[i linked this way so you can follow back to the original post.
I'm going to interrupt the quote more than the tags can handle.
But anyone can easily see it's all honest quoting.]
johniam:
"What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation"."
A) Let's not use names of non-leaders who don't consent to posting here.
B) We do not have proof vpw did what he claimed in public to have done.
It is consistent with everything else he said and did, so we all agree he PROBABLY did.
If his victim steps forward and confirms it, that's something else. Survivors coming
forth and giving direct testimony carries more weight than
"I don't think it happened".
If he didn't do it, he obviously fantasized in detail about doing it- which is sick and
unhealthy, then talked about it- which is demeaning to his MINOR CHILD and also affects
his audience.
If he did do it, it constituted "sexual molestation" as defined in every state in the
Union, including Ohio where he did it. If you intend to put your hands on the "private
parts" of someone who is not consenting, that is "sexual molestation." If you put your
hands on the "private parts" of a minor, they are legally (and morally) unable to give
consent, so that is "sexual molestation" even if the minor lacks a full understanding
as to what's going on. And doing that to your own child is even sicker than doing it
to a total stranger-which is already sick and perverted.
The only obvious exceptions to this would be a medical examination in a doctor's office
by a licensed MEDICAL doctor under extremely specific conditions. (A doctor can also
go to jail if he's a pervert trying to get sick thrills off his patients.)
Or, a paramedic dealing with trying to keep a critically-injured person from dying,
which, again, is an extremely specific action. vpw was hardly doing anything approaching
either scenario.]
johniam:
"It wasn't his intent,"
[A man intends to put his hands on a minor's 'private parts.' He does so. You find out
and ask him why, and he claims he meant no harm-he was trying to educate the minor.
You believe him and he goes on his way. The police arrive a minute later, and ask him
why. He makes the same claim. The police then cart him away because sexual molestation
was just performed by him, which is a felony. Then he goes to jail, where even the other
inmates look down on those who sexually molest minors.
If the man actually told the truth to you, he meant to educate, and sexually molested a
minor to perform that education. If he grew up in the US, he HAD to know it was a felony,
no matter WHY he wanted to do it. He chose to sexually molest a child regardless.
If the man lied to you, he did so knowing full well he was sexually molesting a minor,
and lied to the minor and yourself to cover his tracks. So, he committed a felony, knew
he committed a felony, and thought you were stupid enough to buy a pack of lies as to it
not being a felony and why.]
johniam:
nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings.
[For someone claiming to understand what happened or didn't happen,
you're displaying an impressive amount of ignorance and misinformation.
Sexual molestation happens. The victim usually was completely innocent-
especially when the victim is a MINOR. Most of the victims of sexual
molestation get on with their lives eventually. That does not erase
what happened nor make it any less a molestation. Christopher Reeve
went on with his life after getting paralyzed from a tragic fall from
a horse. That he got on with his life neither negated what happened,
nor restored him from paralysis. He survived and did his best to get
on with his life despite what happened, IN SPITE OF the damage he
suffered.]
johniam:
How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
[A man puts his hands on a minor's "private parts" on purpose. He claims it's not
sexual molestation when he sexually molests them because he meant to educate them.
Another man says "that's right, and it's foolish to think it was really sexual
molestation." A third man says "WHY you molested a minor doesn't erase the fact
that you molested a minor" and calls for the police.
One of those men spoke "foolishly."
Was it the man who said the sexual molester was actually a molester no matter what
his excuse was,
or was it the man who said that sexual molestation is negated if you have a good enough
reason and a pure enough motive to put your hands on a minor's private parts?
How foolish to erase blame and claim there was no damage where damage exists.]
johniam:
I believe most of those women consented.
[Even IF that was the case, that doesn't even address sexually molesting a minor,
nor does it change what he did to the women who clearly didn't consent-
like the ones he drugged unconscious. There's no question as to whether or not THEY
consented. Unless one is a 24-carat ignoramus.
Then again, since those clearly indicate vpw knew what he was doing and victimized
women for his sexual gratification, we'll have to skip over those and address
whatever might allow for "wiggle room" and claim vpw was not to blame
when he molested women and raped them and so on.]
johniam:
At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God.
[That's certainly what vpw pushed quietly, behind the scenes. He passed it along in
little whispers and private meetings, so it wouldn't get out to the public- or to the
average twi person. Few would have entered twi with the idea that it was a privilege
or an "honor" to have sex with a married man and that they should want to have sex
with him because he was "the man of God."
All or nearly all the people who said or thought that was TAUGHT that IN TWI.
That's not taught in mainstream US society. In fact, the only places you hear any
talk like that is in CULTS- David Koresh claimed the same privileges, and said he
was allowed to have sex with any woman in his Branch Davidians.
A tiny minority in twi was watched for, and selected. Those people were told lots
of things to get them to believe that men of God should be allowed to commit acts
of adultery and fornication, and that the Bible which said it was wrong actually
said it was all right. Some of those people rejected that from the beginning
and didn't get the full indoctrination. A relative few didn't realize what was
going on, and accepted lies and deception about what God wanted, one idea at a time,
and then eventually found themselves espousing doctrine the opposite of what the
Bible said. vpw taught that doctrine. Was he blameless? Well, was the serpent
blameless in Genesis 3 when he got Eve from God's clear instruction to its
opposite, and got her to believe a lie? (God said fornication and adultery are
wrong, God said they would surely die. vpw said fornication and adultery are
acceptable "if you can handle it", the serpent said they would NOT surely die.
God said one thing, the serpent- and vpw- said the opposite.
Really, this is not hard to understand if one is actually TRYING to understand.
Some Kindergarteners could follow this.]
johniam:
There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that.
[it's a fallacy to think that all the women he molested or raped would immediately have
responded in the SAME way.
vpw covered his tracks BRILLIANTLY.
First, he selected the "best" victims. He found women he thought would not be assertive,
who were trusting and naive, and not cynical. (They would trust him more and think
"he's trying to rape me" slower than the average woman would.)
He especially targeted, among those, women who had previously been victimized by other
sexual molesters and rapists. As is commonly known (and should be obvious by now), survivors
who grew up with such a history are easier to victimize later because they suffered
molestation when they were trying to understand what "normal" is.
Second, he set up places to be alone where he could operate uninterrupted. He had LOTS of
private little places- he had an office in different buildings, a home, and a SEPARATE
OFFICE apart from the buildings. So, he arranged for places he could claim just HAPPENED
to be efficient for molesting someone in private.
Third, he "primed the pump" by releasing lots of doctrine and ideas on campus about how
all that was acceptable, so that people were all desensitized, and he had phrases he could
now repeat as "buzzwords" when he decided the time was right to molest and rape the women.
Fourth, he prepared a detailed script to play upon a number of emotions-
pity (my wife can't satisfy me), pride (it's a privilege to service a man of God when he
has 'needs'), and so on.
Fifth, he assembled a cadre of people around him, to facilitate this. There were people who
looked for sex victims for vpw, people who arranged for them to be alone with vpw,
and people to "exit counsel" his victims. If the victim seemed CONFUSED and in shock,
the "exit counselors" would bury them in jargon and buzzwords until they were too confused
to speak up. If the victim seemed to understand what happened, understood a line was crossed,
and was likely to tell someone rather than stay silent,
those are the women vpw IMMEDIATELY kicked out of wherever they were, and sent home on a
slow Greyhound bus. As soon as they were on the bus, vpw's cadre was busy making phone calls
to deatroy the woman's reputation at home, so no one would believe her and vpw's dirty little
secret was safe. At least one woman committed suicide because her life was so completely
destroyed-
She wanted to serve God, and was raped by the man she trusted the most. Confused and emotionally
crushed, she was then kicked out of the one group where she invested all her hopes, the only place
to serve God and the only purpose in her life. Getting home, she would face all her friends turning
against her. With nothing left to turn to, with no one to lean on or lend an ear, and nothing
left to live for (AS SHE SAW IT AND AS WAS PLANNED), she just gave up and committed suicide.
vpw didn't necessarily PREFER that, but he was fine with that as a result, because a dead woman
can't press charges.]
johniam:
I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't.
[You don't understand people at all.
Even when signing contracts, under US law, any contract is voided
if either party was under DURESS at the time they signed it.
There are lots of things that make "consent" MEANINGLESS.
"Sign this or I carry out my blackmail." "It's all legal-they signed this, see?"
There's other things, but that one is pretty clear-cut as just one example.]
johniam:
Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard.
[That has nothing to do with the women vpw set out to molest and rape.
(Certainly, it's unrelated to the women he drugged and raped.)
Sounds like, if he got away with it at the time, it was fine and he shouldn't
be blamed for it. Yet if someone murdered your family and got away with it,
you'd blame them despite them getting away with it. Nice double standard.]
johniam:
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent.
[You're taking the rationalizations of a man who was TRAINED to rationalize
sexual molestation and rape of women by men as ACCEPTABLE and NECESSARY.
(vpw told him he would NEED TO "lighten up" in the area of monogamy and faithfulness
in marriage.)
It's the woman's fault for being attractive- she should have known not to be anywhere
around vpw or lcm without wearing a full-body burka?
Sure, there's women out there who decide they're going to dress trampy and try to
get men (and women) to stare, but there's also men who do the same, and that hardly
means that most normal people want to do that. You're married- ask your wife.
Did she run around in trampy outfits, glorying in how guys made disgusting noises
as she passed by? Is that what she was dressed like when you met her?
Or was she a normal woman wearing normal clothing and doing normal things?]
johniam:
But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
[it hurts ANY person whenever ANY person takes advantage of them-
whether sexually, financially, socially, or any other way.]
johniam:
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
[You need to reread it again. You've been arguing against some of his points.
Congratulations on getting more out of twi and suffering less for being in it.
As I've said many times, I'm glad I got in, and glad I got out.
I received benefits- but the cost of those benefits was paid for by many of
my fellow Christians, for whom Christ died.
Please note that "I received benefits" can still be true even if
"the person I got the benefits from was a greedy, lying pervert"
is also true. One doesn't negate the other.
(Of course, a SEPARATE discussion would be whether or not the
PERCEIVED benefits were ACTUAL benefits, but any ACTUAL benefits
I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
(snip)
Many people benefited much more than they suffered during their experience with TWI. I know I did. But Wierwille WASN'T responsible for that.
The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class.
Wierwille STOLE the credit... from GOD... from start to finish! Wierwille was MORE of a monster than any of us CAN make him out to be! He twisted God's Word so that he himself could drug and rape God's daughters. He violated God's Word in order to rationalize, rationalize, rationalize away his culpability for the evil he perpetrated.
When Wierwille presents himself at the judgment seat, he's gonna have more than a little "'splainin'" to do. And rationalization won't do him one whit of good then.
If his rationalizations make the evil he did "good enough for me," then I deserve his same reward.
What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation".
*INCESTI think that is called INCEST, fondling your own child is incestuous for gosh sakes!.
Most of those women were Ok with him doing that.
*And you know that to be true first-hand and beyond any doubt??
I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways:
*You are right; it wasn't consent, it was COERSHION using God as the authority by which he spoke.
I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
*Just because YOU didn't suffering anything does NOT mean that people didn't suffer greatly. Your head is so far down in the sand, that you suffered far greater than you realize! You are completely blind and don't know that VP caused that.
The total TWI degradation was much more than any one of us individually experienced, and that's saying something, given the experiences some people have gone on record relating here.
I am ashamed I ever had anything to do the old goat or his cult of ignorance.
(This vigorous discussion is really healthy, in that it shows people have managed to put back boundaries to a more appropriate place. Well done!)
Yeah.....the Greasespot discussion forums will do that for you. Thanks Paw.
And, speaking of boundaries....what else was moved?
1) Plagairism.....wierwille is lauded for "putting it all together"
2) Acceptance of "The Word".....ie private interpretation
3) Elitism in "knowing this word"
4) Bullying and verbal arguments
5) Etc. etc
The sex boundaries in wierwille's world are vivid red-flags that were flying overhead in twi, but the subleties of attitude and arrogance and manipulation and coercion were in play as well. Year after year, the corps bullying grew worse and worse.
What you look at, you become.......and we were looking at WIERWILLE.
Having johniam here in these discussions serves as a guidepost of HOW FAR BOUNDARIES WERE MOVED IN TWI.....thanks john. And, to see that posters challenge him on every front illustrates that we no longer are seduced by the cult.
quote: The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class.
Same old, same old double standard: praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil.
Chockfull: Just for the record, VP was dead by the time John Schoenheit's adultery paper came out. Someone else sacked him.
quote:
Having johniam here in these discussions serves as a guidepost of HOW FAR BOUNDARIES WERE MOVED IN TWI.....thanks john.
Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill.
But somehow, without any degree in psychotherapy, you "know" that I'm "deeply ill".
You guys are just like seasoned wayfers from back in the day. Anything anybody says you process according to the unofficial GSC "foundational class". Just like wows. You haven't said "en garde" yet, but the implication is the same.
Twinky: One post you say I'm off topic, then I'm causing healthy discussion. Two mints in one?
So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman?
I don't have to be an attractive woman, or even a woman to comment on this. You guys are all experts on sexual predators, right?
Speaking of comical, Roseanne Barr once made a joke about men. She set it up really well acting like she was going to say something praising men on some level. Then she says that men are really useful when it comes to reading maps, because only the male mind could conceive of one inch equalling 100 miles. Not true. The female mind is just as human as the male mind. The female equivalent is...that only the female mind could conceive of one minute of emotional outburst equalling 1,000 years of positive social change. Gotta be SOME reason why they keep doing it.
Not all women are given to emotional outbursts and not all men are pigs.
quote: The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class.
Same old, same old double standard: praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil.
(snip)
EXACTLY! In TWI we were expected to praise Wierwille and his damned class, NOT God or Jesus Christ! Thankfulness means "giving the credit where the credit is due."
We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. In The Way International, the excellency of the power was of Wierwille's damned PFAL.
Where does the slippery slope begin?
When they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful [they didn't give the credit to God]; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible Wierwille and his class [we gave the credit to PFAL]. Wherefore God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served Wierwille more than the Creator who is blessed forever.
Praise God and not Wiewille?... or praise Wierwille and not God!?!
I'll praise God and not Wierwille any day of the week, John... ANY day of the week!
So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman?
I don't have to be an attractive woman, or even a woman to comment on this. You guys are all experts on sexual predators, right?
Speaking of comical, Roseanne Barr once made a joke about men. She set it up really well acting like she was going to say something praising men on some level. Then she says that men are really useful when it comes to reading maps, because only the male mind could conceive of one inch equalling 100 miles. Not true. The female mind is just as human as the male mind. The female equivalent is...that only the female mind could conceive of one minute of emotional outburst equalling 1,000 years of positive social change. Gotta be SOME reason why they keep doing it.
Not all women are given to emotional outbursts and not all men are pigs.
So, you have had so much exposure to inner workings of female behavior that you are confident enough to generalize about all attractive women and their motivations .....throughout history no less. Oh that's right...you don't have to be an expert to make your comments. It might actually help to know an attractive woman to comment though.
According to your logic .... they are all so busy trying to get men to stop and look at them while testing their power....that is an impossibility. You must be surrounded by very shallow women or you have prejudged them and never bothered to get to really know them. Ironically, sadly and pathetically, you quoted LCM to bolster your claims....the very same LCM who has been sued for sexual harassment. Now there is an expert on sexual predators.
On the other hand....the posters here have had YEARS of exposure to VP....his personal belief system......his views on women......his misogynistic ranting......and his perversions which consistently spilled over into his handling of scripture. Some posters have had first hand experience with VP's predatory behavior and the rest have heard the testimonials from men and women abused by him. Most of us sent years immersed in the cult VP founded.....spent our vacations at his family farm and supported him with our hard earned cash. Most of us sat in a class where he TAUGHT his views on sex. That may not make us experts on sexual predators.....but it does make us experts on one particular predator. Not only was he a sexual predator, but he was a predator in many things......he even preyed on you. You got some of the worst of it.
And...just so you know....most women are actually experts on sexual predators....we don't get through this life....attractive or not....without running into our fair share. You are right though...not all men are pigs. But then again, one who used God, HOLY scripture, his perceived authority, and a handy dandy motor coach to sexually abuse vulnerable and unprotected young women under his supposed pastoral care, he makes it to the top of the list in the world of pigs. That is on any planet.
and the rest have heard the testimonials from men and women abused by him.
Not only have I heard first hand accounts of much of the sexual abuse that went on within the in-residence training program by LCM, but his own grand daughter told me about his affairs on the motor coach and elsewhere. And that is the tip of the iceberg. VPW was not a good person with exaggerated stories about how bad he was. He was a monster who did all he could to suppress true stories about how bad he was. But according to johniam we are all just making it up.
Okay, here is something that is perhaps a precursor to the sexual predation...or perhaps it's a one step removed variant.
When I applied to go in the Corps, I was required to undergo a medical including a physical medical exam. Have a smear (pap) test. Provide details of the latest smear result.
I can only think - now - that it was LCM and perhaps his facilitators making sure that he didn't catch anything from some poor young woman victim. Can't have the MoG catching some sexually transmitted disease now, can we?
And while we're about it - let's just test young women's boundaries to interference with their private parts.
(I thought this was pretty bizarre but it was a requirement, and I thought maybe it was a requirement to enter US colleges (ha ha, it's not any such US college :( nor so far as I know is it a requirement at legit colleges) and my doc thought it bizarre also. I don't under-estimate that it's a good idea to have health checks - can be debilitating, and expensive to fix - especially if perhaps one is not a US resident/citizen and without knowledge of US medical arrangements. I might add, the doc didn't do any such test, didn't want to, just accepted my word that the latest routine test was a clear result.)
quote: The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it.
No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age. This statement made me think about Leopold and Loeb. From what I've heard and read, they were raised privileged. One day one of them woke up and went duh, let's kill a 15 year old boy, I've always wanted to do that, y'know. Whatever it was, there was no traumatic event in either of their lives that preceded what they did that I ever heard. Do you know anything about this? I also heard that one of them was killed in prison early on, but the other genuinely repented of his deed and was able to help underprivileged people later. Good thing Clarence Darrow was their attorney.
I just think women get away with stuff in today's world. Payback, perhaps. Men used to get away with stuff a few generations ago. Example: Andrea Yates. Imagine Caryl Chessman arguing he had post male menopause depression. My thoughts are not utterly consumed by this topic. Too full of a plate.
"No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age."
Brain Development
Although the brain reaches its full adult weight by the age of 21, it continues to develop for several years. In fact, a study done by the National Institutes of Health found that the region of brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully form until age 25. This is the final stage of brain development......SOURCE
Soooooo....How old were you when you first became involved with The Way?
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women?
I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was only right, proper and innocent for a man of his great stature to have his "needs" met in this way.
Why do I think this?
Why does Jeremiah say the heart is deceitful above all things? Because the values of the heart are programmable. If you program your heart to feel it's okay to drug and rape young women, through habitual fantasizing about drugging and raping young women, then your heart is going to tell you that it's okay to drug and rape young women. That's what "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" means. Your treasure is what you attach value to in your habitual thoughts. The values you attach to things in your habitual thoughts are going to be the values that you heart reflects back to you.
The Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The Word of God tells us that drugging and raping young women is an evil intent. The emotion that prompts a person to do the Word of the Lord instead of the deceitful intents of his own heart is called "the fear of the Lord" or "the fear of God." Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear.
With those things in mind, let's look at Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV):
"An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
"For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
Wierwille taught us that we shouldn't regard "fear of God" as fear, but rather as the respect we might pay an aging uncle who is too old for us to have to obey any longer. After all, we don't really have to obey God in "this wonderful administration of the grace of God", do we?
When Wierwille fantasized about drugging and raping young women, he didn't accept the criticism of God's Word. He didn't consider drugging and raping young women to be an evil intent, and he came to trust the values that he had programmed into his own heart.
Wierwille flattered Wierwille in his own eyes, too much to detect or hate his own sin... too much to DETECT his own sin!?!
His words were wicked and deceitful... PFAL was wicked and deceitful... because Wierwille had programmed his heart to be wicked and deceitful, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Wierwille ceased to be wise, and ceased to do good, long before he ever filmed PFAL.
Even in his motorcoach he plotted evil. Wierwille committed himself to a sinful course and did not reject what was wrong.
VPW was not a good person with exaggerated stories about how bad he was. He was a monster who did all he could to suppress true stories about how bad he was. But according to johniam we are all just making it up.
We had to suspend a great deal of reality to believe in VP the first time around....... I remember turning a deaf ear and blind eyes to the MANY warnings about VP......but, with enough good information and solid evidence most of us eventually snapped back. I guess some people just like that suspended reality. Where else can you get God's explicit approval for intense misogynistic thoughts and attitudes.....things our society doesn't even condone?
We had to suspend a great deal of reality to believe in VP the first time around....... I remember turning a deaf ear and blind eyes to the MANY warnings about VP......but, with enough good information and solid evidence most of us eventually snapped back. I guess some people just like that suspended reality. Where else can you get God's explicit approval for intense misogynistic thoughts and attitudes.....things our society doesn't even condone?
Along withe the MANY warnings about vp.....for years, I kept thinking "Where are the signs, miracles and wonders? Why haven't I seen wierwille in the middle of God's miracles? Why doesn't wierwille initiate a healing service at the Rock of Ages anymore? Why is twi's headquarters so religiously dead?"
In hindsight......I believe that wierwille was waxing more seductive and evil. Although many wonderful God-revering folks were in twi and searching for truth....twi's roots were growing idolatrous and wicked imaginations.
Interesting, isn't it?.....as Rev. Billy Graham, age 93, basks in the sunlight of his golden years and respect from his colleagues/ministers worldwide, wierwille has been in the grave for 26 years and now the evil is coming to the light. What a contrast!
by LCM, but his own grand daughter told me about his affairs on the motor coach and elsewhere.
I think most understand what I was saying here, but to be sure (and since I could have worded it better,) VPW's granddaughter told me of his extra-marital affairs and more. Not LCM's granddaughter. Just wanted to clarify for people reading that may be new to things on GSC.
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WordWolf
vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed o
Steve Lortz
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women? I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was on
chockfull
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait. Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their
WordWolf
[i linked this way so you can follow back to the original post.
I'm going to interrupt the quote more than the tags can handle.
But anyone can easily see it's all honest quoting.]
johniam:
"What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation"."
A) Let's not use names of non-leaders who don't consent to posting here.
B) We do not have proof vpw did what he claimed in public to have done.
It is consistent with everything else he said and did, so we all agree he PROBABLY did.
If his victim steps forward and confirms it, that's something else. Survivors coming
forth and giving direct testimony carries more weight than
"I don't think it happened".
If he didn't do it, he obviously fantasized in detail about doing it- which is sick and
unhealthy, then talked about it- which is demeaning to his MINOR CHILD and also affects
his audience.
If he did do it, it constituted "sexual molestation" as defined in every state in the
Union, including Ohio where he did it. If you intend to put your hands on the "private
parts" of someone who is not consenting, that is "sexual molestation." If you put your
hands on the "private parts" of a minor, they are legally (and morally) unable to give
consent, so that is "sexual molestation" even if the minor lacks a full understanding
as to what's going on. And doing that to your own child is even sicker than doing it
to a total stranger-which is already sick and perverted.
The only obvious exceptions to this would be a medical examination in a doctor's office
by a licensed MEDICAL doctor under extremely specific conditions. (A doctor can also
go to jail if he's a pervert trying to get sick thrills off his patients.)
Or, a paramedic dealing with trying to keep a critically-injured person from dying,
which, again, is an extremely specific action. vpw was hardly doing anything approaching
either scenario.]
johniam:
"It wasn't his intent,"
[A man intends to put his hands on a minor's 'private parts.' He does so. You find out
and ask him why, and he claims he meant no harm-he was trying to educate the minor.
You believe him and he goes on his way. The police arrive a minute later, and ask him
why. He makes the same claim. The police then cart him away because sexual molestation
was just performed by him, which is a felony. Then he goes to jail, where even the other
inmates look down on those who sexually molest minors.
If the man actually told the truth to you, he meant to educate, and sexually molested a
minor to perform that education. If he grew up in the US, he HAD to know it was a felony,
no matter WHY he wanted to do it. He chose to sexually molest a child regardless.
If the man lied to you, he did so knowing full well he was sexually molesting a minor,
and lied to the minor and yourself to cover his tracks. So, he committed a felony, knew
he committed a felony, and thought you were stupid enough to buy a pack of lies as to it
not being a felony and why.]
johniam:
nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings.
[For someone claiming to understand what happened or didn't happen,
you're displaying an impressive amount of ignorance and misinformation.
Sexual molestation happens. The victim usually was completely innocent-
especially when the victim is a MINOR. Most of the victims of sexual
molestation get on with their lives eventually. That does not erase
what happened nor make it any less a molestation. Christopher Reeve
went on with his life after getting paralyzed from a tragic fall from
a horse. That he got on with his life neither negated what happened,
nor restored him from paralysis. He survived and did his best to get
on with his life despite what happened, IN SPITE OF the damage he
suffered.]
johniam:
How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
[A man puts his hands on a minor's "private parts" on purpose. He claims it's not
sexual molestation when he sexually molests them because he meant to educate them.
Another man says "that's right, and it's foolish to think it was really sexual
molestation." A third man says "WHY you molested a minor doesn't erase the fact
that you molested a minor" and calls for the police.
One of those men spoke "foolishly."
Was it the man who said the sexual molester was actually a molester no matter what
his excuse was,
or was it the man who said that sexual molestation is negated if you have a good enough
reason and a pure enough motive to put your hands on a minor's private parts?
How foolish to erase blame and claim there was no damage where damage exists.]
johniam:
I believe most of those women consented.
[Even IF that was the case, that doesn't even address sexually molesting a minor,
nor does it change what he did to the women who clearly didn't consent-
like the ones he drugged unconscious. There's no question as to whether or not THEY
consented. Unless one is a 24-carat ignoramus.
Then again, since those clearly indicate vpw knew what he was doing and victimized
women for his sexual gratification, we'll have to skip over those and address
whatever might allow for "wiggle room" and claim vpw was not to blame
when he molested women and raped them and so on.]
johniam:
At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God.
[That's certainly what vpw pushed quietly, behind the scenes. He passed it along in
little whispers and private meetings, so it wouldn't get out to the public- or to the
average twi person. Few would have entered twi with the idea that it was a privilege
or an "honor" to have sex with a married man and that they should want to have sex
with him because he was "the man of God."
All or nearly all the people who said or thought that was TAUGHT that IN TWI.
That's not taught in mainstream US society. In fact, the only places you hear any
talk like that is in CULTS- David Koresh claimed the same privileges, and said he
was allowed to have sex with any woman in his Branch Davidians.
A tiny minority in twi was watched for, and selected. Those people were told lots
of things to get them to believe that men of God should be allowed to commit acts
of adultery and fornication, and that the Bible which said it was wrong actually
said it was all right. Some of those people rejected that from the beginning
and didn't get the full indoctrination. A relative few didn't realize what was
going on, and accepted lies and deception about what God wanted, one idea at a time,
and then eventually found themselves espousing doctrine the opposite of what the
Bible said. vpw taught that doctrine. Was he blameless? Well, was the serpent
blameless in Genesis 3 when he got Eve from God's clear instruction to its
opposite, and got her to believe a lie? (God said fornication and adultery are
wrong, God said they would surely die. vpw said fornication and adultery are
acceptable "if you can handle it", the serpent said they would NOT surely die.
God said one thing, the serpent- and vpw- said the opposite.
Really, this is not hard to understand if one is actually TRYING to understand.
Some Kindergarteners could follow this.]
johniam:
There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that.
[it's a fallacy to think that all the women he molested or raped would immediately have
responded in the SAME way.
vpw covered his tracks BRILLIANTLY.
First, he selected the "best" victims. He found women he thought would not be assertive,
who were trusting and naive, and not cynical. (They would trust him more and think
"he's trying to rape me" slower than the average woman would.)
He especially targeted, among those, women who had previously been victimized by other
sexual molesters and rapists. As is commonly known (and should be obvious by now), survivors
who grew up with such a history are easier to victimize later because they suffered
molestation when they were trying to understand what "normal" is.
Second, he set up places to be alone where he could operate uninterrupted. He had LOTS of
private little places- he had an office in different buildings, a home, and a SEPARATE
OFFICE apart from the buildings. So, he arranged for places he could claim just HAPPENED
to be efficient for molesting someone in private.
Third, he "primed the pump" by releasing lots of doctrine and ideas on campus about how
all that was acceptable, so that people were all desensitized, and he had phrases he could
now repeat as "buzzwords" when he decided the time was right to molest and rape the women.
Fourth, he prepared a detailed script to play upon a number of emotions-
pity (my wife can't satisfy me), pride (it's a privilege to service a man of God when he
has 'needs'), and so on.
Fifth, he assembled a cadre of people around him, to facilitate this. There were people who
looked for sex victims for vpw, people who arranged for them to be alone with vpw,
and people to "exit counsel" his victims. If the victim seemed CONFUSED and in shock,
the "exit counselors" would bury them in jargon and buzzwords until they were too confused
to speak up. If the victim seemed to understand what happened, understood a line was crossed,
and was likely to tell someone rather than stay silent,
those are the women vpw IMMEDIATELY kicked out of wherever they were, and sent home on a
slow Greyhound bus. As soon as they were on the bus, vpw's cadre was busy making phone calls
to deatroy the woman's reputation at home, so no one would believe her and vpw's dirty little
secret was safe. At least one woman committed suicide because her life was so completely
destroyed-
She wanted to serve God, and was raped by the man she trusted the most. Confused and emotionally
crushed, she was then kicked out of the one group where she invested all her hopes, the only place
to serve God and the only purpose in her life. Getting home, she would face all her friends turning
against her. With nothing left to turn to, with no one to lean on or lend an ear, and nothing
left to live for (AS SHE SAW IT AND AS WAS PLANNED), she just gave up and committed suicide.
vpw didn't necessarily PREFER that, but he was fine with that as a result, because a dead woman
can't press charges.]
johniam:
I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't.
[You don't understand people at all.
Even when signing contracts, under US law, any contract is voided
if either party was under DURESS at the time they signed it.
There are lots of things that make "consent" MEANINGLESS.
"Sign this or I carry out my blackmail." "It's all legal-they signed this, see?"
There's other things, but that one is pretty clear-cut as just one example.]
johniam:
Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard.
[That has nothing to do with the women vpw set out to molest and rape.
(Certainly, it's unrelated to the women he drugged and raped.)
Sounds like, if he got away with it at the time, it was fine and he shouldn't
be blamed for it. Yet if someone murdered your family and got away with it,
you'd blame them despite them getting away with it. Nice double standard.]
johniam:
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent.
[You're taking the rationalizations of a man who was TRAINED to rationalize
sexual molestation and rape of women by men as ACCEPTABLE and NECESSARY.
(vpw told him he would NEED TO "lighten up" in the area of monogamy and faithfulness
in marriage.)
It's the woman's fault for being attractive- she should have known not to be anywhere
around vpw or lcm without wearing a full-body burka?
Sure, there's women out there who decide they're going to dress trampy and try to
get men (and women) to stare, but there's also men who do the same, and that hardly
means that most normal people want to do that. You're married- ask your wife.
Did she run around in trampy outfits, glorying in how guys made disgusting noises
as she passed by? Is that what she was dressed like when you met her?
Or was she a normal woman wearing normal clothing and doing normal things?]
johniam:
But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
[it hurts ANY person whenever ANY person takes advantage of them-
whether sexually, financially, socially, or any other way.]
johniam:
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
[You need to reread it again. You've been arguing against some of his points.
Congratulations on getting more out of twi and suffering less for being in it.
As I've said many times, I'm glad I got in, and glad I got out.
I received benefits- but the cost of those benefits was paid for by many of
my fellow Christians, for whom Christ died.
Please note that "I received benefits" can still be true even if
"the person I got the benefits from was a greedy, lying pervert"
is also true. One doesn't negate the other.
(Of course, a SEPARATE discussion would be whether or not the
PERCEIVED benefits were ACTUAL benefits, but any ACTUAL benefits
would still be true.]
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Steve Lortz
Many people benefited much more than they suffered during their experience with TWI. I know I did. But Wierwille WASN'T responsible for that.
The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class.
Wierwille STOLE the credit... from GOD... from start to finish! Wierwille was MORE of a monster than any of us CAN make him out to be! He twisted God's Word so that he himself could drug and rape God's daughters. He violated God's Word in order to rationalize, rationalize, rationalize away his culpability for the evil he perpetrated.
When Wierwille presents himself at the judgment seat, he's gonna have more than a little "'splainin'" to do. And rationalization won't do him one whit of good then.
If his rationalizations make the evil he did "good enough for me," then I deserve his same reward.
Love,
Steve
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Rejoice
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Ham
You're probably right. He was probably far worse..
I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here..
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waysider
You may be right, Ham.
We know for a fact that VP had "enforcers".
("A thug who uses physical force or the threat of physical force to coerce others".....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcer)
Who knows what happened to people that weren't compliant?
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WordWolf
Tough to say.
However, vpw had dogs on ground that were trained to attack
(RD was threatened with them),
and some of the enforcers were armed (with guns.)
People WERE threatened with dogs and bullets on different occasions,
but I don't know for a fact of any that were SHOT or directly
attacked by dogs.
I do, however, know of at least one person who was directly
threatened with violence for asking ABOUT discussing things
with someone, when on grounds. That was me, at my last ROA.
In case it's not obvious to the usual people, I failed to
respond in the expected fashions. First, the other person
tried to use body language to intimidate me, looming over
me. I recognized the attempt at the time, and that it was
meant to steer the conversation off-topic. So, I kept it
on-topic and iced down all my own reactions, getting less
and LESS emotional as the other person attempted harder
and harder to intimidate me, and got more and more
frustrated it wasn't working. So then he tried with a
verbal, direct threat of violence. I iced my reactions
down even further, and kept talking as if our conversation
was utterly normal. I was getting some really good information
at the time- more about what was causing that reaction
than the information itself. (Subtext and context was
speaking VOLUMES.) I was also enjoying the discomfiture
the bully was causing HIMSELF while I was controlling
myself. Finally, I also reviewed my prospects if he
actually attacked me. He was bigger and had more reach,
but I was a LOT faster than him, and better-trained.
(He relied entirely on bulk and not skill.) If he
attacked, he would not have won-I had a number of
gambits prepared, and we were talking with plenty of
room to maneuver, which gave me the advantage.
Any way, HE learned intimidation while in the corps,
which he was in at the time. (I'd met him before this.)
Some people were apparently TRAINED specifically for this.
Why does a supposed Bible group have people trained in
intimidation, recommended they learn gun use, and have
dogs trained in intimidation?
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Steve Lortz
The total TWI degradation was much more than any one of us individually experienced, and that's saying something, given the experiences some people have gone on record relating here.
I am ashamed I ever had anything to do the old goat or his cult of ignorance.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
(This vigorous discussion is really healthy, in that it shows people have managed to put back boundaries to a more appropriate place. Well done!)
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skyrider
Yeah.....the Greasespot discussion forums will do that for you. Thanks Paw.
And, speaking of boundaries....what else was moved?
1) Plagairism.....wierwille is lauded for "putting it all together"
2) Acceptance of "The Word".....ie private interpretation
3) Elitism in "knowing this word"
4) Bullying and verbal arguments
5) Etc. etc
The sex boundaries in wierwille's world are vivid red-flags that were flying overhead in twi, but the subleties of attitude and arrogance and manipulation and coercion were in play as well. Year after year, the corps bullying grew worse and worse.
What you look at, you become.......and we were looking at WIERWILLE.
Having johniam here in these discussions serves as a guidepost of HOW FAR BOUNDARIES WERE MOVED IN TWI.....thanks john. And, to see that posters challenge him on every front illustrates that we no longer are seduced by the cult.
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johniam
quote: The credit for the good things that happened to people belonged to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But, just as Wierwille plagiarized the scholarly work of others, he wrongly attributed the credit for all the benefits to himself and his damned class.
Same old, same old double standard: praise God, not VP, but blame VP, not the devil.
Chockfull: Just for the record, VP was dead by the time John Schoenheit's adultery paper came out. Someone else sacked him.
quote:
Having johniam here in these discussions serves as a guidepost of HOW FAR BOUNDARIES WERE MOVED IN TWI.....thanks john.
You're welcome. Glad to be of help.
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johniam
quote:
Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill.
But somehow, without any degree in psychotherapy, you "know" that I'm "deeply ill".
You guys are just like seasoned wayfers from back in the day. Anything anybody says you process according to the unofficial GSC "foundational class". Just like wows. You haven't said "en garde" yet, but the implication is the same.
Twinky: One post you say I'm off topic, then I'm causing healthy discussion. Two mints in one?
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johniam
quote:
So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman?
I don't have to be an attractive woman, or even a woman to comment on this. You guys are all experts on sexual predators, right?
Speaking of comical, Roseanne Barr once made a joke about men. She set it up really well acting like she was going to say something praising men on some level. Then she says that men are really useful when it comes to reading maps, because only the male mind could conceive of one inch equalling 100 miles. Not true. The female mind is just as human as the male mind. The female equivalent is...that only the female mind could conceive of one minute of emotional outburst equalling 1,000 years of positive social change. Gotta be SOME reason why they keep doing it.
Not all women are given to emotional outbursts and not all men are pigs.
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waysider
You don't have to be an expert on dogs to recognize one when you see it.
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Steve Lortz
EXACTLY! In TWI we were expected to praise Wierwille and his damned class, NOT God or Jesus Christ! Thankfulness means "giving the credit where the credit is due."
We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. In The Way International, the excellency of the power was of Wierwille's damned PFAL.
Where does the slippery slope begin?
When they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful [they didn't give the credit to God]; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible Wierwille and his class [we gave the credit to PFAL]. Wherefore God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served Wierwille more than the Creator who is blessed forever.
Praise God and not Wiewille?... or praise Wierwille and not God!?!
I'll praise God and not Wierwille any day of the week, John... ANY day of the week!
Love,
Steve
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Jbarrax
DITTO
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geisha779
So, you have had so much exposure to inner workings of female behavior that you are confident enough to generalize about all attractive women and their motivations .....throughout history no less. Oh that's right...you don't have to be an expert to make your comments. It might actually help to know an attractive woman to comment though.
According to your logic .... they are all so busy trying to get men to stop and look at them while testing their power....that is an impossibility. You must be surrounded by very shallow women or you have prejudged them and never bothered to get to really know them. Ironically, sadly and pathetically, you quoted LCM to bolster your claims....the very same LCM who has been sued for sexual harassment. Now there is an expert on sexual predators.
On the other hand....the posters here have had YEARS of exposure to VP....his personal belief system......his views on women......his misogynistic ranting......and his perversions which consistently spilled over into his handling of scripture. Some posters have had first hand experience with VP's predatory behavior and the rest have heard the testimonials from men and women abused by him. Most of us sent years immersed in the cult VP founded.....spent our vacations at his family farm and supported him with our hard earned cash. Most of us sat in a class where he TAUGHT his views on sex. That may not make us experts on sexual predators.....but it does make us experts on one particular predator. Not only was he a sexual predator, but he was a predator in many things......he even preyed on you. You got some of the worst of it.
And...just so you know....most women are actually experts on sexual predators....we don't get through this life....attractive or not....without running into our fair share. You are right though...not all men are pigs. But then again, one who used God, HOLY scripture, his perceived authority, and a handy dandy motor coach to sexually abuse vulnerable and unprotected young women under his supposed pastoral care, he makes it to the top of the list in the world of pigs. That is on any planet.
It is all so twisted.
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OldSkool
Not only have I heard first hand accounts of much of the sexual abuse that went on within the in-residence training program by LCM, but his own grand daughter told me about his affairs on the motor coach and elsewhere. And that is the tip of the iceberg. VPW was not a good person with exaggerated stories about how bad he was. He was a monster who did all he could to suppress true stories about how bad he was. But according to johniam we are all just making it up.
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Twinky
Okay, here is something that is perhaps a precursor to the sexual predation...or perhaps it's a one step removed variant.
When I applied to go in the Corps, I was required to undergo a medical including a physical medical exam. Have a smear (pap) test. Provide details of the latest smear result.
I can only think - now - that it was LCM and perhaps his facilitators making sure that he didn't catch anything from some poor young woman victim. Can't have the MoG catching some sexually transmitted disease now, can we?
And while we're about it - let's just test young women's boundaries to interference with their private parts.
(I thought this was pretty bizarre but it was a requirement, and I thought maybe it was a requirement to enter US colleges (ha ha, it's not any such US college :( nor so far as I know is it a requirement at legit colleges) and my doc thought it bizarre also. I don't under-estimate that it's a good idea to have health checks - can be debilitating, and expensive to fix - especially if perhaps one is not a US resident/citizen and without knowledge of US medical arrangements. I might add, the doc didn't do any such test, didn't want to, just accepted my word that the latest routine test was a clear result.)
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johniam
quote: The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it.
No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age. This statement made me think about Leopold and Loeb. From what I've heard and read, they were raised privileged. One day one of them woke up and went duh, let's kill a 15 year old boy, I've always wanted to do that, y'know. Whatever it was, there was no traumatic event in either of their lives that preceded what they did that I ever heard. Do you know anything about this? I also heard that one of them was killed in prison early on, but the other genuinely repented of his deed and was able to help underprivileged people later. Good thing Clarence Darrow was their attorney.
I just think women get away with stuff in today's world. Payback, perhaps. Men used to get away with stuff a few generations ago. Example: Andrea Yates. Imagine Caryl Chessman arguing he had post male menopause depression. My thoughts are not utterly consumed by this topic. Too full of a plate.
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waysider
"No. Nothing worth complaining about at THIS age."
Brain Development
Although the brain reaches its full adult weight by the age of 21, it continues to develop for several years. In fact, a study done by the National Institutes of Health found that the region of brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully form until age 25. This is the final stage of brain development......SOURCE
Soooooo....How old were you when you first became involved with The Way?
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Steve Lortz
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women?
I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was only right, proper and innocent for a man of his great stature to have his "needs" met in this way.
Why do I think this?
Why does Jeremiah say the heart is deceitful above all things? Because the values of the heart are programmable. If you program your heart to feel it's okay to drug and rape young women, through habitual fantasizing about drugging and raping young women, then your heart is going to tell you that it's okay to drug and rape young women. That's what "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" means. Your treasure is what you attach value to in your habitual thoughts. The values you attach to things in your habitual thoughts are going to be the values that you heart reflects back to you.
The Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The Word of God tells us that drugging and raping young women is an evil intent. The emotion that prompts a person to do the Word of the Lord instead of the deceitful intents of his own heart is called "the fear of the Lord" or "the fear of God." Fear is the emotion that moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear.
With those things in mind, let's look at Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV):
"An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
"For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
"The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
"Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong."
Wierwille taught us that we shouldn't regard "fear of God" as fear, but rather as the respect we might pay an aging uncle who is too old for us to have to obey any longer. After all, we don't really have to obey God in "this wonderful administration of the grace of God", do we?
When Wierwille fantasized about drugging and raping young women, he didn't accept the criticism of God's Word. He didn't consider drugging and raping young women to be an evil intent, and he came to trust the values that he had programmed into his own heart.
Wierwille flattered Wierwille in his own eyes, too much to detect or hate his own sin... too much to DETECT his own sin!?!
His words were wicked and deceitful... PFAL was wicked and deceitful... because Wierwille had programmed his heart to be wicked and deceitful, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Wierwille ceased to be wise, and ceased to do good, long before he ever filmed PFAL.
Even in his motorcoach he plotted evil. Wierwille committed himself to a sinful course and did not reject what was wrong.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
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geisha779
We had to suspend a great deal of reality to believe in VP the first time around....... I remember turning a deaf ear and blind eyes to the MANY warnings about VP......but, with enough good information and solid evidence most of us eventually snapped back. I guess some people just like that suspended reality. Where else can you get God's explicit approval for intense misogynistic thoughts and attitudes.....things our society doesn't even condone?
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skyrider
Along withe the MANY warnings about vp.....for years, I kept thinking "Where are the signs, miracles and wonders? Why haven't I seen wierwille in the middle of God's miracles? Why doesn't wierwille initiate a healing service at the Rock of Ages anymore? Why is twi's headquarters so religiously dead?"
In hindsight......I believe that wierwille was waxing more seductive and evil. Although many wonderful God-revering folks were in twi and searching for truth....twi's roots were growing idolatrous and wicked imaginations.
Interesting, isn't it?.....as Rev. Billy Graham, age 93, basks in the sunlight of his golden years and respect from his colleagues/ministers worldwide, wierwille has been in the grave for 26 years and now the evil is coming to the light. What a contrast!
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OldSkool
I think most understand what I was saying here, but to be sure (and since I could have worded it better,) VPW's granddaughter told me of his extra-marital affairs and more. Not LCM's granddaughter. Just wanted to clarify for people reading that may be new to things on GSC.
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