The main (but unstated) poitn of PFAL was to trash all churches and teachers except VP and TWI, and to inflate VPW above all else as the only guy since the first century who taught the Wored as it had not been known since the first century" (the "audible voice" considered the founding date of TWI).
When you claim to be God-inspired, you can't admit to inaccuracy.
Unfortunately, so many people were iwllin to buy into this deceptive claim. I think it's partly our inner desire to be the only ones who really know the hidden truth, which makes u feel superior.
There is such an irony in ex-TWI leaders like Hendricks and Schneider. They obviously model themselvees after VP, repeat almost all of VP's doctrine, have absorbed TWI's mind set, and teach most of the same things in the same ways.
Yet they avoid ever mentioning that VP is their one true Source, and avoid stating in public and print where they got all their teachings from- VP and TWI. But maybe they learned that from VP too- he never revealed his Sources either.
The main (but unstated) poitn of PFAL was to trash all churches and teachers except VP and TWI, and to inflate VPW above all else as the only guy since the first century who taught the Wored as it had not been known since the first century" (the "audible voice" considered the founding date of TWI).
When you claim to be God-inspired, you can't admit to inaccuracy.
Unfortunately, so many people were willing to buy into this deceptive claim. I think it's partly our inner desire to be the only ones who really know the hidden truth, which makes u feel superior.
Yep, he did that. But to be fair, he did open a Bible and expound on some principles. Initially they were helpful or seemed like he knew something. He spoke confidently and with authority. His teachings were the "hook." I was willing to forgive obvious errors because he taught as no church I'd ever been to. And (unlike himself) I didn't expect him to know it all.
And his followers, twiggies, were vibrant, enthusiastic and full of energy. They wanted and expected to see God at work. They glowed with excitement at walking with God.
I'd been to plenty of churches beforehand. Dull congregations, might be nice enough people, but no outreach, no desire or enthusiasm. And sermons - might be nice enough but no substance.
If you want to know, if you want people excited about God and Godliness; if you want to understand some of the more obscure parts of the Bible...PFAL did that.
I think churches and church people have changed a lot in more recent years. Many churches now have very active community programmes and/or get involved with dispossessed members of the community. Sermons give a better sense of God, the word in action, whatever. Many in the church though are afraid to speak to neighbours, colleagues...they lack the vibrancy and excitement that Wayfers showed.
The church I go to now is very active in building its community; I'm part of several city-wide (denomination-wide) initiatives. And my church minister said: "The main reason people fall into cults [yes, he said cults] is that the church hasn't taught the Bible well enough. For that I apologise." There were many people in this congregation from lots of different backgrounds/denominations, and some had been very badly hurt by legalism, poor teaching, etc.
If God's voice is hidden - even and especially in the church - seekers will go where they think they hear His voice. The answer is clear. Teach the Bible. And let those who hear live it and not be ashamed to speak to others.
That's the part we can all play in defeating those of TWI ilk.
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). Wierwille had to mix some truth in with what he was teaching in order to get people to swallow the poison. He deceitfully PREACHED some truth, even though what he PRACTICED and TAUGHT contradicted the truths he preached.
The Bible says that as many as shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered. The Lord was faithful to His promise, in spite of the fact that we were in a cult, and many people DID get deliverance. What was especially shameful was that Wierwille stole the credit for the deliverance that rightfully belonged to the Lord, and claimed the credit for himself and his class.
The Bible says that as many as shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered. The Lord was faithful to His promise, in spite of the fact that we were in a cult, and many people DID get deliverance. What was especially shameful was that Wierwille stole the credit for the deliverance that rightfully belonged to the Lord, and claimed the credit for himself and his class.
Just my two cents' worth...
Love,
Steve
Speaking for myself......I had to be delivered from the deliverance I received in TWI. It was a good counterfeit and I never would have known had God not been so gracious. Sure, we called on the name of the Lord......but who we called on to save us was some strange hybrid Jesus who was VP's creation. My two cents.
I was never born-again in TWI and I really think that unless one was a Christian going in, they didn't become one in TWI. Saving faith was in short supply and the Jesus I know now is not the same as I confessed in TWI. That is my experience at least.
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). Wierwille had to mix some truth in with what he was teaching in order to get people to swallow the poison. He deceitfully PREACHED some truth, even though what he PRACTICED and TAUGHT contradicted the truths he preached.
The Bible says that as many as shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered. The Lord was faithful to His promise, in spite of the fact that we were in a cult, and many people DID get deliverance. What was especially shameful was that Wierwille stole the credit for the deliverance that rightfully belonged to the Lord, and claimed the credit for himself and his class.
Just my two cents' worth...
Love,
Steve
I think you added the missing piece Steve...
It takes a spoon full of sugar (or more) to help the "medicine" go down... If you get my analogy.
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). Wierwille had to mix some truth in with what he was teaching in order to get people to swallow the poison. He deceitfully PREACHED some truth, even though what he PRACTICED and TAUGHT contradicted the truths he preached.
The Bible says that as many as shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered. The Lord was faithful to His promise, in spite of the fact that we were in a cult, and many people DID get deliverance. What was especially shameful was that Wierwille stole the credit for the deliverance that rightfully belonged to the Lord, and claimed the credit for himself and his class.
Just my two cents' worth...
Love,
Steve
You mean....a culture of sex, drugs, commune-living, sin-erased teachings, generic "righteous-living feel-good" teachings, motorcoach seductions, inner-circle grooming, bum-rushed dissenters, lies, cover-ups, and all that?
You mean....a culture of sex, drugs, commune-living, sin-erased teachings, generic "righteous-living feel-good" teachings, motorcoach seductions, inner-circle grooming, bum-rushed dissenters, lies, cover-ups, and all that?
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, skyrider.
I myself witnessed a miraculous healing when the woman who was undershepherding me prayed in the name of Jesus Christ with a teen-aged girl in the hospital. The girl never took the class; her mom never took the class, but the girl was healed in the name of Jesus Christ. The woman who was undershepherding me was not a hypocrite. She was morally upright, and just as horrified as anyone else when the truth about Wierwille began coming out in 1986-7.
There were times when I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ and got results, years before I ever heard of TWI. There were times when I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ and got results, while I was involved with TWI. There are still times when I pray in the name of Jesus Christ and get results. None of those results were or are because of the magic formula Wierwille taught as "power of attorney." Those results were because the Lord is faithful to His Word, in spite of our ignorance and foolishness.
There were many, many people at the twig level who took the things Wierwille taught about the love of God to heart, and tried to live those things, even though Wierwille himself was a shameless quack, secretly abusing those trusting people.
Not everything that Wierwille taught was wrong, but it was all tainted by his hypocrisy, just as Jesus said was the case with the Pharisees and their teachings.
TWI crushed the love of God out of peoples' hearts as they advanced through the Way Tree (this was back before Martindale began crushing the love of God out of peoples' hearts even before they began advancing).
I remember the exact moment when I finally broke down and surrendered to the flesh, manipulating a couple into signing green cards while I was on Lightbearers. When we got back to campus, I realized what a fool I had been, and that was when I started the process of dis-associating myself from TWI.
Nothing I was personally exposed to in TWI was worse than anything I had been exposed to in the Navy, except for Wierwille's hypocrisy... but then I was never one of the young women he drugged and raped in his motorcoach.
I love God. I know He loved me during the time I was involved with TWI, even in spite of my involvement. I am still as foolish now, just in other ways. But I know God still loves me.
... and I now know that Wierwille was a hypocrite.
Sorry Steve.....I was really just trying to elaborate on your post and state the obvious to johniam.
I agree with you on so many levels.
Thank you, skyrider. I needed to hear that, for a number of reasons not directly related to Greasespot Cafe. Life can suck, in so many ways, but God is still good! Thanks again.
Speaking for myself......I had to be delivered from the deliverance I received in TWI. It was a good counterfeit and I never would have known had God not been so gracious. Sure, we called on the name of the Lord......but who we called on to save us was some strange hybrid Jesus who was VP's creation. My two cents.
I was never born-again in TWI and I really think that unless one was a Christian going in, they didn't become one in TWI. Saving faith was in short supply and the Jesus I know now is not the same as I confessed in TWI. That is my experience at least.
I respect the validity of your experiences in TWI, geisha.
I didn't mean to add to your bad day if I did. It is not personal.....I just have a different take on TWI. I agree there were some lovely people and some truth mixed in.
The way I remember it in TWI is different. More that we gave Jesus lip service at best, but it seems mostly we were about denying Him and elevating the bible. We even thought we operated the Holy Spirit. At least I did. I really don't think that God bypassed His Son to deliver any of us in TWI. Maybe there were people who truly honored the Son, but I never really met any myself. Also, my thinking is that deliverance is not being caught up in that theology and true blessing is being in a love relationship with the Son, truly connected to the vine. Anything else is secondary and I don't think God gives second best. When He truly reveals Himself that the greatest deliverance. I missed that in TWI.
I understand that you and others look back and work things out differently, but personally, I have a very difficult time finding any deliverance in anything I got out of TWI......perceived blessings just seemed to dig me in deeper. It confused me for a long time. Then again, I wasn't saved. Maybe you were. I first listened to the gospel message in TWI and never really heard it correctly. I heard the version with a Jesus who was just a man, my big bro, who wanted me to have stuff. I never came to the cross...I actually mocked the cross and had disdain for it. I never repented. I never understood faith because I had believing. I never honored the Son, He was a means to an end. I received whatever it was that was promoted in session 12 and SIT via PFAL and I believe I had to be delivered from that.
I had to repent and be delivered from all of it......it forced me to my knees.
I appreciate you have a different perspective on certain aspects of your experience, I really do. I can enjoy your contribution and consider what you have to say. It just wasn't the same for me. I didn't mean to seem argumentative. I believe you saw what you did and recognize God in it. And yes, God is faithful, forgiving and God is good!!!
ADD: Sorry...didn't see your post....too funny...both trying to validate the other.
I don't want to take this thread too far a afield or get too doctrinal.....just give me a little latitude or skip my post. For myself, I have considered that just because something happened in TWI in the name of Jesus Christ, that doesn't make it deliverance or even a Christian thing. In Matthew 7 when Jesus said depart I never knew you and sent people to the lake.....He was speaking to those who did things in His name and called Him Lord, Lord. They say to Him.... Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Basically, He sends them to hell.
The demon Jesus cast out in Mark called Jesus the Son of the most High God.....He knew who He was and called Him accordingly. I think that is the only one or one of two accounts in the entire gospel of Mark where Jesus is actually called who He is. Jesus drew huge crowds and had many followers......but who really made an initial lasting confession? Thomas made a conditional confession and didn't believe until after he saw the resurrected Jesus.....Peter denied Him and went fishing. Think about it.....for all the followers Jesus had, at the cross there were 3 Mary's and maybe John.
Scripture is replete with warnings of the genuine and the counterfeit.....signs, miracles and wonders are not always something genuine and of God...... consider the opposition to the first century church that came from people who called themselves a part of it. I doubt the false teachers Paul called out were going around turning people into newts. Signs followed them. That is just no guarantee something is of God. Neither is tongues a guarantee of salvation, the church in Corinth illustrates this and in his epistle Paul opposes the genuine with the counterfeit. He also speaks about receiving another Jesus, gospel and spirit. Paul chastened them for easily putting up with this.
Doesn't it always comes back to a right relationship with Jesus Christ... given our experience with TWI doesn't it really matter? TWI theology boldly opposes Him.....we opposed Him with our confession.....in the bible it is called the spirit of anti-Christ. God doesn't honor that....does He? We know He honors His Son.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly......there were lovely people who did kind things in TWI......I agree we had answered prayer and saw miracles.....I really believe there were genuine Christians caught up in that mess for a time. I have no doubt of that at all. But, the miracles and answered prayer are just not enough for me to dare slap God's name on any of it. I hope that explains a little bit about why I personally react like I do to some of these conversations and certain claims. It is just the way I now look at things....I know others are different but, maybe we can at the least...... consider some of these things.
It really kind of bites to come to terms with what we got tricked into, but God is able to deliver us from it and to heal us. He forgives.
Back to topic. Please forgive the derail. I just wanted to explain myself a bit more as sometimes I think it sounds like I come out of left field and I am on the attack...not so.....sorry to be so
It really kind of bites to come to terms with what we got tricked into, but God is able to deliver us from it and to heal us. He forgives.
Back to topic. Please forgive the derail. I just wanted to explain myself a bit more as sometimes I think it sounds like I come out of left field and I am on the attack...not so.....sorry to be so
Your posts may not be as far off topic as you imagine, geisha!
I left TWI in 1987. My face-on-the-floor repentence moment didn't come until the early spring of 1996, and then it was because of promises I had made during the Momentus training, though the root cause of it all was right out of PFAL. And this thread is about Momentus as well as TWI.
The Lord showed me that I was under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5, I had trusted in man, I had made flesh my arm, and my heart had departed from the Lord, even though my deceitful heart had told me I was still faithfully serving the Lord the whole time. I repented before the Lord, but He let me know He wanted me to repent in front of the same people who had been in the Momentus training with me, so they would know that they could do it too.
I got up in front of a congregational meeting of the Living Word Fellowship, about 60 people including John Lynn. There were about 12 of us there who had realized the damage being inflicted on people by Momentus. People were hospitalized, marriages were breaking up right and left among the grads, and a few had even attempted suicide. We couldn't fathom how the people who were promoting Momentus, mainly John Lynn at that particular time and place, could be so oblivious to the harm they were doing.
John Lynn did not yet know that I had turned against Momentus. When I got up to talk, he was expecting me to promote the training, so I had a few minutes to publicly repent of the promises I had made in Momentus, particularly signing the hold-harmless agreement, before John was on his feet withstanding me to my face. Before the fireworks commenced, every person there heard how to get out from under the curse, by repenting, if they wanted to.
The real poison in PFAL was the idea that we do not have to FEAR the Lord.
Our hearts are deceitful because we believe that everything that comes out of our hearts is right and clean. We can't sense if the thoughts and intents of our hearts are genuinely right or not. Our hearts can convince us that we are serving the Lord, when our hearts have actually departed from Him.
That's why Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. It's an objective standard by which we can judge what is coming out of our hearts.
It is the FEAR of the Lord that drives us to abandon the things that our hearts say are SOOOO right when the Word says they are SOOOO wrong. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. Fear of the Lord is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the Lord!
Wierwille himself evidenced no fear of the Lord, and he taught us that we need only respect God the way we would respect an elderly uncle we were no longer expected to obey. We certainly would not want to tell prospective recruits that they need to fear God. They might not sign the green card if we told them that. A lot of people feared God when they first took PFAL, but that fear was gradually extinguished with deeper involvement in TWI.
What's so bad about not fearing God?
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is in my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked.
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
That's what happened to Wierwille. That's what happened to John Lynn, and all the rest of us to one degree or another. Those of us who had come to the Lord before coming to TWI were lulled into believing we were still serving the Lord, though we were actually serving Wierwille's evil lusts.
And you are right, geisha, repentence is the only way to restore full sharing with the Lord.
More about miracles later, but this is all for now!
yeah, we were taught fear was Satanic and always came from the Devil/Adversary and God wouldn't even hurt a fly. Likewise with anger. Supposedly God reserved that only against Lucifer and not innocent naive human beings. Wierwille inplied we were like animals/pets and that fear and anger were negative. Yep, God was viewed as a harmless nice Alzeimhers patient, almost child like himself. Yet Wierwille, Martindale, Geer, Hendricks, etc. thought it was godly to bully people and throw temper tantrums when people reprimanded them for heresy and immoral behavior. No, they saw themselves equal to God Almighty, why they had God's blessing and permission to act the way they did and they saw no reason to repent. Arrogant SOB's.
Neither Wierwille nor Hendricks were writers. The "books" both of them produced were in most cases transcriptions of sermons. When people transcribe, they are typically loose with facts, don't document anything, aren't precise, and rarely have any real research as the basis. This is why VPW's books are so sloppy and inaccurate. The "advantage" of transcribing is that you can produce a large volume quickly, without any real writing effort, and appear to be an author when you aren't. . . .
Thanks, again, from me, too, John.
I found this statement especially noteworthy because one of my favorite authors is Watchman Nee, who was incarcerated in a communist prison camp for many years and died there. Many of the his books now published are transcripts from sermons he gave many years before (he died in1972, incarcerated at least 12 years). He never saw or reviewed and approved many of the books published under his name, yet they are still in print and still as good as gold with the touch of God's kind hand in the words (in my opinion) because they were carefully and lovingly transcribed, fully replete with the Bible references and other references Watchman Nee used, including references to other people and their writings to which he was indebted. I once asked a Chinese person who felt similarly about Watchman Nee, "what if it were a counterfeit?" He thought, smiled, and said with a twinkle in his eye, "It wouldn't be Watchman Nee."
Thanks, again, John, for exposing vp's works for the spiritual trash they are. I was also very much brain-dirtied in twi, and without your level headed view I might still be there. Thanks so much.
Answering VP and TWI takes mostly just thinking things through carefully and checking statements for accuracy and source. But that seemed hard to do when people were caught up in what was going on at TWI... and worse yet for those who were sucked into TWI's hero ("man o' God") worship.
Answering VP and TWI takes mostly just thinking things through carefully and checking statements for accuracy and source. But that seemed hard to do when people were caught up in what was going on at TWI... and worse yet for those who were sucked into TWI's hero ("man o' God") worship.
Even tougher when you're underfed, overworked, sleep deprived and isolated, as many were, in the various "training" programs.
I received a copy of Stiles' The Gift of the Holy Spirit in the mail today, and a glance at the table of contents showed me why Wierwille chose Stiles' material to work into the melange that was Power for Abundant Living.
The title of Chapter IX is "Reasons Why the Holy Spirit Could Not Be Given on Basis of Our Personal Holiness and Consecration."
Stiles was arguing, rightly in my opinion, against the Holiness Movement's doctrine of a second or even a third "work of grace." Wierwille took it to mean he could do what ever he damn-well-pleased, and if he sinned, it wouldn't effect his relation with God by way of the Holy Spirit!
The deeper you get into this stuff, the more you see how Wierwille perverted the truth in PFAL.
Your posts may not be as far off topic as you imagine, geisha!
The real poison in PFAL was the idea that we do not have to FEAR the Lord.
Our hearts are deceitful because we believe that everything that comes out of our hearts is right and clean. We can't sense if the thoughts and intents of our hearts are genuinely right or not. Our hearts can convince us that we are serving the Lord, when our hearts have actually departed from Him.
That's why Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. It's an objective standard by which we can judge what is coming out of our hearts.
It is the FEAR of the Lord that drives us to abandon the things that our hearts say are SOOOO right when the Word says they are SOOOO wrong. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. Fear of the Lord is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the Lord!
Wierwille himself evidenced no fear of the Lord, and he taught us that we need only respect God the way we would respect an elderly uncle we were no longer expected to obey. We certainly would not want to tell prospective recruits that they need to fear God. They might not sign the green card if we told them that. A lot of people feared God when they first took PFAL, but that fear was gradually extinguished with deeper involvement in TWI.
What's so bad about not fearing God?
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is in my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked.
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
That's what happened to Wierwille. That's what happened to John Lynn, and all the rest of us to one degree or another. Those of us who had come to the Lord before coming to TWI were lulled into believing we were still serving the Lord, though we were actually serving Wierwille's evil lusts.
And you are right, geisha, repentence is the only way to restore full sharing with the Lord.
More about miracles later, but this is all for now!
Love,
Steve
I can't add anything.,,,, I agree 100%... My wife coming out of The Way she says she was saved and such,,,,,, I tell her the whole fear thing being left out is central to coming to Christ. How do you really know God unless you fear Him? How do you know His love for you unless you fear Him?
I explained to her that I see no repentance in TWI. No total abandon of our sinful nature and recognizing who we really are.
I can be wrong.... When I look at scripture and the idea of Lordship of Christ and the Fear of God that brings us to our knees before a Holy God... Is just no where to be found. So I can't biblically agree that it is possible to have a true saving faith with TWI doctrine. Most denominations in Christianity have these common elements of repentance not in TWI.
So it would make since of the adultery and sexual abuse of the former leader as covered in the last Thread and in this one of copying works by his successors and not giving credit when do... If you don't have a fear of God.... What does it matter?
Your posts may not be as far off topic as you imagine, geisha!
I left TWI in 1987. My face-on-the-floor repentence moment didn't come until the early spring of 1996, and then it was because of promises I had made during the Momentus training, though the root cause of it all was right out of PFAL. And this thread is about Momentus as well as TWI.
The Lord showed me that I was under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5, I had trusted in man, I had made flesh my arm, and my heart had departed from the Lord, even though my deceitful heart had told me I was still faithfully serving the Lord the whole time. I repented before the Lord, but He let me know He wanted me to repent in front of the same people who had been in the Momentus training with me, so they would know that they could do it too.
I got up in front of a congregational meeting of the Living Word Fellowship, about 60 people including John Lynn. There were about 12 of us there who had realized the damage being inflicted on people by Momentus. People were hospitalized, marriages were breaking up right and left among the grads, and a few had even attempted suicide. We couldn't fathom how the people who were promoting Momentus, mainly John Lynn at that particular time and place, could be so oblivious to the harm they were doing.
John Lynn did not yet know that I had turned against Momentus. When I got up to talk, he was expecting me to promote the training, so I had a few minutes to publicly repent of the promises I had made in Momentus, particularly signing the hold-harmless agreement, before John was on his feet withstanding me to my face. Before the fireworks commenced, every person there heard how to get out from under the curse, by repenting, if they wanted to.
The real poison in PFAL was the idea that we do not have to FEAR the Lord.
Our hearts are deceitful because we believe that everything that comes out of our hearts is right and clean. We can't sense if the thoughts and intents of our hearts are genuinely right or not. Our hearts can convince us that we are serving the Lord, when our hearts have actually departed from Him.
That's why Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. It's an objective standard by which we can judge what is coming out of our hearts.
It is the FEAR of the Lord that drives us to abandon the things that our hearts say are SOOOO right when the Word says they are SOOOO wrong. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. Fear of the Lord is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the Lord!
Wierwille himself evidenced no fear of the Lord, and he taught us that we need only respect God the way we would respect an elderly uncle we were no longer expected to obey. We certainly would not want to tell prospective recruits that they need to fear God. They might not sign the green card if we told them that. A lot of people feared God when they first took PFAL, but that fear was gradually extinguished with deeper involvement in TWI.
What's so bad about not fearing God?
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is in my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked.
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
That's what happened to Wierwille. That's what happened to John Lynn, and all the rest of us to one degree or another. Those of us who had come to the Lord before coming to TWI were lulled into believing we were still serving the Lord, though we were actually serving Wierwille's evil lusts.
And you are right, geisha, repentence is the only way to restore full sharing with the Lord.
More about miracles later, but this is all for now!
Love,
Steve
Very nicely stated, and I would just add that not only was the fear of the Lord missing in TWI, but the denial of Jesus Christ being God was problematic for practical reasons. I am not interested in a trinity debate.....that isn't my point.......my point is that we were so busy trying to define Jesus as simply human we missed that He is the express image of God. If we see Jesus we see God....God has spoken to us through Jesus Christ. The totality of the message not only began in Him ....it is finished in Him. Defining Him as like us only....denying His deity, and relegating Him to absence ..........what were we really left with? Remember ...it is the word the word and nothing but the word, but Jesus IS the word in the flesh. Anyone else see a problem? In reality what VP was saying was it is the written word as interpreted by him....nothing but that.
Nanten00 from an outsiders perspective seems to have no problem identifying things that it has taken years from some of us to recognize. We really were blinded. Saving faith is a huge deal......I speak from personal experience when I say it was lacking. Jesus was an absent guy, the cross was not only missing, but it was held in contempt...... there was one translation we used, we didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a person but a force we had authority over. As you so eloquently point out.....there was absolutely no fear of God. Little genuine repentance because it was all grace. Sin flourished even down to the lowliest member because TWI doctrines are sinful. Lust was the norm and charity was a no no or highly suspect if it was extended beyond the gates of TWI. Arrogance, greed, and bullying were rewarded. Questioning often led to shunning....and shunning is still used as a means of control.
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WordWolf
Admitting you produced something, then improved it later, is a good thing in most of the world. If you're claiming you're superior and, in effect, your work is perfect because it comes from God Almi
Steve Lortz
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). W
johnj
The main (but unstated) poitn of PFAL was to trash all churches and teachers except VP and TWI, and to inflate VPW above all else as the only guy since the first century who taught the Wored as it had not been known since the first century" (the "audible voice" considered the founding date of TWI).
When you claim to be God-inspired, you can't admit to inaccuracy.
Unfortunately, so many people were iwllin to buy into this deceptive claim. I think it's partly our inner desire to be the only ones who really know the hidden truth, which makes u feel superior.
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johnj
There is such an irony in ex-TWI leaders like Hendricks and Schneider. They obviously model themselvees after VP, repeat almost all of VP's doctrine, have absorbed TWI's mind set, and teach most of the same things in the same ways.
Yet they avoid ever mentioning that VP is their one true Source, and avoid stating in public and print where they got all their teachings from- VP and TWI. But maybe they learned that from VP too- he never revealed his Sources either.
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Twinky
Yep, he did that. But to be fair, he did open a Bible and expound on some principles. Initially they were helpful or seemed like he knew something. He spoke confidently and with authority. His teachings were the "hook." I was willing to forgive obvious errors because he taught as no church I'd ever been to. And (unlike himself) I didn't expect him to know it all.
And his followers, twiggies, were vibrant, enthusiastic and full of energy. They wanted and expected to see God at work. They glowed with excitement at walking with God.
I'd been to plenty of churches beforehand. Dull congregations, might be nice enough people, but no outreach, no desire or enthusiasm. And sermons - might be nice enough but no substance.
If you want to know, if you want people excited about God and Godliness; if you want to understand some of the more obscure parts of the Bible...PFAL did that.
I think churches and church people have changed a lot in more recent years. Many churches now have very active community programmes and/or get involved with dispossessed members of the community. Sermons give a better sense of God, the word in action, whatever. Many in the church though are afraid to speak to neighbours, colleagues...they lack the vibrancy and excitement that Wayfers showed.
The church I go to now is very active in building its community; I'm part of several city-wide (denomination-wide) initiatives. And my church minister said: "The main reason people fall into cults [yes, he said cults] is that the church hasn't taught the Bible well enough. For that I apologise." There were many people in this congregation from lots of different backgrounds/denominations, and some had been very badly hurt by legalism, poor teaching, etc.
If God's voice is hidden - even and especially in the church - seekers will go where they think they hear His voice. The answer is clear. Teach the Bible. And let those who hear live it and not be ashamed to speak to others.
That's the part we can all play in defeating those of TWI ilk.
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Steve Lortz
I think there was an additional reason why TWI was as successful (?) as it was, and why Wierwille's followers were so enthusiastic (before the organization managed to suck all the life out of them). Wierwille had to mix some truth in with what he was teaching in order to get people to swallow the poison. He deceitfully PREACHED some truth, even though what he PRACTICED and TAUGHT contradicted the truths he preached.
The Bible says that as many as shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered. The Lord was faithful to His promise, in spite of the fact that we were in a cult, and many people DID get deliverance. What was especially shameful was that Wierwille stole the credit for the deliverance that rightfully belonged to the Lord, and claimed the credit for himself and his class.
Just my two cents' worth...
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Speaking for myself......I had to be delivered from the deliverance I received in TWI. It was a good counterfeit and I never would have known had God not been so gracious. Sure, we called on the name of the Lord......but who we called on to save us was some strange hybrid Jesus who was VP's creation. My two cents.
I was never born-again in TWI and I really think that unless one was a Christian going in, they didn't become one in TWI. Saving faith was in short supply and the Jesus I know now is not the same as I confessed in TWI. That is my experience at least.
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Naten00
I think you added the missing piece Steve...
It takes a spoon full of sugar (or more) to help the "medicine" go down... If you get my analogy.
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skyrider
You mean....a culture of sex, drugs, commune-living, sin-erased teachings, generic "righteous-living feel-good" teachings, motorcoach seductions, inner-circle grooming, bum-rushed dissenters, lies, cover-ups, and all that?
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Steve Lortz
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, skyrider.
I myself witnessed a miraculous healing when the woman who was undershepherding me prayed in the name of Jesus Christ with a teen-aged girl in the hospital. The girl never took the class; her mom never took the class, but the girl was healed in the name of Jesus Christ. The woman who was undershepherding me was not a hypocrite. She was morally upright, and just as horrified as anyone else when the truth about Wierwille began coming out in 1986-7.
There were times when I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ and got results, years before I ever heard of TWI. There were times when I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ and got results, while I was involved with TWI. There are still times when I pray in the name of Jesus Christ and get results. None of those results were or are because of the magic formula Wierwille taught as "power of attorney." Those results were because the Lord is faithful to His Word, in spite of our ignorance and foolishness.
There were many, many people at the twig level who took the things Wierwille taught about the love of God to heart, and tried to live those things, even though Wierwille himself was a shameless quack, secretly abusing those trusting people.
Not everything that Wierwille taught was wrong, but it was all tainted by his hypocrisy, just as Jesus said was the case with the Pharisees and their teachings.
TWI crushed the love of God out of peoples' hearts as they advanced through the Way Tree (this was back before Martindale began crushing the love of God out of peoples' hearts even before they began advancing).
I remember the exact moment when I finally broke down and surrendered to the flesh, manipulating a couple into signing green cards while I was on Lightbearers. When we got back to campus, I realized what a fool I had been, and that was when I started the process of dis-associating myself from TWI.
Nothing I was personally exposed to in TWI was worse than anything I had been exposed to in the Navy, except for Wierwille's hypocrisy... but then I was never one of the young women he drugged and raped in his motorcoach.
I love God. I know He loved me during the time I was involved with TWI, even in spite of my involvement. I am still as foolish now, just in other ways. But I know God still loves me.
... and I now know that Wierwille was a hypocrite.
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
Sorry Steve.....I was really just trying to elaborate on your post and state the obvious to johniam.
I agree with you on so many levels.
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Steve Lortz
Thank you, skyrider. I needed to hear that, for a number of reasons not directly related to Greasespot Cafe. Life can suck, in so many ways, but God is still good! Thanks again.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
I respect the validity of your experiences in TWI, geisha.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Steve,
I didn't mean to add to your bad day if I did. It is not personal.....I just have a different take on TWI. I agree there were some lovely people and some truth mixed in.
The way I remember it in TWI is different. More that we gave Jesus lip service at best, but it seems mostly we were about denying Him and elevating the bible. We even thought we operated the Holy Spirit. At least I did. I really don't think that God bypassed His Son to deliver any of us in TWI. Maybe there were people who truly honored the Son, but I never really met any myself. Also, my thinking is that deliverance is not being caught up in that theology and true blessing is being in a love relationship with the Son, truly connected to the vine. Anything else is secondary and I don't think God gives second best. When He truly reveals Himself that the greatest deliverance. I missed that in TWI.
I understand that you and others look back and work things out differently, but personally, I have a very difficult time finding any deliverance in anything I got out of TWI......perceived blessings just seemed to dig me in deeper. It confused me for a long time. Then again, I wasn't saved. Maybe you were. I first listened to the gospel message in TWI and never really heard it correctly. I heard the version with a Jesus who was just a man, my big bro, who wanted me to have stuff. I never came to the cross...I actually mocked the cross and had disdain for it. I never repented. I never understood faith because I had believing. I never honored the Son, He was a means to an end. I received whatever it was that was promoted in session 12 and SIT via PFAL and I believe I had to be delivered from that.
I had to repent and be delivered from all of it......it forced me to my knees.
I appreciate you have a different perspective on certain aspects of your experience, I really do. I can enjoy your contribution and consider what you have to say. It just wasn't the same for me. I didn't mean to seem argumentative. I believe you saw what you did and recognize God in it. And yes, God is faithful, forgiving and God is good!!!
ADD: Sorry...didn't see your post....too funny...both trying to validate the other.
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WordWolf
Different people had different experiences in twi.
Some people were destroyed by twi.
Some of us benefited quite a bit-while being indoctrinated.
NYC'ers in general are slow to bend their necks, so when lcm
insisted on loyalty oaths, we didn't take it seriously. Me, I
thought the other top twi'ers would help him get a clue and
return to balance. A week or so later came the letter from
lcm that he'd fired all the leaders I'd come to respect through
experience because he said they served their own stomachs
and deceived people.
As NYC residents go, ONE person I knew in my borough decided
to swear to lcm- a man I knew as a spritual lightweight, and
less impressive than I already was despite being a lot older
and having more time in twi. (Didn't know so much Bible, wasn't
an Advanced Class Grad, etc.) a handful in the city stayed with
lcm's loyalty oath, and the rest all left together.
Although I'd met a number of knuckleheads in my first few
years locally at twi, I'd met a number of quality Christians,
too. (Occasionally, they were the same people.) When I took
"the class", I was a high school student and had to scrape
up the class fee. I asked one person to borrow his Bible to
take the class. He said it was ok. When I got to the first
session, a brand-new Bible was sitting there-a gift from
another twi'er who wanted me to do well. A person I knew
was balking at any commitment in taking "the class", and
claimed (falsely) the reason was they didn't have the money.
Someone they just met, whom I barely knew, then immediately
offered to cover the class fee for them, no strings attached.
(Someone else had already given them a Bible.)
I've known twi'ers with compassion who genuinely cared about
people, and who really loved God, Jesus and the Bible
(as best we understood each.)
I've also known prideful sob's who felt it was their duty
to lord it over others- and that's at a LOCAL level!
I've said it many times and will say it again-
I'm glad I got in, and glad I got out.
God's far bigger than the little box I had him in, and
the Bible is deeper than I was taught and I've learned more
useful (and respectful) approaches to reading it.
Finally, I can associate with my fellow Christians now even
if we don't all mark off the same checklist of beliefs.
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geisha779
I don't want to take this thread too far a afield or get too doctrinal.....just give me a little latitude or skip my post. For myself, I have considered that just because something happened in TWI in the name of Jesus Christ, that doesn't make it deliverance or even a Christian thing. In Matthew 7 when Jesus said depart I never knew you and sent people to the lake.....He was speaking to those who did things in His name and called Him Lord, Lord. They say to Him.... Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Basically, He sends them to hell.
The demon Jesus cast out in Mark called Jesus the Son of the most High God.....He knew who He was and called Him accordingly. I think that is the only one or one of two accounts in the entire gospel of Mark where Jesus is actually called who He is. Jesus drew huge crowds and had many followers......but who really made an initial lasting confession? Thomas made a conditional confession and didn't believe until after he saw the resurrected Jesus.....Peter denied Him and went fishing. Think about it.....for all the followers Jesus had, at the cross there were 3 Mary's and maybe John.
Scripture is replete with warnings of the genuine and the counterfeit.....signs, miracles and wonders are not always something genuine and of God...... consider the opposition to the first century church that came from people who called themselves a part of it. I doubt the false teachers Paul called out were going around turning people into newts. Signs followed them. That is just no guarantee something is of God. Neither is tongues a guarantee of salvation, the church in Corinth illustrates this and in his epistle Paul opposes the genuine with the counterfeit. He also speaks about receiving another Jesus, gospel and spirit. Paul chastened them for easily putting up with this.
Doesn't it always comes back to a right relationship with Jesus Christ... given our experience with TWI doesn't it really matter? TWI theology boldly opposes Him.....we opposed Him with our confession.....in the bible it is called the spirit of anti-Christ. God doesn't honor that....does He? We know He honors His Son.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly......there were lovely people who did kind things in TWI......I agree we had answered prayer and saw miracles.....I really believe there were genuine Christians caught up in that mess for a time. I have no doubt of that at all. But, the miracles and answered prayer are just not enough for me to dare slap God's name on any of it. I hope that explains a little bit about why I personally react like I do to some of these conversations and certain claims. It is just the way I now look at things....I know others are different but, maybe we can at the least...... consider some of these things.
It really kind of bites to come to terms with what we got tricked into, but God is able to deliver us from it and to heal us. He forgives.
Back to topic. Please forgive the derail. I just wanted to explain myself a bit more as sometimes I think it sounds like I come out of left field and I am on the attack...not so.....sorry to be so
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Steve Lortz
Your posts may not be as far off topic as you imagine, geisha!
I left TWI in 1987. My face-on-the-floor repentence moment didn't come until the early spring of 1996, and then it was because of promises I had made during the Momentus training, though the root cause of it all was right out of PFAL. And this thread is about Momentus as well as TWI.
The Lord showed me that I was under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5, I had trusted in man, I had made flesh my arm, and my heart had departed from the Lord, even though my deceitful heart had told me I was still faithfully serving the Lord the whole time. I repented before the Lord, but He let me know He wanted me to repent in front of the same people who had been in the Momentus training with me, so they would know that they could do it too.
I got up in front of a congregational meeting of the Living Word Fellowship, about 60 people including John Lynn. There were about 12 of us there who had realized the damage being inflicted on people by Momentus. People were hospitalized, marriages were breaking up right and left among the grads, and a few had even attempted suicide. We couldn't fathom how the people who were promoting Momentus, mainly John Lynn at that particular time and place, could be so oblivious to the harm they were doing.
John Lynn did not yet know that I had turned against Momentus. When I got up to talk, he was expecting me to promote the training, so I had a few minutes to publicly repent of the promises I had made in Momentus, particularly signing the hold-harmless agreement, before John was on his feet withstanding me to my face. Before the fireworks commenced, every person there heard how to get out from under the curse, by repenting, if they wanted to.
The real poison in PFAL was the idea that we do not have to FEAR the Lord.
Our hearts are deceitful because we believe that everything that comes out of our hearts is right and clean. We can't sense if the thoughts and intents of our hearts are genuinely right or not. Our hearts can convince us that we are serving the Lord, when our hearts have actually departed from Him.
That's why Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. It's an objective standard by which we can judge what is coming out of our hearts.
It is the FEAR of the Lord that drives us to abandon the things that our hearts say are SOOOO right when the Word says they are SOOOO wrong. Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. Fear of the Lord is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the Lord!
Wierwille himself evidenced no fear of the Lord, and he taught us that we need only respect God the way we would respect an elderly uncle we were no longer expected to obey. We certainly would not want to tell prospective recruits that they need to fear God. They might not sign the green card if we told them that. A lot of people feared God when they first took PFAL, but that fear was gradually extinguished with deeper involvement in TWI.
What's so bad about not fearing God?
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is in my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked.
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
That's what happened to Wierwille. That's what happened to John Lynn, and all the rest of us to one degree or another. Those of us who had come to the Lord before coming to TWI were lulled into believing we were still serving the Lord, though we were actually serving Wierwille's evil lusts.
And you are right, geisha, repentence is the only way to restore full sharing with the Lord.
More about miracles later, but this is all for now!
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Wow, bet that was really good fun!
Well done for confronting the evil so publicly.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
yeah, we were taught fear was Satanic and always came from the Devil/Adversary and God wouldn't even hurt a fly. Likewise with anger. Supposedly God reserved that only against Lucifer and not innocent naive human beings. Wierwille inplied we were like animals/pets and that fear and anger were negative. Yep, God was viewed as a harmless nice Alzeimhers patient, almost child like himself. Yet Wierwille, Martindale, Geer, Hendricks, etc. thought it was godly to bully people and throw temper tantrums when people reprimanded them for heresy and immoral behavior. No, they saw themselves equal to God Almighty, why they had God's blessing and permission to act the way they did and they saw no reason to repent. Arrogant SOB's.
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Kit Sober
Thanks, again, from me, too, John.
I found this statement especially noteworthy because one of my favorite authors is Watchman Nee, who was incarcerated in a communist prison camp for many years and died there. Many of the his books now published are transcripts from sermons he gave many years before (he died in1972, incarcerated at least 12 years). He never saw or reviewed and approved many of the books published under his name, yet they are still in print and still as good as gold with the touch of God's kind hand in the words (in my opinion) because they were carefully and lovingly transcribed, fully replete with the Bible references and other references Watchman Nee used, including references to other people and their writings to which he was indebted. I once asked a Chinese person who felt similarly about Watchman Nee, "what if it were a counterfeit?" He thought, smiled, and said with a twinkle in his eye, "It wouldn't be Watchman Nee."
Thanks, again, John, for exposing vp's works for the spiritual trash they are. I was also very much brain-dirtied in twi, and without your level headed view I might still be there. Thanks so much.
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johnj
Thanks, Kit, and others, for your kind words.
Answering VP and TWI takes mostly just thinking things through carefully and checking statements for accuracy and source. But that seemed hard to do when people were caught up in what was going on at TWI... and worse yet for those who were sucked into TWI's hero ("man o' God") worship.
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waysider
Even tougher when you're underfed, overworked, sleep deprived and isolated, as many were, in the various "training" programs.
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Steve Lortz
HOLY SMOKE!
I received a copy of Stiles' The Gift of the Holy Spirit in the mail today, and a glance at the table of contents showed me why Wierwille chose Stiles' material to work into the melange that was Power for Abundant Living.
The title of Chapter IX is "Reasons Why the Holy Spirit Could Not Be Given on Basis of Our Personal Holiness and Consecration."
Stiles was arguing, rightly in my opinion, against the Holiness Movement's doctrine of a second or even a third "work of grace." Wierwille took it to mean he could do what ever he damn-well-pleased, and if he sinned, it wouldn't effect his relation with God by way of the Holy Spirit!
The deeper you get into this stuff, the more you see how Wierwille perverted the truth in PFAL.
Love,
Steve
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johnj
vpw (and LCM, TWI) is a good example of how self-promotion never fits well with honesty and transparency.
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Naten00
I can't add anything.,,,, I agree 100%... My wife coming out of The Way she says she was saved and such,,,,,, I tell her the whole fear thing being left out is central to coming to Christ. How do you really know God unless you fear Him? How do you know His love for you unless you fear Him?
I explained to her that I see no repentance in TWI. No total abandon of our sinful nature and recognizing who we really are.
I can be wrong.... When I look at scripture and the idea of Lordship of Christ and the Fear of God that brings us to our knees before a Holy God... Is just no where to be found. So I can't biblically agree that it is possible to have a true saving faith with TWI doctrine. Most denominations in Christianity have these common elements of repentance not in TWI.
So it would make since of the adultery and sexual abuse of the former leader as covered in the last Thread and in this one of copying works by his successors and not giving credit when do... If you don't have a fear of God.... What does it matter?
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geisha779
Very nicely stated, and I would just add that not only was the fear of the Lord missing in TWI, but the denial of Jesus Christ being God was problematic for practical reasons. I am not interested in a trinity debate.....that isn't my point.......my point is that we were so busy trying to define Jesus as simply human we missed that He is the express image of God. If we see Jesus we see God....God has spoken to us through Jesus Christ. The totality of the message not only began in Him ....it is finished in Him. Defining Him as like us only....denying His deity, and relegating Him to absence ..........what were we really left with? Remember ...it is the word the word and nothing but the word, but Jesus IS the word in the flesh. Anyone else see a problem? In reality what VP was saying was it is the written word as interpreted by him....nothing but that.
Nanten00 from an outsiders perspective seems to have no problem identifying things that it has taken years from some of us to recognize. We really were blinded. Saving faith is a huge deal......I speak from personal experience when I say it was lacking. Jesus was an absent guy, the cross was not only missing, but it was held in contempt...... there was one translation we used, we didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a person but a force we had authority over. As you so eloquently point out.....there was absolutely no fear of God. Little genuine repentance because it was all grace. Sin flourished even down to the lowliest member because TWI doctrines are sinful. Lust was the norm and charity was a no no or highly suspect if it was extended beyond the gates of TWI. Arrogance, greed, and bullying were rewarded. Questioning often led to shunning....and shunning is still used as a means of control.
What a mess.
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