I agree.....wierwille knew he was deceiving himself.
Pour another drambuie and avoid the subject.....and only in the most private settings attempt to seduce with "spiritually mature can handle it" jargon.
The man DISQUALIFIED himself from teaching or leading anyone. The Timothy and Titus scriptures couldn't be any more plain, PERIOD.
Once had a guy defending on this topic and he said "Well, if we had to wait for someone to be perfect we'd never get anything done dernit!"
Bingo. Sermon over. Pass the hat Padre, all we need now is beer money.
People don't want to leave well enough alone, be happy with what they've got and be willing to earn what they don't have and move the Living Word of Christ on their own get up and go, people like VPW (and he's not alone in this respect by any means) choose to build a profit earning Jesus-Inc. business to provide the engine for their "ministry", basically financing their own dream machines and getting a livelihood to boot. But it turns into a gnarly birds nest of greed and creed - look at the Weirwille heritage - not a one of them has a right to their family farm, property or anything on it. It's "God's" now - all for the good of the "ministry" that continues to provide museum space for his legacy.
Which is great because WE ALL KNOW HOW MUCH GOD REALLY NEEDS FARMLAND IN OHIO. Sad, tragic, weird, bizarre.
The most important things have already been done (by God in Christ) - it's in man's self-made maniacal machinations to build a better god-trap that he's always catching his tail.
........ - look at the Weirwille heritage - not a one of them has a right to their family farm, property or anything on it. It's "God's" now - all for the good of the "ministry" that continues to provide museum space for his legacy.
Sometimes, I think that in our youth......many of us swallowed all this "wierwille family farm, heritage, and legacy" stuff that was blown way out of proportion. Heck.....there was only 147 acres and a broken down farm house in 1961, before victor moved his "ministry" back to Dad's homestead. Being born and raised in rural America....I can attest to how wimpy 147 acres is. In farming terms.......its SQUAT.
Maybe 147 acres....one can raise a small herd of cattle on an alfalfa field with a chicken coop, some hogs and a small corn field. But really....it ain't much. Small farms are like 3,000 acres......big farms can have 8,000 - 15,000 acres or more. Dairy farming, crop farming, cattle ranches, etc......all are different and many can have assets into the millions.
Really....seems like NONE of the wierwille boys wanted to farm. And, imo....the only reason wierwille headed back to "the farm" was for seclusion. He could shelter himself in his own little world of narcissism.
The wierwille heritage and legacy is laced in idolatry.
The question was, do you believe VP really believed the yarn about adultery is OK, or was he knowingly doing something he believed was wrong? He really DID believe it was all OK. The part where he told her "a man of God needs lots of women" something like that.
I believe VP fully knew what he was doing was wrong, mocked the scriptures in that category, and had a good ole boys club with Howard Allen where they did the same. I recall seeing a little drawing in the motorcycle shed at HQ that was a cartoon of two fleas having intercourse, with the caption "flea fornication". That's the mark of the good 'ole boys club full of sexual predators.
My personal feeling is that Wierwille was probably psychopathic. As such, he was able to recognize, on a cognitive level, that his behavior was unacceptable, but emotionally unable to feel any remorse or empathy. I think it was Sunesis who once posted about an incident she witnessed where Wierewille feigned instantaneous outrage over something that had happened and then turned right around and glibly confided in her that he was putting on an act.
I think he knew what he was doing was wrong. He just didn't care.
VP came out of the church......he turned away from sound doctrine to embrace sin.....that is why he despised the church so much. He tried so hard to instill that disdain in us.....misery loves company I guess. At one time he knew correct teaching on sexual sin.....but he turned away to satisfy his lust. In hindsight it is glaringly obvious. He turned the grace of God into licentiousness.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
We got caught up in that mess for a time. The good thing is we don't have to continue in it.
Steve Lortz is absolutely correct....it is all tainted. PFAL is such a self serving and corrupt reading of scripture. The teacher himself...the man who sold us his class....he left sound doctrine in favor of sin.
Sexual sin is especially offense to God according to the scriptures...... and as insane and vocal as they were about homosexuality and purging the ranks to purify them (yuck)...they failed to acknowledge adultery or notice adultery is listed as sinful more often than inordinate affection.
I can't quote it because it was within another quote, but Waysider stated yesterday that VP "...openly stated, in group situations, that he sexually molested his own adolescent daughter." That just floors me. I'm almost incredulous.
Talk about moving boundaries! Everyone who heard him say that and didn't leave within 24 hours definitely had boundaries moved. Perhaps that was one of the tactics he used to groom his victims. If they could accept the fact that he had violated his own daughter, on what grounds could they refuse his advances?
The only context in which I can think of that this was not a psychopathic ploy would have been if he had confessed it as a grievous sin in order to demonstrate that if a worthless scumbag like him could go on to run a "Christian" ministry then God could and would forgive them for any of their past sins and allow them to serve.
But
knowing all the other corruption that spewed from New Knoxville, I doubt that was the context or purpose of the statement.
One nitpicky correction though, WS. If you didn't hear him say it, it's not first hand information. Having heard it from other here in the Cafe makes it second hand testimony.
I can't quote it because it was within another quote, but Waysider stated yesterday that VP "...openly stated, in group situations, that he sexually molested his own adolescent daughter." That just floors me. I'm almost incredulous.
Talk about moving boundaries! Everyone who heard him say that and didn't leave within 24 hours definitely had boundaries moved. Perhaps that was one of the tactics he used to groom his victims. If they could accept the fact that he had violated his own daughter, on what grounds could they refuse his advances?
The only context in which I can think of that this was not a psychopathic ploy would have been if he had confessed it as a grievous sin in order to demonstrate that if a worthless scumbag like him could go on to run a "Christian" ministry then God could and would forgive them for any of their past sins and allow them to serve.
But
knowing all the other corruption that spewed from New Knoxville, I doubt that was the context or purpose of the statement.
One nitpicky correction though, WS. If you didn't hear him say it, it's not first hand information. Having heard it from other here in the Cafe makes it second hand testimony.
Yes, that would make it second hand to me. There are, however, posters (plural) here who were present and have given their first hand testimony on GSC. I also heard it from someone who was present but does not post here. In fact, that recounting of the incident happened many years before GSC existed.
And, no, it wasn't presented in the context of penitence. Rather, he used the incident to describe how he had done something "beneficial" for his daughter by instructing her in what to expect from the touch of a male hand. I'm being intentionally vague in my description. (ie: He used it to REDEFINE boundaries.)
Yes, that would make it second hand to me. There are, however, posters (plural) here who were present and have given their first hand testimony on GSC. I also heard it from someone who was present but does not post here. In fact, that recounting of the incident happened many years before GSC existed.
I stand corrected. Firsthand it is.
And, no, it wasn't presented in the context of penitence. Rather, he used the incident to describe how he had done something "beneficial" for his daughter by instructing her in what to expect from the touch of a male hand. I'm being intentionally vague in my description. (ie: He used it to REDEFINE boundaries.)
One poster who was present became nauseated, had to leave and went to the ladies room. (It was an all-women meeting) Another poster who was present, followed her to make sure she was alright. They both still post here.
And lest we should forget.....How many here were subjected to that insane "class" called Christian Family and Sex? I was in one of the very first presentations of this piece of crap. I can't believe I actually stayed in The Way after that. Shame on me.
VP did violate consent if he drugged anyone. He could have seen on the faces of some of those women that they weren't blessed. He was self serving. But he wasn't a pedophile!
(snip)
I can see that some of us can't cross from "idyllic fantasy of my youth" to
"the ugly truth behind the scenes while I thought everything was fine."
Here's a perspective that few consider.....regarding wierwille.
In 1957....wierwille left his church pastorate (age 40)
In 1967....pfal was filmed and finished near end of yr (age 51)
In 1968....wiewille in California and looking for orgies (age 51)
In 1975....Christian Family and Sex class is videotaped (age 58)
In 1978....wierwille and corps girls on motorcoach (age 61)
IMO....wierwille had orchestrated this world of seclusion and privacy to serve the lusts of his flesh. By choice, his life was spiraling downward year after year....and he was teaching and pulling others downward with him.
Without the "man of God" title.....many would label him a dirty old man.
But really, wierwille's life is simply a testimony of the truth of the scriptures. As wierwille spiralled downward.....he LEFT his heavenly Father and embraced the world's evil. 1 John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation". It wasn't his intent, nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
I believe most of those women consented. At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God. There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that. I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't. Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard.
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
(snip)
John, you might want to reconsider the soundness of your thinking. You're using the rationalizations of Martindale, a serial sexual predator, trained by Wierwille, a serial sexual predator, to turn the blame back onto the victims. And they WERE victims.
Illegally speeding on a country road to see how much power your car has? Wasn't that what Wierwille was doing? Breaking moral laws to see how much he could get away with, to reassure himself of how "powerful" his masculinity was?
Your argument is not making Wierwille sound any better. You're highlighting how much worse he was, even worse than you think.
Blame the victim, Johniam, why don't you? Those women ... they were just asking for it, weren't they?
In fact, they seduced that righteous man, VPW.
...In fact, isn't VPW the victim in all this, falling prey to those "arche" women?
He surely is going to have some 'splaining to do, telling why his boundaries were so far removed that he fell prey to them and was caused to be unfaithful to his wife of many years.
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman? Is there something you are not telling us? I mean ....you just know how women like to dress up for attention from random men....right? Research? Take that chassis out for a spin and see how much power it has? You understand this thought process? This is how attractive women think? What is the age cut off? Is it just single pretty women who do this or do married women also think this way? What about ugly girls....what do they think when throwing on their sweats for another sad day without the responsibility and power of beauty? They must have another focus. Smart girls? Oh wait....what if a woman is smart and pretty? What is she thinking?
How do you know all this John.....do you dress up in pretty clothes and do this? You seem to have some serious insight ?
Oh wait... your reference is LCM's expertise....well, that explains a great deal.
Thanks....I needed a belly laugh today.....and I also needed to know what to wear.....jeans or Prada? You are the expert. Oh wait...I don't have any Prada.....just a closet full of sweats and jeans.....so......according to your logic(I use that word loosely) that must mean I am an ugly girl. LOL
If it wasn't so twisted....it would be offensive, but your post passes from offensive into inane and downright comical.
What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation".
Do you have daughters, John? Would you have fondled them in a manner such as Wierwille claimed to have done? Would you object to someone else having fondling them? What about you, yourself, fondling the adolescent daughter of someone else? I have to tell you, John, courts of law do not look favorably on such actions.
It wasn't his intent,
John, we don't know that he actually did what he claimed to have done. What we do know, however, is that he did, in fact, claim to have done it..... Intention is a moot point. I doubt the fellow who got drunk, hopped in his car and subsequently killed someone because of his actions, set out with the intention of killing someone. Still dead. End of story.
nor did it do any damage.
How would you be able to know that?
She married, had children,
What's your point? Plenty of sexually abused girls grow up to become women who marry and have children. What does that prove, if anything?
and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
I'm not pointing fingers at any one individual but how foolish is it to continue to support the "work" of a man who has been proven to be a fraud?
I believe most of those women consented.
Two problems here, John.
1.Most??? So, you are recognizing there were SOME who did not consent?
2. Consent is irrelevant. He targeted these women, devised elaborate schemes to have sexual relations with them and then committed adultery, after which he "disposed" of them like toys that he had tired of.....That's sexual predation, consent or no consent.
At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God.
They thought it was an honor because he led them to believe as much. They trusted his judgement because he appointed himself to a position that should have warranted trust. He betrayed that trust.
There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it.
There was no internet, cell phone technology, etc. at the time. It wasn't like today, when the simplest of things goes virol on youtube.
Most of those women were Ok with him doing that.
So, you've discussed this with "most" of these women? How else could you know they were OK with it?
I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either.
You don't have to buy it. It is what it is.
You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't.
(See previous comments regarding consent.)
Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them.
"Everybody" believes them? How so?
Nice double standard.
I've noticed you've raised this double standard issue many times through the years you have been posting here? Do you feel like life has somehow dealt you an unfair hand because of your gender?
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power.
And Martindale is qualified to make this assessment because ....? Martindale had no credentials in this area. He, himself, appears to be a sexual predator, based on his documented history of sexual promiscuity and scandal.
It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much.
(See comments regarding double standards.)
Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent.
(See comments regarding issues with perceived double standards.)
But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially
That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
Exploitation is a component of predation. .
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good.
I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything.
Then be thankful for whatever benefits you gained and try a bit harder to understand that not everyone had the same experience that you did.
I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
With John's attitude like that, I have to wonder what sort of looker Jeaniam is.
If she is pleasant to the eyes and dresses nicely, sounds like she must be on the pull for whatever sort of males come along. Just to see if she has the "power."
Or is she supposed to dress like a frump and hide herself under a brown paper bag, a chador, whatever, so that she doesn't "tempt" males.
John's attitude isn't far from extremist Islamists who think all women are deliberate temptresses and therefore compel them to cover themselves completely. (Of course, what such an attitude displays really is not that women are temptresses but that men are out of control with out of control lusty impulses, and therefore have to have their impulses controlled for them. Like kids who have to be told they can't eat all the candy in the store.)
I remember Lovely Loy teaching the men in my Corps that it was okay to ogle women's breasts...well, it was Ed H0rney, but Ed wouldn't have done that without LCM having specifically wanted that to be taught. The men in my twig were appalled.
(Go on, John, have at it. You know you want to distract this thread even more!)
What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation". It wasn't his intent, nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
Honestly, I'd have to ask Sarah about it. Outside of her direct response there is no logical or reasonable way to confirm what was or was not damaging. I do know many of VP's grandkids were raised with the doctrine and expectation that men will cheat on their wives with other women. Would you raise your kids that way? Is that Biblical doctrine to teach your kids that by words and example?
I believe most of those women consented. At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God. There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that. I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't. Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard.
So just addressing this from a legal standard, you do realize that LCM was successfully sued for quid pro quo sexual harassment, right? This means that there was concrete evidence that LCM in one of the lawsuit cases used his position of power to elicit sex from someone who he was in authority over. Corporations have these types of scandals all the time. It usually ends in the person in power being fired because they broke the law. So whether or not you buy the 'authority negates consent', the laws of the land certainly are set up to prevent that type of abuse.
VP had a whole system down to support his sexual depravity. There's a story here by Catcup of her sister's experience, where she confronted VP on what he did to her, and his response was "she'd better have pictures". VP would blackball anyone who spoke up and tell their local leadership they were possessed. Nobody in TWI would have doubted him. LCM the same. He convinced one girl that he saved her life by remaining at HQ and continuing to have sex with him, which caused her husband to commit suicide. His rationale to the girl was that the husband was going to kill himself anyway and would have killed her too if she went with him.
One of the things that happened after LCM was 'busted' by being forced to lay out a laundry list of all those he slept with was that all the BOD confronted each one of those females and counseled them to show them how it was their fault too for consenting. What they didn't address though was how RFR and Donna would provide willing mistresses to married clergymen.
This sexual depravity and corruption existed throughout all generations of that corrupt organization, whether or not any of us were aware of it at the time. Now they are trying to sweep it all under the rug and "hold onto the Word VP taught", not realizing that a little leaven of a Pharisee leavens the whole lump. The only real way to God's will would be to throw it all out, remove all those in power and start over. But those in power have too much invested to ever give it up.
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
I think to summarize LCM's attitude towards women, he was a pig. And you sound like a pig too in this paragraph.
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
JS's adultery paper was like a high school level word study on how adultery is wrong. Reading it, it should be apparent common sense what it contained. The amazing thing about the paper is the impact it had on all the higher leadership in TWI. If VP wasn't near the monster he's made out to be, if he had any humility to the Word, he would have responded to that paper according to the example VP himself taught of David in the OT. When the prophet Nathan confronted him over his acts with Bathsheba and having Uriah killed, he repented. VP did not repent. He had Schoenheit fired and bum rushed out of there faster than you could shake a stick.
Sorry johniam, the evidence and logic is just piling up against your views and outlooks on this stuff. You might just have to take another look at your beliefs there.
I don't know, I read Johniam's posts. Having spent 10 years with a verbally, physically, and sexually abusive wayfer husband who held those same opinions as Johniam's all I can think is that he is a very weak, frightened little boy who has a deep seated hatred for women. He feels powerless, immasculated, and angry like the 2 year old in the midsts of a temper tantrum.
Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill.
The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it.
Its funny how the victims can at times empathize with the perpetrator's no? Do you think that is one of the vulnerablilities predators pick up on? That the victim is capable of empathizing or understanding the predator's sickness?
I don't know, I read Johniam's posts. Having spent 10 years with a verbally, physically, and sexually abusive wayfer husband who held those same opinions as Johniam's all I can think is that he is a very weak, frightened little boy who has a deep seated hatred for women. He feels powerless, immasculated, and angry like the 2 year old in the midsts of a temper tantrum.
Maybe. He also may be playing devil's advocate here and stirring things up to help himself sort out his outlook on TWI and his experiences. I don't really know the man. But I thought he said he had a wife and kids, and if they are 'normal' people then I would tend to think johniam is just trolling it up on the interw3bz. Again I guess you'd really have to meet them all to tell for sure.
Ya, you're right We're just sittin around making up stories....
The truth has always to me turned out much stranger than fiction, my friend.
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WordWolf
vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed o
Steve Lortz
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women? I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was on
chockfull
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait. Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their
socks
Once had a guy defending on this topic and he said "Well, if we had to wait for someone to be perfect we'd never get anything done dernit!"
Bingo. Sermon over. Pass the hat Padre, all we need now is beer money.
People don't want to leave well enough alone, be happy with what they've got and be willing to earn what they don't have and move the Living Word of Christ on their own get up and go, people like VPW (and he's not alone in this respect by any means) choose to build a profit earning Jesus-Inc. business to provide the engine for their "ministry", basically financing their own dream machines and getting a livelihood to boot. But it turns into a gnarly birds nest of greed and creed - look at the Weirwille heritage - not a one of them has a right to their family farm, property or anything on it. It's "God's" now - all for the good of the "ministry" that continues to provide museum space for his legacy.
Which is great because WE ALL KNOW HOW MUCH GOD REALLY NEEDS FARMLAND IN OHIO. Sad, tragic, weird, bizarre.
The most important things have already been done (by God in Christ) - it's in man's self-made maniacal machinations to build a better god-trap that he's always catching his tail.
Period.
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skyrider
Sometimes, I think that in our youth......many of us swallowed all this "wierwille family farm, heritage, and legacy" stuff that was blown way out of proportion. Heck.....there was only 147 acres and a broken down farm house in 1961, before victor moved his "ministry" back to Dad's homestead. Being born and raised in rural America....I can attest to how wimpy 147 acres is. In farming terms.......its SQUAT.
Maybe 147 acres....one can raise a small herd of cattle on an alfalfa field with a chicken coop, some hogs and a small corn field. But really....it ain't much. Small farms are like 3,000 acres......big farms can have 8,000 - 15,000 acres or more. Dairy farming, crop farming, cattle ranches, etc......all are different and many can have assets into the millions.
Really....seems like NONE of the wierwille boys wanted to farm. And, imo....the only reason wierwille headed back to "the farm" was for seclusion. He could shelter himself in his own little world of narcissism.
The wierwille heritage and legacy is laced in idolatry.
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chockfull
I believe VP fully knew what he was doing was wrong, mocked the scriptures in that category, and had a good ole boys club with Howard Allen where they did the same. I recall seeing a little drawing in the motorcycle shed at HQ that was a cartoon of two fleas having intercourse, with the caption "flea fornication". That's the mark of the good 'ole boys club full of sexual predators.
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waysider
My personal feeling is that Wierwille was probably psychopathic. As such, he was able to recognize, on a cognitive level, that his behavior was unacceptable, but emotionally unable to feel any remorse or empathy. I think it was Sunesis who once posted about an incident she witnessed where Wierewille feigned instantaneous outrage over something that had happened and then turned right around and glibly confided in her that he was putting on an act.
I think he knew what he was doing was wrong. He just didn't care.
IMO
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geisha779
VP came out of the church......he turned away from sound doctrine to embrace sin.....that is why he despised the church so much. He tried so hard to instill that disdain in us.....misery loves company I guess. At one time he knew correct teaching on sexual sin.....but he turned away to satisfy his lust. In hindsight it is glaringly obvious. He turned the grace of God into licentiousness.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
We got caught up in that mess for a time. The good thing is we don't have to continue in it.
Steve Lortz is absolutely correct....it is all tainted. PFAL is such a self serving and corrupt reading of scripture. The teacher himself...the man who sold us his class....he left sound doctrine in favor of sin.
Sexual sin is especially offense to God according to the scriptures...... and as insane and vocal as they were about homosexuality and purging the ranks to purify them (yuck)...they failed to acknowledge adultery or notice adultery is listed as sinful more often than inordinate affection.
Go figure.
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Jbarrax
I can't quote it because it was within another quote, but Waysider stated yesterday that VP "...openly stated, in group situations, that he sexually molested his own adolescent daughter." That just floors me. I'm almost incredulous.
Talk about moving boundaries! Everyone who heard him say that and didn't leave within 24 hours definitely had boundaries moved. Perhaps that was one of the tactics he used to groom his victims. If they could accept the fact that he had violated his own daughter, on what grounds could they refuse his advances?
The only context in which I can think of that this was not a psychopathic ploy would have been if he had confessed it as a grievous sin in order to demonstrate that if a worthless scumbag like him could go on to run a "Christian" ministry then God could and would forgive them for any of their past sins and allow them to serve.
But
knowing all the other corruption that spewed from New Knoxville, I doubt that was the context or purpose of the statement.
One nitpicky correction though, WS. If you didn't hear him say it, it's not first hand information. Having heard it from other here in the Cafe makes it second hand testimony.
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waysider
Yes, that would make it second hand to me. There are, however, posters (plural) here who were present and have given their first hand testimony on GSC. I also heard it from someone who was present but does not post here. In fact, that recounting of the incident happened many years before GSC existed.
And, no, it wasn't presented in the context of penitence. Rather, he used the incident to describe how he had done something "beneficial" for his daughter by instructing her in what to expect from the touch of a male hand. I'm being intentionally vague in my description. (ie: He used it to REDEFINE boundaries.)
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Jbarrax
I stand corrected. Firsthand it is.
That's beyond reprehensible. What a scumbag.
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waysider
One poster who was present became nauseated, had to leave and went to the ladies room. (It was an all-women meeting) Another poster who was present, followed her to make sure she was alright. They both still post here.
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waysider
And lest we should forget.....How many here were subjected to that insane "class" called Christian Family and Sex? I was in one of the very first presentations of this piece of crap. I can't believe I actually stayed in The Way after that. Shame on me.
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krys
That was one of their more perverted programs if I recall.
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WordWolf
I can see that some of us can't cross from "idyllic fantasy of my youth" to
"the ugly truth behind the scenes while I thought everything was fine."
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skyrider
Here's a perspective that few consider.....regarding wierwille.
In 1957....wierwille left his church pastorate (age 40)
In 1967....pfal was filmed and finished near end of yr (age 51)
In 1968....wiewille in California and looking for orgies (age 51)
In 1975....Christian Family and Sex class is videotaped (age 58)
In 1978....wierwille and corps girls on motorcoach (age 61)
IMO....wierwille had orchestrated this world of seclusion and privacy to serve the lusts of his flesh. By choice, his life was spiraling downward year after year....and he was teaching and pulling others downward with him.
Without the "man of God" title.....many would label him a dirty old man.
But really, wierwille's life is simply a testimony of the truth of the scriptures. As wierwille spiralled downward.....he LEFT his heavenly Father and embraced the world's evil. 1 John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Wierwille's life ended with a THUD.
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johniam
What VP did to Sarah does not constitute "sexual molestation". It wasn't his intent, nor did it do any damage. She married, had children, and she and her husband continue to support a spinoff which follows in the foot steps of VPs teachings. How foolish to assign damage and blame where none exists.
I believe most of those women consented. At least, at the time, thought it an honor to serve the man of God. There's no way he could have kept that up for more than 10 years if all those women immediately responded like the girl in Marcia's story. He was already under fire for being a "cult leader". If there had been any evidence whatsoever that he was routinely drugging and raping women the media would have been all over it. Most of those women were Ok with him doing that. I don't buy the 'authority negates consent' BS either. You can't have it both ways: either they consented (at the time) or they didn't. Nobody's letting VP have it both ways, but women today can consent at the time, then claim they didn't consent one day or ten years later and everybody believes them. Nice double standard.
Being an attractive woman is what LCM called an "arche". A position of dignity. A position of power. It can be that for a guy too, but not nearly as much. Throughout history any woman who is reasonably attractive will have a vehicle of power. Back in the day, when someone got themselves a new car, the tradition was they would take the car to a rural road and see how fast it would go. 100mph? It was possible then. A car has a sphere of power to it's owner. It's natural to wonder what can I do with this power. So it's only natural for women to wonder what they can do with whatever power they have as attractive women. What will happen when I wear this outfit around this crowd? How often do men stop what they're doing and look at me when I walk by? Research. That's not evil, it's even prudent. But it must make your blood boil if any man, minister or not, can anticipate your thoughts and take advantage of you. Sexually. Financially. That must hurt. 'Made the world a wilderness' indeed.
I read John Schoenheit's adultery paper once, ten years ago. It was a word study. It made sense. The #1 scripture I think of on that subject is in Proverbs. A wound and dishonor will he get. Not good. I really did benefit from being in twi much much more than I suffered anything. I don't believe VP is near the monster some of you make him out to be, but he's got to have some 'splaining to do. That's good enough for me.
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Steve Lortz
John, you might want to reconsider the soundness of your thinking. You're using the rationalizations of Martindale, a serial sexual predator, trained by Wierwille, a serial sexual predator, to turn the blame back onto the victims. And they WERE victims.
Illegally speeding on a country road to see how much power your car has? Wasn't that what Wierwille was doing? Breaking moral laws to see how much he could get away with, to reassure himself of how "powerful" his masculinity was?
Your argument is not making Wierwille sound any better. You're highlighting how much worse he was, even worse than you think.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Blame the victim, Johniam, why don't you? Those women ... they were just asking for it, weren't they?
In fact, they seduced that righteous man, VPW.
...In fact, isn't VPW the victim in all this, falling prey to those "arche" women?
He surely is going to have some 'splaining to do, telling why his boundaries were so far removed that he fell prey to them and was caused to be unfaithful to his wife of many years.
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geisha779
So now you are an expert on being an attractive woman? Is there something you are not telling us? I mean ....you just know how women like to dress up for attention from random men....right? Research? Take that chassis out for a spin and see how much power it has? You understand this thought process? This is how attractive women think? What is the age cut off? Is it just single pretty women who do this or do married women also think this way? What about ugly girls....what do they think when throwing on their sweats for another sad day without the responsibility and power of beauty? They must have another focus. Smart girls? Oh wait....what if a woman is smart and pretty? What is she thinking?
How do you know all this John.....do you dress up in pretty clothes and do this? You seem to have some serious insight ?
Oh wait... your reference is LCM's expertise....well, that explains a great deal.
Thanks....I needed a belly laugh today.....and I also needed to know what to wear.....jeans or Prada? You are the expert. Oh wait...I don't have any Prada.....just a closet full of sweats and jeans.....so......according to your logic(I use that word loosely) that must mean I am an ugly girl. LOL
If it wasn't so twisted....it would be offensive, but your post passes from offensive into inane and downright comical.
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waysider
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OldSkool
Ya, you're right
We're just sittin around making up stories.... 
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geisha779
Your "benefit" is showing.
At least you are not a poster boy for what damage can be done to a person by long term exposure to VP's misogynistic ramblings and scripture twisting.
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Twinky
With John's attitude like that, I have to wonder what sort of looker Jeaniam is.
If she is pleasant to the eyes and dresses nicely, sounds like she must be on the pull for whatever sort of males come along. Just to see if she has the "power."
Or is she supposed to dress like a frump and hide herself under a brown paper bag, a chador, whatever, so that she doesn't "tempt" males.
John's attitude isn't far from extremist Islamists who think all women are deliberate temptresses and therefore compel them to cover themselves completely. (Of course, what such an attitude displays really is not that women are temptresses but that men are out of control with out of control lusty impulses, and therefore have to have their impulses controlled for them. Like kids who have to be told they can't eat all the candy in the store.)
I remember Lovely Loy teaching the men in my Corps that it was okay to ogle women's breasts...well, it was Ed H0rney, but Ed wouldn't have done that without LCM having specifically wanted that to be taught. The men in my twig were appalled.
(Go on, John, have at it. You know you want to distract this thread even more!)
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chockfull
Honestly, I'd have to ask Sarah about it. Outside of her direct response there is no logical or reasonable way to confirm what was or was not damaging. I do know many of VP's grandkids were raised with the doctrine and expectation that men will cheat on their wives with other women. Would you raise your kids that way? Is that Biblical doctrine to teach your kids that by words and example?
So just addressing this from a legal standard, you do realize that LCM was successfully sued for quid pro quo sexual harassment, right? This means that there was concrete evidence that LCM in one of the lawsuit cases used his position of power to elicit sex from someone who he was in authority over. Corporations have these types of scandals all the time. It usually ends in the person in power being fired because they broke the law. So whether or not you buy the 'authority negates consent', the laws of the land certainly are set up to prevent that type of abuse.
VP had a whole system down to support his sexual depravity. There's a story here by Catcup of her sister's experience, where she confronted VP on what he did to her, and his response was "she'd better have pictures". VP would blackball anyone who spoke up and tell their local leadership they were possessed. Nobody in TWI would have doubted him. LCM the same. He convinced one girl that he saved her life by remaining at HQ and continuing to have sex with him, which caused her husband to commit suicide. His rationale to the girl was that the husband was going to kill himself anyway and would have killed her too if she went with him.
One of the things that happened after LCM was 'busted' by being forced to lay out a laundry list of all those he slept with was that all the BOD confronted each one of those females and counseled them to show them how it was their fault too for consenting. What they didn't address though was how RFR and Donna would provide willing mistresses to married clergymen.
This sexual depravity and corruption existed throughout all generations of that corrupt organization, whether or not any of us were aware of it at the time. Now they are trying to sweep it all under the rug and "hold onto the Word VP taught", not realizing that a little leaven of a Pharisee leavens the whole lump. The only real way to God's will would be to throw it all out, remove all those in power and start over. But those in power have too much invested to ever give it up.
I think to summarize LCM's attitude towards women, he was a pig. And you sound like a pig too in this paragraph.
JS's adultery paper was like a high school level word study on how adultery is wrong. Reading it, it should be apparent common sense what it contained. The amazing thing about the paper is the impact it had on all the higher leadership in TWI. If VP wasn't near the monster he's made out to be, if he had any humility to the Word, he would have responded to that paper according to the example VP himself taught of David in the OT. When the prophet Nathan confronted him over his acts with Bathsheba and having Uriah killed, he repented. VP did not repent. He had Schoenheit fired and bum rushed out of there faster than you could shake a stick.
Sorry johniam, the evidence and logic is just piling up against your views and outlooks on this stuff. You might just have to take another look at your beliefs there.
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Abigail
I don't know, I read Johniam's posts. Having spent 10 years with a verbally, physically, and sexually abusive wayfer husband who held those same opinions as Johniam's all I can think is that he is a very weak, frightened little boy who has a deep seated hatred for women. He feels powerless, immasculated, and angry like the 2 year old in the midsts of a temper tantrum.
Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill.
The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it.
Its funny how the victims can at times empathize with the perpetrator's no? Do you think that is one of the vulnerablilities predators pick up on? That the victim is capable of empathizing or understanding the predator's sickness?
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chockfull
Maybe. He also may be playing devil's advocate here and stirring things up to help himself sort out his outlook on TWI and his experiences. I don't really know the man. But I thought he said he had a wife and kids, and if they are 'normal' people then I would tend to think johniam is just trolling it up on the interw3bz. Again I guess you'd really have to meet them all to tell for sure.
The truth has always to me turned out much stranger than fiction, my friend.
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