I agree, Twinky. I am in awe of God. I love God. I have reverence for God. I worship God. Although I recognize His power and authority, I don't fear Him in the sense of being terrified of Him.
What about Romans 2:4 (the goodness [often translated "kindness"] of God leadeth thee to repentance)?
I don't need to be afraid of God to be obedient to Him, as best I understand His will.
I won't argue doctrine; just putting in my two cents.
I loved my earthly father. He was kind, loved his family devotedly, gave his life for us in fact; he was light on discipline (that was Mum's job) but when he said No, he meant No! In all my growing years he spanked me once; well deserved; and I live with the reason why and mended my ways ever since.
But be afraid of him? Be terrorized by him? Fear him? Utterly laughable.
I mended my ways because of his love and his forbearance. Because he loved me. Because he would do whatever he could so that I could enjoy my life. Because he treated me kindly, tenderly, not oppressively.
And so I perceive God. My heavenly father wouldn't want to terrorize me any more than my human father. Surely?
By contrast, my Mum disciplined us hard and tightly. Restricted what I could do. She loved me and didn't want me to make mistakes. Did I respect that? No!!!! I grew into an angry adolescent. I hated her and we had major rows. I ran away from home as soon as I could (at age 18).
My father's dying wish was that my mother and I would make up. At the end of his life he devoted himself to trying to reconcile us. And when he died...I knew that it would honor him, to make up with my Mum.
Actually she is a very good, supportive, wonderful woman. It took me growing up to see that. If I end up half the wonderful woman she is, I'll be well pleased. I'd do anything to help her and improve her life. She loves to visit me (I love that too) and it would be nice if she came to live with me.
Where you guys get your fear (terror) of God I really don't know.
What role models did you have, growing up?
What role models from your earthly bosses?
Are you spiritual adolescents, still?
What kind of relationship can you have, really, with someone you are afraid of?
No ways tender as a nursing mother, lovingly reaching out hands to you, a relationship to cast all your cares upon.
Those are a great many questions. :) I may look at the fear of the Lord a bit differently than Steve or Nanten00 but I do understand what they are saying.....and what you are saying. Here is what Jesus said: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
If you take a close look at scripture and those who came in direct contact with God almighty......Job, for example....who was a righteous guy......what was his reaction when confronted directly by God? How does anyone in scripture react to Him....even His voice? Knowing God is all powerful, completely holy and perfectly righteous and then recognizing ourselves in relation to Him, we as finite flawed and sinful humans.....fear is an appropriate response.
But.....the good news is.....Jesus Christ. The gospel message and how we can be reconciled to this holy and all powerful God. It is the goodness of God which leads us to repentance, but that goodness is not how most of us immediately define goodness. It is that perfect right and unimaginable goodness that leads us to repent of our sins....to recognize our sinful nature and to abhor sin. I really don't know how to articulate this, but you mentioned your dad....I bet he was a great guy because he raised a lovely daughter. To liken God to your earthy father and your relationship to him makes sense except......your father is not God. God is not like us.
Did you need an advocate with your father? Could you approach Him on your own merit? Could you come to Him sin and all and still be in a relationship with him? Can you do that with God? No....we need an advocate.....God needed a sacrifice for us to be reconciled to Him. His own beloved Son. A blameless, spotless, and perfect sacrifice which He Himself provided. That is the love and goodness of God. That is how God loves us....we sing about that amazing love. That amazing goodness.
What about a world under judgement that doesn't recognize the judge as having authority....no fear of God. But, everyone will fear Him one day. It won't just be respect or awe .... but fear. The scripture speaks of men trying to hide under rocks from God. God has wrath and the scriptures speak of that being a burning wrath. What are we saved from? The wrath to come and God's anger and wrath sure scare me. I pray for those I loved to be saved.
I don't know Twinky but I think a healthy recognition of God as He is and the appropriate response really is the beginning for us.....it leads us to relationship. I have to tell you though....I still get a bit unnerved sometimes.....not because God is bad but because I can be bad. He is holy......I know He won't contend with me for too long....because it would break me.....as it is when He bends me I am usually pretty miserable. but eventually thankful.
Fear of God.....yeah I have it. Maybe that makes me a spiritual adolescent, but my comfort or my security doesn't rest in my hands it is in the Lords and that gives me peace.
...Knowing God is all powerful, completely holy and perfectly righteous and then recognizing ourselves in relation to Him, we as finite flawed and sinful humans.....fear is an appropriate response.
But.....the good news is.....Jesus Christ. The gospel message and how we can be reconciled to this holy and all powerful God.
...
He is holy......I know He won't contend with me for too long....because it would break me.....as it is when He bends me I am usually pretty miserable. but eventually thankful.
And yet, who did JC hang out with? People in pubs, ordinary guys, prostitutes, wasters, ne'er do wells... He knows our weaknesses and loves us in spite of. If JC in all his goodness wasn't ashamed or too embarrassed or too "holy" to mix with them...why should we be afraid to present ourselves to God, in all our weaknesses? And to ask him for help, protection, whatever... as we might ask a loving earthly father? Who loves us despite our selfishness and adolescent antagonism.
God's goodness and lovingkindness confronts us... urges a more worthy endeavor... not terror of him. Surely that would just make any "recipient" (?) to want to hide under a rock - not seek the protection of the Rock.
Maybe, Geisha, we'll just have to differ about this.
It's for each of us to form our own relationship with our Father. He loves us dearly no matter where we're coming from.
Fear? Yes and no. I feared God all my life as a Roman Catholic because I believed my eternal fate was in the hands of a somewhat whimsical bizarre force. I knew Christ but abstractly, not in a personal way. The personal relationship was something I pursued on my own, to be honest. Life seemed too abstract in their playbook. The only people that seemed bullet proof lived lives of extreme physical denial and hardship and were cast as "Saints". I was no saint, I knew it and figured I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of coming out good on the other side.
Through Christ I see God and what I see is different than most of that. I see concern, love, forgiveness, effort, direction, purpose, intelligence, a connection to His creation. I won't say God "makes sense" to me now, that would be presumptuous to the nth degree but through Christ I see my place in God's world or I might put it that I have a place in God's world, one that He wants for me.
Acceptance is a big word in all of that for me. As an RC I never felt or understood myself to be very simply accepted by God, with or without Jesus Christ. I was afraid because it seemed as if the odds were very much against me and at best I'd be the last one out of Purgatory to turn off the lights.
Through Christ I feel the odds are very much in my favor, the idea that humanity is God's creation and that we have a destiny of God's design - that comes together for me through Jesus Christ.
I do fear God however, knowing all of that now. I can't brand my own experience into everyone else but for me there was a "train wreck" moment, the light at the end was long gone, where I felt the whole thing barreling down the track at me like a runaway train and it hit me as hard as it could hit anyone. Talk about jumping the tracks. At that point the dark abyss looked pretty inviting by comparison. And then - I realized God's love, straight and pure. Gently but forcefully pulling me up and out and in. Love in the face of another person. The goodness of God is so powerful it is somewhat overwhelming. From there the entire reality of Jesus Christ came into clear focus, it meant something, it was real, powerful beyond what I'd ever thought and as real as my own skin. And so it's been ever since.
God I would say is like the ocean to me, which I love. I swim like a porous rock but I love the water. The life, the power, the strength of the tides and waves, the ebb and flow of it all, the sparkle and tint of the sun on it, through it, the smells, the blues and the greens. I'm very careful in and around the water, the ocean. It doesn't play by my rules, I play by it's rules. I fear what it can do, could do, I love what it is and does and that I can enjoy it. Having a "Rock" in the midst of that, a place that's my own, means something to me.
God is like that, to me. Fear? I would say it's part of the awareness I have of God, yes but not it's entirety. Beyond my scope and grasp but through Christ, an entrance, a means to understand and join together with. In my clearest moments I can be carried with Him, confident that I'm in Good Hands.
And yet, who did JC hang out with? People in pubs, ordinary guys, prostitutes, wasters, ne'er do wells... He knows our weaknesses and loves us in spite of. If JC in all his goodness wasn't ashamed or too embarrassed or too "holy" to mix with them...why should we be afraid to present ourselves to God, in all our weaknesses? And to ask him for help, protection, whatever... as we might ask a loving earthly father? Who loves us despite our selfishness and adolescent antagonism.
God's goodness and lovingkindness confronts us... urges a more worthy endeavor... not terror of him. Surely that would just make any "recipient" (?) to want to hide under a rock - not seek the protection of the Rock.
Maybe, Geisha, we'll just have to differ about this.
It's for each of us to form our own relationship with our Father. He loves us dearly no matter where we're coming from.
Yes, Jesus came for the sinner, but He didn't say "I'm okay your okay....He said repent and He said follow me. He said be ye holy as I am holy. He basically told people they were clueless. He didn't party in the pubs or leave people there.....He leads us away from sin. He meets us where we are and then He tells us to turn the other way.....He changes us. He transforms us.......and it is Jesus who will present us to God, He is doing a work in us. So, yes, by all means pray!
And yes, God loves us dearly.....but, because of where we were coming from Jesus had to suffer and die and God raised Him from the dead........ I don't want to confuse what the love of God means......it is not a blanket acceptance of everything and a come as you are love feast. God says repent....that means we are sorry and stop sinning and God does demand obedience. He absolutely knows our form...He knows our weakness and He knows what it means to be tempted......that's what we go to Him for help with. It is not a wink and a nod....it is a greater love.
When we seek help it is not so much for our own conflicted desires but our desire to be more like Him. That is the desire that grows in us and that is the blessing and goodness of God. Without the fear of God we never will get there.
Hope that makes sense.....maybe we are saying the same thing just differently.
I think some of the confusion about what "the fear of the Lord" is comes from an inadequate understanding of what "fear" itself is.
Fear is an emotion, a signal from the hormonal system. The hormones constitute a chemical communication system God designed into us to act in concert with the electrical signals of the nervous system.
Emotions move us to do things. That's why they are called eMOTIONs. Different emotions move us to do different things. Emotions prompted by adrenaline move us to prepare for flight or fight. Emotions caused by oxytocin move us to bond. Fear is an emotion that causes us to get into right relation with the object of our fear.
The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking distance. The right relation with the IRS is to have our filings accurate and on time, and our taxes paid up. Fear is inspired by recognizing that there is something outside ourselves that has more power than we have, and is free of our will, and could harm us if it wanted to.
The right relation with the Lord is one of humble obedience on our part.
The fear of the Lord is inspired by the magnificence of His creation, both on the macroscopic level of gazing at the stars on a clear night and the microscopic level of considering the intricacies of the chemical organization of cellular biology, and for those who are willing to consider it, the synchronicity of His grace and providence.
Fear of the Lord results in obedience to Him.
People try to inspire in us the fear of their own selves by whipping us. God doesn't do that. The perversion of Godly fear is where terror comes from. God is not going to thrash those who refure to be obedient to Him. He is finally going to allow them to take the consequences of violating the nature of the creation He designed. And when His mercy and grace are withdrawn, not being in right relation with Him, not obeying Him, will feel very much like wrath.
The whole point of the fear of the Lord is willing obedience.
The whole point of Wierwille was willingly doing whatever he damn-well-pleased. The Lord is not a senile uncle who we are no longer expected to obey. The Lord is the LORD, who we are expected to willingly obey.
And in its true sense, the fear of the Lord is the antidote to the deceitfulness and foolishness of my own heart.
O.K., here's the thing. The CEO's leadership of these corporations splinter groups are knowingly marketing a product that has been proven to be both defective and harmful. Yet, they continue to market it. If we were talking about hula hoops or widget flanges, most reasonable people would understand the deception.
Maybe this helps.. Maybe not.. Quoted from a Hebrew source:
Fear and awe are different from one another. Our tradition is not of one mind when it comes to the meaning of yirat
shamayim, fear of God. Medieval scholars discussed the difference between fear of punishment, on the one hand,
and awe in the presence of God’s majesty, on the other. They also debated the relationship between fear and love of
God and the relative importance of each one. Which is more important: to love God or fear God? While the Talmud
says, “Everything is in the hands of heaven, except for fear of God,” (Berachot 33b) others claimed, “Greater is one
who acts out of love than one who acts out of fear.” (Sotah 31a) Ultimately, the sages recognized that these two
were connected to one another. In Pirkei Avot we are taught: “Be not like the servant who ministers to the master
for the sake of receiving reward...and let the fear f heaven be upon you.” (Avot 1:3)
There are a great many references in the Bible and in our liturgy to the importance of expressing fear of God. In the
prayer for the new month which we recite on the Sabbath we ask God to bless us with a life in which there is “fear
of heaven and fear of sin… a life in which there is love of Torah and fear of heaven.” Our tradition suggests that we
should not be too casual in the presence of God and that to experience fear and trembling is a fundamental part of
the religious experience. But we tend not to talk about yirat shamayim today. Rabbi Byron Sherwin writes,
“Despite the considerable discussion of yirah in classical Jewish literature, modern Jewish thinks have largely
ignored the notion of yirah of God... (Rabbi Louis) Jacobs correctly observes that religion devoid of yirat
shamayim [fear of God/heaven] tends to become reduced to comfortable sentimentality.”
Personally, IMHO these guys have no respect or fear for God when they continue to cause chaos, and never accept responsibility for it. Maybe they are hoping God will overlook the mess behind them with their bright smile.
Many of Jesus' parables include fear of the Lord as an important part of the point of the story.
The man who buries his talent has it taken away from him, the goats are put into eternal fire, the man at the banquet without clothes is thrown out, the 5 unprepared virgins are shut out, etc. All the stories include both reward for the faithful and punishment for the unfaithful (which the Bible calls Law and Gospel). Perhaps this is not so much fear of the Lord as it is fear of the consequences of consciously spurning the Lord's commands.
I think God always wants us to respond to his love, but the fear is the backup, which is all too often needed, even with the "best" of us.
Fear is like pain. Without pain we'd continue to use our injured hands/etc until we destroyed them. Perhaps you're read the material in Where is God When it Hurts about how the lack of pain is a key element in lepers literally destroying themselves by using injured parts. When doctors replaced missing pain with warning systems using lights and sounds, people ignored them.
Pain and fear both play a part because our sinful natures always pull us away from God and holiness, and sin is too dumb to do the right thing without some persuasion.
Yes, and these TWI leaders are like moral lepers. This is why scripture talks about consciences "seared with a hot iron". They continue to think they are right, holy, God's true representative, and yet the fruit they produce is putrid. Lives corrupted, people hurt, but they still sit in their councils and judge in error. VPW like a leper couldn't feel the pain he was inflicting on his sexual victims. LCM the same way.
I guess maybe the thing to consider is that Jesus took what was due us......He stood in our stead. He was totally blameless...He never sinned. God is perfectly righteous to have wrath against sin and unrighteousness. That is the right response, and that wrath had to be answered somewhere. God is so merciful and good and loving that He provided a sacrifice and answered for our sins. We didn't have anything to do with that...it is God's amazing love and goodness that saves us.
Some people argue that they hadn't even been born or sinned when Jesus paid the price or even still that they are not so bad......they don't need a Savior from sin. Some say God is going to have to take me as I am, I tried my best, if it isn't good enough so be it. To me, that shows a lack of the fear of God. A healthy recognition of God as Almighty, Holy, Just, and Righteous helps us to understand His awesome love for us IMO.
To me, it doesn't work when we think God will bend for us....He has already displayed His love in Jesus Christ.....it only works when we accept that we need Him and we recognize His love and bend to His will. There is great joy, peace, and wonder in knowing God.
That is me...I am a Christian....I know others have differing opinions. I also know this opinion can be an affront to some....that is not my aim, it is simply the message of the gospel. No one forces us to accept it. At least not in this country.
Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel
bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my
shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the
consequences I worked hard to earn.
Well said, WW. I'm well aware that God could squash me like a bug for any of my lapses into less than perfect behavior. I am unspeakably grateful for his mercy and grace and for the sacrifice He made for all mankind. Since I am human and will undoubtedly screw up again, I'm also thankful for chances to improve my behavior.
Yes, and these TWI leaders are like moral lepers. This is why scripture talks about consciences "seared with a hot iron". They continue to think they are right, holy, God's true representative, and yet the fruit they produce is putrid. Lives corrupted, people hurt, but they still sit in their councils and judge in error. VPW like a leper couldn't feel the pain he was inflicting on his sexual victims. LCM the same way.
Their warning systems are long gone.
Those are EXACTLY the symptoms of "respecting" God rather than fearing Him.
Psalm 36:1-2 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin."
Why is it such a horrible thing to fear God?
Because fear is believing in reverse?
Because fear is sand in the machinery of life?
Because fear always encases, always enslaves, always binds?
Who taught us those things?
Yes, WordWolf, fear IS a strong emotion, but it isn't just any old emotion. It is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of our fear. It is a Godly emotion the Creator designed into us for our own safety.
Cowering is a foolish response to the fear of God. The proper response is to get your butt into gear and obey God. That's what Wierwille NEVER did, in spite of all the "respect" VP had for God. If you are humbly obedient to God, then there are no consequences from God that you need to look forward to with dread.
Cowering is a foolish response to the fear of God. The proper response is to get your butt into gear and obey God. That's what Wierwille NEVER did, in spite of all the "respect" VP had for God. If you are humbly obedient to God, then there are no consequences from God that you need to look forward to with dread.
Love,
Steve
Job never knew why he was tested....God didn't owe him an explanation and Job understood that when confronted by God. Job suffered greatly and he was a righteous and obedient man. Some Christians obey God unto horrible and painful deaths and the result is often that others believe.
I don't think this is what you are implying, but in TWI we had a mindset that if we believed properly and were obedient to what we thought was the word, we would have a hedge of protection around us...... it doesn't work that way. Paul was obedient and he felt deserted by all but a handful, Peter knew how he was going to suffer and die....Jesus told him.
Whether it is love or fear which motivates us I don't believe obedience is quid pro quo. Faith is tested, we are tried.....and sometimes we never understand why something bad happens. Sometimes we need the rain to grow in faith.
I could never accept that in twi...it made me angry when people spoke of holiness, or the fear of God or that bad things can and do happen to obedient Christians. God displays His strength in our weakness and sometimes our suffering glorifies Him. Isn't it His glory, and not our obedience that matters?
I see both sides of the discussion, and I think both are right- to a point.
However, I think we're arguing about why this apple doesn't taste orange-y enough.
Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language.
That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage"
but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally
means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".)
There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy.
Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or
as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that
operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that.
(For that matter, words CHANGE in meaning, too. The KJV uses "prevent" in
I Thessalonians where "precede" is the modern translation of the Greek word,
and the word "gay" has moved around a LOT in the 20th century. For that matter,
if you're in 2 different countries, the English word "fag" can have VERY
different meanings, and the word "faggot" used to be a pile of wood.
I saw an online signature calling someone a "gay fag", then pointing out they
just called them a "happy cigarette.")
The phrase "fear of God" is often rendered "REVERENCE" in modern versions.
I think the word "AWE" might be better. The word "FEAR" meant a STRONG EMOTION
without specifying it was NEGATIVE-but it was STRONG.
This makes sense to me.
Look- as a parent, you want your child to have a deep RESPECT for you, and take
you very, very seriously. This means they'd want to PLEASE you, and feel bad
when they knew that you'd told them to do something, they did the opposite,
and they suffered some consequence. (They took the car out when you said
they weren't ready and damaged the car, they drank underage and now are feeling
like a knife is cutting through their brain.)
Some people really hang on the words of some celebrity or other notable, and
will freak out if they disagree. They'll immediately run to do something to
conform to that person's specifications- get a haircut, change their wardrobe,
whatever. They really respect that celebrity, and hold them in awe.
Heck, in twi we knew people who ran out and conformed all the time-
-mogs have suits? Lose the jeans and get a suit
-mogs have little briefcases? I'm off to the briefcase store
-lcm tries to grow a little moustache? I'm developing a little coffee stain under my nose
lcm and vpw took the place of awe, respect and reverence that God Almighty was supposed
to get all along.
Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel
bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my
shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the
consequences I worked hard to earn.
Acts 2:42-43
King James Version (KJV)
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Luke 7:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Luke 1:64-65
King James Version (KJV)
64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.
65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.
Matthew 28:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Some people argue that they hadn't even been born or sinned when Jesus paid the price or even still that they are not so bad......they don't need a Savior from sin. Some say God is going to have to take me as I am, I tried my best, if it isn't good enough so be it. To me, that shows a lack of the fear of God. A healthy recognition of God as Almighty, Holy, Just, and Righteous helps us to understand His awesome love for us IMO.
To me, it doesn't work when we think God will bend for us....He has already displayed His love in Jesus Christ.....it only works when we accept that we need Him and we recognize His love and bend to His will. There is great joy, peace, and wonder in knowing God.
(snip)
Sounds like we're agreeing on this much, if not more.
Obedience to God, who is Awesome, and whose attributes are all Awesome.
Awe and reverence-"fear of God"-bowing one's head while on bended knee before a God who
didn't REQUIRE it but deserves so much more, and who doesn't motivate me to the
MODERN meaning of the word "fear". He is worthy of obedience and the proper response
when DISobedient to Him is embarrassment, shame, and humility, with a desire to do
better next time because He deserved better THIS time and I didn't do it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
11
9
12
Popular Days
Dec 8
13
Dec 13
12
Dec 14
12
Dec 10
7
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 10 posts
Steve Lortz 11 posts
geisha779 9 posts
johnj 12 posts
Popular Days
Dec 8 2011
13 posts
Dec 13 2011
12 posts
Dec 14 2011
12 posts
Dec 10 2011
7 posts
Popular Posts
WordWolf
Admitting you produced something, then improved it later, is a good thing in most of the world. If you're claiming you're superior and, in effect, your work is perfect because it comes from God Almi
Steve Lortz
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). W
Linda Z
I agree, Twinky. I am in awe of God. I love God. I have reverence for God. I worship God. Although I recognize His power and authority, I don't fear Him in the sense of being terrified of Him.
What about Romans 2:4 (the goodness [often translated "kindness"] of God leadeth thee to repentance)?
I don't need to be afraid of God to be obedient to Him, as best I understand His will.
I won't argue doctrine; just putting in my two cents.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Those are a great many questions. :) I may look at the fear of the Lord a bit differently than Steve or Nanten00 but I do understand what they are saying.....and what you are saying. Here is what Jesus said: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
If you take a close look at scripture and those who came in direct contact with God almighty......Job, for example....who was a righteous guy......what was his reaction when confronted directly by God? How does anyone in scripture react to Him....even His voice? Knowing God is all powerful, completely holy and perfectly righteous and then recognizing ourselves in relation to Him, we as finite flawed and sinful humans.....fear is an appropriate response.
But.....the good news is.....Jesus Christ. The gospel message and how we can be reconciled to this holy and all powerful God. It is the goodness of God which leads us to repentance, but that goodness is not how most of us immediately define goodness. It is that perfect right and unimaginable goodness that leads us to repent of our sins....to recognize our sinful nature and to abhor sin. I really don't know how to articulate this, but you mentioned your dad....I bet he was a great guy because he raised a lovely daughter. To liken God to your earthy father and your relationship to him makes sense except......your father is not God. God is not like us.
Did you need an advocate with your father? Could you approach Him on your own merit? Could you come to Him sin and all and still be in a relationship with him? Can you do that with God? No....we need an advocate.....God needed a sacrifice for us to be reconciled to Him. His own beloved Son. A blameless, spotless, and perfect sacrifice which He Himself provided. That is the love and goodness of God. That is how God loves us....we sing about that amazing love. That amazing goodness.
What about a world under judgement that doesn't recognize the judge as having authority....no fear of God. But, everyone will fear Him one day. It won't just be respect or awe .... but fear. The scripture speaks of men trying to hide under rocks from God. God has wrath and the scriptures speak of that being a burning wrath. What are we saved from? The wrath to come and God's anger and wrath sure scare me. I pray for those I loved to be saved.
I don't know Twinky but I think a healthy recognition of God as He is and the appropriate response really is the beginning for us.....it leads us to relationship. I have to tell you though....I still get a bit unnerved sometimes.....not because God is bad but because I can be bad. He is holy......I know He won't contend with me for too long....because it would break me.....as it is when He bends me I am usually pretty miserable. but eventually thankful.
Fear of God.....yeah I have it. Maybe that makes me a spiritual adolescent, but my comfort or my security doesn't rest in my hands it is in the Lords and that gives me peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
And yet, who did JC hang out with? People in pubs, ordinary guys, prostitutes, wasters, ne'er do wells... He knows our weaknesses and loves us in spite of. If JC in all his goodness wasn't ashamed or too embarrassed or too "holy" to mix with them...why should we be afraid to present ourselves to God, in all our weaknesses? And to ask him for help, protection, whatever... as we might ask a loving earthly father? Who loves us despite our selfishness and adolescent antagonism.
God's goodness and lovingkindness confronts us... urges a more worthy endeavor... not terror of him. Surely that would just make any "recipient" (?) to want to hide under a rock - not seek the protection of the Rock.
Maybe, Geisha, we'll just have to differ about this.
It's for each of us to form our own relationship with our Father. He loves us dearly no matter where we're coming from.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Fear? Yes and no. I feared God all my life as a Roman Catholic because I believed my eternal fate was in the hands of a somewhat whimsical bizarre force. I knew Christ but abstractly, not in a personal way. The personal relationship was something I pursued on my own, to be honest. Life seemed too abstract in their playbook. The only people that seemed bullet proof lived lives of extreme physical denial and hardship and were cast as "Saints". I was no saint, I knew it and figured I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of coming out good on the other side.
Through Christ I see God and what I see is different than most of that. I see concern, love, forgiveness, effort, direction, purpose, intelligence, a connection to His creation. I won't say God "makes sense" to me now, that would be presumptuous to the nth degree but through Christ I see my place in God's world or I might put it that I have a place in God's world, one that He wants for me.
Acceptance is a big word in all of that for me. As an RC I never felt or understood myself to be very simply accepted by God, with or without Jesus Christ. I was afraid because it seemed as if the odds were very much against me and at best I'd be the last one out of Purgatory to turn off the lights.
Through Christ I feel the odds are very much in my favor, the idea that humanity is God's creation and that we have a destiny of God's design - that comes together for me through Jesus Christ.
I do fear God however, knowing all of that now. I can't brand my own experience into everyone else but for me there was a "train wreck" moment, the light at the end was long gone, where I felt the whole thing barreling down the track at me like a runaway train and it hit me as hard as it could hit anyone. Talk about jumping the tracks. At that point the dark abyss looked pretty inviting by comparison. And then - I realized God's love, straight and pure. Gently but forcefully pulling me up and out and in. Love in the face of another person. The goodness of God is so powerful it is somewhat overwhelming. From there the entire reality of Jesus Christ came into clear focus, it meant something, it was real, powerful beyond what I'd ever thought and as real as my own skin. And so it's been ever since.
God I would say is like the ocean to me, which I love. I swim like a porous rock but I love the water. The life, the power, the strength of the tides and waves, the ebb and flow of it all, the sparkle and tint of the sun on it, through it, the smells, the blues and the greens. I'm very careful in and around the water, the ocean. It doesn't play by my rules, I play by it's rules. I fear what it can do, could do, I love what it is and does and that I can enjoy it. Having a "Rock" in the midst of that, a place that's my own, means something to me.
God is like that, to me. Fear? I would say it's part of the awareness I have of God, yes but not it's entirety. Beyond my scope and grasp but through Christ, an entrance, a means to understand and join together with. In my clearest moments I can be carried with Him, confident that I'm in Good Hands.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Yes, Jesus came for the sinner, but He didn't say "I'm okay your okay....He said repent and He said follow me. He said be ye holy as I am holy. He basically told people they were clueless. He didn't party in the pubs or leave people there.....He leads us away from sin. He meets us where we are and then He tells us to turn the other way.....He changes us. He transforms us.......and it is Jesus who will present us to God, He is doing a work in us. So, yes, by all means pray!
And yes, God loves us dearly.....but, because of where we were coming from Jesus had to suffer and die and God raised Him from the dead........ I don't want to confuse what the love of God means......it is not a blanket acceptance of everything and a come as you are love feast. God says repent....that means we are sorry and stop sinning and God does demand obedience. He absolutely knows our form...He knows our weakness and He knows what it means to be tempted......that's what we go to Him for help with. It is not a wink and a nod....it is a greater love.
When we seek help it is not so much for our own conflicted desires but our desire to be more like Him. That is the desire that grows in us and that is the blessing and goodness of God. Without the fear of God we never will get there.
Hope that makes sense.....maybe we are saying the same thing just differently.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I think some of the confusion about what "the fear of the Lord" is comes from an inadequate understanding of what "fear" itself is.
Fear is an emotion, a signal from the hormonal system. The hormones constitute a chemical communication system God designed into us to act in concert with the electrical signals of the nervous system.
Emotions move us to do things. That's why they are called eMOTIONs. Different emotions move us to do different things. Emotions prompted by adrenaline move us to prepare for flight or fight. Emotions caused by oxytocin move us to bond. Fear is an emotion that causes us to get into right relation with the object of our fear.
The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking distance. The right relation with the IRS is to have our filings accurate and on time, and our taxes paid up. Fear is inspired by recognizing that there is something outside ourselves that has more power than we have, and is free of our will, and could harm us if it wanted to.
The right relation with the Lord is one of humble obedience on our part.
The fear of the Lord is inspired by the magnificence of His creation, both on the macroscopic level of gazing at the stars on a clear night and the microscopic level of considering the intricacies of the chemical organization of cellular biology, and for those who are willing to consider it, the synchronicity of His grace and providence.
Fear of the Lord results in obedience to Him.
People try to inspire in us the fear of their own selves by whipping us. God doesn't do that. The perversion of Godly fear is where terror comes from. God is not going to thrash those who refure to be obedient to Him. He is finally going to allow them to take the consequences of violating the nature of the creation He designed. And when His mercy and grace are withdrawn, not being in right relation with Him, not obeying Him, will feel very much like wrath.
The whole point of the fear of the Lord is willing obedience.
The whole point of Wierwille was willingly doing whatever he damn-well-pleased. The Lord is not a senile uncle who we are no longer expected to obey. The Lord is the LORD, who we are expected to willingly obey.
And in its true sense, the fear of the Lord is the antidote to the deceitfulness and foolishness of my own heart.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
O.K., here's the thing. The CEO's leadership of these corporations splinter groups are knowingly marketing a product that has been proven to be both defective and harmful. Yet, they continue to market it. If we were talking about hula hoops or widget flanges, most reasonable people would understand the deception.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Fear.. Respect.. Awe..
Maybe this helps.. Maybe not.. Quoted from a Hebrew source:
Personally, IMHO these guys have no respect or fear for God when they continue to cause chaos, and never accept responsibility for it. Maybe they are hoping God will overlook the mess behind them with their bright smile.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johnj
Many of Jesus' parables include fear of the Lord as an important part of the point of the story.
The man who buries his talent has it taken away from him, the goats are put into eternal fire, the man at the banquet without clothes is thrown out, the 5 unprepared virgins are shut out, etc. All the stories include both reward for the faithful and punishment for the unfaithful (which the Bible calls Law and Gospel). Perhaps this is not so much fear of the Lord as it is fear of the consequences of consciously spurning the Lord's commands.
I think God always wants us to respond to his love, but the fear is the backup, which is all too often needed, even with the "best" of us.
Fear is like pain. Without pain we'd continue to use our injured hands/etc until we destroyed them. Perhaps you're read the material in Where is God When it Hurts about how the lack of pain is a key element in lepers literally destroying themselves by using injured parts. When doctors replaced missing pain with warning systems using lights and sounds, people ignored them.
Pain and fear both play a part because our sinful natures always pull us away from God and holiness, and sin is too dumb to do the right thing without some persuasion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yes, and these TWI leaders are like moral lepers. This is why scripture talks about consciences "seared with a hot iron". They continue to think they are right, holy, God's true representative, and yet the fruit they produce is putrid. Lives corrupted, people hurt, but they still sit in their councils and judge in error. VPW like a leper couldn't feel the pain he was inflicting on his sexual victims. LCM the same way.
Their warning systems are long gone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I see both sides of the discussion, and I think both are right- to a point.
However, I think we're arguing about why this apple doesn't taste orange-y enough.
Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language.
That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage"
but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally
means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".)
There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy.
Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or
as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that
operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that.
(For that matter, words CHANGE in meaning, too. The KJV uses "prevent" in
I Thessalonians where "precede" is the modern translation of the Greek word,
and the word "gay" has moved around a LOT in the 20th century. For that matter,
if you're in 2 different countries, the English word "fag" can have VERY
different meanings, and the word "faggot" used to be a pile of wood.
I saw an online signature calling someone a "gay fag", then pointing out they
just called them a "happy cigarette.")
The phrase "fear of God" is often rendered "REVERENCE" in modern versions.
I think the word "AWE" might be better. The word "FEAR" meant a STRONG EMOTION
without specifying it was NEGATIVE-but it was STRONG.
This makes sense to me.
Look- as a parent, you want your child to have a deep RESPECT for you, and take
you very, very seriously. This means they'd want to PLEASE you, and feel bad
when they knew that you'd told them to do something, they did the opposite,
and they suffered some consequence. (They took the car out when you said
they weren't ready and damaged the car, they drank underage and now are feeling
like a knife is cutting through their brain.)
Some people really hang on the words of some celebrity or other notable, and
will freak out if they disagree. They'll immediately run to do something to
conform to that person's specifications- get a haircut, change their wardrobe,
whatever. They really respect that celebrity, and hold them in awe.
Heck, in twi we knew people who ran out and conformed all the time-
-mogs have suits? Lose the jeans and get a suit
-mogs have little briefcases? I'm off to the briefcase store
-lcm tries to grow a little moustache? I'm developing a little coffee stain under my nose
lcm and vpw took the place of awe, respect and reverence that God Almighty was supposed
to get all along.
Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel
bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my
shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the
consequences I worked hard to earn.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I guess maybe the thing to consider is that Jesus took what was due us......He stood in our stead. He was totally blameless...He never sinned. God is perfectly righteous to have wrath against sin and unrighteousness. That is the right response, and that wrath had to be answered somewhere. God is so merciful and good and loving that He provided a sacrifice and answered for our sins. We didn't have anything to do with that...it is God's amazing love and goodness that saves us.
Some people argue that they hadn't even been born or sinned when Jesus paid the price or even still that they are not so bad......they don't need a Savior from sin. Some say God is going to have to take me as I am, I tried my best, if it isn't good enough so be it. To me, that shows a lack of the fear of God. A healthy recognition of God as Almighty, Holy, Just, and Righteous helps us to understand His awesome love for us IMO.
To me, it doesn't work when we think God will bend for us....He has already displayed His love in Jesus Christ.....it only works when we accept that we need Him and we recognize His love and bend to His will. There is great joy, peace, and wonder in knowing God.
That is me...I am a Christian....I know others have differing opinions. I also know this opinion can be an affront to some....that is not my aim, it is simply the message of the gospel. No one forces us to accept it. At least not in this country.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Well said, WW. I'm well aware that God could squash me like a bug for any of my lapses into less than perfect behavior. I am unspeakably grateful for his mercy and grace and for the sacrifice He made for all mankind. Since I am human and will undoubtedly screw up again, I'm also thankful for chances to improve my behavior.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Those are EXACTLY the symptoms of "respecting" God rather than fearing Him.
Psalm 36:1-2 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin."
Why is it such a horrible thing to fear God?
Because fear is believing in reverse?
Because fear is sand in the machinery of life?
Because fear always encases, always enslaves, always binds?
Who taught us those things?
Yes, WordWolf, fear IS a strong emotion, but it isn't just any old emotion. It is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of our fear. It is a Godly emotion the Creator designed into us for our own safety.
Cowering is a foolish response to the fear of God. The proper response is to get your butt into gear and obey God. That's what Wierwille NEVER did, in spite of all the "respect" VP had for God. If you are humbly obedient to God, then there are no consequences from God that you need to look forward to with dread.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Job never knew why he was tested....God didn't owe him an explanation and Job understood that when confronted by God. Job suffered greatly and he was a righteous and obedient man. Some Christians obey God unto horrible and painful deaths and the result is often that others believe.
I don't think this is what you are implying, but in TWI we had a mindset that if we believed properly and were obedient to what we thought was the word, we would have a hedge of protection around us...... it doesn't work that way. Paul was obedient and he felt deserted by all but a handful, Peter knew how he was going to suffer and die....Jesus told him.
Whether it is love or fear which motivates us I don't believe obedience is quid pro quo. Faith is tested, we are tried.....and sometimes we never understand why something bad happens. Sometimes we need the rain to grow in faith.
I could never accept that in twi...it made me angry when people spoke of holiness, or the fear of God or that bad things can and do happen to obedient Christians. God displays His strength in our weakness and sometimes our suffering glorifies Him. Isn't it His glory, and not our obedience that matters?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Wierwille taught us by word and by deed that we were to "respect" God and fear Wierwille.
Soooo... as Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working out for everybody?"
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Acts 2:42-43
King James Version (KJV)
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Luke 7:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Luke 1:64-65
King James Version (KJV)
64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.
65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.
Matthew 28:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Sounds like we're agreeing on this much, if not more.
Obedience to God, who is Awesome, and whose attributes are all Awesome.
Awe and reverence-"fear of God"-bowing one's head while on bended knee before a God who
didn't REQUIRE it but deserves so much more, and who doesn't motivate me to the
MODERN meaning of the word "fear". He is worthy of obedience and the proper response
when DISobedient to Him is embarrassment, shame, and humility, with a desire to do
better next time because He deserved better THIS time and I didn't do it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Wierwille wouldn't recognize RESPECT of God if it came up to him and displayed a Driver's License.
As he did with so many other things, vpw gave lip service to respecting God, and understood
NOTHING about the utter AWESOMENESS of God, the Godness of God Almighty. He could PRETEND to and
give a neat speech, but the words without the soul-deep understanding of the concept was EMPTY.
Compare that to thoughts like, say, George Mueller, who claimed to have read the entire Bible
many times, half of them on his knees. If I go to my knees and kneel in prayer, it is neither
because I am following tradition, nor because I'm afraid of what He will do to me if I do not.
Rather, it is me showing humility (privately) before God Almighty, and coming to Him with an
attitude of being unworthy of His Grace and Awesomeness, but coming to Him anyway.
As for "fearing" vpw or any man, that was unhealthy.
It's been said that of any group of people, some will only do what is right because they fear
punishment for doing wrong- only penalties of law COMPEL them to follow the law.
Others will do what is right because it is right and not because someone has to compel them-
some needing an occasional reminder, others needing none at all.
I suppose, if someone is incapable of serving God and coming to Him in humility and awe,
then a reminder that disobedience can lead to severe consequences may be of some use.
However, I wouldn't want to work alongside any "Christian" who had to be dragged by the
scruff of the neck to do what is right.
Using vpw's explanation of respecting God is as damaging as using vpw's explanation of
the fear of God, and neither is going to actually HELP a Christian if applied.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Since this is completely off-topic, I started a new thread in Doctrinal,
"Fear of God."
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22770-fear-of-god/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
I posted my fear God response in the forum...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.