I picked up a now old computer.. it was a primitive one which ran DOS 2 from ram.
Maybe it was Dos 2.11 or something..
but it would run a stinking terminal text program, and I was the first mobile packet station in Midland county, to make a digital exchange with W8QOI. This guy was (is) cool..
There are a handful of folks who still use Morse Code as a form of communication..
When I was a teen, I was a member of my local Southern Baptist church. Their tithe went to paying the salary of our minister, a custodian, a secretary, etc. The rest went to the Southern Baptist Convention.
Then about the time I was a senior in high school it came out that most of our money had gone to South America where it had been supporting revolutionaries there. An investigation about the killings of missionaries showed that it was our tithe money that had paid for their weapons.
I know all about the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches.
Galen I am sorry to hear about your experience. I grew up in my Christian life in different denominations. I also served under a pastor for the local homeless. He was supported by a number of different churches of different denominations. Being a missionary myself and being supported by different denominations and knowing many people in them. What happened is not status quo. I have a hard time seeing you find it ok with what the leadership did in TWI (Lets be honest TWI is like a national church denomination with its own beliefs) in many instances and then in this instance with this one Church or denomination you discredit them. It just seems very biased in your reasoning.
I found wonderful truths about God while I was first attending a twig.
I am also curious what wonderful truths you found while in TWI. I am not wanting to get into doctrine.... I am just having a hard time seeing how you can trust your sources knowing that VPW had no Greek and Hebrew then to have lied about moody correspondence courses.... How can you follow or regularly attend such a group founded by lies?
What would you get differently than any other bible study... Most of my studies we go into the greek and look at history and context.... My wife (not married at the time) was surprised when she went into studies outside of The Way to see they look at the same stuff like greek, context, history ect. just ending up with a different result you could say.
When I went to bible college I learned many new truths about God not just through my professors but just on my own biblical research (I loved debating my professors). How I was taken back about the Christmas story... My mom always informed me he was born between Sept-Oct.. My mom made sure I knew but there was so much I missed because I didn't read the bible for myself. I found out most of what I believed as a teen was me believing what the media told me not what the church did or did not tell me (I wasn't really going to my church, I was more interested in the ladies). I don't know if that is your experience or not.
I guess I am just confused and maybe you can clear some stuff up for me.
naten in some ways i think you would make a great wayfer
I don't know how to take this..... Doing my own independent research apart from what I was taught in school I thought would disqualify me as a wayfer.... Or am I wrong? Did I miss understand the meaning of what you are saying?
..... Doing my own independent research apart from what I was taught in school I thought would disqualify me as a wayfer.... Or am I wrong? Did I miss understand the meaning of what you are saying?
That would make you the IDEAL wayfer, in most twigs I have been in.
Yes there are the robots that read from the blue-book, or green-book, or brown-book, or magazine, etc. Not all wayfers do any form of research, and some twigs will be entirely make of the robots. But every class offered encourages each individual to do their own Independent research.
When I got into The Way there was a emphasis on each person doing their own independent research. That was what got me 'hooked', it was the encouragement for each person to do his/her own study. As has been discussed many times on these forum, the majority of wayfers never did any themselves. Which is why there are the robots.
I could go to sea with a pre-determined topic of study [My Dw and I having both decided on the topic]. Me with my handy KJV, Strong's Exhaustive, a Brown-Driver-Briggs, and my Dw with hers. 3 1/2 months later after I had surfaced and returned home; we could compare notes and be amazingly like-minded on what we had learned. We did that routine seventeen times [which is how many submarine patrols I have made, all of them ranging around 3 1/2 months long].
And every time the twigs we have been in, have been excited to have either or both of us to present our notes as 'teachings' in fellowship.
The twig we are in now encourages this. We rotate among us each week, which of us gets to teach. Everytime my Dw or I share a topic it is always some off-the-wall thing that we have worked, and the folks in our twig love it.
If you came along with a seminary background and doing your own independent research, you would be embraced in the twig we attend now.
You would have been embraced in most of the twigs that we have been in [though I openly that not all twigs would embrace this, as folks who do their own research are rare. Regardless of how much it is encouraged most people simply do not do it].
Excie, you don't need to pick on Naten. He seems to be asking with genuineness.
Part of what I learned growing up was to put things into my own words - own expressions. Showed I understood what I'd been taught.
Tried that with a section of the Blue Book. You'd have thought I was speaking in Martian, for the "I don't understand" expressions on the faces of the TC and some of the others.
Other places, stuff I'd worked for myself was received with interest. Think it all depended on how legalistic the TC was - how much s/he (though they were all "he") was prepared to adhere to the party line. Which would depend in part on how much he himself had been mentally beaten by TWI, and when. Corps raised under LCM and especially after his "toe the line" letter - toed the line. Older pre-LCM Corps allowed much more mental freedom until they themselves got reeled in.
So, Naten...have you been to a fellowship yet? And if so, what did you think of it?
That would make you the IDEAL wayfer, in most twigs I have been in.
Yes there are the robots that read from the blue-book, or green-book, or brown-book, or magazine, etc. Not all wayfers do any form of research, and some twigs will be entirely make of the robots. But every class offered encourages each individual to do their own Independent research.
The one caveat you didn't mention here was TWI's definition of research - meaning to "re-search" out the "tremendous truths" that have already been searched out. Genuine research where you are permitted to arrive at a different conclusion? Not so much. In fact, looking at the history of TWI's "Research Department" is enlightening in this respect. Originally put together to help establish VPW's works, and to help put the effort and legwork into topics he couldn't do himself (like JCPS, JCOP), it grew under his presidency. Charlene / Penworks who posts here was part of that team, albeit more towards the end. Then the next president, LCM, pretty much decimated that department. Everyone was fired. There were 2 guys that helped him when he was doing his classes (W@yne Cl@pp, and J0n N3ssle). Both were fired / slandered, and went on to be key personnel in splinter groups. Today there is one guy who does it part time, and what he does basically consists of investigating what RFR tells him to and reports back. TWI is absolutely not going to consider any new research presented by any member. One example of this is the debt policy. I personally know of a handful of people who have researched that topic and presented it to TWI leadership. What was the response? RFR saying "oh, we're not studying that right now". And then over the course of 2-3 years after that each one of those individuals was demoted, fired, slandered. EVERY one. Pretty much a similar pattern to the John Schoenh3it adultery paper.
"encourages each individual to do their own Independant research". Yeah, that's rich.
When I got into The Way there was a emphasis on each person doing their own independent research. That was what got me 'hooked', it was the encouragement for each person to do his/her own study. As has been discussed many times on these forum, the majority of wayfers never did any themselves. Which is why there are the robots.
From my perspective the robots are there due to the above functioning and policies of the leadership of TWI. You don't find such robots in churches. The organization is the one with the assembly line for them.
I could go to sea with a pre-determined topic of study [My Dw and I having both decided on the topic]. Me with my handy KJV, Strong's Exhaustive, a Brown-Driver-Briggs, and my Dw with hers. 3 1/2 months later after I had surfaced and returned home; we could compare notes and be amazingly like-minded on what we had learned. We did that routine seventeen times [which is how many submarine patrols I have made, all of them ranging around 3 1/2 months long].
This is pretty admirable for a couple (I'm assuming Dw is your wife). It also is pretty insightful into exactly how you avoided becoming too much of a robot and avoided the wrath of TWI. 17 different 3 1/2 month sub patrols where you were not subject to TWI leadership but only your own conscience. That actually adds up to 5 years. Plus, with the military factor and transition times, it was very hard for any local TWIdiot leader to control you. This is not how it works with 98% of people in TWI.
And every time the twigs we have been in, have been excited to have either or both of us to present our notes as 'teachings' in fellowship.
The twig we are in now encourages this. We rotate among us each week, which of us gets to teach. Everytime my Dw or I share a topic it is always some off-the-wall thing that we have worked, and the folks in our twig love it.
My twigs functioned like that too. Sometimes you can provide insulation against the evil that functions in the org. But it eventually catches up. Or eventually you have to open your eyes to it. Or consider that your good heart and actions are being used to promulgate evil.
If you came along with a seminary background and doing your own independent research, you would be embraced in the twig we attend now.
You would have been embraced in most of the twigs that we have been in [though I openly that not all twigs would embrace this, as folks who do their own research are rare. Regardless of how much it is encouraged most people simply do not do it].
If Naten came along with a seminary background, did his own independent research, taught it in twigs, and talked about it amongst the leadership in TWI, over time there would be friction built up between him and the leadership of TWI. This would result in him being disciplined, and if he did not change, being cast out. This has been proven too many times over to dispute.
Although the world you live in seems really nice too.
I would just like to add a footnote to Chockfull's excellent post. When Chockfull discussed people being "cast out, fired, slandered" that means exactly what it says. Most of the people he mentioned or referred to had been faithful followers of TWI for decades, and overnight, they were gone, baby, gone. Then, whoever was the prez at that time would throw a screaming conniption fit about their "lack of salt, unfaithfulness to The Word, slothfulness, stupidity, disloyalty to the leader", whatever came to the twisted mind of the screaming slanderer. Afterward, no one who wished to avoid the same fate would dare to acknowledge that hapless soul's existence, would snub them, hang up on their phone calls, cross the street to avoid walking on the same side as the outcast. This was called "marking out and avoiding" that person. It was total ostracizing. It broke up marriages and families.
The trickle-down effect was also in play. Some of the folks here, through no fault of their own other than to ask their home fellowship coordinator or branch coordinator an innocent question, were given the bum's rush, and NOT ONE PERSON FROM TWI, WHERE THEY HAD SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS OF SERVICE AND TO WHOM THEY HAD GIVEN THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF ABUNDANT SHARING, WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR EXISTENCE ON THIS EARTH. NEVER! People who had done anything and everything to benefit their friends, their brothers and sisters in Christ, found the same "brothers and sisters" never speaking to them, no Happy Household Holiday card, no answering the phone or reading their mail. They were considered dead by the ministry and the faithful followers of The Way. Probably the main reason was fear of suffering the same fate, and the paragraph below should explain why:
Our last branch leader, a young man who worshipped the second president of TWI and emulated him a lot, once taught that "at the moment you leave the Household of The Way, whether of your own volition or whether WE decide you are unworthy of the privilege of fellowshipping with us, at that very moment the Spirit within you dies; and shortly thereafter, your physical body shall die also, because it is impossible to exist outside of the household of faith."
So, that's why I say RUN LIKE HELL IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
PS: I've been accused of the sin of harboring bitterness against the leadership of TWI. Not so. I've forgiven them. I've forgiven my former friends. But, to paraphrase The Who: I WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!
I would just like to add a footnote to Chockfull's excellent post. When Chockfull discussed people being "cast out, fired, slandered" that means exactly what it says. Most of the people he mentioned or referred to had been faithful followers of TWI for decades, and overnight, they were gone, baby, gone. Then, whoever was the prez at that time would throw a screaming conniption fit about their "lack of salt, unfaithfulness to The Word, slothfulness, stupidity, disloyalty to the leader", whatever came to the twisted mind of the screaming slanderer. Afterward, no one who wished to avoid the same fate would dare to acknowledge that hapless soul's existence, would snub them, hang up on their phone calls, cross the street to avoid walking on the same side as the outcast. This was called "marking out and avoiding" that person. It was total ostracizing. It broke up marriages and families.
Thanks for the persepective WG.
Now some will say with the modern days and demise of the 2nd prez this doesn't happen any more and it's a "kinder, gentler ministry". The truth of this is that yes, you will no longer hear screaming fits on the STS or screaming fits on a Corps teaching. Under RFR, that doesn't happen any more. All teachers on public forums are properly medicated and calm. However, the end results and actions still DO happen. People are "cast out, fired, slandered" still in this very day and time. BOD members when questioned about "so and so" will not disclose any information. Is this better? I guess it's a matter of perspective. Yes it's better not to hear a fool yelling during meetings that were supposed to be for teaching / learning. But the same knife in the back carried out by a sugary sweet North Carolina accent person and her underlings is no less evil. In fact, it's probably more evil. Because the package on the outside says sugar, but what's on the inside is still a $%^& sandwich. Now it has more of a Mafia flavored goon squad feel to it. And nobody will garner up enough gonads to throw the witch over the wall so to speak.
Just one small recent example. Read through the thread on the Hirschf3ld thing. A young guy had visions of making lots of money as an investor, and a bunch of people to invest. He didn't have creds, moved money around, and in effect ended up enacting a Ponzi scheme. RFR went on a warpath over this, as it's little Donna's sister that lost money, and basically cast out most of a whole state over it. OldSkool has recent tales. Others as well.
No, we are talking bad news. We are talking corruption at the top permeating down. Now you may have some local guy being real quiet and yessing the directives to death while providing some insulation for people locally. But that is very rare, and they will be driven off.
What was most disconcerting to me was friends suddenly disappearing as if swallowed by quicksand, only faster. No explanation, no "Joe Schmo decided to pack up and leave." Or, "Suzy Smith wasn't listening and obeying, taught something the MOG says is not to be taught, questioned the color Mr. Limb Leader wants his kitchen painted," whatever, and we had to kick them out.
It was just as if they'd suddenly died, only no body and no funeral.
Excathedral I think it is very important for everyone to research on there own and come to their own conclusions. I am trying to figure you a few things... some of it can be in my response to Galen
Galen.... As I understand that is your experience with people in TWI.... That however is not my own.... When in conversations with people in TWI they speak down to me and tell me that seminary and bible colleges is just a bunch of junk. They also tell me that they are the ONLY ones who read the greek, look at context and so on.... They do not respect my input and roll their eye's if I come with a rebuttal to there "teaching" me in our conversation that stumps them. Every single person who has come to talk to me about Christianity from the Way comes not to have a conversation with me but tries to teach me right off the bat and many times "teaching" me something I already know. For instance "Hey, did you know that the bible doesn't say there were 3 kings" Then to start a lecture on how that is true and that VPW has all the answers. That is my experience.
Now my wife tells me not everyone in the way is like that. This is my issue. I was hoping for some type of agreement with my wife from someone who is not with the way any longer as she is on this forum concerning the fellowships. So figured I could get some positive comments that would allow me to feel more comfortable going to a fellowship than going to be ridiculed and disrespected as most people from the way teach me because I don't fall down to the information they tell me that I see as incorrect or that I already know.
I understand that I can't go to a fellowship and start a lecture or exegesis on the first chapter of John. Then reciting my ummmm conclusion during the teaching time. That is just disrespectful. I just want to understand why people follow him and to know my wifes background. I don't think I would be welcomed at a fellowship.... I just don't. So I understand if since they believe Jesus isn't God and someone starts believing that he is then that person should step down.... It is just the right thing to do. The way goes beyond that it seems to me. As if you stop being friends because of it.
I think Chockfull did an excellent representation of the meaning of the word research. It is invaluable to do it apart from your teachers every person. There should be a respect when you do it yourself even if you come to different conclusions.... I experienced that with my many contacts and dear friends through bible college and now in ministry with other denominations that I work with.... I just don't see it in the way.
Lastly my wife would like to go but she is afraid people will start to think that we will be coming back and that would not be the case. We would just be visiting. She knows most of the people around in The Way in our area. Do you think it matters? Would that be wrong of us to go if there is no idea of us staying? I am just asking questions.... Thanks for the help.
... Lastly my wife would like to go but she is afraid people will start to think that we will be coming back and that would not be the case. We would just be visiting. She knows most of the people around in The Way in our area. Do you think it matters?
... Would that be wrong of us to go if there is no idea of us staying?
... I am just asking questions.... Thanks for the help.
I do not think that it would matter.
I do not think that it would be 'wrong' in any manner to go to a fellowship when your motive is not to re-join. Your just curious and want to check it out. I see no harm on that.
In my history, I have been kicked out three times; and each time I soon transferred to a different area. Afterwards each time when I approached a new twig, I was welcomed. There was always a few questions about where I had been in twigs before and which classes I had taken. But never did anyone ask me any details about why I had been booted out.
I 're-entered' twigs in Virginia, and in Washington and here in Maine. Now I also did a few transfers where I was happily attending twig before my transfer, and made smooth transitions to new twigs in the new areas. Thinking back, I do not recall there honestly being any difference. When approaching a twig in a new area, I do not think that anyone there will really cares 'why' you left the previous twig.
A few weeks ago I was at a dinner, and they got to talking about new 'pins' they have. Ten-year pins, twenty-year pins, thirty-year pins, etc. Our Region Co said to me that since I had been in and out many times, if I sat down with a calendar and figured out how many years I had spent 'in' that I could then ask for an appropriate pin from him. I do not feel that having been out is seen as any kind of stigma.
If you want to go back fine, it you do not want to go back fine. They would be happy to see you, regardless of the circumstances.
In my history, I have been kicked out three times; and each time I soon transferred to a different area. Afterwards each time when I approached a new twig, I was welcomed. There was always a few questions about where I had been in twigs before and which classes I had taken. But never did anyone ask me any details about why I had been booted out.
You've been kicked out three times, and you're still going back? WOW. First, why would you do that? Wouldn't you learn after being shunned three times that there is something wrong with the group? How can you possibly talk about the "acceptance" of twigs with your background? Second, regarding the logistics - most don't have this luxury. For example, for most people if they were kicked out in an area, the dumb@$$ leader that kicked them out would be around to ensure they could NOT approach a new twig to be welcomed back. The fact you're in the military afforded you recourse where normal TWI followers have none.
If you want to go back fine, it you do not want to go back fine. They would be happy to see you, regardless of the circumstances.
Because everyone is welcome at the Way? Really?
It seems like a really nice world you have constructed for yourself. But it's nowhere near a real one.
When in conversations with people in TWI they speak down to me and tell me that seminary and bible colleges is just a bunch of junk. They also tell me that they are the ONLY ones who read the greek, look at context and so on.... They do not respect my input and roll their eye's if I come with a rebuttal to there "teaching" me in our conversation that stumps them. Every single person who has come to talk to me about Christianity from the Way comes not to have a conversation with me but tries to teach me right off the bat and many times "teaching" me something I already know.
Wayfers can be very good at talking AT you and scarcely pausing for breath; not looking at you, but just coming out with their spiel. They will talk to you about being meek and ready to receive and they are the epitome of not being meek to anything other than Way teaching.
Dialogue is meaningless. They only understand monologue and manipulation.
I understand that I can't go to a fellowship and start a lecture or exegesis on the first chapter of John. Then reciting my ummmm conclusion during the teaching time. That is just disrespectful. I just want to understand why people follow him and to know my wifes background. I don't think I would be welcomed at a fellowship.... I just don't.
There should be a respect when you do it [research] yourself even if you come to different conclusions.... I experienced that with my many contacts and dear friends through bible college and now in ministry with other denominations that I work with.... I just don't see it in the way.
Lastly my wife would like to go but she is afraid people will start to think that we will be coming back and that would not be the case. We would just be visiting. She knows most of the people around in The Way in our area. Do you think it matters? Would that be wrong of us to go if there is no idea of us staying? I am just asking questions.... Thanks for the help.
Yes, it would be disrespectful to start pushing your views in an overt and argumentative way. But you can ask questions.
Any other fellowship in any other denomination would probably be delighted if you'd visit. Wayfers tend to see you not as a visitor but as a prospect for their Class.
Your wife might find the Wayfers she knows would start marking and avoiding her if she went to "visit" and didn't stay. How important is that to her? It may depend on how mature the Wayfers are in your area, and what they've been through themselves. Just because they avoid you (if they do), doesn't mean that you avoid them. You can still greet them if you see them in the street, in the store, at the game. If they back away in fear, just shows how small their pet God is.
Do go, go a few times, stay aware, and tell us how it went.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
12
12
13
13
Popular Days
Nov 3
25
Nov 2
23
Nov 7
18
Nov 10
17
Top Posters In This Topic
Ham 12 posts
waysider 12 posts
chockfull 13 posts
Naten00 13 posts
Popular Days
Nov 3 2011
25 posts
Nov 2 2011
23 posts
Nov 7 2011
18 posts
Nov 10 2011
17 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
If you go - don't leave your critical thinking skills at home. Be kind, be considerate. But don't be a fool.
chockfull
With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around
chockfull
Hahaha. The Facebook "unfriend" feature... Making being shunned by a cult as easy as pressing a button
Ham
This character..
I picked up a now old computer.. it was a primitive one which ran DOS 2 from ram.
Maybe it was Dos 2.11 or something..
but it would run a stinking terminal text program, and I was the first mobile packet station in Midland county, to make a digital exchange with W8QOI. This guy was (is) cool..
There are a handful of folks who still use Morse Code as a form of communication..
I hope you can meet me, somewhere..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: Most organizations with a "success"
rate like that would be horrified, and would halt and completely examine every inch of their
program to see where the failures were.
Would they? Enron had a "success rate" didn't they? Oops. Your selective cynicism can be very funny.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
WordWolf -
Just to clear up a misunderstanding, I am not a Knight Templar.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
naten in some ways i think you would make a great wayfer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
I don't know how to take this..... Doing my own independent research apart from what I was taught in school I thought would disqualify me as a wayfer.... Or am I wrong? Did I miss understand the meaning of what you are saying?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
too much research all smartie pants
no heart
sorry -- from a damaged wayfer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
you seem to be most interested in your own voice
not unlike many people here
i'm sorry if i'm mistaken
see, for me, research and education is not my priority
but that's me -- i could be way off base
in fact, you should probably just ignore me
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
That would make you the IDEAL wayfer, in most twigs I have been in.
Yes there are the robots that read from the blue-book, or green-book, or brown-book, or magazine, etc. Not all wayfers do any form of research, and some twigs will be entirely make of the robots. But every class offered encourages each individual to do their own Independent research.
When I got into The Way there was a emphasis on each person doing their own independent research. That was what got me 'hooked', it was the encouragement for each person to do his/her own study. As has been discussed many times on these forum, the majority of wayfers never did any themselves. Which is why there are the robots.
I could go to sea with a pre-determined topic of study [My Dw and I having both decided on the topic]. Me with my handy KJV, Strong's Exhaustive, a Brown-Driver-Briggs, and my Dw with hers. 3 1/2 months later after I had surfaced and returned home; we could compare notes and be amazingly like-minded on what we had learned. We did that routine seventeen times [which is how many submarine patrols I have made, all of them ranging around 3 1/2 months long].
And every time the twigs we have been in, have been excited to have either or both of us to present our notes as 'teachings' in fellowship.
The twig we are in now encourages this. We rotate among us each week, which of us gets to teach. Everytime my Dw or I share a topic it is always some off-the-wall thing that we have worked, and the folks in our twig love it.
If you came along with a seminary background and doing your own independent research, you would be embraced in the twig we attend now.
You would have been embraced in most of the twigs that we have been in [though I openly that not all twigs would embrace this, as folks who do their own research are rare. Regardless of how much it is encouraged most people simply do not do it].
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Excie, you don't need to pick on Naten. He seems to be asking with genuineness.
Part of what I learned growing up was to put things into my own words - own expressions. Showed I understood what I'd been taught.
Tried that with a section of the Blue Book. You'd have thought I was speaking in Martian, for the "I don't understand" expressions on the faces of the TC and some of the others.
Other places, stuff I'd worked for myself was received with interest. Think it all depended on how legalistic the TC was - how much s/he (though they were all "he") was prepared to adhere to the party line. Which would depend in part on how much he himself had been mentally beaten by TWI, and when. Corps raised under LCM and especially after his "toe the line" letter - toed the line. Older pre-LCM Corps allowed much more mental freedom until they themselves got reeled in.
So, Naten...have you been to a fellowship yet? And if so, what did you think of it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'll address the glaring errors here in turn.
However, I'd like to thank John for making an observation that I wouldn't
have expected him to.
When your supporters are likening your organization to ENRON,
you KNOW your reputation for corruption and low morals is set.
So, I agree with John that ENRON and TWI should be mentioned in the same category.
Nice one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I can pretty much tell I've got a successful post, whenever Johniam feels the need
to misdirect people from it and pretend he can't read what's written. The first thing that makes
it so obvious is that he refuses to post with the markers so you can read what he's quoting
from. This allows him to remove things from their context, which makes it easier to lie about
what they were saying.
Here's the marker for the post he quoted:
(You can read it for yourself.)
Here's what it said in part:
" An organization spends YEARS on each person in their leadership training program.
By your own admission, MOST of those who COMPLETED the training and were considered success
stories and sent on assignment were "ARSEHOLES." (Most people would say "grossly-incompetent leaders"
or something similar.) If MOST of the "successes" of a program meant to produce TRAINED LEADERS
instead all became TRAINED ARSEHOLES, what does that say about the program?
Most people would call such a program a colossal FAILURE. Most organizations with a "success"
rate like that would be horrified, and would halt and completely examine every inch of their
program to see where the failures were. twi instead just kept moving things along. If someone
had the money together, they were able to enter a program that has been proven to produce
leaders who are grossly incompetent, By your own admission.
What CREDIBLE organization would consider such an irresponsible course of action?"
Here was Johniam's reply:
"Would they? Enron had a "success rate" didn't they? Oops. Your selective cynicism can be very funny."
So, I clearly pointed out that twi's way corps program has been described by a different twi
SUPPORTER as having been a multi-year program for training leaders that, as he said it,
produced "ARSEHOLES." How can an organization run a leadership training program that runs for
4 years and ends that time mostly with "ARSEHOLES"? Only if it's a poor excuse for an organization,
one that is inept and doesn't actually CARE about the people that are supposed to be led, let alone
the people taught to lead. This becomes a bit more obvious when it's seen that the only real
part run by professionals is on SALES. (vpw arranged for someone to teach Dale Carnegie's
sales techniques without paying Carnegie, which, of course is a violation of copyright and
illegal, but typical of vpw.)
To bring in Johniam's comment into the thing he was replying to...
What LEADERSHIP TRAINING PROGRAM has ENRON been running? What was the "success rate" of
ENRON's LEADERSHIP TRAINING PROGRAM? As John puts it, Enron obviously had or has some sort
of LEADERSHIP TRAINING PROGRAM with a questionable "success rate" that can be compared to twi's
"success rate" for their program-which mostly produces "arseholes" (to hear a twi SUPPORTER
say it.) Looks like the only truly relevant part of John's reply was "Oops". His selective
reading is sad, but remarkably PREDICTABLE.
However,
the blatant corruption of twi,
the lies to their own people of twi,
the criminal actions by those at the top of twi-
NONE OF WHICH I WAS ACTUALLY STRESSING-
those DO mean that ENRON and TWI are both worthy of being considered
equally corrupt and wickedly deceitful.
twi's Board has all the morals of a wickedly deceitful Board running a group like ENRON.
So, bringing Enron into the discussion actually IS relevant,
despite them having nothing to do with posts discussing LEADERSHIP TRAINING PROGRAMS
and how twi's fails miserably to benefit its people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The one caveat you didn't mention here was TWI's definition of research - meaning to "re-search" out the "tremendous truths" that have already been searched out. Genuine research where you are permitted to arrive at a different conclusion? Not so much. In fact, looking at the history of TWI's "Research Department" is enlightening in this respect. Originally put together to help establish VPW's works, and to help put the effort and legwork into topics he couldn't do himself (like JCPS, JCOP), it grew under his presidency. Charlene / Penworks who posts here was part of that team, albeit more towards the end. Then the next president, LCM, pretty much decimated that department. Everyone was fired. There were 2 guys that helped him when he was doing his classes (W@yne Cl@pp, and J0n N3ssle). Both were fired / slandered, and went on to be key personnel in splinter groups. Today there is one guy who does it part time, and what he does basically consists of investigating what RFR tells him to and reports back. TWI is absolutely not going to consider any new research presented by any member. One example of this is the debt policy. I personally know of a handful of people who have researched that topic and presented it to TWI leadership. What was the response? RFR saying "oh, we're not studying that right now". And then over the course of 2-3 years after that each one of those individuals was demoted, fired, slandered. EVERY one. Pretty much a similar pattern to the John Schoenh3it adultery paper.
"encourages each individual to do their own Independant research". Yeah, that's rich.
From my perspective the robots are there due to the above functioning and policies of the leadership of TWI. You don't find such robots in churches. The organization is the one with the assembly line for them.
This is pretty admirable for a couple (I'm assuming Dw is your wife). It also is pretty insightful into exactly how you avoided becoming too much of a robot and avoided the wrath of TWI. 17 different 3 1/2 month sub patrols where you were not subject to TWI leadership but only your own conscience. That actually adds up to 5 years. Plus, with the military factor and transition times, it was very hard for any local TWIdiot leader to control you. This is not how it works with 98% of people in TWI.
My twigs functioned like that too. Sometimes you can provide insulation against the evil that functions in the org. But it eventually catches up. Or eventually you have to open your eyes to it. Or consider that your good heart and actions are being used to promulgate evil.
If Naten came along with a seminary background, did his own independent research, taught it in twigs, and talked about it amongst the leadership in TWI, over time there would be friction built up between him and the leadership of TWI. This would result in him being disciplined, and if he did not change, being cast out. This has been proven too many times over to dispute.
Although the world you live in seems really nice too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
I would just like to add a footnote to Chockfull's excellent post. When Chockfull discussed people being "cast out, fired, slandered" that means exactly what it says. Most of the people he mentioned or referred to had been faithful followers of TWI for decades, and overnight, they were gone, baby, gone. Then, whoever was the prez at that time would throw a screaming conniption fit about their "lack of salt, unfaithfulness to The Word, slothfulness, stupidity, disloyalty to the leader", whatever came to the twisted mind of the screaming slanderer. Afterward, no one who wished to avoid the same fate would dare to acknowledge that hapless soul's existence, would snub them, hang up on their phone calls, cross the street to avoid walking on the same side as the outcast. This was called "marking out and avoiding" that person. It was total ostracizing. It broke up marriages and families.
The trickle-down effect was also in play. Some of the folks here, through no fault of their own other than to ask their home fellowship coordinator or branch coordinator an innocent question, were given the bum's rush, and NOT ONE PERSON FROM TWI, WHERE THEY HAD SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS OF SERVICE AND TO WHOM THEY HAD GIVEN THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF ABUNDANT SHARING, WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR EXISTENCE ON THIS EARTH. NEVER! People who had done anything and everything to benefit their friends, their brothers and sisters in Christ, found the same "brothers and sisters" never speaking to them, no Happy Household Holiday card, no answering the phone or reading their mail. They were considered dead by the ministry and the faithful followers of The Way. Probably the main reason was fear of suffering the same fate, and the paragraph below should explain why:
Our last branch leader, a young man who worshipped the second president of TWI and emulated him a lot, once taught that "at the moment you leave the Household of The Way, whether of your own volition or whether WE decide you are unworthy of the privilege of fellowshipping with us, at that very moment the Spirit within you dies; and shortly thereafter, your physical body shall die also, because it is impossible to exist outside of the household of faith."
So, that's why I say RUN LIKE HELL IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
PS: I've been accused of the sin of harboring bitterness against the leadership of TWI. Not so. I've forgiven them. I've forgiven my former friends. But, to paraphrase The Who: I WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Thanks for the persepective WG.
Now some will say with the modern days and demise of the 2nd prez this doesn't happen any more and it's a "kinder, gentler ministry". The truth of this is that yes, you will no longer hear screaming fits on the STS or screaming fits on a Corps teaching. Under RFR, that doesn't happen any more. All teachers on public forums are properly medicated and calm. However, the end results and actions still DO happen. People are "cast out, fired, slandered" still in this very day and time. BOD members when questioned about "so and so" will not disclose any information. Is this better? I guess it's a matter of perspective. Yes it's better not to hear a fool yelling during meetings that were supposed to be for teaching / learning. But the same knife in the back carried out by a sugary sweet North Carolina accent person and her underlings is no less evil. In fact, it's probably more evil. Because the package on the outside says sugar, but what's on the inside is still a $%^& sandwich. Now it has more of a Mafia flavored goon squad feel to it. And nobody will garner up enough gonads to throw the witch over the wall so to speak.
Just one small recent example. Read through the thread on the Hirschf3ld thing. A young guy had visions of making lots of money as an investor, and a bunch of people to invest. He didn't have creds, moved money around, and in effect ended up enacting a Ponzi scheme. RFR went on a warpath over this, as it's little Donna's sister that lost money, and basically cast out most of a whole state over it. OldSkool has recent tales. Others as well.
No, we are talking bad news. We are talking corruption at the top permeating down. Now you may have some local guy being real quiet and yessing the directives to death while providing some insulation for people locally. But that is very rare, and they will be driven off.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
What was most disconcerting to me was friends suddenly disappearing as if swallowed by quicksand, only faster. No explanation, no "Joe Schmo decided to pack up and leave." Or, "Suzy Smith wasn't listening and obeying, taught something the MOG says is not to be taught, questioned the color Mr. Limb Leader wants his kitchen painted," whatever, and we had to kick them out.
It was just as if they'd suddenly died, only no body and no funeral.
Scary.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
Excathedral I think it is very important for everyone to research on there own and come to their own conclusions. I am trying to figure you a few things... some of it can be in my response to Galen
Galen.... As I understand that is your experience with people in TWI.... That however is not my own.... When in conversations with people in TWI they speak down to me and tell me that seminary and bible colleges is just a bunch of junk. They also tell me that they are the ONLY ones who read the greek, look at context and so on.... They do not respect my input and roll their eye's if I come with a rebuttal to there "teaching" me in our conversation that stumps them. Every single person who has come to talk to me about Christianity from the Way comes not to have a conversation with me but tries to teach me right off the bat and many times "teaching" me something I already know. For instance "Hey, did you know that the bible doesn't say there were 3 kings" Then to start a lecture on how that is true and that VPW has all the answers. That is my experience.
Now my wife tells me not everyone in the way is like that. This is my issue. I was hoping for some type of agreement with my wife from someone who is not with the way any longer as she is on this forum concerning the fellowships. So figured I could get some positive comments that would allow me to feel more comfortable going to a fellowship than going to be ridiculed and disrespected as most people from the way teach me because I don't fall down to the information they tell me that I see as incorrect or that I already know.
I understand that I can't go to a fellowship and start a lecture or exegesis on the first chapter of John. Then reciting my ummmm conclusion during the teaching time. That is just disrespectful. I just want to understand why people follow him and to know my wifes background. I don't think I would be welcomed at a fellowship.... I just don't. So I understand if since they believe Jesus isn't God and someone starts believing that he is then that person should step down.... It is just the right thing to do. The way goes beyond that it seems to me. As if you stop being friends because of it.
I think Chockfull did an excellent representation of the meaning of the word research. It is invaluable to do it apart from your teachers every person. There should be a respect when you do it yourself even if you come to different conclusions.... I experienced that with my many contacts and dear friends through bible college and now in ministry with other denominations that I work with.... I just don't see it in the way.
Lastly my wife would like to go but she is afraid people will start to think that we will be coming back and that would not be the case. We would just be visiting. She knows most of the people around in The Way in our area. Do you think it matters? Would that be wrong of us to go if there is no idea of us staying? I am just asking questions.... Thanks for the help.
Edited by Naten00Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i'm sorry naten please accept my apology
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
Apology accepted.... It is hard to see peoples heart through typed characters on a computer screen... I do it all the time :).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
I do not think that it would matter.
I do not think that it would be 'wrong' in any manner to go to a fellowship when your motive is not to re-join. Your just curious and want to check it out. I see no harm on that.
In my history, I have been kicked out three times; and each time I soon transferred to a different area. Afterwards each time when I approached a new twig, I was welcomed. There was always a few questions about where I had been in twigs before and which classes I had taken. But never did anyone ask me any details about why I had been booted out.
I 're-entered' twigs in Virginia, and in Washington and here in Maine. Now I also did a few transfers where I was happily attending twig before my transfer, and made smooth transitions to new twigs in the new areas. Thinking back, I do not recall there honestly being any difference. When approaching a twig in a new area, I do not think that anyone there will really cares 'why' you left the previous twig.
A few weeks ago I was at a dinner, and they got to talking about new 'pins' they have. Ten-year pins, twenty-year pins, thirty-year pins, etc. Our Region Co said to me that since I had been in and out many times, if I sat down with a calendar and figured out how many years I had spent 'in' that I could then ask for an appropriate pin from him. I do not feel that having been out is seen as any kind of stigma.
If you want to go back fine, it you do not want to go back fine. They would be happy to see you, regardless of the circumstances.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
You're always welcome at The Way....Until we kick you out
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
You've been kicked out three times, and you're still going back? WOW. First, why would you do that? Wouldn't you learn after being shunned three times that there is something wrong with the group? How can you possibly talk about the "acceptance" of twigs with your background? Second, regarding the logistics - most don't have this luxury. For example, for most people if they were kicked out in an area, the dumb@$$ leader that kicked them out would be around to ensure they could NOT approach a new twig to be welcomed back. The fact you're in the military afforded you recourse where normal TWI followers have none.
Because everyone is welcome at the Way? Really?
It seems like a really nice world you have constructed for yourself. But it's nowhere near a real one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Wayfers can be very good at talking AT you and scarcely pausing for breath; not looking at you, but just coming out with their spiel. They will talk to you about being meek and ready to receive and they are the epitome of not being meek to anything other than Way teaching.
Dialogue is meaningless. They only understand monologue and manipulation.
Yes, it would be disrespectful to start pushing your views in an overt and argumentative way. But you can ask questions.
Any other fellowship in any other denomination would probably be delighted if you'd visit. Wayfers tend to see you not as a visitor but as a prospect for their Class.
Your wife might find the Wayfers she knows would start marking and avoiding her if she went to "visit" and didn't stay. How important is that to her? It may depend on how mature the Wayfers are in your area, and what they've been through themselves. Just because they avoid you (if they do), doesn't mean that you avoid them. You can still greet them if you see them in the street, in the store, at the game. If they back away in fear, just shows how small their pet God is.
Do go, go a few times, stay aware, and tell us how it went.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Naten00
I can't stop laughing..... you guys crazy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.