Sexual Predators in TWI.....and elsewhere

[Naten00]

I think most understand what I was saying here, but to be sure (and since I could have worded it better,) VPW's granddaughter told me of his extra-marital affairs and more. Not LCM's granddaughter. Just wanted to clarify for people reading that may be new to things on GSC.

For being new what does LCM stand for?

[johniam]

Loy Craig Martindale, full name of the man who succeeded VP as president of twi. He was well received at first by those of us on the field, but within 2 years after VPs death several high ranking clergy left twi and started their own groups taking thousands of people with them. LCM did not handle this well. He just took a lot of abuse at first, then tried damage control and got people to rally around him, then became very abusive and kicked anybody who looked crosseyed at him out. His presidency began in 1982 and ended in scandal in 2000. He is now reputed to be heavily medicated for depression and no longer a clergyman. Others can fill in many more blanks.

quote:

And...just so you know....most women are actually experts on sexual predators....we don't get through this life....attractive or not....without running into our fair share.

You make it sound like all sexual predators are men.

quote: PFAL was wicked and deceitful

Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

[johniam]

"No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age."

Brain Development

Although the brain reaches its full adult weight by the age of 21, it continues to develop for several years. In fact, a study done by the National Institutes of Health found that the region of brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully form until age 25. This is the final stage of brain development......SOURCE

Soooooo....How old were you when you first became involved with The Way?

Nothing wrong with studying the brain...or anything else, but all the research they could do doesn't negate freedom of will. Abigail thinks something traumatic happened to me to make me post the way I do. Several months ago she asked me what happened. IMO, it doesn't matter what happened to my brain or anything else. I (all of us) have free will. I will make good choices and I will make bad choices. Nobody's past experiences innoculates them from making ANY decision. That's what the Leopold/Loeb analogy is in support of. I was 22 when I got in the word, but I find no relevance in that. It's just walking by the senses.

I would be embarrassed to hold up any bad experience I ever had with females as justification for any time I was ever an idiot about something. Even if I never had any bad experiences with females whatsoever, I am human, therefore I would still be capable of being an idiot. Same for everybody else.

[waysider]

"I was 22 when I got in the word, but I find no relevance in that."

Then, apparently, your opinion contradicts valid scientific studies that indicate a 22 year old's brain is not fully developed in relation to making decisions involving risky behavior.

Edited December 5, 2011 by waysider

[WordWolf]

Loy Craig Martindale, full name of the man who succeeded VP as president of twi. He was well received at first by those of us on the field, but within 2 years after VPs death several high ranking clergy left twi and started their own groups taking thousands of people with them. LCM did not handle this well. He just took a lot of abuse at first, then tried damage control and got people to rally around him, then became very abusive and kicked anybody who looked crosseyed at him out. His presidency began in 1982 and ended in scandal in 2000. He is now reputed to be heavily medicated for depression and no longer a clergyman. Others can fill in many more blanks.

(snip)

I shall try to be brief but cover all the points.

lcm ("L. Craig Martindale", as he billed himself) was a college student whose skills were

strictly average, whose claim to excellence was being on his college's football team,

and participating in "the big game" (he neglected to mention he "rode the bench" and

didn't PLAY in "the big game." He was recruited straight from college (he graduated

with a Bachelors in Psychology, according to him), was impressed by vpw, and immediately

afterwards, rushed into the relatively new "way corps" program. When he was unsure he'd

be able to pay the full 4 years of tuition, vpw told him he could stay as long as his

money held out. Shortly after he "graduated" that program, he was immediately put in

charge of the "WOW" program. According to his own account, he began by making elementary

mistakes (understandable given how he was never trained in any way for it.) Some time

after that, he was placed in charge of the Way Corps program. His entire adult life

after college was spent on-site with twi with no time out in a real apartment holding

down a real job. His "training" was sporadic, and consisted of vpw trying to make lcm

into a younger version of himself-giving him a motorcycle, telling him he would have

to "loosen up" concerning sex outside his marriage if he ever wanted to "lead God's

people" and so on.

When it came time for vpw to retire, vpw made a big deal out of an open search for

his replacement, but he had lcm planned for years as his replacement. He once said

that the reason was that lcm never questioned his orders-if he told lcm to do

something, he'd just do it. The general thinking was either that lcm had been

voted in (what I'd been told) or that the Corps "vets" would follow where he led.

However, he lacked all the skill at conning people vpw had-and genuinely thought

vpw was telling the truth. So, he was a lot more OVERT where vpw would do things

quietly and slyly.

Shortly after vpw's death, people began hearing about sexual abuse by vpw, or

endorsed by vpw and performed by his inner circle including lcm. A number of

higher-ups in twi started to try to address this, and over a few years, the

result was lcm insisting that his position as President of twi in essence granted

him "papal infallibility" and everyone had to follow him. This led to several top

twi'ers being kicked off grounds or leaving, and maintaining communication with

others in twi. Eventually, lcm demanded an oath of loyalty to him from all twi

staff, and all twi Corps "vets". One said it sounded to him like "Craig" was asking

him to follow him "BLINDLY", to which lcm replied that HE HAD BEEN DOING THAT ALL

ALONG. lcm followed this up with demanding an oath of loyalty all around. About 80%

of twi staffers and members in general left twi rather than swear an oath of loyalty

to lcm, for any of a number of reasons. This left twi at 20% of its previous

membership.

lcm seemed nicer for a short time, but then began to sound truly insane, making

weird pronouncements and announcements, and making policy decisions that kept

damaging twi over and over. Meanwhile, he continued to do what vpw insisted he

would need to do-and pressed women into having sex with him. Eventually, one

sued, and twi was unable to hush her up. So, all the people who had collaborated

with lcm and conspired with him (including Mrs LCM and the current President of

twi) all threw him under the bus, claiming they knew nothing of this, he acted

alone, etc. Eventually, he was dismissed as President and from other positions

and has dropped from sight. (Unconfirmed accounts have him living with twi'ers

and having twi provide for his financial needs despite him no longer being

OFFICIALLY connected in any way.)

A discussion of his own account of his early twi days was on the thread called

"vp and me in wonderland."

www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8019-vp-and-me-in-wonderland/

Edited December 5, 2011 by WordWolf

[Steve Lortz]

quote: PFAL was wicked and deceitful

Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

Sooooo......

When Wierwille taught us that "in this wonderful administration of the grace of God" sin is not wrong, only sin-consciouness, it was not wicked?

When Wierwille lied to us about who Romans 9-11 is addressed to, in a section of PFAL about getting "to whom addressed" correct, it was not deceitful?

All because Rosie O'Donnell called the Bible hate speech!?!

And Wierwille was not a serial sexual predator?

And he didn't devise an aberrant theology to support his aberrant lifestyle?

John, you need to give a little more thought to the words coming out of your keyboard!

Love,

Steve

[johniam]

Waysider: "Valid scientific studies" conclude that there is no God and all religion is delusional.

[geisha779]

Nothing wrong with studying the brain...or anything else, but all the research they could do doesn't negate freedom of will. Abigail thinks something traumatic happened to me to make me post the way I do. Several months ago she asked me what happened. IMO, it doesn't matter what happened to my brain or anything else. I (all of us) have free will. I will make good choices and I will make bad choices. Nobody's past experiences innoculates them from making ANY decision. That's what the Leopold/Loeb analogy is in support of. I was 22 when I got in the word, but I find no relevance in that. It's just walking by the senses.

I would be embarrassed to hold up any bad experience I ever had with females as justification for any time I was ever an idiot about something. Even if I never had any bad experiences with females whatsoever, I am human, therefore I would still be capable of being an idiot. Same for everybody else.

Now you are an expert on the brain? You are an expert on brain chemistry, and the neural pathways in our brain which are formed early on in life? Exactly as Waysider is telling you. Why do you suppose it is so difficult to overcome addiction, quit smoking or change ones eating habits? Why are certain behaviors and decision making processes so ingrained in us? Neural pathways. They are formed in relation to our thought patterns and our behavior.....they are carved into our brain!!!

Do you know where I learned that it takes at least three weeks of consistently practicing a new behavior before a habit is changed? TWI. It was taught in relation to Isaiah 26:3 and other verses. In reality it does take at least that amount of time to form new neural pathways.

Typically, how long was PFAL again? Didn't we often spread it out over three weeks?

When there is a huge information overload like we were exposed to in PFAL.....it can rewire those neural pathways and cause an abrupt personality change. The worst of the worst and difficult to overcome. What helps to overcome it is consistent and correct information.

But, in your learned opinion none of this is of any consequence......it is unlikely you will educate yourself by listening to those who actually do study the brain and brain function. Why should you....you are an expert on everything....you took PFAL. I remember that suspicion of information that didn't fit neatly into my tight little worldview....how I mocked experts and closed myself off from learning. I shudder to remember it....but I thought and spoke just like you do. Why not take a leap and read about neural pathways.... especially in relation to decision making?

I can just imagine what your understanding of free will is according to scripture......I probably once held it myself.

While in TWI it was a shallow and short sighted understanding which allowed me to make experts of no consequence. But.biblically speaking .....the concept of man's freewill is one of the most complex topics one can ponder. Not really an obvious thing.

Edited December 5, 2011 by geisha779

[chockfull]

quote:

And...just so you know....most women are actually experts on sexual predators....we don't get through this life....attractive or not....without running into our fair share.

You make it sound like all sexual predators are men.

quote: PFAL was wicked and deceitful

Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

trololololololol

[Naten00]

But, in your learned opinion none of this is of any consequence......it is unlikely you will educate yourself by listening to those who actually do study the brain and brain function. Why should you....you are an expert on everything....you took PFAL. I remember that suspicion of information that didn't fit neatly into my tight little worldview....how I mocked experts and closed myself off from learning. I shudder to remember it....but I thought and spoke just like you do. Why not take a leap and read about neural pathways.... especially in relation to decision making?

I can just imagine what your understanding of free will is according to scripture......I probably once held it myself.

While in TWI it was a shallow and short sighted understanding which allowed me to make experts of no consequence. But.biblically speaking .....the concept of man's freewill is one of the most complex topics one can ponder. Not really an obvious thing.

I do find it interesting when speaking to people in the way and them telling me how much they researched the church and I then ask them about Calvinism or Arminianism. They give me a blank stair... They ask what that is.. I tell first what it is ( basically two views on free will in the church) and then ask how can it be you have researched all the falsehood that religion teaches and you have no idea what those two complex ideas that have divided the church for centuries?

As if those on there outside sit around and blindly take orders from the pope of any church.. Ironic is that they worship the ground of a sex offender while mocking the catholic church.

o they sit in their elusive club. listening to their king.

I see the deception or blindfold over their eyes created by a man with lust for power and sex. This still grabs hold of many...

[waysider]

Waysider: "Valid scientific studies" conclude that there is no God and all religion is delusional.

Would you care to cite a few of these studies?

[WordWolf]

BTW,

for a quick sample of the kind of things lcm spewed, there's how he dealt with the

Way Corps full-time fiasco.

lcm had made a replacement for the pfal class. It was awful and grossly inferior

to the pfal class. NOBODY wanted to take it. (Few people can be convinced to buy

a bad product.) So, lcm decided to increase enrollment for pfal by making all

the Way Corps FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES for twi. Now, rather than being sources of

income for twi (full-time workers sending in 10% of their income to twi),

they became financial LIABILITIES (twi had to send THEM money to live on) in

the hopes they'd make the money back in enrollments. This failed miserably because

nobody wanted to buy a defective product. The real kicker was the 2 weeks of

required appearances at twi. See, twi had the Rock of Ages event every Summer,

and Corps Week before that where the Corps arrived, spent time together, and

set up the ROA. They did this at their own expense each year. But this year,

now twi had to pay for ALL of them to arrive, and pay them for both weeks when

they had gotten them to work for FREE BOTH WEEKS before.

(vpw had complained that the people who came to hq on their own money and spent

what might have been their only vacation time doing manual labor for twi for

free- but didn't stay ANOTHER week to do it. He wanted MORE free labor from

them and complained some had to return to work.)

Shortly thereafter, the ROA was cancelled as an event, which cancels Corps Week

as a result.

So, this was all because lcm said God said the Corps was supposed to go full-time,

which was a disaster for twi in many ways, and also led to more people quitting twi.

(All those Corps with no jobs and lots of time were told to meddle in the private

lives and homes of all the innies, and some innies finally got sick and tired of

being sick and tired, and left.)

Naturally, some people discussed what a disaster the full-time thing was.

lcm responded.

"How many hours have you wasted debating whether Rev. Martindale is right or wrong in sending the Way Corps full

time? What a waste of time. You have no right to discuss whether I'm

right or wrong. It's not your responsibility. You make up your mind

either to back us up or support us or you're wrong. Period. Wrong."

He called that tape ""The Key to Success is to Obey."

A few people still claim that lcm wasn't telling people to BLINDLY FOLLOW him.

Edited December 5, 2011 by WordWolf

[Ham]

Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

I wouldn't entirely agree. Perhaps the bible contains some hate speech, I would not agree that it IS hate speech, or all hate speech..

what do you expect? some of the hate speech targets her..

do you agree with (the bible's) conclusion (with regards to ms. mcdonald's lifestyle) ? Then you have to agree with its conclusion as regards to whore mongers, rapists, etc. etc..

along with the summary judgment rendered to false apostles, false prophets, adulterers, etc., etc..

along with summary judgment against the offenders of the weak..

how many "betrothed" women did da vicster help himself to?

soooo.. the old testament does not apply to herr vicster, because of what?

then it is supposed to apply to different kinds of "sins".. because of what?

I guess the "blood of jesus" covers one category of blatant sin, and not another..

is that what you are saying?

Edited December 5, 2011 by Ham

[waysider]

Yeah, and according to Rosie O'Donnell, the bible is hate speech.

It looks like The Westboro Baptist Church agrees with that assessment.

HERE

Geeze...What a dilemma...Who ya gonna side with on this one, Johnny... Rosie or Westboro?

Edited December 6, 2011 by waysider

[Twinky]

What a wacky site that is, waysider.

God hates a lot of things and people, according to them. Rabid hate.

Sound like any other group you know?

Wonder what the predilections are of the leadership in this group, that they have so much hate?

I wonder if this same group has spent any time in looking at who God loves, and who he wants to help?

[johniam]

Free will rejoices against scientific studies as mercy rejoices against judgement.

Yeah, thanks Waysider for posting that link. Landover Baptist realized that "unsaved" were lurking on their site and cut off their water. Should get a few grins on this site before that happens.

[waysider]

Free will rejoices against scientific studies as mercy rejoices against judgement.

What does that even mean??

(I suspect it's some catch phrase, based on a distortion of James 2:13, you picked up and are parroting back.)

Edited December 7, 2011 by waysider

[johniam]

What does that even mean??

(I suspect it's some catch phrase, based on a distortion of James 2:13, you picked up and are parroting back.)

Like you parrot everything you read on GSC?

You don't get what free will IS. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you in the name of education, science, religion, or even authority. With free will you can accept or deny ANYTHING. Just like TWI, you guys think your logic is so air tight, so perfect, so unblemished, that for anyone to dispute your "findings" is abomination. You keep claiming that TWI is/was that way, but YOU are that way. TWI taught me a healthy cynicism for "valid scientific studies".

Of course, free will doesn't guarantee good decisions, but it DOES supercede what anyone tells you. You ALWAYS have an alternate choice.

Edited December 7, 2011 by johniam

[waysider]

You said:

Free will rejoices against scientific studies.

What does that mean, in plain English?

[geisha779]

Like you parrot everything you read on GSC?

You don't get what free will IS. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you in the name of education, science, religion, or even authority. With free will you can accept or deny ANYTHING. Just like TWI, you guys think your logic is so air tight, so perfect, so unblemished, that for anyone to dispute your "findings" is abomination. You keep claiming that TWI is/was that way, but YOU are that way. TWI taught me a healthy cynicism for "valid scientific studies".

Of course, free will doesn't guarantee good decisions, but it DOES supercede what anyone tells you. You ALWAYS have an alternate choice.

You are right....you are free to believe all the lies and half truth you wish......is that what you mean? Being presented with evidence, logic, and right judgement doesn't mean you have to accept it John, but I think we call that denial and self-delusion.....not freewill. Semantics.

[waysider]

All of us think, behave, reason, make judgements and formulate decisions in relation to what we have been taught, felt and experienced. In that sense, no one really acts entirely out of free will.

[waysider]

And some who erroneously believe they are acting out of free will are merely reacting, unproportionally, to pre-programmed dogma and instilled bias.

[Steve Lortz]

Like you parrot everything you read on GSC?

You don't get what free will IS. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you in the name of education, science, religion, or even authority. With free will you can accept or deny ANYTHING. Just like TWI, you guys think your logic is so air tight, so perfect, so unblemished, that for anyone to dispute your "findings" is abomination. You keep claiming that TWI is/was that way, but YOU are that way. TWI taught me a healthy cynicism for "valid scientific studies".

Of course, free will doesn't guarantee good decisions, but it DOES supercede what anyone tells you. You ALWAYS have an alternate choice.

Are you meaning to imply that Wierwille had an alternate choice to drugging and raping young women? If so, then why should we blame the devil and not Wierwille?

Love,

Steve

[chockfull]

You don't get what free will IS. It doesn't matter what anyone tells you in the name of education, science, religion, or even authority. With free will you can accept or deny ANYTHING. Just like TWI, you guys think your logic is so air tight, so perfect, so unblemished, that for anyone to dispute your "findings" is abomination. You keep claiming that TWI is/was that way, but YOU are that way. TWI taught me a healthy cynicism for "valid scientific studies".

No, that's just being "self-willed". It's origin is stubbornness and blindness. There can be great truth coming from perspectives in education, science, religion, and yes, even authority. From authority there are great necessities in life to obey - like the laws of the land. Don't accept the laws of the land because of your "free will", then pretty soon you'll be talking about "free will" from an 8x12 cell, people will tell you when to get up, when to eat, when to exercise, etc.

I really don't give one r@t$ @$$ whether you or anyone disputes my "findings". God led me to those findings, thus for my life they are truth. I am nothing like TWI now. That is part of the deliverance God has allowed me to experience. I don't plagiarize. I don't abuse people. I don't have a lust for the power of a position in an organization that doesn't amount to a gnat on an elephant's behind in the overall scope of things. TWI does all of those things. They will lie, cheat, steal, and all the while justifying it with "so the ministry be not blamed".

Yet to you, I guess you learned to be critical of the scientific method. And how to put lipstick on a pig really well.

Of course, free will doesn't guarantee good decisions, but it DOES supercede what anyone tells you. You ALWAYS have an alternate choice.

Observing the consistent fruit in the lives of the leadership of TWI, that is blatantly obvious that free will doesn't guarantee good decisions. So yes, there is a myriad of alternate choices to following them. And the vast majority of choices are better.

[Naten00]

No, that's just being "self-willed". It's origin is stubbornness and blindness. There can be great truth coming from perspectives in education, science, religion, and yes, even authority. From authority there are great necessities in life to obey - like the laws of the land.

AMEN.... I think everyone falls at this with some degree.... In TWI... Some more than others.