2) Women. I knew of one woman who asked for permission from her husband to wait and make his lunch in the morning. She was tired and wanted to go to bed after a very long waymeetingtwg at their house. In front of everyone he told her she needed to renew her mind and make it that night before going to bed. She did and thought she was being a good example to the rest of the women.
Some men love to lord over their wives, and unfortunately some women want to be lorded over. They don't want to be responsible for their choices. They want to put it on someone else. They are afraid to live life. I have to admit sometimes I've been tempted to make decisions my husbands responsibility because I don't want to deal with it. But he always encourages me to think when I get like this and I appreciate it.
So twi provides the perfect environment for the bullies and the fearful. Any strong woman that can be a positive example to a fearful woman is perceived as a threat and are demeaned and removed as quickly as possible. I remember we were supposed to hate Hilary Clinton. Why? We didn't even know anything about at the time her but she was immediately called evil.
Men bullies are fearful of women who think.
3) Jealous of their numbers.
4) Jealous of anyone with a true education. Then they lose control, so they try to black ball experts so they can look like the smart ones. People with education scare them because they may give the people they are lording over honest answers.
Just like when they tried to get believers to stay away from the internet. They were afraid people would get information and start thinking for themselves. They said the internet made people get posessed.
They target anyone they are jealous of or who is a threat to the control they have over other people.
It may be there was no particular reason - other than to deflect attention from what else VPW was "teaching."
VPW magnified one aspect of evil to obscure the evil that he was perpetrating elsewhere.
It's okay to hate homosexuals...just don't look at adulterers.
It's okay to hate debt - and those in debt...as long as you give us all your money. You gotta do that.
It's okay to hate those who have different religious practises ... as long as you don't realize how deeply you have become involved in a weird organization.
It's okay to hate the proud and arrogant ... just as long as you do what we say.
It's okay to hate women ... all this mess is all that woman Eve's fault, stupid creature, never obeyed her husband.
(of which last point I could say a few things...but won't)
Raised RC, educated for 10 years in the Parochial school system. I know West Coast RCism.
I understood why VPW didn't "like" the RC religion. I didn't either. Still don't. I don't hate them though.
I don't think he did either, he didn't really have a background in Catholicism that I saw. Maybe he really
just took exception to all that coin going there way that could have been going to The Way.
I do think they should be shut down as a tax exempt organization while they're under investigation for
the many claims of abuse and deceit that have been brought forward especially since there seems to be such an organized network of deceit, hindrance and obfuscation.
So should the Way Nash, except that there don't seem to be any current suits or legal actions pending against them.
That has nothing to do with VPW though. Or maybe it does - either way, many people feel that way.
I can't help it that they suck so badly but I don't like it.
Anyone else want to chime in on WHY each of these is such a SPECIFIC target,
and why vpw was down on them, or why vpw apologists still hate them?
Perhaps.....a cult leader's mission is closely aligned with the goals of a community organizer. To get others involved, one has to stir and agitate. As the group becomes more "like-minded".....unity and commitment intensify.
Yep....Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" comes to mind.
For Alinsky, organizing is the process of highlighting whatever he believed to be wrong and convincing people they can actually do something about it. The two are linked. If people feel they don’t have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.
According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside —must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a situation.
Wierwille was your classic demagogue. Small peanuts, though, really, compared to some of the more widely known demagogues that history has produced, such as Adolph Hitler and Joe McCarthy.
"But though there is no difference in this respect between the best demagogue and the worst, both of them having to present their cases equally in terms of melodrama, there is all the difference in the world between the statesman who is humbugging the people into allowing him to do the will of God, in whatever disguise it may come to him, and one who is humbugging them into furthering his personal ambition and the commercial interests of the plutocrats who own the newspapers and support him on reciprocal terms."....George Bernard Shaw
VP also targeted evangelical Christians and seminary training, largely I think because they were a threat to him. People with theological training are esp a threat because they have the research/ language tools to identify the damage he was doing the Bible passages and be able to answer them. He used the pejorative label "Tradition" to attack anyone who differed with him.
When in comes right down to it, VPW and TWI attacked everyone but themselves, because trying to tear others down was the method they used to try to build themselves up. The sad result was that when people left TWI (the 98%), they felt they had no where else to go for fellowship, because VP had done such a good job of destroying them in his followers' eyes.
Perhaps.....a cult leader's mission is closely aligned with the goals of a community organizer. To get others involved, one has to stir and agitate. As the group becomes more "like-minded".....unity and commitment intensify.
Yep....Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" comes to mind.
For Alinsky, organizing is the process of highlighting whatever he believed to be wrong and convincing people they can actually do something about it. The two are linked. If people feel they don't have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.
According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside —must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a situation.
Not all community organizers take things to that extreme. And, btw, anyone who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun was also demonized by Wierwille... and that much continues with many former followers.
Not all community organizers take things to that extreme. And, btw, anyone who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun was also demonized by Wierwille... and that much continues with many former followers.
Of course, not all community organizers take things to that extreme.....nor do all "ministers" have security guys patrolling the surrounding roads or bodyguards or motorcoaches or target traditional churches.
And, despite wierwille's rhetoric, spiritual or otherwise.....he used all the levers of big beauracracy, central control, dependency followers, squelching individuality, corporate trained personnel (corps), sunday teaching tapes, all major events with wierwille front and center, diminished region/state authority and petty cash accounts, rogue twig leaders were pruned from "way tree," all monies funneled to hq, bless patrol at roa (tsa agents?), favors and perks to inner circle, etc. etc. Wierwille used his levers of power to rule with a tyrannical hand......and his underlings splashed his name and picture on the "wierwille magazine" for decades.
In targeting the RCC and other churches, wierwille manipulated his followers in a covert agenda. He took his message to the youth.....the downtrodden, the outcasts, the hippies, the misfits. Sound familiar? No, not all fit into those categories, but large swaths did and the swell of momentum continued. He demagogued his opponents....stirring and agitating twi followers to do the same....and yet, twi became just another religion unto itself.
I've said in the past that the best solution for radical fundamentalism and hate-speech in Islamist countries
is EDUCATION and JOBS.
This is an interesting parallel. An education and a career is a solution against radical fundamentalism. I would definitely consider TWI as radical fundamentalism, as their viewpoints are very exclusive of other Christian organizations and denominations.
TWI itself keeps people in lower education tiers and keeps people from dedicating themselves to a profession through high levels of time commitments (average TWI activities are 5-7x per week) and alternative goals setting (i.e. Way Disciple, Way Corps in place of college and profession).
TWI controls the amount of education people are likely to obtain through their debt policy (i.e. it is against "the Word" to be in debt for any reason including student loans). In this day and age an education beyond high school is a formidable expense. Most of the modern population offset this expense through federal student loan programs, which are approved quite liberally. Once a young person has an education, the higher salary they are able to obtain allows them to pay off the student loans throughout their working career at very negotiable rates. There are also programs such as working in school districts that have high levels of poverty that allow for the forgiveness of all student loans. But none of these are available to TWI youngsters. There are some exeptions to this - for example, many TWI Staff members are paid close to minimum wage. This allows their children to attend school - tuition and books - utilizing Pell Grants, which are free money for education for those living on the poverty line. So in other words, taxpayers with productive jobs who pay income tax and businesses within our country who pay high taxes pay for staff kids college. Not to derail too far but it's a travesty of justice that a small business owner taxed at 50% of their corporate income can't afford to pay for their own kids college but the 50% tax pays for TWI staff kids education.
But back on point, for TWI members attending local fellowships, the high levels of control over finances (i.e. debt policy) prevent young people from attending college on the average.
Professions are another category of control. To advance in a profession usually requires some dedication outside of normal business hours. This doesn't have to be extensive - maybe 10 hours a week outside. TWI however, with high levels of activity (for example, fellowships 3x/week, witnessing 1-2x per week, Adv. Class grads meetings, Branch, Limb meetings, leadership training meetings) takes up all of that time. Also, classes, which are run multiple times per year. The FNC is slated to run 2-3x per year (takes 1 month approx), INT 1x, other classes 1x. When classes are run, this takes up practically all time outside of work, all centered around the new students, but multiple hearings of the same material helps indoctrinate class crews also. So there is very little time to do anything towards a profession and the development of one. Things that are ruled out: Professional conferences (weekends usually conflict with some major TWI meeting), travel (some professions such as military are shielded from this in TWI), local networking meetings (or if you go, it's from a "witnessing" perspective), studying for advanced certifications, moving for a better professional position (have to consider the "household" primarily).
So the members of TWI due to the amount of control of TWI have lower levels of education and profession. Now this is a generality, there are always those individuals that resist the system and maintain a certain amount of control over their own lives. Usually these unique individuals don't last long in TWI - they are chased out for various reasons. TWI is not an organization that tolerates free thought.
But if you want to see the fruit of a cult - the negative impact of a cult - just look at these things. Control over education. Control over profession. Control over time and money. Base essentials that help an individual with individual freedoms and the development of free thought. Don't give these things up and don't let our young people do it either.
Anyone else want to chime in on WHY each of these is such a SPECIFIC target,
and why vpw was down on them, or why vpw apologists still hate them?
1) RC Church - Has the most amount of money, followers, and if you attack them it's an easy step to group all major Christian denominations in. Calling all their trinkets, statues, necklaces, artifacts "idols" is an easy sell.
2) Women - this is relatively self-explanatory. VP shows his true misogynistic colors all over, but one highlight is in TW living in love. He would never receive holy spirit i.e. SIT "with any woman around". Nobody could exploit the young girls like VP did without having a low value opinion of women in general. That justified using them for VP. Just as a side note many times this type of pathology stems back to child abuse. I would not be surprised to see some form of abuse in VP's childhood whether by a parent, relative, or sibling.
3) Jews - this one to me is harder to pinpoint but I will attribute it to VP's known affinity for conspiracy theory.
Great thread for discussion. Generally speaking, isn't this how it works: take position A, whatever the topic or belief may be, and then bend all opposing positions to your advantage. Play all games, run all debates, lead all discussions according to the rules you choose.
Remember how VPW would rail from his lecturrn sometimes on how he would be willing to debate any leadership from RC or Baptist or any other church, but that such leaders should "leave my keedz alone"? Did he ever actually participate in such a debate though? Of course not; he needed them to remain as a distant, threatening, bendable target.
Okay, I have to admit that it takes some talent to set up the entire body of Christ as enemy to people who claim to be Christian. It takes talent or some kind of strange Voodoo magic to convince a large group of people they are the only ones on the entire planet who have the complete package. It wasn't just the RC's it was everyone else whom we considered inferior or demon possessed. That kind of arrogance breeds serious contempt.
He had to set it up that way.....because with time and exposure to the church at large that contempt begins to reflect poorly just where it should....on the ones who are full of contempt.
In fairness though....many Evangelicals cast a suspicious eye toward the Catholic Church. It is not just TWI.
As for the issue of women, VP, and the apologists....I think that kind of misogyny stems from deep seated insecurity and fear. It doesn't stem from Jesus or His relationships with women. Jesus was revolutionary in His attitude toward women. Consider that the most amazing theological discourse in the Gospels was given to a woman.....an outcast and an adulterer. He saw past it all right to her heart and revealed himself to her. Heart tugging and beautiful. That is a far cry from a parked motorcoach.
he would have lost the debate, exposing his ignorance of Greek, Hebrew/Aramaic, Church History, etc. becoming a laughing stock and butt of jokes
Perhaps so. Or, who knows, it may have been an interesting debate. My point is that there was no way he would ever have agreed to do it. The risks were simply too great to take. He couldn't risk losing stature in his keedz's eyes. Not with all that money rolling in. Not to mention the free tang.
Perhaps so. Or, who knows, it may have been an interesting debate. My point is that there was no way he would ever have agreed to do it. The risks were simply too great to take. He couldn't risk losing stature in his keedz's eyes. Not with all that money rolling in. Not to mention the free tang.
Maybe, but couldn't he have just "reached up in Daddy's cookie jar"?
I remember at some point, possibly during in residence corps training, hearing that Communism "had a life of its own" and was therefore driven by debbil spurts. That's why it had spread so fast, and was going to take over the whole world by the time of the gathering together. It was less than a year or so after I left TWI that Pope John Paul II brought down the Soviet Empire [actual history abbreviated for effect, but the result was the same].
I remember at some point, possibly during in residence corps training, hearing that Communism "had a life of its own" and was therefore driven by debbil spurts. That's why it had spread so fast, and was going to take over the whole world by the time of the gathering together. It was less than a year or so after I left TWI that Pope John Paul II brought down the Soviet Empire [actual history abbreviated for effect, but the result was the same].
Love,
Steve
That shouldn't surprise me.
twi information came from undereducated people with bad sources of information
who lacked the skills to tell the difference.
When I was in high school, I started learning about "detente"- and how the US and
"the Evil Empire" the USSR sometimes work together. (Actually, I brought UP the subject
and was taught that word as a result.)
lcm, he was at the podium saying how the US should let the USSR starve and not sell
them food. On the one hand, it would have been bad for our food sales. On the other,
the Bible and lcm made a sharp departure. lcm said to let the USSR starve because
he said they were our "enemy".
Romans 12:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
What happened?
The US didn't let the people of the USSR starve.
The people eventually lightened up, and a few years after lcm's pronouncement,
the Berlin Wall fell and the USSR broke up into its component countries.
Our relations with each of them are pretty good, which is a good thing.
That made sense according to the Bible and according to diplomacy and politics.
It contradicted lcm who had no education in diplomacy and politics,
and it seems his education in the Bible was deficient.
Okay, I have to admit that it takes some talent to set up the entire body of Christ as enemy to people who claim to be Christian. It takes talent or some kind of strange Voodoo magic to convince a large group of people they are the only ones on the entire planet who have the complete package. It wasn't just the RC's it was everyone else whom we considered inferior or demon possessed. That kind of arrogance breeds serious contempt.
If it wasn't so tragic it would actually be funny. It was all so stupid when you look at it on paper.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
it is because they are paranoid and immature
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100% Free
Good topic Word Wolf.
1) Probably jealous of their numbers.
2) Women. I knew of one woman who asked for permission from her husband to wait and make his lunch in the morning. She was tired and wanted to go to bed after a very long waymeetingtwg at their house. In front of everyone he told her she needed to renew her mind and make it that night before going to bed. She did and thought she was being a good example to the rest of the women.
Some men love to lord over their wives, and unfortunately some women want to be lorded over. They don't want to be responsible for their choices. They want to put it on someone else. They are afraid to live life. I have to admit sometimes I've been tempted to make decisions my husbands responsibility because I don't want to deal with it. But he always encourages me to think when I get like this and I appreciate it.
So twi provides the perfect environment for the bullies and the fearful. Any strong woman that can be a positive example to a fearful woman is perceived as a threat and are demeaned and removed as quickly as possible. I remember we were supposed to hate Hilary Clinton. Why? We didn't even know anything about at the time her but she was immediately called evil.
Men bullies are fearful of women who think.
3) Jealous of their numbers.
4) Jealous of anyone with a true education. Then they lose control, so they try to black ball experts so they can look like the smart ones. People with education scare them because they may give the people they are lording over honest answers.
Just like when they tried to get believers to stay away from the internet. They were afraid people would get information and start thinking for themselves. They said the internet made people get posessed.
They target anyone they are jealous of or who is a threat to the control they have over other people.
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Twinky
You forgot the homo/lesbian rants, thoug LCM took those to a new level.
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Twinky
You asked WHY.
It may be there was no particular reason - other than to deflect attention from what else VPW was "teaching."
VPW magnified one aspect of evil to obscure the evil that he was perpetrating elsewhere.
It's okay to hate homosexuals...just don't look at adulterers.
It's okay to hate debt - and those in debt...as long as you give us all your money. You gotta do that.
It's okay to hate those who have different religious practises ... as long as you don't realize how deeply you have become involved in a weird organization.
It's okay to hate the proud and arrogant ... just as long as you do what we say.
It's okay to hate women ... all this mess is all that woman Eve's fault, stupid creature, never obeyed her husband.
(of which last point I could say a few things...but won't)
It's all part of the smoke and mirrors.
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socks
1) The Roman Catholic Church.
Raised RC, educated for 10 years in the Parochial school system. I know West Coast RCism.
I understood why VPW didn't "like" the RC religion. I didn't either. Still don't. I don't hate them though.
I don't think he did either, he didn't really have a background in Catholicism that I saw. Maybe he really
just took exception to all that coin going there way that could have been going to The Way.
I do think they should be shut down as a tax exempt organization while they're under investigation for
the many claims of abuse and deceit that have been brought forward especially since there seems to be such an organized network of deceit, hindrance and obfuscation.
So should the Way Nash, except that there don't seem to be any current suits or legal actions pending against them.
That has nothing to do with VPW though. Or maybe it does - either way, many people feel that way.
I can't help it that they suck so badly but I don't like it.
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skyrider
Perhaps.....a cult leader's mission is closely aligned with the goals of a community organizer. To get others involved, one has to stir and agitate. As the group becomes more "like-minded".....unity and commitment intensify.
Yep....Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" comes to mind.
For Alinsky, organizing is the process of highlighting whatever he believed to be wrong and convincing people they can actually do something about it. The two are linked. If people feel they don’t have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.
According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside —must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a situation.
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waysider
Wierwille was your classic demagogue. Small peanuts, though, really, compared to some of the more widely known demagogues that history has produced, such as Adolph Hitler and Joe McCarthy.
"But though there is no difference in this respect between the best demagogue and the worst, both of them having to present their cases equally in terms of melodrama, there is all the difference in the world between the statesman who is humbugging the people into allowing him to do the will of God, in whatever disguise it may come to him, and one who is humbugging them into furthering his personal ambition and the commercial interests of the plutocrats who own the newspapers and support him on reciprocal terms."....George Bernard Shaw
SOURCE
edited for spelling
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johnj
VP also targeted evangelical Christians and seminary training, largely I think because they were a threat to him. People with theological training are esp a threat because they have the research/ language tools to identify the damage he was doing the Bible passages and be able to answer them. He used the pejorative label "Tradition" to attack anyone who differed with him.
When in comes right down to it, VPW and TWI attacked everyone but themselves, because trying to tear others down was the method they used to try to build themselves up. The sad result was that when people left TWI (the 98%), they felt they had no where else to go for fellowship, because VP had done such a good job of destroying them in his followers' eyes.
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Rocky
Not all community organizers take things to that extreme. And, btw, anyone who was politically to the left of Attila the Hun was also demonized by Wierwille... and that much continues with many former followers.
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skyrider
Of course, not all community organizers take things to that extreme.....nor do all "ministers" have security guys patrolling the surrounding roads or bodyguards or motorcoaches or target traditional churches.
And, despite wierwille's rhetoric, spiritual or otherwise.....he used all the levers of big beauracracy, central control, dependency followers, squelching individuality, corporate trained personnel (corps), sunday teaching tapes, all major events with wierwille front and center, diminished region/state authority and petty cash accounts, rogue twig leaders were pruned from "way tree," all monies funneled to hq, bless patrol at roa (tsa agents?), favors and perks to inner circle, etc. etc. Wierwille used his levers of power to rule with a tyrannical hand......and his underlings splashed his name and picture on the "wierwille magazine" for decades.
In targeting the RCC and other churches, wierwille manipulated his followers in a covert agenda. He took his message to the youth.....the downtrodden, the outcasts, the hippies, the misfits. Sound familiar? No, not all fit into those categories, but large swaths did and the swell of momentum continued. He demagogued his opponents....stirring and agitating twi followers to do the same....and yet, twi became just another religion unto itself.
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chockfull
This is an interesting parallel. An education and a career is a solution against radical fundamentalism. I would definitely consider TWI as radical fundamentalism, as their viewpoints are very exclusive of other Christian organizations and denominations.
TWI itself keeps people in lower education tiers and keeps people from dedicating themselves to a profession through high levels of time commitments (average TWI activities are 5-7x per week) and alternative goals setting (i.e. Way Disciple, Way Corps in place of college and profession).
TWI controls the amount of education people are likely to obtain through their debt policy (i.e. it is against "the Word" to be in debt for any reason including student loans). In this day and age an education beyond high school is a formidable expense. Most of the modern population offset this expense through federal student loan programs, which are approved quite liberally. Once a young person has an education, the higher salary they are able to obtain allows them to pay off the student loans throughout their working career at very negotiable rates. There are also programs such as working in school districts that have high levels of poverty that allow for the forgiveness of all student loans. But none of these are available to TWI youngsters. There are some exeptions to this - for example, many TWI Staff members are paid close to minimum wage. This allows their children to attend school - tuition and books - utilizing Pell Grants, which are free money for education for those living on the poverty line. So in other words, taxpayers with productive jobs who pay income tax and businesses within our country who pay high taxes pay for staff kids college. Not to derail too far but it's a travesty of justice that a small business owner taxed at 50% of their corporate income can't afford to pay for their own kids college but the 50% tax pays for TWI staff kids education.
But back on point, for TWI members attending local fellowships, the high levels of control over finances (i.e. debt policy) prevent young people from attending college on the average.
Professions are another category of control. To advance in a profession usually requires some dedication outside of normal business hours. This doesn't have to be extensive - maybe 10 hours a week outside. TWI however, with high levels of activity (for example, fellowships 3x/week, witnessing 1-2x per week, Adv. Class grads meetings, Branch, Limb meetings, leadership training meetings) takes up all of that time. Also, classes, which are run multiple times per year. The FNC is slated to run 2-3x per year (takes 1 month approx), INT 1x, other classes 1x. When classes are run, this takes up practically all time outside of work, all centered around the new students, but multiple hearings of the same material helps indoctrinate class crews also. So there is very little time to do anything towards a profession and the development of one. Things that are ruled out: Professional conferences (weekends usually conflict with some major TWI meeting), travel (some professions such as military are shielded from this in TWI), local networking meetings (or if you go, it's from a "witnessing" perspective), studying for advanced certifications, moving for a better professional position (have to consider the "household" primarily).
So the members of TWI due to the amount of control of TWI have lower levels of education and profession. Now this is a generality, there are always those individuals that resist the system and maintain a certain amount of control over their own lives. Usually these unique individuals don't last long in TWI - they are chased out for various reasons. TWI is not an organization that tolerates free thought.
But if you want to see the fruit of a cult - the negative impact of a cult - just look at these things. Control over education. Control over profession. Control over time and money. Base essentials that help an individual with individual freedoms and the development of free thought. Don't give these things up and don't let our young people do it either.
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chockfull
1) RC Church - Has the most amount of money, followers, and if you attack them it's an easy step to group all major Christian denominations in. Calling all their trinkets, statues, necklaces, artifacts "idols" is an easy sell.
2) Women - this is relatively self-explanatory. VP shows his true misogynistic colors all over, but one highlight is in TW living in love. He would never receive holy spirit i.e. SIT "with any woman around". Nobody could exploit the young girls like VP did without having a low value opinion of women in general. That justified using them for VP. Just as a side note many times this type of pathology stems back to child abuse. I would not be surprised to see some form of abuse in VP's childhood whether by a parent, relative, or sibling.
3) Jews - this one to me is harder to pinpoint but I will attribute it to VP's known affinity for conspiracy theory.
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OperaBuff
Great thread for discussion. Generally speaking, isn't this how it works: take position A, whatever the topic or belief may be, and then bend all opposing positions to your advantage. Play all games, run all debates, lead all discussions according to the rules you choose.
Remember how VPW would rail from his lecturrn sometimes on how he would be willing to debate any leadership from RC or Baptist or any other church, but that such leaders should "leave my keedz alone"? Did he ever actually participate in such a debate though? Of course not; he needed them to remain as a distant, threatening, bendable target.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
he would have lost the debate, exposing his ignorance of Greek, Hebrew/Aramaic, Church History, etc. becoming a laughing stock and butt of jokes
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geisha779
Okay, I have to admit that it takes some talent to set up the entire body of Christ as enemy to people who claim to be Christian. It takes talent or some kind of strange Voodoo magic to convince a large group of people they are the only ones on the entire planet who have the complete package. It wasn't just the RC's it was everyone else whom we considered inferior or demon possessed. That kind of arrogance breeds serious contempt.
He had to set it up that way.....because with time and exposure to the church at large that contempt begins to reflect poorly just where it should....on the ones who are full of contempt.
In fairness though....many Evangelicals cast a suspicious eye toward the Catholic Church. It is not just TWI.
As for the issue of women, VP, and the apologists....I think that kind of misogyny stems from deep seated insecurity and fear. It doesn't stem from Jesus or His relationships with women. Jesus was revolutionary in His attitude toward women. Consider that the most amazing theological discourse in the Gospels was given to a woman.....an outcast and an adulterer. He saw past it all right to her heart and revealed himself to her. Heart tugging and beautiful. That is a far cry from a parked motorcoach.
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GeorgeStGeorge
And vice versa. :)
George
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geisha779
Very true :)
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OperaBuff
Perhaps so. Or, who knows, it may have been an interesting debate. My point is that there was no way he would ever have agreed to do it. The risks were simply too great to take. He couldn't risk losing stature in his keedz's eyes. Not with all that money rolling in. Not to mention the free tang.
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waysider
Maybe, but couldn't he have just "reached up in Daddy's cookie jar"?
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WordWolf
I still think that education and a good job insulates against radical fundamentalism
like twi. Education means practice with thinking and evaluating, which is something.
A good job means someone's invested in their own present and future. They have
things they care about, and won't just drop their life because someone else wants
them to.
Ok, why do I think these were/are targets?
1) The Roman Catholic Church. vpw was against any church structure, but went after
the RCC rather vocally. Why? On the one hand, there's doctrines he could attack
easily (Mary worship and statues of saints and patron saints are easy targets.)
On the other hand, as a man who sometimes lauded his Germanic heritage to the
skies, the group Martin Luther objected to in Germany was something to object to
as well. On the third hand, vpw was fond of getting some information from esoteric
sources, even if those sources wore tinfoil hats to block the CIA scanners.
He taught lcm to use them too- and lcm really thought JP II had bought an aircraft
carrier.
Why are they still hated? It's possible there's some logical reasons, but most
really respond "hating them was good enough for vpw so it's good enough for me."
2) Women. vpw was denigrating of women long before he hijacked the hippies. By his
own account, he was contemptuous of women and applauded Stiles for being rude to his
own wife. (Was he really? According to vpw, he was, but that may have been another lie.
We know vpw WANTED Stiles to be rude to his wife, which is the detail here.)
Yet, he practically worshipped R1nker. What happened? Why the sharp disconnect?
As I see it, there was a contempt and a hatred that suddenly turned to respect
and SHAME (according to his own descriptions.) Hate women and suddenly respect one
and feel shame? This makes sense if his hatred was masking a deep INSECURITY which
he aimed at women. He insulted them because he felt THREATENED by them. Those who
were worthy of deep EARNED respect made him almost submissive in response- like the
chihuahua who barks nonstop then goes silent when the Rottweiler passes by.
All other women were pushed down so insecure little vpw could feel "taller" by
comparison. What makes it worse is that-until he turned part of twi into a
stable of potential sex crime victims for himself and got twi'ers to worship him-
he wasn't really as successful with women as he felt he DESERVED. He wanted lots
of women to kiss his posterior, and they saw more of what he really was rather
than how he saw himself. When he wanted to fool women, we know he succeeded
decades later with some women much younger than himself. With the young and
naive, he had his targets.
As for those who still do, I think this is as much about their OWN insecurities as
anything else. They find so little to laud of themselves that they feel tall only
when someone else is pushed down.
3) Jews.
A) Another instance of his "I'm siding with my fellow Germans, so..."
B) Another instance of his "the people with the tinfoil hats say..."
C) Another instance of "I'm insecure so I will target someone else and blame them
for all the ills of society." If he was operating now, he'd be targeting Muslims
and more current whipping boys.
Those who still do it, do it out of ignorance, and to have a target.
4) "The establishment."
vpw tried to make himself the ONLY information source for our lives, and any
"establishment" people were direct threats to that. They could show him up
as an amateur in many things and less than average while he's claiming to be
an authority. It undermines his throne, and makes him feel insecure.
Feeding vpw's ego was a big part of twi, whether it was with pliant women,
cash, luxuries, or adoration.
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Steve Lortz
I remember at some point, possibly during in residence corps training, hearing that Communism "had a life of its own" and was therefore driven by debbil spurts. That's why it had spread so fast, and was going to take over the whole world by the time of the gathering together. It was less than a year or so after I left TWI that Pope John Paul II brought down the Soviet Empire [actual history abbreviated for effect, but the result was the same].
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
That shouldn't surprise me.
twi information came from undereducated people with bad sources of information
who lacked the skills to tell the difference.
When I was in high school, I started learning about "detente"- and how the US and
"the Evil Empire" the USSR sometimes work together. (Actually, I brought UP the subject
and was taught that word as a result.)
lcm, he was at the podium saying how the US should let the USSR starve and not sell
them food. On the one hand, it would have been bad for our food sales. On the other,
the Bible and lcm made a sharp departure. lcm said to let the USSR starve because
he said they were our "enemy".
Romans 12:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
What happened?
The US didn't let the people of the USSR starve.
The people eventually lightened up, and a few years after lcm's pronouncement,
the Berlin Wall fell and the USSR broke up into its component countries.
Our relations with each of them are pretty good, which is a good thing.
That made sense according to the Bible and according to diplomacy and politics.
It contradicted lcm who had no education in diplomacy and politics,
and it seems his education in the Bible was deficient.
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100% Free
If it wasn't so tragic it would actually be funny. It was all so stupid when you look at it on paper.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
here, here
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