Comparing VP to the Penn state guy and now the Syracuse guy is fabrication.
quote: Maybe it's just me.....but why do I always get the impression that your posts almost always distract from the topic, especially when the spotlight shines on the sins of wierwille?
Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP?
quote:
After all these years, johniam.....can you now SEE the evil of wierwille and his predatory ways? Can you possibly admit to yourself that the man was a wolf in sheeps' clothing? Can you shoulder the truth behind the wierwille-worship and the twi-cult?
See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help.
They should make a movie about Kris' book. Anthony Hopkins (Hannibal Lecter/The apostle Paul) could play VP, George Chiklis (the Commish/the sheild) could play Chris Geer, whoever played the bailiff on Night Court could play LCM, Jessica Alba could play Kris, and Anne Hathaway could play Excathedra. She was not referred to in the book, but she could be another victim. This movie's getting expensive.
Seriously, I think that book was mainly intended to be read by non twiers. It hit me as not as abbrasive as GSC. But if I had no twi experience I'd be reading along and...what???? German shepherds???? These people are Christians???? Yeah, that would be fun to watch someone's reaction while reading that part.
I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me. But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.
But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.
John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion. I think it is very clear to everyone who has been posting on this thread what is meant by the expression. It's not about the Bible, it's not about movies or books or listening to VP expound his mangled version of scripture, or your personal experience with glossolalia in session #12. It's about the chronic behavioral patterns of sexual predators. Maybe you, yourself, are having trouble understanding what it means to "move boundaries" because it hits too close to home. Which side of the moved boundaries were you on? Were you the one who moved someone's boundaries or did someone else move your boundaries? Skip the Sunday School lessons, please. I think most of us are familiar with those scriptures.
Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP?
Ex-TWI website. Why wouldn't the spotlight shine on the sins of VPW? If you don't like reading about them, well, I don't think anyone is forcing you to.
See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help.
Yes, the more I read your posts, the more I think you would like to reach out and touch. It sure would explain why you work so hard to defend a sexual predator
I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me.
Note the word concerned. Not anger, not discust, not disturb - just concern. You reveal so much about yourself by the words you choose.
But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.
Yup, just like VPW. Its perfectly okay to be a sexual predator, to hurt women, rape them. Afterall, dead in trespasses and sins and seated in the heavenlies, right? Sin all you damned fool please and your still heaven bound? Or are you?
Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP?
As much as I shudder to dignify your trollish posts with a response....here goes
The spotlight not only shines on the sins of VP but the corrupt organization he left behind that still holds control over people to this very day. Not to mention various splinter groups who use his white washed image to sell their materials while the splinter group leaders know first hand of VP's abuse, sexual and otherwise.
Not one of them have come out and publicly admitted the truth about this man, that he was a plagiarist, a rapist, a control freak, a megalomaniac who set himself as the man of God to our day and time, and the list could go on. Once the spotlight shines on the man the works he left behind fall to pieces. Not to mention his "research" is riddled with error.
But I am just summarizing some of what has been public knowledge on GSC and other sites for years.
"dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies"
The Word he taught isn't negated by his actions, his like everyone else's are what they are be they good or bad.
It's that Word that needs to be understood clearly. VPW missed the boat on some very important stuff. In order to get to a fully forgiven status through a redemption accomplished by Christ's sacrifice he made all sin - both the condition of man separated from God AND the things that condition produces - the same. "Sin" is sin is sin is sin, to him they were all the same, no better or worse, no gradients, no one better or worse than another in "God's eyes".
Besides being just plain wrong that creates a sonic disconnect so loud it drowns out all biblical logic and reason to the point it turns Christians who hold to it into belly-button staring addicts of feel good grace. After a few 1,000 hits of the stuff they blur off into a glassy brained state of "whatever", losing their grounding to the moral and ethical realities of that "heavenly seat" they have. It's all one big wash of golden na-na land.
Yet - as is obvious in many ex-Wayfers - they're the first to get the most adamant and ignited over perceived slights to their own right to the pearly gates of their PFAL given palace of What'sRightInThisGodForsakenWorld.
Knock the dust of that cap and hit the book and read it for real, john. Yeah, that's a little insulting but only because I think you know in your Real Brain that much of what you write here is conflicted.
I don't have a problem with most of what VPW taught and I'm of the mind that his propensity for being a prideful bag of hot air much of the time didn't hold him down as much as it would have a lot of people. But the sand in the machinery of life is less fear and more the bull-s--t we feed ourselves if make our own present more palatable by waiting for that Big Ol' Heavenly Seat in the Sky that's coming to us.
Oh, this world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through.....but y'know, if we take care of the one that's coming like the one we've got now....
Right outta the gate God establishes a level of severity - eat of all the trees but not this one - do that and it's all over.
I would contend that the "tree" was choice - not that choice is wrong, the capacity to choose is inherent in man from the start and is God given. Rather that using that faculty to choose "evil" will bring about destruction. Choose correctly, don't exercise the capacity to choose wrongly. What their choices were is unclear but it's clear that it was important that they have the ability to think for themselves and that it's important to God that man choose right, do right and not "know" evil by choosing it.
Oversimplified? Not if the Genesis record is taken literally - if man chooses evil, wrong, he goes against his instructions. Told that he "won't die" but rather will become like God Himself, he takes that route. Aware that he's done wrong he tries to conceal it.
When we do wrong we try to conceal it, ourselves, we try to hide it.
"Lock box".
Nothing is hidden that can not be known, that will not be known if only to God. With God the secrets of the heart are open, clear. We don't know all and contrary to some interpretations of the bible I don't believe that we will know all about everyone and everything at some point in the future. But the clarity that God sees with can be shared now in part.
VPW hid much of his life from others, made certain things known to only a select few. He offered levels of spirituality, of maturity and in so doing offered levels of wrong, of lack of maturity yet all the while insisting that there was no such reality "spiritually". Insisted that to be true and "salted" secrets had to be kept. He wasn't hiding anything from anyone because as we learn in life when it's held up to the light, the shadows that are cast reveal the pockets, the holes, the barricades we put up.
We don't make the rules, the rewards or the punishment, none of this is our idea or self-creation. Looked at from the ground level we see what we see. It isn't till we look with "new eyes" and see what isn't there that we will see the variances and that requires a set of standards with which to see them, free of judgment that requires us to decide right or wrong but informed by the standards of God who sets those standards.
VPW took exception to the idea that one sin required a greater retribution than another - that Christ's sacrifice wasn't complete or whole. On that I would agree, if redemption isn't complete it's not redemption, it's a deal under negotiation. That's all done.
However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet. To accept Christ's finished work requires a response to sin - "repentance". That's a plain fact of scripture. If we jump start our redemption to create a mind set that we're already forgiven we bypass repentance and I would also contend that the bible teaches that as a continuous process throughout our lives - the very lives we continue to live after accepting Christ. Life is more than the time that measures it. We are repentant for the choices we make that are wrong, for the entire life we live, every day and year of it - that required the redemption to begin with and in so doing "follow Christ", staying close to the Redeemer.
I'm not the standard. I'll get what's coming to me in the end. We all will and if that's only x odd years and dust, so be it. If there's more and I believe there is I trust that the bad will be peeled away and what's left will be what little I have to bring to the party, clothed with a New Life. I agree with the New Testament writer who put down that in me, there is nothing good, but if the seed of righteousness can grow within I may end up better going out than coming in.
But for my part, we're all a wad of carbon with a little spit mixed in. Some of us do look better than others but that won't last long from what I've seen.
Comparing VP to the Penn state guy and now the Syracuse guy is fabrication.
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait.
Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their sexual sins, and VP ..... ummmmm, yeah.
Yeah, we can all see exactly how different they are.
Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP?
When it is shining on the threefold children of hell that he trained up to take his place. And when it's on people recovering from the damage in their lives from his and others under his tutlege's sins. And when it's on helping people recover from the negative and far-reaching effects of being in a cult for major portions of their lives.
See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help.
See - it's not about johniam and any blindness, weakness, or hardheartedness he has. No, it couldn't be about that. Let's deflect and talk about rainbows and unicorns. See, don't we all feel much better now?
They should make a movie about Kris' book. Anthony Hopkins (Hannibal Lecter/The apostle Paul) could play VP, George Chiklis (the Commish/the sheild) could play Chris Geer, whoever played the bailiff on Night Court could play LCM, Jessica Alba could play Kris, and Anne Hathaway could play Excathedra. She was not referred to in the book, but she could be another victim. This movie's getting expensive.
We don't need a movie. It was already on an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger. Some cult leader lives on a compound and sexually takes advantage of the women under his authority. The DA Alex gets trapped out there and gets locked up for not understanding where the cult leader is coming from. He repeatedly tries to convince her how great he is. Then Chuck Norris kicks all their @$$es. See - we can get it all done in a 40 minute episode. It's much better than your movie because the cult leader gets roundhouse kicked in the head, while in your movie you pick on all the victims and excuse the cult leader.
Seriously, I think that book was mainly intended to be read by non twiers. It hit me as not as abbrasive as GSC. But if I had no twi experience I'd be reading along and...what???? German shepherds???? These people are Christians???? Yeah, that would be fun to watch someone's reaction while reading that part.
That book was mainly intended to help a very hurt and damaged girl recover from both sexual and spritual abuse. The person that abused her was VP. You see, when people are abused like that, telling the truth about it so that the abusers' sins are exposed helps them heal. People like you that belittle their story, blame them, and enable the abuser actually keep them from healing properly. So you inflict a similar damage on them by your hardheartedness that they originally suffered. Wow, talk about reach, touch and help.
I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me. But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.
The Word is not negated by VP's actions. I really don't understand how you can't seperate out the Word of God from "the Word he (VP) taught". You see, they are different things. Jesus Christ said that no other foundation can a man lay except on him. Jesus Christ had no corruption in his heart like VP. He didn't live a poor witness like VP did. He didn't set up an organization of his followers to repeat, seal, and magnify his sinful ways. No, the Word of God as taught by Jesus Christ had and has much more positive influence. VP was a charlatan. He was used by the adversary. VP, by good words and fair speeches, deceived many. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothes. VP was of the category that Jesus and the apostles and authors of the Bible warned the readers and followers of the faith to avoid.
I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me.
johniam.....I'm not sure if "the word" you learned equates with the scriptures where.. one who oversees must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre. Is the word "must" an absolute? Does "blameless" mean blameless?
You admit that IF you'd heard this stuff in the 70s....before you were indoctrinated and seduced with wierwille-worship....that it would have "concerned" you. IMO....that's an admittance of wrong-doing and you, in your depth of heart, know it. Wierwille just ain't the man many thought he was. He was a chronic sinner and devoured many lives along the way.
Even wierwille admitted it....."I wish I were the man I know to be."
Want to get a little peak into how someone with intimate knowledge of sexual abuse can rationalize the whole thing and turn a blind eye to it? Read the transcript of the phone call between the young boy that “coach” Fine abused and “coach” Fine’s wife.
She knew what a sick bastard her husband was and yet did nothing. In fact, there are now allegations that she had sex with one of the boys once he was no longer a minor.
And as to that WC6 man, even if he'd been working 18-20 or more hours straight for a week, that still wouldn't be an excuse for falling asleep.
(Nor for more humane working hours.)
However, there is no condemnation to those who fall asleep and therefore fall out of windows and die. Those ones can be raised from the dead (Acts 20:9-12).
Twinky, that made me laugh.
This topic makes my blood boil. When I hear of people who take advantage of their age/strength/authority to force others, I think of them as the vilest cowards who should go off and pick on someone their own size and sickness. I suppose they don't want to look in that mirror.
quote: "Be not high-minded, but fear:" Romans 11:20b
Do you realize how Wierwille had to warp and twist and slash the Word of God to make it so this verse could not be applied to HIM?
There may be more conditions on "seated in the heavenlies" than Wierwille and some of his followers want to face.
quote:
However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet.
No "slashing", just reading what's written. Romans 11:13 says for I speak to you gentiles. Does that mean Christians don't have to "respect". No, but whatever "high-mindedness" is found in a Christian didn't prevent them from getting born again. Context.
Our hope is not yet fulfilled, but seated in the heavenlies means we can see a lot of things from God's point of view unviewable to those dead in trespasses and sins. It looks as good to me now as it did 35 years ago when I started going to twig.
quote: John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion.
The discussion was started by someone who thinks VP is worse than the Penn state guy, a pedophile (alleged). I dispute that. You opened the door. Just because I have an alternate definition of "moved boundaries" doesn't violate the discussion.
You call me heartless because I dispute some of your conclusions? Why don't you tell the victims of the Penn state guy and their families that their plight isn't as bad as victims of VP. NOW who is "heartless"?
quote: "Be not high-minded, but fear:" Romans 11:20b
Do you realize how Wierwille had to warp and twist and slash the Word of God to make it so this verse could not be applied to HIM?
There may be more conditions on "seated in the heavenlies" than Wierwille and some of his followers want to face.
quote:
However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet.
No "slashing", just reading what's written. Romans 11:13 says for I speak to you gentiles. Does that mean Christians don't have to "respect". No, but whatever "high-mindedness" is found in a Christian didn't prevent them from getting born again. Context.
Our hope is not yet fulfilled, but seated in the heavenlies means we can see a lot of things from God's point of view unviewable to those dead in trespasses and sins. It looks as good to me now as it did 35 years ago when I started going to twig.
Once again, Mr. Sweet Potato, you have tried to make this discussion about something other than what it is. It's alright to use scripture references if they are relevant to the conversation. Your references are not. (relative to the conversation)
quote: John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion.
The discussion was started by someone who thinks VP is worse than the Penn state guy, a pedophile (alleged). I dispute that. You opened the door. Just because I have an alternate definition of "moved boundaries" doesn't violate the discussion.
1. You know what posters are thinking now? That's quite a skill.
2. I didn't say it "violated" the discussion, I said your creative redefining "does nothing to add..."
You call me heartless because I dispute some of your conclusions? Why don't you tell the victims of the Penn state guy and their families that their plight isn't as bad as victims of VP. NOW who is "heartless"?
1. I did not call you heartless, I simply pointed out that you are the same poster who once said it's O.K. to smack women around if they get too annoying.
2. Why would I need to offer any sort of comparisons to families with whom I have no connection?
3. 'NOW who is "heartless"?'....Well, I suppose we could start with VP Wierwille if you insist on creating a list.
so, in the end of the argument, all of this does not deny or refute the facts.. that twi was a rampant training and breeding ground for sexual predators..
starting from the founder.. the second president, gawd only knows how many on the *trustee* level, cabinet, region, limb staff..
christ.. the only possible *positive* remedy is just to turn off the lights..
It really is tragic how completely VP's vice permeated the ministry. I did not make it to the Corps because the Passing of a Patriarch scandal hit during our interim year and our LC was decent and wise enough to advise us to wait until they got the program fixed. We're still waiting. :-)
But I have had enough conversations with Corps folk and twig coordinators to see that the whole way tree was corrupted by the rotten fruit of VP's lust.
• The Limb I was in had been rocked by a scandal involving allegations of adultery on the part of the LC (not the guy who steered us clear of the Corps; the one who preceded his predecessor-- during the late 70's early 80s.
• My twig coordinator went to a mens' advance and told me they'd taught all the men that the verses in Proverbs that prohibit illicit sexually behavior all apply to women. The clear implication was that it's okay for men to screw around.
• My branch leader told me that, in the Family Corps, the men had been advised to read Penthouse magazine to spice up their sex lives. Can you imagine Penthouse being recommended reading at any accredited Bible College?
• The Corps couple who gave me the PFAL tapes that helped me open my eyes to Weirwille's errors also told me that HQ was "overrun" with seducing spirits. The wife said she'd gone to Craig and told him about it and he just said 'thank you for your honesty'.
• Oh, I almost forgot. My branch coordinator suggested that we show XXX-rated pornography at a believer's bachelor party. He said we should all be spiritually mature enough to handle it. Wonder where he learned that?
I think we see now why TWI collapsed. It was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
I did not make it to the Corps because the Passing of a Patriarch scandal hit during our interim year and our LC was decent and wise enough to advise us to wait until they got the program fixed.
I did not make it into the Corps because..
well, I dunno. I guess because there was no one who could entirely convince me that it was gawd's will..
actually.. it was because I was the little squirrel in twig that nobody noticed..
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WordWolf
vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed o
Steve Lortz
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women? I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was on
chockfull
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait. Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their
johniam
Comparing VP to the Penn state guy and now the Syracuse guy is fabrication.
quote: Maybe it's just me.....but why do I always get the impression that your posts almost always distract from the topic, especially when the spotlight shines on the sins of wierwille?
Just when DOESN'T the spotlight shine on the sins of VP?
quote:
After all these years, johniam.....can you now SEE the evil of wierwille and his predatory ways? Can you possibly admit to yourself that the man was a wolf in sheeps' clothing? Can you shoulder the truth behind the wierwille-worship and the twi-cult?
See. Admit. Shoulder. It's not about VP, it's about Jesus Christ. I'd rather reach, touch, help.
They should make a movie about Kris' book. Anthony Hopkins (Hannibal Lecter/The apostle Paul) could play VP, George Chiklis (the Commish/the sheild) could play Chris Geer, whoever played the bailiff on Night Court could play LCM, Jessica Alba could play Kris, and Anne Hathaway could play Excathedra. She was not referred to in the book, but she could be another victim. This movie's getting expensive.
Seriously, I think that book was mainly intended to be read by non twiers. It hit me as not as abbrasive as GSC. But if I had no twi experience I'd be reading along and...what???? German shepherds???? These people are Christians???? Yeah, that would be fun to watch someone's reaction while reading that part.
I'm not defending all of VPs actions. I do not believe that the word he taught is negated by any of his actions. I gotta admit though, if I'd heard about any of this stuff in the 70s when I first got in the word, it would have concerned me. But, again, the biggest "moved boundary" for me was from dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies. Sorry if you can't relate to that anymore. To me it's very real.
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waysider
John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion. I think it is very clear to everyone who has been posting on this thread what is meant by the expression. It's not about the Bible, it's not about movies or books or listening to VP expound his mangled version of scripture, or your personal experience with glossolalia in session #12. It's about the chronic behavioral patterns of sexual predators. Maybe you, yourself, are having trouble understanding what it means to "move boundaries" because it hits too close to home. Which side of the moved boundaries were you on? Were you the one who moved someone's boundaries or did someone else move your boundaries? Skip the Sunday School lessons, please. I think most of us are familiar with those scriptures.
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Abigail
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OldSkool
As much as I shudder to dignify your trollish posts with a response....here goes
The spotlight not only shines on the sins of VP but the corrupt organization he left behind that still holds control over people to this very day. Not to mention various splinter groups who use his white washed image to sell their materials while the splinter group leaders know first hand of VP's abuse, sexual and otherwise.
Not one of them have come out and publicly admitted the truth about this man, that he was a plagiarist, a rapist, a control freak, a megalomaniac who set himself as the man of God to our day and time, and the list could go on. Once the spotlight shines on the man the works he left behind fall to pieces. Not to mention his "research" is riddled with error.
But I am just summarizing some of what has been public knowledge on GSC and other sites for years.
Keep on keeping on.....
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socks
"dead in trespasses and sins to seated in the heavenlies"
The Word he taught isn't negated by his actions, his like everyone else's are what they are be they good or bad.
It's that Word that needs to be understood clearly. VPW missed the boat on some very important stuff. In order to get to a fully forgiven status through a redemption accomplished by Christ's sacrifice he made all sin - both the condition of man separated from God AND the things that condition produces - the same. "Sin" is sin is sin is sin, to him they were all the same, no better or worse, no gradients, no one better or worse than another in "God's eyes".
Besides being just plain wrong that creates a sonic disconnect so loud it drowns out all biblical logic and reason to the point it turns Christians who hold to it into belly-button staring addicts of feel good grace. After a few 1,000 hits of the stuff they blur off into a glassy brained state of "whatever", losing their grounding to the moral and ethical realities of that "heavenly seat" they have. It's all one big wash of golden na-na land.
Yet - as is obvious in many ex-Wayfers - they're the first to get the most adamant and ignited over perceived slights to their own right to the pearly gates of their PFAL given palace of What'sRightInThisGodForsakenWorld.
Knock the dust of that cap and hit the book and read it for real, john. Yeah, that's a little insulting but only because I think you know in your Real Brain that much of what you write here is conflicted.
I don't have a problem with most of what VPW taught and I'm of the mind that his propensity for being a prideful bag of hot air much of the time didn't hold him down as much as it would have a lot of people. But the sand in the machinery of life is less fear and more the bull-s--t we feed ourselves if make our own present more palatable by waiting for that Big Ol' Heavenly Seat in the Sky that's coming to us.
Oh, this world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through.....but y'know, if we take care of the one that's coming like the one we've got now....
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Steve Lortz
"Be not high-minded, but fear:" Romans 11:20b
Do you realize how Wierwille had to warp and twist and slash the Word of God to make it so this verse could not be applied to HIM?
There may be more conditions on "seated in the heavenlies" than Wierwille and some of his followers want to face.
Love,
Steve
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socks
I'm reminded for some reason that - snooze alert!
Right outta the gate God establishes a level of severity - eat of all the trees but not this one - do that and it's all over.
I would contend that the "tree" was choice - not that choice is wrong, the capacity to choose is inherent in man from the start and is God given. Rather that using that faculty to choose "evil" will bring about destruction. Choose correctly, don't exercise the capacity to choose wrongly. What their choices were is unclear but it's clear that it was important that they have the ability to think for themselves and that it's important to God that man choose right, do right and not "know" evil by choosing it.
Oversimplified? Not if the Genesis record is taken literally - if man chooses evil, wrong, he goes against his instructions. Told that he "won't die" but rather will become like God Himself, he takes that route. Aware that he's done wrong he tries to conceal it.
When we do wrong we try to conceal it, ourselves, we try to hide it.
"Lock box".
Nothing is hidden that can not be known, that will not be known if only to God. With God the secrets of the heart are open, clear. We don't know all and contrary to some interpretations of the bible I don't believe that we will know all about everyone and everything at some point in the future. But the clarity that God sees with can be shared now in part.
VPW hid much of his life from others, made certain things known to only a select few. He offered levels of spirituality, of maturity and in so doing offered levels of wrong, of lack of maturity yet all the while insisting that there was no such reality "spiritually". Insisted that to be true and "salted" secrets had to be kept. He wasn't hiding anything from anyone because as we learn in life when it's held up to the light, the shadows that are cast reveal the pockets, the holes, the barricades we put up.
We don't make the rules, the rewards or the punishment, none of this is our idea or self-creation. Looked at from the ground level we see what we see. It isn't till we look with "new eyes" and see what isn't there that we will see the variances and that requires a set of standards with which to see them, free of judgment that requires us to decide right or wrong but informed by the standards of God who sets those standards.
VPW took exception to the idea that one sin required a greater retribution than another - that Christ's sacrifice wasn't complete or whole. On that I would agree, if redemption isn't complete it's not redemption, it's a deal under negotiation. That's all done.
However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet. To accept Christ's finished work requires a response to sin - "repentance". That's a plain fact of scripture. If we jump start our redemption to create a mind set that we're already forgiven we bypass repentance and I would also contend that the bible teaches that as a continuous process throughout our lives - the very lives we continue to live after accepting Christ. Life is more than the time that measures it. We are repentant for the choices we make that are wrong, for the entire life we live, every day and year of it - that required the redemption to begin with and in so doing "follow Christ", staying close to the Redeemer.
I'm not the standard. I'll get what's coming to me in the end. We all will and if that's only x odd years and dust, so be it. If there's more and I believe there is I trust that the bad will be peeled away and what's left will be what little I have to bring to the party, clothed with a New Life. I agree with the New Testament writer who put down that in me, there is nothing good, but if the seed of righteousness can grow within I may end up better going out than coming in.
But for my part, we're all a wad of carbon with a little spit mixed in. Some of us do look better than others but that won't last long from what I've seen.
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chockfull
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait.
Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their sexual sins, and VP ..... ummmmm, yeah.
Yeah, we can all see exactly how different they are.
When it is shining on the threefold children of hell that he trained up to take his place. And when it's on people recovering from the damage in their lives from his and others under his tutlege's sins. And when it's on helping people recover from the negative and far-reaching effects of being in a cult for major portions of their lives.
See - it's not about johniam and any blindness, weakness, or hardheartedness he has. No, it couldn't be about that. Let's deflect and talk about rainbows and unicorns. See, don't we all feel much better now?
We don't need a movie. It was already on an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger. Some cult leader lives on a compound and sexually takes advantage of the women under his authority. The DA Alex gets trapped out there and gets locked up for not understanding where the cult leader is coming from. He repeatedly tries to convince her how great he is. Then Chuck Norris kicks all their @$$es. See - we can get it all done in a 40 minute episode. It's much better than your movie because the cult leader gets roundhouse kicked in the head, while in your movie you pick on all the victims and excuse the cult leader.
That book was mainly intended to help a very hurt and damaged girl recover from both sexual and spritual abuse. The person that abused her was VP. You see, when people are abused like that, telling the truth about it so that the abusers' sins are exposed helps them heal. People like you that belittle their story, blame them, and enable the abuser actually keep them from healing properly. So you inflict a similar damage on them by your hardheartedness that they originally suffered. Wow, talk about reach, touch and help.
The Word is not negated by VP's actions. I really don't understand how you can't seperate out the Word of God from "the Word he (VP) taught". You see, they are different things. Jesus Christ said that no other foundation can a man lay except on him. Jesus Christ had no corruption in his heart like VP. He didn't live a poor witness like VP did. He didn't set up an organization of his followers to repeat, seal, and magnify his sinful ways. No, the Word of God as taught by Jesus Christ had and has much more positive influence. VP was a charlatan. He was used by the adversary. VP, by good words and fair speeches, deceived many. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothes. VP was of the category that Jesus and the apostles and authors of the Bible warned the readers and followers of the faith to avoid.
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skyrider
johniam.....I'm not sure if "the word" you learned equates with the scriptures where.. one who oversees must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre. Is the word "must" an absolute? Does "blameless" mean blameless?
You admit that IF you'd heard this stuff in the 70s....before you were indoctrinated and seduced with wierwille-worship....that it would have "concerned" you. IMO....that's an admittance of wrong-doing and you, in your depth of heart, know it. Wierwille just ain't the man many thought he was. He was a chronic sinner and devoured many lives along the way.
Even wierwille admitted it....."I wish I were the man I know to be."
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PatAnswer
Want to get a little peak into how someone with intimate knowledge of sexual abuse can rationalize the whole thing and turn a blind eye to it? Read the transcript of the phone call between the young boy that “coach” Fine abused and “coach” Fine’s wife.
She knew what a sick bastard her husband was and yet did nothing. In fact, there are now allegations that she had sex with one of the boys once he was no longer a minor.
It is HERE
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cara
Twinky, that made me laugh.
This topic makes my blood boil. When I hear of people who take advantage of their age/strength/authority to force others, I think of them as the vilest cowards who should go off and pick on someone their own size and sickness. I suppose they don't want to look in that mirror.
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Ham
just when the light does not shine..
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johniam
quote: "Be not high-minded, but fear:" Romans 11:20b
Do you realize how Wierwille had to warp and twist and slash the Word of God to make it so this verse could not be applied to HIM?
There may be more conditions on "seated in the heavenlies" than Wierwille and some of his followers want to face.
quote:
However the fulfillment of that - "seated in the heavenlies" - isn't completed yet.
No "slashing", just reading what's written. Romans 11:13 says for I speak to you gentiles. Does that mean Christians don't have to "respect". No, but whatever "high-mindedness" is found in a Christian didn't prevent them from getting born again. Context.
Our hope is not yet fulfilled, but seated in the heavenlies means we can see a lot of things from God's point of view unviewable to those dead in trespasses and sins. It looks as good to me now as it did 35 years ago when I started going to twig.
quote: John, redefining the intended meaning of "moved boundaries", as it applies to this thread, does nothing to add to the discussion.
The discussion was started by someone who thinks VP is worse than the Penn state guy, a pedophile (alleged). I dispute that. You opened the door. Just because I have an alternate definition of "moved boundaries" doesn't violate the discussion.
You call me heartless because I dispute some of your conclusions? Why don't you tell the victims of the Penn state guy and their families that their plight isn't as bad as victims of VP. NOW who is "heartless"?
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Ham
Your whole argument here seems to rely on some assumption that moving the boundaries resulted in some kind of decision in your favor..
the vicster got money for nothing, chicks for free with his re-assessment on whatever ungodly map he moved the border lines on..
what if.. what if. It all didn't really make any difference.. all of the biblical competition and conniving..
what if you woke up one sunny morning, and found out that everything you believed was just plain wrong..
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Ham
I really don't think any human being can survive that kind of scrutiny without loving one's self..
weird, I know..
maybe it makes sense to someone besides myself..
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Ham
I dunno. So what do you do when the climate moves the lines.. and 3/4 of your property is washed out the delta towards sea..
I've had that happen, in a metaphorical sense..
I know..
1-800 Call Sam..
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waysider
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Ham
so, in the end of the argument, all of this does not deny or refute the facts.. that twi was a rampant training and breeding ground for sexual predators..
starting from the founder.. the second president, gawd only knows how many on the *trustee* level, cabinet, region, limb staff..
christ.. the only possible *positive* remedy is just to turn off the lights..
such an immature organization..
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Jbarrax
It really is tragic how completely VP's vice permeated the ministry. I did not make it to the Corps because the Passing of a Patriarch scandal hit during our interim year and our LC was decent and wise enough to advise us to wait until they got the program fixed. We're still waiting. :-)
But I have had enough conversations with Corps folk and twig coordinators to see that the whole way tree was corrupted by the rotten fruit of VP's lust.
• The Limb I was in had been rocked by a scandal involving allegations of adultery on the part of the LC (not the guy who steered us clear of the Corps; the one who preceded his predecessor-- during the late 70's early 80s.
• My twig coordinator went to a mens' advance and told me they'd taught all the men that the verses in Proverbs that prohibit illicit sexually behavior all apply to women. The clear implication was that it's okay for men to screw around.
• My branch leader told me that, in the Family Corps, the men had been advised to read Penthouse magazine to spice up their sex lives. Can you imagine Penthouse being recommended reading at any accredited Bible College?
• The Corps couple who gave me the PFAL tapes that helped me open my eyes to Weirwille's errors also told me that HQ was "overrun" with seducing spirits. The wife said she'd gone to Craig and told him about it and he just said 'thank you for your honesty'.
• Oh, I almost forgot. My branch coordinator suggested that we show XXX-rated pornography at a believer's bachelor party. He said we should all be spiritually mature enough to handle it. Wonder where he learned that?
I think we see now why TWI collapsed. It was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
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Ham
I did not make it into the Corps because..
well, I dunno. I guess because there was no one who could entirely convince me that it was gawd's will..
actually.. it was because I was the little squirrel in twig that nobody noticed..
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waysider
Johnny Yams said:
The discussion was started by someone who thinks VP is worse than the Penn state guy, a pedophile (alleged). I dispute that.
Took me a while but I'm chuckling now.
Like competing to see whose pig is the filthiest
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Ham
the sad thing here..
ya know..
in my condition I will need help formulating this...
the sad thing is.. the which greatest pig will be what..
there really are some scary thoughts here..
I was only a little piggy.
maybe that was it..
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waysider
VP was a schweinhund. Heh!
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Ham
How filthy do we want to be..
it depends on what one wants to embrace I guess..
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