPe4me
Airport security can be, well, "disturbing" anywhere I guess. In 2006 we took a wonderfully leisure 3 1/2 week vacation to Italy and Germany. At Denver and New York I was quite pleasantly surprised by the simple movement through security at the time. At the end of our vacation we flew out of Dresden in Germany. I gave my son, who was staying, all but about 10 of my remaining euro's, walked into the airport, checked our two large bags, turned in the keys to the rental car and headed for security with our carry-on containing my ditty bag, my wife's toiletries and a few breakable souvenirs and my cameras.
I placed it on the conveyer, and we were all smiles thinking we had plenty of time to unwind and reminisce about our wonderful vacation. The first indication of concern came when the policeman kept backing up the conveyer, running it through, turning the bag, running it through again, looking sternly at me the whole time. He motioned to two other policemen (both heavily armed) to come look. I could not imagine what they were looking at. Finally they motioned to me to come to the bag scanner. "Was ist das?" they asked me, pointing at the image. I looked myself and about flipped out, They had noticed a live .45 bullet I had in the ditty bag,
Four years earlier while hiking in the mountains here in Colorado I had found the bullet. I picked it up, put it in my pocket and when I returned to camp, tossed it in my bag. I totally had forgotten it in all that time. I had several trips to Illinois by plane during that time, dealing with my mother's estate. Nobody had said a thing in any airport, not in Denver, Chicago, Minn/St.Paul then, or even New York, Frankfort or Rome on this trip. Nobody said a word on the train from Venice to Frankfurt either. Now in Dresden, I was faced with three visibly alarmed, heavily armed policemen who spoke about 1/4 the amount of English that I spoke of German. I got from them that this was considered a very serious problem in Germany, and they directed me to an office. Apparently, not only did they not like me having a loaded bullet in a carry-on bag, I came to learn that I needed a permit to have such an item anyway,
They were kind enough to assure me they wanted to get this handled in time for my wife and I to make our flight. They called some official, a Richter (judge), on the phone, who gave them some instructions. but as I sat there watching them nervously scrolling through Word documents on their computer, I wanted to know what was the problem now? "Was ist los?" He turned the computer screen towards me and pointed to the document, written in German. "Verstehst du?" (meaning "Do you understand?") "Nein", I said. I certainly did not understand enough German to sign a legal document in a foreign airport regarding an offense I did not understand.
The policeman then pointed to the title and asked, again in German, if I could understand that. "Jah, ich verstehe". Now he went back to the files in Windows Explorer, and pointed as he scrolled. I finally understood. They were not sure which file was the English version of the German document they needed me to sign for the judge. He got up and motioned for me to sit at the computer. I scrolled through the titles and finally found one that matched at least my translation of the paragraph he had showed me in German. "Deiser", I said. He smiled relieved, and hit the print button. I looked over the form and learned that I was pleading guilty to essentially a misdemeanor for possession of ammunition in a secure location (the airport). Then I saw this would be a 50 euro fine, and I had given most the last of my money to my boy.
We solved this by having the machinegun armed policeman escort me to an ATM while my wife had to stay in the office to make sure I would not run away I guess. LOL. She was rather steamed at me by now. On our return, I signed the document and put the money and the document in an envelope which was mailed to the judge. At least we got our own escort all the way to the departure gate from there!
Oh, they did also confiscate the bullet. I was ready to go home. Next stop Frankfurt, where I think my reputation preceded me, as I was grilled as they looked at my passport, thoroughly patted down at the security gate, and gruffly greeted by the attendant at the departure gate. Finally we were non-stop back to the States!
Seriously though, I felt very embarrassed, and I think the poor policemen pretty much were in similar straights. The were really trying to be kind and understanding, but their lack of ability to communicate with me caused a good bit of tension. We all made it through, and I have laughed many times about it since. I hope they too have shared the story over a friendly beer with friends once or twice. I wonder if I really picked the right document out of the lineup? LOL
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Kit Sober
Here is notice of pending legislation received from Capitol Hill Prayer Partners in their "Daily Brief":
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skyrider
Well, well........here it comes.
TSA teams are increasingly conducting searches and screenings at train stations, subways,
ferry terminals and other mass transit locations.....and America is being transformed
right before our very eyes.
Click Here
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Eagle
Well, that video was...bizarre.
Speaking of immigration, I do believe in tight airport security though the TSA has gone overboard. Why not take our most recent legal or even undocumented immigrants, do a security check at home and from their country of origin, and allow all to stay and also allow their most immediate relatives as well, before cutting off the borders? It looks as if the borders will some day be closed and I prefer that the recent immigrants have access to their families before this happens. Just an opinion. I have spoken to Hispanic friends of mine, specifically one who was the best man at my wedding, and we agree on sensible and compassionate policy before someone puts the fences up, should that ever happen.
I'm not sure if I'll get a response because since writing my book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine, I have been passed over, even here. But God Bless anyway. I hope all is well.
Eagle (Steve)
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socks
Hi Eagle - really? Passed over here? For writing a book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine?
Here?
My impression of GreaseSpot Cafeterium is that if Wierwille buttered his toast on the bottom instead of the top it would be sliced, diced, researched, re researched, debated and ultimately be proven 1. wrong 2. theologically toxic and 3. insane.
And that would be for just the first 10 years after which it would be revisited for the newbies, again and again in case anyone missed it. No flaw goes unexplored here and no detail is too small to warrant attention. Big stuff? Oh yeah. So it may have just been a hiccup in the flow. Dunno.
All is well though and all who come to this thread seeking succor and solace will be accepted and given the maximum amount of license and minimum amount of abuse allowed by law. So consider yourself in, ticket punched! Welcome!
I'm also concerned about the shutting down of our borders and the effect that would have. I'm sure few in politics will truly say "shut" down but the result of clogging them with more process- dunno. My position is that the TSA and federal government still doesn't have a handle with what it's trying to do currently and I think it's due to the fact that we haven't clarified what it is something like airport security is supposed to actually accomplish other than make sure that someone doesn't carry a stick of dynamite on the plane and ask someone for a match. It's clumsy at best which wouldn't matter if it didn't slow everything down, make flying confusing and costly for everyone in time and money.
I am Hispanic, father's side all from Spain and Mexico. Still can't speak Spanish to save my life, have no accent other than West Coast Whatever, and get mixed up visually with a bag of Latin/Italian/Sun Tanned. In the winter I go pale but not Scandinavian white by any means. I have a beard, dress quite snappily and other than thin hair look about like the average Old Guy looking for his keys.
Depending on the situation I can be singled out for lots of things. I'm not that as far as I know but I'm sure that in some Neo Nazi White Supremacist Citizen Pride Klueless Kluk Klan clean sweep of our coasts I might end up in Tijuana looking for cab fair.
The lack of intelligence is a big part of the problem that I see in our security intelligence programs.
I don't trust cops to hit what they're shooting at or know when to not shoot to be honest, I certainly have reservations about the TSA and other agencies related to "national security".
Your idea sounds interesting, wonder how it could be administered?
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Eagle
Thanks, Socks. It means a lot to hear from someone. How could the program I discussed with my best man at my wedding be administered? Probably by having Congress and the President focus on it once and for all and not move to any other issue until the border issue is resolved. Doubt that would happen. But I don't want our legal immigrants hurt if they have illegal immigrants in the country and we deport them. We must make some kind of effort to say to other countries: "We are absolutely shutting our borders down. What is the most humane way of doing this?" Frankly, the input most needed and required would be from the Hispanic community and Hispanic community leaders, who would be most concerned about their immediate families. (We can't do extended families, such as cousins to cousins, etc., because then there would be no end.)
I'm not sure how many think this is a plausible solution, but I see the borders closing in the next ten years, or at least strictly under control.
Hope this helps.
Eagle
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socks
Well, flew again this last week. Went fairly smooth going out - security check in etc. went quickly and without incident. Packed normally, no differences, all carry on - one bag for the bin and a backpack and a jacket.
There's a 3.4 ounce limit on aerosol and bottles with liquid - I have a 5.3 ounce aerosol spray can of a generic brand Tinactin I always take to spray in my shoes for that fresh factor. I always take it and it always goes through. Even one incident where a too large bottle of shampoo was pulled, it stayed, for whatever reasons that the Higher Intelligence Powers deemed appropriate....evrything went through on the outbound security check A OK. I didn' even think about it at this point, it was all a pretty light pack anyway.
Coming back, packed up almost identically, it got flagged and I was pulled over. The very nice Security person identified it immediately, noted the size differential and suggested I could either put the bag through baggage check on - or dump it there. I chose to dump it, it was only half full and although I had the time to go back didn't want to hassle with it. (My flight had been delayed an 1 1/2 hrs already so I wanted to get in and get on something before the night was over).
So no big deal and it was handled the way I'd expect - I wasn't treated like a criminal for just being there or peppered with salty questions about why I would bring such a thing on a trip - took about 5 minutes and we were done, the bag scanned fine and I was on my way with a wave and a smile.
So - that security check through sucks if I'm looking for a pattern, for consistency. A can size that's gone through at least 5 -6 times in the last year, didn't that time.
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socks
Eagle, I would agree. Our borders are borders. Crossing in and out for a day or a lifetime, there's process. That process can change over time, restrictions imposed, steps to accomplish improved and whatever it is it should be observed and enforced.
Right now we do have a problem with it and there is a human component to it.
The political component needs to be fixed IMO, before the human part can be dealt with effectively. Mexico is a case in point - the government isn't a bystander. Our agreements with them as neighbors has to include their enforcement of it from their side.
We deal with keeping out and sending back - it's easy to make the U.S. the bad guy but we're not in relation to wanting to control the borders of our country (not that you're stating that he U.S. is the bad guy, I know you're not) but the control from the other side appears to be as important an issue.
Given our own history with Native Americans and Mexico itself I think we can generate better solutions than the ones we have today. Engaging Mexico directly and pushing harder for action on their part would be one thing to do. A large part of the U.S. land was "Mexico" at one time. There are a lot of issues, challenges, opportunities and benefits from working together towards a shared good, for both sides, less so if the effort is one sided or leans too far towards us enforcing our laws to fill a gap that the Mexican government won't or can't fill.
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Twinky
Well I just got back from overseas travel, got myself scanned at Heathrow and was selected for a "random patdown" (I look like a terrorist??) but no probs. No probs anywhere at all in fact. I had a small nail clipper in my bag which I had asked about before I started my outward journey and was told it was okay. On the way back it was picked up in the bagscan in Hong Kong and they wanted to see it - but when produced, there was no objection.
At Heathrow the person after me had a 250ml bottle of contact lens saline (in a bag with other CL stuff) but the official allowed that through (limit is 100ml).
Each time my plane stopped (for refueling) all the passengers were made to get off and instead of going (being herded) into the transit lounge, we were all sent back through that country's security. Seemed weird, having been checked before getting on the plane in the first place, to be checked again for the continuation of the same flight in the same plane. Not sure what this would achieve. Relief of boredom for waiting passengers???
The bagscan equipment is pretty sophisticated, and shows different kinds of things in different colors (clothing one color, paper another etc). I chatted whilst I waited for my bags to be scanned. The officials were pleasant to talk to and explained what they were doing, not in detail, but friendly enough. You can tell I wasn't in the US. I would have been treated as a terrorist just for asking the question.
Actually I asked if they'd ever found anything suspicious in the bagscan and one official said yes but would not elaborate.
Australia is planning to introduce some equipment that gives a better body scan but they took great pains to emphasize that it wouldn't make people look "naked" as US scanning equipment does.
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damurf
I think that the security should be given back to the airports, the whole 911 thing is a sham in the first place with giving up so many civil liberties for some temporary safety and that the reason we have been having these problems is because of the government's involvement in the Middle East. The reason that we have the Constitution is to protect us from the government and not the other way around, the government has taken several of our Bill of Rights from us with the (un)Patriot Act and the NDAA and telling us that is is for our safety against terrorism, True enough that we have had a threat of terrorism but does losing our civil liberties really worth it? I think not and I would like to have them back. Searches without warrants or that you even have to be at home to have the FBI or Homeland Security to go through your things, indefinite detention and/or execution without due process, looking in on our internet and cell phone activity and endless searches of our persons at the airports are all are part of our safety? What have we become? The Land of the Free...thing of the past!
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