Or, is it MORE evil to be a sexual predator of young girls.....who commit their lives to God and enter a secluded, religious-campus setting?
Tough question. It's so evil that it disgusts me enough to really not want to consider a choice. But, in my opinion, I feel the one quoted is the worst because of using God and the trust associated with being a man of God to satisfy such horrid lusts.
well.... Never being in the way but reading peoples history with Mr. VPW and his botch hermeneutics and horrible greek and hebrew interpretation..... I told my wife this guy has alter motives to "teaching" the word of God.
What is sad that people I see in and outside of the way (splinter cell groups).... They seem to insert in the All Scripture is God breathed to VPWs scripture is God Breathed. It seems men and women worshiped him.
Yep. With Rosie using scandal to oust Craig and secure her throne, she has had VPW white washed and enshrined within the way international. Splinter groups may not openly reference him as much as in TWI but (in my experiences) their organizations are built on his works nonetheless.
I find sexual predators in general to be blights on society, without qualification.
I find it disturbing when I see someone trying to excuse serial predators.
For example, vpw set up an elaborate structure to facilitate sexual predation. He set up so he could find women to target, he set up places to prey on them, a network of people to conspire with him, and walk them through an innocent arrival somewhere through "exit counseling" them to keep their mouths shut or report they were going to speak up so he could have them excoriated. That's not even addressing setting up doctrine so he could have a "script" to work from they'd already accepted.
Then people come along and make it sound as if vpw walks into his office one
day and a woman's sprawled nekkid across his desk with a flower in her teeth.
"What's he supposed to do?"
Well, even IF such a fantasy thing happened, the MARRIED MINISTER is supposed
to turn and run from his office until he can get one or more people to
accompany him back to his office. This is why Billy Graham has made it a
practice to arrange never to EVER be alone with a woman- not even in an
elevator. It allows him to be faithful to his marriage before God, anf it
allows God's people to trust him to refrain from opportunistic sin.
All of this is different from conspiring to commit sin, making elaborate
arrangements, then carrying them out- which vpw did and taught lcm and
others to do as well, making them two-fold the child of hell he was,
if at all possible.
IMO.......when one stands back and deeply considers TWI, its classes and programs, one sees that it indoctrinated naive followers to serve wierwille and his lusts. Obviously, the corps program was wierwille's orgasmic playground to fulfill his fantasies.
Wierwille seemed to surround himself with women that he could prey upon. By studying body language, probing one with questions, personal background, weaknesses, etc......he knew who to target. Even had to add some elder women to "groom" the corps girl and some alcohol/drugs....to get what he wanted.
And then.......some have confirmed that mrs. moneyhands helped with "exit counseling" for these abused/seduced women.
When I think about twi's directors and inner circle of collaborators...... "having a seared conscience" comes to mind.
Yep. With Rosie using scandal to oust Craig and secure her throne, she has had VPW white washed and enshrined within the way international. Splinter groups may not openly reference him as much as in TWI but (in my experiences) their organizations are built on his works nonetheless.
They get sooooooooooooo upset if you call them a TWI ministry.... They "think" for themselves.
IMO.......when one stands back and deeply considers TWI, its classes and programs, one sees that it indoctrinated naive followers to serve wierwille and his lusts. Obviously, the corps program was wierwille's orgasmic playground to fulfill his fantasies.
Wierwille seemed to surround himself with women that he could prey upon. By studying body language, probing one with questions, personal background, weaknesses, etc......he knew who to target. Even had to add some elder women to "groom" the corps girl and some alcohol/drugs....to get what he wanted.
And then.......some have confirmed that mrs. moneyhands helped with "exit counseling" for these abused/seduced women.
When I think about twi's directors and inner circle of collaborators...... "having a seared conscience" comes to mind.
When vpw went to Haight-Ashbury to hijack the hippies and recruit them,
he was looking for youngsters who'd be cool with casual sex.
twi's own account quoted vpw happy with how casual they were physically
with each other. vpw went to J1m D00p and asked him, a few times, what
it was like to ATTEND AN ORGY (which JD had shown up for once, but left
a few minutes into it and was embarrassed about the whole thing.) After
he convinced JD to describe it to him, vpw told JD that it was ok with
God to PARTICIPATE IN ORGIES, and quoted a verse of Scripture out of
context, then distorted its meaning ridiculously to claim it supported
his doctrine.
When vpw was refining his vague ideas that he stamped into the first
way corps, and tried to make a real program out of what he already
had running and called one, he set up the thing as a sort of
predatory watering hole. He began by requiring each candidate to
write up an autobiography and submit it. When any woman wrote
something about an incident of sexual abuse in her past, vpw set
her autobiography aside, and he targeted her for sexual abuse of
his own when she was on campus. At least two women reported that
they had such an incident in her write-up, and vpw called them
alone and fed them a line about God wanting him to molest them
properly so they'd be healed of whatever happened before. One of
them reported that he had her autobiography in his hand when
she arrived.
Many of us know that those who have suffered abuse in their past
are easier to victimize later. I'm confident, based on his
behaviour, that vpw knew it as well, and counted on it.
We also know he tried to have the women drink with him, and some
of those drinks had drugs in them to knock them out (at least
one reported here about having survived such an encounter
with that pervert.)
And yes, there was a whole framework he set up to find the women
most east to victimize, to arrange to have him alone with them,
and to have someone monitor them afterwards to hush them up,
or have them ostracized and silenced if they showed signs of
preparing to speak up. He also told lcm that he'd HAVE to do
the same-he'd have to "loosen up" regarding extramarital sex.
vpw's greatest accomplishments may revolve around the most
thorough part of twi- his cadre of insiders to facilitate
sexual abuse from vpw to God's precious ones for whom
Christ died.
well.... Never being in the way but reading peoples history with Mr. VPW and his botch hermeneutics and horrible greek and hebrew interpretation..... I told my wife this guy has alter motives to "teaching" the word of God.
What is sad that people I see in and outside of the way (splinter cell groups).... They seem to insert in the All Scripture is God breathed to VPWs scripture is God Breathed. It seems men and women worshiped him.
Whenever I hear someone question whether the word "worshiped" is a bit strong to apply
to how some people saw-and see- vpw, I just remember that they made a graven image of
vpw. There's an ugly metal statue of vpw in the auditorium. And twi sold smaller models
of it for homes, so any twi'er could have a graven image of vpw in their home.
It's also S.O.P. for twi'ers to have photographs of the Board up in their living room.
(The small wallet-sized photos would end up on a shelf or table.)
vpw's greatest accomplishments may revolve around the most
thorough part of twi- his cadre of insiders to facilitate
sexual abuse from vpw to God's precious ones for whom
Christ died.
Yeah.....it took DECADES for wierwille to build his cadre of insiders/enablers to facilitate the sexual abuse from vpw. Just look at a few "players" and red flags.
1) Motorcoach driver was most loyal insider of abuse.....ie Howard Allen.
2) Second-generation bus driver Cgeer becomes wierwille's sold-out supporter.
3) Corps women were invited to travel with wierwille......yet, not corps men.
4) Wierwille's motorcoach was a traveling, away-from-home motel room.
5) With extreme privacy and security, the motorcoach was "a lust-laden lair."
6) Add liquor and drugs and an authoritative figure.....seduction is secured.
7) Did the trustees know? Did Mrs. W. know? Why did NO INSIDER speak out?
8) A 6th corps guy writes paper on adultery.....W@lter Cumm1ns scoffs at it.
9) Region men are needing to "counsel" these abused women....and cover-up.
10) Geer's POP paper misdirects issues and avoids wierwille's sex abuse.
11) Geer's POP paper was crafted to elevate wierwille and discredit Craig/Don/Howard.
12) Splinter groups form.....yet, NO ONE exposes the sex abuse in twi.
13) Martindale keeps on same path that "his father in the Word" taught him.
14) Rivenbark learns of martindale's sex predation.....yet, does NOTHING.
15) Martindale's bodyguard is escorting corps girls to Dayton motel for him.
16) Athletes of the Spirit......a lust-fest of groping and rubbing and dancing.
17) From sources later revealed, Donna highly suspects lcm is in predatory mode.
18) Red Flags.....Red Flags....Everywhere....yet, no insider will break silence.
19) Corps women are being raped and abused and destroyed.....the mog doctrine.
20) Wierwille has been dead for 26 years...and many facillitators are dead, too.
21) The guise of "spiritually-mature" to handle sex was wierwille's master-play.
22) How many, today, are receiving bribe-money to remain silent?
23) Out-of-court settlements have been a pittance to pay for this abuse.
24) How do these past-enablers sleep at night? Rosie? Moneyhands? L1nder?
25) The destruction of precious lives is the legacy of The Way International.
To Wierwille, the target was an IT, not a THOU. Treating a person as "Thou" was to acknowledge and accept the dignity of the particular individual. Then, the other person is important in and or herself or himself as opposed to what purpose he or she fulfilled in relation to me.
There are many ways of preying sexually on people. It's not just rape.
But I'd love to make the punishment fit the crime. Whip the offending parts off. Castration.
Doesn't stop males assaulting with other weapons - bottles and such like. But the risk of losing such an intimate part of oneself might be a deterrent.
Apparently it's a routine punishment for sex offenders in Czech Republic (according to Wikipedia).
The "it" factor. Yes. Thinking of people as though they are inanimate things, not humans with feelings and thoughts and dreams. Just a disposable commodity. Wierwille let his slip show when he said, "You can stay (in the Corps) as long as your money holds out." Yet, he was a master of pretending to care. Come to think of it, I guess he warned us of that when he said, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
Yesterday I was cleaning the windows of a Chinese restaurant. When I'm inside the place I can hear the employees talking to each other in whatever Chinese language they speak. But yesterday 2 English words broke the pattern...'Penn State'. Reminded me of that movie 'Revenge of the nerds' when the nerds are looking for a frat house and an Asian man says several words in an Asian language before saying the word 'nerd'!
I see a lot of outrage about the Penn state thing, but it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church? They don't need a motorcoach; they have rectories and private offices. They've had this set up for 1600 years and counting. Who can say how many thousands of times young men and women have been abused and preyed upon by them? Where is the outrage?
The archbishop of STL has said the biggest issue in todays world is the abortion issue. We have terrorism, bad economy, drugs, immigration, and the Catholic church's own issues with sex abuse, but somehow those are back burner to abortion. If the pope did what Penn state has done, there'd be a lot of priests looking for work elsewhere. Could it be that a religion is just a better hiding place than a college?
A local chiropracter in IL has been arrested for improper touching of women customers this week after several complaints. In the late 90s a Detroit Redwings player (Sheldon Kennedy) had to testify against a junior hockey coach who had allegedly molested several teens over a period of years, including Kennedy. The then GM of the Redwings said he didn't like Kennedy before this was revealed; thought he had a bad attitude about authority/adults. Now he could understand.
The damage has been done for the victims. Now they're going to go through the abuse all over again because of media people who care more about promoting themselves as "caring, responsible journalists" than they actually do for the victims.
As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion.
And if I choose to fellowship with a twi spinoff......
I've long had zero patience, zero concern, zero toleration for child molesters. There was a time when such cases never made it to court, having been handled in silence by the men in the victim's family long before. Lawyers and judges have a hard time trying a corpse.
In the Penn State case, it would seem there were no real men to be found. The thing I will never be able to blot from my mind is that young boy in the shower being raped by Coach Sandusky, and then another man walks into the shower area and sees the rape in progress. Both the boy and the coach saw the man, and both knew he had seen what was happening. But the man did nothing to stop it, he just turned and walked out. I will never understand that man. But the thing that will remain forever with me is what that little boy must have thought. For a moment that boy must have thought his savior had arrived. But no. His savior abandoned him, leaving him in the clutches of a monster. That little boy's heartbreak at that moment must have been even more painful than the rape.
".......it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church?"
Maybe you haven't been following the news. There has been plenty of outrage, regarding sexual molestation in the Catholic Church, over the past several years. It's been a mainstay of the news media for quite some time.
"As for VP, he's dead!"
Yes, he's dead. The doctrines, attitudes and practices he fostered, however, live on to this day. That people continue to defend him and revere him, even in his absence, says a lot about the depth of the indoctrination he sowed.
And, now, one of Wierwille's most active (If not the MOST active) collaborators in the whole sex scandal fiasco is facing his own health crisis. So, we are asked to feel sympathy for him. Call me cold, but, I don't think so.
Oh please, Johniam, it's not all about you. Or all about VP.
But you did make this good point:
In the late 90s a Detroit Redwings player (Sheldon Kennedy) had to testify against a junior hockey coach who had allegedly molested several teens over a period of years, including Kennedy. The then GM of the Redwings said he didn't like Kennedy before this was revealed; thought he had a bad attitude about authority/adults. Now he could understand.
Couple that with:
In the Penn State case, it would seem there were no real men to be found. The thing I will never be able to blot from my mind is that young boy in the shower being raped by Coach Sandusky, and then another man walks into the shower area and sees the rape in progress. Both the boy and the coach saw the man, and both knew he had seen what was happening. But the man did nothing to stop it, he just turned and walked out. I will never understand that man. But the thing that will remain forever with me is what that little boy must have thought. For a moment that boy must have thought his savior had arrived. But no. His savior abandoned him, leaving him in the clutches of a monster. That little boy's heartbreak at that moment must have been even more painful than the rape.
That's where compassion for others comes in. We really don't know what has happened in people's lives. That really scratchy and difficult person you know, who rebels against everything ... the attitude stems from something.
I wrote a hard-line comment above about castration; unfortunately, a lot of abusers have themselves been abused, usually as children and continue to exhibit that pattern as adults. (In fact, we've even had this discussion about VPW!) Abusers may need compassion and psych help to overcome their own problems (whether abuse to themselves or something else); but they also don't need to continue to be at large and a danger to others. Many of them are well able to know right from wrong, can function properly, and have excellent strategic, planning, manipulative, and disguise skills. Some even disguise themselves as ministers of light...in more than one religious environment.
And sexual predation is wider than actual assault.
A significant problem today is internet pornography. That - like the man who walked into the shower but did nothing - is consenting to the abuse that takes place. Which makes the viewer just as bad as the perpetrator.
The man who witnessed Sandusky sodomizing the young boy was a graduate assistant---about 22,23 years old at the time...More than likely, he held the coaching staff, and anything affiliated with Penn State football in high regard...To walk in on such a dastardly act was more than shocking, to say the least..I'd like to think I'd know what I'd do in his situation, but never having been, I can't say for sure what I would have done facing such horror and shock...He was the age of many of Wierwille's victims of sexual abuse, where adulation for one's mentors and the moral right path can conflict with eachother...
What he saw, and what the Penn State administrators 'heard' were two different stories according to the Grand Jury report..."Sodomizing" and "horsing around" are not the same thing....There is no excuse IMO, for everybody from Joe Paterno on up the Penn State administrative ladder to not directly find out exactly what the grad assistant "saw"...Sexual abuse allegations are dead serious---you don't take a vague accusation and pass it along to you're superior unless there's some substance to it...Paterno spoke to the eyewitness---he had the first duty to find out exactly what the eyewitness saw...Why report to your superior something you're vague or unsure about?...The eyewitness went to his father first---distraught...Why would his father tell him to 'sugarcoat' what he saw, rather than just tell him to not go to Paterno in the first place?...
Along with the fact that many other victims have been abused by Sandusky after this incident, it's sad to see an icon brought down by not doing the morally right thing, when morality was his supposed calling card...Overall this has been and will continue to be a tragedy of epic proportions....
I see a lot of outrage about the Penn state thing, but it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church? They don't need a motorcoach; they have rectories and private offices. They've had this set up for 1600 years and counting. Who can say how many thousands of times young men and women have been abused and preyed upon by them? Where is the outrage?
The archbishop of STL has said the biggest issue in todays world is the abortion issue. We have terrorism, bad economy, drugs, immigration, and the Catholic church's own issues with sex abuse, but somehow those are back burner to abortion. If the pope did what Penn state has done, there'd be a lot of priests looking for work elsewhere. Could it be that a religion is just a better hiding place than a college?
The damage has been done for the victims. Now they're going to go through the abuse all over again because of media people who care more about promoting themselves as "caring, responsible journalists" than they actually do for the victims.
As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion.
And if I choose to fellowship with a twi spinoff......
Where is the outrage? I believe Massachusetts went so far as to change the statute of limitation laws on certain sex crimes BECAUSE of the Catholic church scandal. Priests were being moved around and hidden and time would run out to prosecute them......where have you been? The outrage here shook the Commonwealth. Priests were prosecuted, Bishops and Cardinals resigned....I think the Globe coverage got a Pulitzer.
VP may be dead, but many of his victims still struggle....where is your outrage over that?
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WordWolf
vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed o
Steve Lortz
Did Wierwille think it was wrong for him to drug and rape young women? I think he knew that general society would consider it to be wrong, but I also think he believed in his own heart that it was on
chockfull
Right. Because the Penn State and Syracuse guys were sexual predators, and VP just used rufees to .... ummmmm, wait. Oh wait, because those guys used their positions of authority to advance their
OldSkool
Tough question. It's so evil that it disgusts me enough to really not want to consider a choice. But, in my opinion, I feel the one quoted is the worst because of using God and the trust associated with being a man of God to satisfy such horrid lusts.
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WordWolf
I find sexual predators in general to be blights on society, without qualification.
I find it disturbing when I see someone trying to excuse serial predators.
For example, vpw set up an elaborate structure to facilitate sexual predation.
He set up so he could find women to target, he set up places to prey on them,
a network of people to conspire with him, and walk them through an innocent
arrival somewhere through "exit counseling" them to keep their mouths shut
or report they were going to speak up so he could have them excoriated.
That's not even addressing setting up doctrine so he could have a "script"
to work from they'd already accepted.
Then people come along and make it sound as if vpw walks into his office one
day and a woman's sprawled nekkid across his desk with a flower in her teeth.
"What's he supposed to do?"
Well, even IF such a fantasy thing happened, the MARRIED MINISTER is supposed
to turn and run from his office until he can get one or more people to
accompany him back to his office. This is why Billy Graham has made it a
practice to arrange never to EVER be alone with a woman- not even in an
elevator. It allows him to be faithful to his marriage before God, anf it
allows God's people to trust him to refrain from opportunistic sin.
All of this is different from conspiring to commit sin, making elaborate
arrangements, then carrying them out- which vpw did and taught lcm and
others to do as well, making them two-fold the child of hell he was,
if at all possible.
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Naten00
well.... Never being in the way but reading peoples history with Mr. VPW and his botch hermeneutics and horrible greek and hebrew interpretation..... I told my wife this guy has alter motives to "teaching" the word of God.
What is sad that people I see in and outside of the way (splinter cell groups).... They seem to insert in the All Scripture is God breathed to VPWs scripture is God Breathed. It seems men and women worshiped him.
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OldSkool
Yep. With Rosie using scandal to oust Craig and secure her throne, she has had VPW white washed and enshrined within the way international. Splinter groups may not openly reference him as much as in TWI but (in my experiences) their organizations are built on his works nonetheless.
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waysider
I'll go with this one.
(And facilitators, such as Rosie, are no less excusable.)
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skyrider
IMO.......when one stands back and deeply considers TWI, its classes and programs, one sees that it indoctrinated naive followers to serve wierwille and his lusts. Obviously, the corps program was wierwille's orgasmic playground to fulfill his fantasies.
Wierwille seemed to surround himself with women that he could prey upon. By studying body language, probing one with questions, personal background, weaknesses, etc......he knew who to target. Even had to add some elder women to "groom" the corps girl and some alcohol/drugs....to get what he wanted.
And then.......some have confirmed that mrs. moneyhands helped with "exit counseling" for these abused/seduced women.
When I think about twi's directors and inner circle of collaborators...... "having a seared conscience" comes to mind.
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Naten00
They get sooooooooooooo upset if you call them a TWI ministry.... They "think" for themselves.
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dabobbada
Nowww.. Class! Let's all remember what Doctor Weirwille taught us:
People don't think, they just think that they think.
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waysider
You know he wasn't a real "Dr.", don't you? ....People just "thought" he was.
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WordWolf
When vpw went to Haight-Ashbury to hijack the hippies and recruit them,
he was looking for youngsters who'd be cool with casual sex.
twi's own account quoted vpw happy with how casual they were physically
with each other. vpw went to J1m D00p and asked him, a few times, what
it was like to ATTEND AN ORGY (which JD had shown up for once, but left
a few minutes into it and was embarrassed about the whole thing.) After
he convinced JD to describe it to him, vpw told JD that it was ok with
God to PARTICIPATE IN ORGIES, and quoted a verse of Scripture out of
context, then distorted its meaning ridiculously to claim it supported
his doctrine.
When vpw was refining his vague ideas that he stamped into the first
way corps, and tried to make a real program out of what he already
had running and called one, he set up the thing as a sort of
predatory watering hole. He began by requiring each candidate to
write up an autobiography and submit it. When any woman wrote
something about an incident of sexual abuse in her past, vpw set
her autobiography aside, and he targeted her for sexual abuse of
his own when she was on campus. At least two women reported that
they had such an incident in her write-up, and vpw called them
alone and fed them a line about God wanting him to molest them
properly so they'd be healed of whatever happened before. One of
them reported that he had her autobiography in his hand when
she arrived.
Many of us know that those who have suffered abuse in their past
are easier to victimize later. I'm confident, based on his
behaviour, that vpw knew it as well, and counted on it.
We also know he tried to have the women drink with him, and some
of those drinks had drugs in them to knock them out (at least
one reported here about having survived such an encounter
with that pervert.)
And yes, there was a whole framework he set up to find the women
most east to victimize, to arrange to have him alone with them,
and to have someone monitor them afterwards to hush them up,
or have them ostracized and silenced if they showed signs of
preparing to speak up. He also told lcm that he'd HAVE to do
the same-he'd have to "loosen up" regarding extramarital sex.
vpw's greatest accomplishments may revolve around the most
thorough part of twi- his cadre of insiders to facilitate
sexual abuse from vpw to God's precious ones for whom
Christ died.
Whenever I hear someone question whether the word "worshiped" is a bit strong to apply
to how some people saw-and see- vpw, I just remember that they made a graven image of
vpw. There's an ugly metal statue of vpw in the auditorium. And twi sold smaller models
of it for homes, so any twi'er could have a graven image of vpw in their home.
It's also S.O.P. for twi'ers to have photographs of the Board up in their living room.
(The small wallet-sized photos would end up on a shelf or table.)
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skyrider
Yeah.....it took DECADES for wierwille to build his cadre of insiders/enablers to facilitate the sexual abuse from vpw. Just look at a few "players" and red flags.
1) Motorcoach driver was most loyal insider of abuse.....ie Howard Allen.
2) Second-generation bus driver Cgeer becomes wierwille's sold-out supporter.
3) Corps women were invited to travel with wierwille......yet, not corps men.
4) Wierwille's motorcoach was a traveling, away-from-home motel room.
5) With extreme privacy and security, the motorcoach was "a lust-laden lair."
6) Add liquor and drugs and an authoritative figure.....seduction is secured.
7) Did the trustees know? Did Mrs. W. know? Why did NO INSIDER speak out?
8) A 6th corps guy writes paper on adultery.....W@lter Cumm1ns scoffs at it.
9) Region men are needing to "counsel" these abused women....and cover-up.
10) Geer's POP paper misdirects issues and avoids wierwille's sex abuse.
11) Geer's POP paper was crafted to elevate wierwille and discredit Craig/Don/Howard.
12) Splinter groups form.....yet, NO ONE exposes the sex abuse in twi.
13) Martindale keeps on same path that "his father in the Word" taught him.
14) Rivenbark learns of martindale's sex predation.....yet, does NOTHING.
15) Martindale's bodyguard is escorting corps girls to Dayton motel for him.
16) Athletes of the Spirit......a lust-fest of groping and rubbing and dancing.
17) From sources later revealed, Donna highly suspects lcm is in predatory mode.
18) Red Flags.....Red Flags....Everywhere....yet, no insider will break silence.
19) Corps women are being raped and abused and destroyed.....the mog doctrine.
20) Wierwille has been dead for 26 years...and many facillitators are dead, too.
21) The guise of "spiritually-mature" to handle sex was wierwille's master-play.
22) How many, today, are receiving bribe-money to remain silent?
23) Out-of-court settlements have been a pittance to pay for this abuse.
24) How do these past-enablers sleep at night? Rosie? Moneyhands? L1nder?
25) The destruction of precious lives is the legacy of The Way International.
Sexual Predation is EVIL.
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Rocky
yes, it is. Targeting children, regardless of gender, is using and abusing vulnerable people.
Martin Buber (Hebrew: מרטין בובר; February 8, 1878 – June 13, 1965) was an Austrian-born Jewish philosopher best known for his philosophy of dialogue, a form of religious existentialism centered on the distinction between the I-Thou relationship and the I-It relationship.
To Wierwille, the target was an IT, not a THOU. Treating a person as "Thou" was to acknowledge and accept the dignity of the particular individual. Then, the other person is important in and or herself or himself as opposed to what purpose he or she fulfilled in relation to me.
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Twinky
There are many ways of preying sexually on people. It's not just rape.
But I'd love to make the punishment fit the crime. Whip the offending parts off. Castration.
Doesn't stop males assaulting with other weapons - bottles and such like. But the risk of losing such an intimate part of oneself might be a deterrent.
Apparently it's a routine punishment for sex offenders in Czech Republic (according to Wikipedia).
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waysider
The "it" factor. Yes. Thinking of people as though they are inanimate things, not humans with feelings and thoughts and dreams. Just a disposable commodity. Wierwille let his slip show when he said, "You can stay (in the Corps) as long as your money holds out." Yet, he was a master of pretending to care. Come to think of it, I guess he warned us of that when he said, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
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johniam
Yesterday I was cleaning the windows of a Chinese restaurant. When I'm inside the place I can hear the employees talking to each other in whatever Chinese language they speak. But yesterday 2 English words broke the pattern...'Penn State'. Reminded me of that movie 'Revenge of the nerds' when the nerds are looking for a frat house and an Asian man says several words in an Asian language before saying the word 'nerd'!
I see a lot of outrage about the Penn state thing, but it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church? They don't need a motorcoach; they have rectories and private offices. They've had this set up for 1600 years and counting. Who can say how many thousands of times young men and women have been abused and preyed upon by them? Where is the outrage?
The archbishop of STL has said the biggest issue in todays world is the abortion issue. We have terrorism, bad economy, drugs, immigration, and the Catholic church's own issues with sex abuse, but somehow those are back burner to abortion. If the pope did what Penn state has done, there'd be a lot of priests looking for work elsewhere. Could it be that a religion is just a better hiding place than a college?
A local chiropracter in IL has been arrested for improper touching of women customers this week after several complaints. In the late 90s a Detroit Redwings player (Sheldon Kennedy) had to testify against a junior hockey coach who had allegedly molested several teens over a period of years, including Kennedy. The then GM of the Redwings said he didn't like Kennedy before this was revealed; thought he had a bad attitude about authority/adults. Now he could understand.
The damage has been done for the victims. Now they're going to go through the abuse all over again because of media people who care more about promoting themselves as "caring, responsible journalists" than they actually do for the victims.
As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion.
And if I choose to fellowship with a twi spinoff......
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OperaBuff
I've long had zero patience, zero concern, zero toleration for child molesters. There was a time when such cases never made it to court, having been handled in silence by the men in the victim's family long before. Lawyers and judges have a hard time trying a corpse.
In the Penn State case, it would seem there were no real men to be found. The thing I will never be able to blot from my mind is that young boy in the shower being raped by Coach Sandusky, and then another man walks into the shower area and sees the rape in progress. Both the boy and the coach saw the man, and both knew he had seen what was happening. But the man did nothing to stop it, he just turned and walked out. I will never understand that man. But the thing that will remain forever with me is what that little boy must have thought. For a moment that boy must have thought his savior had arrived. But no. His savior abandoned him, leaving him in the clutches of a monster. That little boy's heartbreak at that moment must have been even more painful than the rape.
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waysider
".......it makes me wonder where is the outrage about the Catholic church?"
Maybe you haven't been following the news. There has been plenty of outrage, regarding sexual molestation in the Catholic Church, over the past several years. It's been a mainstay of the news media for quite some time.
"As for VP, he's dead!"
Yes, he's dead. The doctrines, attitudes and practices he fostered, however, live on to this day. That people continue to defend him and revere him, even in his absence, says a lot about the depth of the indoctrination he sowed.
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OldSkool
So 1600 years and counting would mean the vast majority of offender in the catholic church are dead as well, yet you bring them up.
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waysider
And, now, one of Wierwille's most active (If not the MOST active) collaborators in the whole sex scandal fiasco is facing his own health crisis. So, we are asked to feel sympathy for him. Call me cold, but, I don't think so.
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Twinky
Oh please, Johniam, it's not all about you. Or all about VP.
But you did make this good point:
Couple that with:
That's where compassion for others comes in. We really don't know what has happened in people's lives. That really scratchy and difficult person you know, who rebels against everything ... the attitude stems from something.
I wrote a hard-line comment above about castration; unfortunately, a lot of abusers have themselves been abused, usually as children and continue to exhibit that pattern as adults. (In fact, we've even had this discussion about VPW!) Abusers may need compassion and psych help to overcome their own problems (whether abuse to themselves or something else); but they also don't need to continue to be at large and a danger to others. Many of them are well able to know right from wrong, can function properly, and have excellent strategic, planning, manipulative, and disguise skills. Some even disguise themselves as ministers of light...in more than one religious environment.
And sexual predation is wider than actual assault.
A significant problem today is internet pornography. That - like the man who walked into the shower but did nothing - is consenting to the abuse that takes place. Which makes the viewer just as bad as the perpetrator.
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simonzelotes
The man who witnessed Sandusky sodomizing the young boy was a graduate assistant---about 22,23 years old at the time...More than likely, he held the coaching staff, and anything affiliated with Penn State football in high regard...To walk in on such a dastardly act was more than shocking, to say the least..I'd like to think I'd know what I'd do in his situation, but never having been, I can't say for sure what I would have done facing such horror and shock...He was the age of many of Wierwille's victims of sexual abuse, where adulation for one's mentors and the moral right path can conflict with eachother...
What he saw, and what the Penn State administrators 'heard' were two different stories according to the Grand Jury report..."Sodomizing" and "horsing around" are not the same thing....There is no excuse IMO, for everybody from Joe Paterno on up the Penn State administrative ladder to not directly find out exactly what the grad assistant "saw"...Sexual abuse allegations are dead serious---you don't take a vague accusation and pass it along to you're superior unless there's some substance to it...Paterno spoke to the eyewitness---he had the first duty to find out exactly what the eyewitness saw...Why report to your superior something you're vague or unsure about?...The eyewitness went to his father first---distraught...Why would his father tell him to 'sugarcoat' what he saw, rather than just tell him to not go to Paterno in the first place?...
Along with the fact that many other victims have been abused by Sandusky after this incident, it's sad to see an icon brought down by not doing the morally right thing, when morality was his supposed calling card...Overall this has been and will continue to be a tragedy of epic proportions....
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Rejoice
does anyone know WHAT drugs were used, and where did he get them??? Or from whom???
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geisha779
Where is the outrage? I believe Massachusetts went so far as to change the statute of limitation laws on certain sex crimes BECAUSE of the Catholic church scandal. Priests were being moved around and hidden and time would run out to prosecute them......where have you been? The outrage here shook the Commonwealth. Priests were prosecuted, Bishops and Cardinals resigned....I think the Globe coverage got a Pulitzer.
VP may be dead, but many of his victims still struggle....where is your outrage over that?
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Ham
V-pig might be dead, but most if not all of his enablers are still alive..
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