There are (at minimum) 2 themes in Jeremiah. God's judgment and God's renewal or reformation through that judgment.
My own overall understanding of scripture, the Bible, is that God's ultimate judgment and purposes won't ultimately separate the good ones from the bad ones, punish the bad ones for eternity because they made choices against Him and reward the good ones because they made good choices. This has nothing to do with whether that "makes sense" or not or seems just to me. I'm not the one determining what is or isn't just in the Big Picture if God is truly "sovereign" so from that standpoint I just want to understand what's going on, if I can.
Man tends to look at this life as all there is, even when man believes in an eternity and a God, as Christians do. A lot of religious thought interprets the Bible's words from a me-centric position - this life is all there is that serves God's purposes in man and man has oh, whatever - 80 - 90 years to get his cards right and get a hand that will take the pot and in a lot of that kind of thought the hand man is dealt is loaded by God beforehand so man is either going to be a goat or a sheep, depending on what God gives him. For the loser it's pretty much just a "thank you for playing" and a boot into the Pit. Forever. Winners get the scoop of up the pot, get the trip, the money and lots of parting gifts.
Man observes, discovers, learns and scribes out an ever changing schemata of what he learns but has no impact on the universe at large. Our own planet to an extent, yes. We could blow it up I guess or do whatever we come up with to it or with it. At best we care for it and make use of it, and our own lives. But we can't change the universe or have a significant impact on what's going on throughout the universe we see through hard scrabbling effort and what might appear to some future generations as tape and wire. We always look back and marvel at what we've learned but if we look ahead we become wistful children, lost in the wonder of it all and then go on to our next Great Adventure.
Can we "thwart" the eternal purposes of a God who designs and creates? Can we truly oppose it or Him on any demonstrable level? Like petulant children we can cross our arms and say "No!" and we can kick our stuff around the room. What does that mean other than we learned a new word? I guess I'm just thinking that within the relationship of man with God trust is inherent, we have no other choice than to trust when push comes to shove. Less that God knows what he's doing and more that we need to learn what we're doing and in the relationship we can bring who and what we are, as is, and join the process.
If God is truly "sovereign" and all of life were part of His plan kinda deal, what's in the Bible can be understood to say that as with the potter and the clay, the clay can be reformed to come out the way the potter wants it. The clay doesn't get tossed out for a new lump, the clay is worked with over time, again and again, until the result is right.
Why not make it right to begin with, I ask? Clay being what it is and the potter's method being what it is, the process is one that requires work.
There is a lot of "it is what it is" to this line of thought - it assumes that there's a will, a logos, that God has that's at the core of all of this. Why that? Why at the outset, this way? I simply couldn't say.
I could say however that it's well within the means of a just, merciful and righteous God to turn all to good, to have a plan and a process that will in the end produce a final product out of it all that is a final masterpiece, so to speak. What we do, what others do in this life that's wrong, bad, anti-God, will be done away with and all, everything and everyone, will ultimately have no other choice to see and make than to recognize that God is Good and perfect.
What about "the devil?" I don't know. No idea. I see less of the "devil" than I ever did and more of the mind of man and it's capacity for both good and bad, in this life. The devil will have to speak for himself.
I don't get mad at God. I get mad at people and circumstances, but not at God. As for the devil, the first biblical evidence of a "devil" is in Genesis 3. What is he doing? He is manipulating someone into a bad choice. PLUS, once he succeeds in manipulating Eve, he can leave Adam alone. The damage has already been done. He doesn't like to get involved with humans any more than he has to. Jesus said he beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven. Jesus had disrupted the devil's kingdom so much that the devil had to come down on earth and direct traffic for a time. Why do bad things happen?
People aren't perfect. People screw everything up eventually. About 600 years ago everyone believed the world was flat. Many erroneous conclusions were reached about why things happened based on the common belief that the world was flat. Then it was proven that the world was round. Back to the drawing board. In twi everybody believed that believing caused everything. Again, many erroneous conclusions were reached because of that. The funniest one IMO is still the one where whoever was doing all night bless patrol at Emporia wasn't believing sufficiently to prevent a car from jumping the curb and running over plants.
If something bad happens to me for no apparent reason? It could be the devil, it could be just random, it could be my sloppy attention to details in my life. It's not God. It's not because I left twi. It's not because I got too drunk 2 weeks ago. When something like that happens I pray. What a concept. If I'm angry or frustrated I might raise my voice but that doesn't mean I'm angry at God. Even if I did get angry at God, He'd understand, but if I got angry at God I wouldn't be peaceful.
We're all going to die someday if the Lord tarries. This may well be preceded by sickness, infirmity, pain, etc. I don't put much confidence in this life. It's all vanity.
WW: That makes sense. I once read that in the 2nd century BC someone in Egypt proved the world was round. There were sun shelters in the desert that all had the exact same dimensions and he compared 2 of them 25 miles apart on consecutive days in such a way that the sun's shadow's location at sunset was what revealed it. Something like that.
Rather than making excuses for the abject failure of so many scriptural guarantees, unanswered prayers, and an apparent blatant ambivalence on the part of the other Almighty to most all of humanity's plights, maybe it's time to own up to the obvious?
I think false comfort is swell, but eventually it's efficaciousness wears a little thin...
In TWI we were taught never to blame God. We were taught all bad things come about because of the devil. We were taught that ultimately, most of the bad things that happen in life happen because we were somehow "off the Word" or "out of fellowship" and had "stepped outside God's hedge of protection."
In the OT, there were men and women who got angry with God and who even argued with God. Do you ever get mad at God? How do you understand the bad things that have happened in your life now that you are outside TWI?
After almost 17 years out of twi and in other Christian groups (I have been Catholic for the last 15 years) I am coming to accept that God is great in His wisdom and power, glory and righteousness. He has my good at heart and also the good of others. I can see looking back at troubles and torments, grief and suffering I've endured that God is over all and His hand is over me always. He is there and He is a kind and loving God. Period.
The martydom of the 6 million Jews (and Christians) who died at the order of Hitler et al ensured the creation of the nation of Israel as part of the agreements after WWII. Also the subsequent laws of Germany made it the only nation to have Naziism and hatred of Jews illegal. The stories from CoriTen Boom and so many others who lived through and died (such as Anne Frank and Cori Ten-Boom's sister and dad) in WWII have left a legacy of faith and confidence in God's goodness and grace which should not be forgotten or ignored.
Joni Erickson-Tada, as a young Christian, broke her neck swimming. As a paraplegic who learned to paint with her teeth she has championed the disabled and given many who would be without hope in the world for the 40+ years since her accident. God has all these things in His hand and truly His ways are unsearchable and certainly even more intricate and love-ly than the lowly peanut which the Lord told George Washington Carver was small enough for Him to be able to teach George about.
Fanny Crosby, blind from six weeks old, wrote hymns which are precious to many. Her hymns are characterized by simplicity, directness and intense earnestness. Among the most popular are "Safe in the Arms of Jesus," "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour," "Rescue the Perishing," "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross," "The Bright Forever," "Close to Thee," "Saviour, More Than Life to Me," and "I Am Thine, O Lord." Before she died in 1915 she was counted to say, "The first thing I shall ever see is my Lord," Certainly there are no blind, deaf, or crippled people in heaven.
It is most precious to me that God's ways are unsearchable to us, but the Bible promises and experience proves that when we come to him by faith is when He can show and tell us the things we need to see and hear.
In TWI we were taught never to blame God. We were taught all bad things come about because of the devil. We were taught that ultimately, most of the bad things that happen in life happen because we were somehow "off the Word" or "out of fellowship" and had "stepped outside God's hedge of protection."
In the OT, there were men and women who got angry with God and who even argued with God. Do you ever get mad at God? How do you understand the bad things that have happened in your life now that you are outside TWI?
After almost 17 years out of twi and in other Christian groups (I have been Catholic for the last 15 years) I am coming to accept that God is great in His wisdom and power, glory and righteousness. He has my good at heart and also the good of others. I can see looking back at troubles and torments, grief and suffering I've endured that God is over all and His hand is over me always. He is there and He is a kind and loving God. Period.
The martydom of the 6 million Jews (and Christians) who died at the order of Hitler et al ensured the creation of the nation of Israel as part of the agreements after WWII. Also the subsequent laws of Germany made it the only nation to have Naziism and hatred of Jews illegal. The stories from CoriTen Boom and so many others who lived through and died (such as Anne Frank and Cori Ten-Boom's sister and dad) in WWII have left a legacy of faith and confidence in God's goodness and grace which should not be forgotten or ignored.
Joni Erickson-Tada, as a young Christian, broke her neck swimming. As a paraplegic who learned to paint with her teeth she has championed the disabled and given many who would be without hope in the world for the 40+ years since her accident. God has all these things in His hand and truly His ways are unsearchable and certainly even more intricate and love-ly than the lowly peanut which the Lord told George Washington Carver was small enough for Him to be able to teach George about.
Fanny Crosby, blind from six weeks old, wrote hymns which are precious to many. Her hymns are characterized by simplicity, directness and intense earnestness. Among the most popular are "Safe in the Arms of Jesus," "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour," "Rescue the Perishing," "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross," "The Bright Forever," "Close to Thee," "Saviour, More Than Life to Me," and "I Am Thine, O Lord." Before she died in 1915 she was counted to say, "The first thing I shall ever see is my Lord," Certainly there are no blind, deaf, or crippled people in heaven.
It is most precious to me that God's ways are unsearchable to us, but the Bible promises and experience proves that when we come to him by faith is when He can show and tell us the things we need to see and hear.
Sadly, I do tend to get mad at God at times. It generally has little to do with life's circumstances though. One example of what can fuel the fire is threads like this.
I have found through the years that the vast, vast majority of GreaseSpotters are thoughtful, compassionate people honestly seeking truth. Where our searches have led us and what we currently believe is as varied as each individual member. Just have a look at the heartfelt responses to the question in this thread. There is no doubt people here are honestly seeking truth for their lives.
So why is getting to the truth so f'ing difficult???
From my old TWI perspective, if I have acknowledged God's existence, accepted Christ's atonement, got born again, spoke in tounges and tried to live in accordance with biblical precepts, why was I not led away from a corrupt and abusive organization like TWI? Why was the newly created 'spirit' now residing inside me quiet about such matters as sexual abuse by the group's highest ranking members? Why did it take close to a decade to get untangled from that group (if I'm yet truly untangled)? Why did so many people have to get hurt and hurt so deeply? Does God really need rape and other abuses to build someone up?
Outside of TWI but with still somewhat of biblical perspective, my thoughts on this didn't change much. If we're willing seekers of God, why does learning stuff like this take decades? Why are there thousands of so-called Christian denominations if there is only one God, and His Comforter is supposedly leading us to all truth? Why does eternal life (or death) hang on such an ambiguous notion as faith when at best we see through a dark glass spiritually? And what's with that still, small voice? I sometimes find myself in the awkward position of making excuses for God's basic impotence. I just want to scream, "Speak up, Dude!"
I think the world would benefit geometrically with just a little active and unambiguous involvement from its creator. That's something even a mediocre father would do for his children, at least on occasion. Is that not something most people on the planet long for and would welcome? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
So yes, I sometimes get mad at God. But then I remember I'm mostly agnostic these days (or maybe a type of socks 'Chaos Christian'), open a beer and I'm good to go.
I sometimes find myself in the awkward position of making excuses for God's basic impotence. I just want to scream, "Speak up, Dude!"
I think the world would benefit geometrically with just a little active and unambiguous involvement from its creator. That's something even a mediocre father would do for his children, at least on occasion. Is that not something most people on the planet long for and would welcome? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
So yes, I sometimes get mad at God. But then I remember I'm mostly agnostic these days (or maybe a type of socks 'Chaos Christian'), open a beer and I'm good to go.
-JJ
Amen, JJ. :D That sums it up pretty darned well in a nutshell.
Having "thousands" of Christian Denominations is what you would expect from finite creates taking his word and forming opinions of an infinite God.
The reason why people get angry with God is because not that he is an absent father but that the father does not operate at the will of the Children. What is best for us is typically not what we want.... We want the God of the McDonalds age or even the of Chinese buffet.... Pick what we feel like what we want or need then discard the rest in our fast food line of life, spirituality and/or religion. This is based on what feels best to us.
It is the same frustration I get out of the people around me. Even when driving my car. Other people not operating at the same speed the I want to go.
Possibly it is not God but us who defines the boxes that we tell Him to get into.... Let God make the box because he is the one with the Eternal perspective.
This is why faith is necessary... It is impossible for man to see the whole picture. When tragedy strikes we only see our world, not every minute effect of it for the rest of time.
This is what makes us angry at God because He sets the boundaries for everything... Too often we don't like them and just like a Father who sets boundaries or does what may seem to be painful to us we don't take his recommendations by faith because of our desires and feelings we will reject what seems to be illogical.
Having "thousands" of Christian Denominations is what you would expect from finite creates taking his word and forming opinions of an infinite God.
Agreed, but that is exactly the position we have been put in. If that word was unambiguous or the author stepped in to offer some clarity, there'd be a lot less need to develop our own opinions. There'd also be far fewer Christian denominations, fewer requests to unreasonably jump on the faith wagon and, on a more practical note, peace in the Middle East.
Agreed, but that is exactly the position we have been put in. If that word was unambiguous or the author stepped in to offer some clarity, there'd be a lot less need to develop our own opinions. There'd also be far fewer Christian denominations, fewer requests to unreasonably jump on the faith wagon and, on a more practical note, peace in the Middle East.
-JJ
Hi JJ,
The author did step in and He did clarify.....Jesus (God) stepped into time and He made a rather stunning statement with the crucifixion and resurrection. The faith wagon is a trust in Him. God did speak clearly through Jesus Christ...and He is the final word. He is the word in the flesh....and God demonstrated his love in Christ.
He promises peace...even in the Middle East....on His time table. To know Him is to trust Him on all things. He really is worthy of our faith.
Anyway.....
I am not unsympathetic to your frustration or Abi's as I went through something very similar myself. Ironic, coming from a pseudo Christian cult ....one filled to the brim with bible reading.... you would think something might have clicked for me. It didn't happen until I left TWI.
Jesus was MIA in TWI and He is the point of the book. When these questions and frustrations arise....and they do.....I think we were left hanging and empty handed.
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but Geisha bumped it, so I figured I'd respond to the original question; not with anything doctrinally worthwhile, mind you.
Those of you who've seen the Michael Keaton movie Johnny Dangerously will appreciate this statement.
I got mad at God once...once.
Ironically, it involved PFAL, but was not because of a lack of understanding of why bad things happen to good people. The incident occurred out of my deliberations about whether I should take the class. This was back in July 1982. My long time girlfriend Deborah had taken the class, reaped some benefits and was pressuring me relentlessly to do likewise.
I had been saved in high school but was frustrated at my lack of understanding of basic Christian doctrine and inability to preach effectively. I had taken Bible classes at college and only gotten more confused, but really wanted to know God and the TRUTH.
But, being a college liberal in the age of the Moral Majority, I hated the idea of getting involved with a little known Fundamentalist outfit that charged people over $100 to take a Bible class. I was very suspicious of TWI, but could see that Deb had grown. I just couldn't make a decision and couldn't get any space to try to do so quietly and prayerfully cause Deb kept hounding me.
I'm usually pretty easy going, but when I get frustrated, I get angry. And there was nothing more frustrating than this. So one afternoon, while Deb was doing her hard sell routine, I got so frustrated and so angry, that I stormed out of my apartment, raging at God in my mind for putting me in such a position without clear guidance. I lived right across the street from the Marshall campus. I headed toward campus with my mind just raging at God. I was furious, livid, seething.
The next thing I know, I was flat on my back on the grass. I was paralyzed. I felt utterly alone for the first time since before I'd been saved. I was cut off from God somehow. The next thing I became aware of was a...buzzing sensation crawling up my body from my feet toward my head, as if some kind of energy field was slowly enveloping me. As bad as it felt to find myself prone and paralyzed, this was worse. It was just under and trough my skin and moving upward. As it approached my head I got even more panicky, then it started buzzing around my face and was about to seep into my mouth. All the while there was this invisible barrier above me.
It was about this time that Deb caught up and found me on the ground. I shudder to think of what would have happened had she not found me and started praying for me. When she started to pray, the creeping energy field stopped advancing. She touched me and found that I was ice cold--on a hot summer day. She asked me to sit up and of course, I couldn't. So she prayed for me to be given the strength to sit up and I managed to move at last. While she ministered to me, the buzzing slowly subsided and little by little, my physical strength returned as did the feeling of isolation. It took about a half hour for me to be able to stand up and walk back home.
I still don't know exactly what happened that afternoon, but what I took away from the experience is, it's never a good idea to get mad at God. When I try to put it into perspective biblically, this is what comes to mind.
For Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry. (II Samuel 15:23)
Jerry, this is problematic on two levels. First, this either implies that God does bad things to achieve His desired results or, secondly, that one can make sense of the event by simply invoking the "idiom of permission". I don't doubt that this happened to you. I'm just not ready to give it a spiritual explanation.
The only reason I can see why people get angry with the creator is when they discover He (she?) is not what they thought he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be..
The only reason I can see why people get angry with the creator is when they discover He (she?) is not what they thought he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be..
Who defines what he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be? How do we come to know it? There is nothing definitive that I've been able to find. Honestly, I'd welcome an experience such as Jbarrax's if it would actually clarify things and point me to the truth. But alas, it took only a few hours before the spirituality of his experience was challenged.
If what Ham says is true, I suspect there is a lot of anger out there, which might help to explain the massive drops in church attendance over the past several decades.
I've never found myself mad at God, but plenty of times I feel stupid about who He is and what He does. I frequently ponder the big "What's it all about?" question and, believe it or not, sometimes I think I catch a teeny tiny glimpse of an answer. It has to do with eternity, not this life of sorrows.
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socks
Read Jeremiah 18. "The Potter's Wheel".
There are (at minimum) 2 themes in Jeremiah. God's judgment and God's renewal or reformation through that judgment.
My own overall understanding of scripture, the Bible, is that God's ultimate judgment and purposes won't ultimately separate the good ones from the bad ones, punish the bad ones for eternity because they made choices against Him and reward the good ones because they made good choices. This has nothing to do with whether that "makes sense" or not or seems just to me. I'm not the one determining what is or isn't just in the Big Picture if God is truly "sovereign" so from that standpoint I just want to understand what's going on, if I can.
Man tends to look at this life as all there is, even when man believes in an eternity and a God, as Christians do. A lot of religious thought interprets the Bible's words from a me-centric position - this life is all there is that serves God's purposes in man and man has oh, whatever - 80 - 90 years to get his cards right and get a hand that will take the pot and in a lot of that kind of thought the hand man is dealt is loaded by God beforehand so man is either going to be a goat or a sheep, depending on what God gives him. For the loser it's pretty much just a "thank you for playing" and a boot into the Pit. Forever. Winners get the scoop of up the pot, get the trip, the money and lots of parting gifts.
Man observes, discovers, learns and scribes out an ever changing schemata of what he learns but has no impact on the universe at large. Our own planet to an extent, yes. We could blow it up I guess or do whatever we come up with to it or with it. At best we care for it and make use of it, and our own lives. But we can't change the universe or have a significant impact on what's going on throughout the universe we see through hard scrabbling effort and what might appear to some future generations as tape and wire. We always look back and marvel at what we've learned but if we look ahead we become wistful children, lost in the wonder of it all and then go on to our next Great Adventure.
Can we "thwart" the eternal purposes of a God who designs and creates? Can we truly oppose it or Him on any demonstrable level? Like petulant children we can cross our arms and say "No!" and we can kick our stuff around the room. What does that mean other than we learned a new word? I guess I'm just thinking that within the relationship of man with God trust is inherent, we have no other choice than to trust when push comes to shove. Less that God knows what he's doing and more that we need to learn what we're doing and in the relationship we can bring who and what we are, as is, and join the process.
If God is truly "sovereign" and all of life were part of His plan kinda deal, what's in the Bible can be understood to say that as with the potter and the clay, the clay can be reformed to come out the way the potter wants it. The clay doesn't get tossed out for a new lump, the clay is worked with over time, again and again, until the result is right.
Why not make it right to begin with, I ask? Clay being what it is and the potter's method being what it is, the process is one that requires work.
There is a lot of "it is what it is" to this line of thought - it assumes that there's a will, a logos, that God has that's at the core of all of this. Why that? Why at the outset, this way? I simply couldn't say.
I could say however that it's well within the means of a just, merciful and righteous God to turn all to good, to have a plan and a process that will in the end produce a final product out of it all that is a final masterpiece, so to speak. What we do, what others do in this life that's wrong, bad, anti-God, will be done away with and all, everything and everyone, will ultimately have no other choice to see and make than to recognize that God is Good and perfect.
What about "the devil?" I don't know. No idea. I see less of the "devil" than I ever did and more of the mind of man and it's capacity for both good and bad, in this life. The devil will have to speak for himself.
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Ham
I dunno..
the crisis of faith..
as weird as this may sound..
I think people have issues about just being *happy*.
Nothing goes my way anymore..
let's rephrase that.
about 89 percent of whatever it is does not go my way.
in real life that says 11 percent does go my way..
sometimes less..
I'm happy when eight percent goes my way..
there is no crisis. Faith is..
Do I ever get mad at God..
it would make as much sense as getting mad at myself..
sometimes.
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johniam
I don't get mad at God. I get mad at people and circumstances, but not at God. As for the devil, the first biblical evidence of a "devil" is in Genesis 3. What is he doing? He is manipulating someone into a bad choice. PLUS, once he succeeds in manipulating Eve, he can leave Adam alone. The damage has already been done. He doesn't like to get involved with humans any more than he has to. Jesus said he beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven. Jesus had disrupted the devil's kingdom so much that the devil had to come down on earth and direct traffic for a time. Why do bad things happen?
People aren't perfect. People screw everything up eventually. About 600 years ago everyone believed the world was flat. Many erroneous conclusions were reached about why things happened based on the common belief that the world was flat. Then it was proven that the world was round. Back to the drawing board. In twi everybody believed that believing caused everything. Again, many erroneous conclusions were reached because of that. The funniest one IMO is still the one where whoever was doing all night bless patrol at Emporia wasn't believing sufficiently to prevent a car from jumping the curb and running over plants.
If something bad happens to me for no apparent reason? It could be the devil, it could be just random, it could be my sloppy attention to details in my life. It's not God. It's not because I left twi. It's not because I got too drunk 2 weeks ago. When something like that happens I pray. What a concept. If I'm angry or frustrated I might raise my voice but that doesn't mean I'm angry at God. Even if I did get angry at God, He'd understand, but if I got angry at God I wouldn't be peaceful.
We're all going to die someday if the Lord tarries. This may well be preceded by sickness, infirmity, pain, etc. I don't put much confidence in this life. It's all vanity.
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WordWolf
Just a friendly reminder.....
People aren't perfect and sometimes believe things are "facts" or "historical facts" that are not true.
One example is this "everyone believed the world was flat" thing.
I can't speak for uneducated peasants in Europe who never went outside of a 40mile radius their
entire lives. However, the educated definitely knew the world was round. Look up "Eratosthenes"
sometime to see how this was known in THE GREEK EMPIRE in BC years. Sailors all thought it was
obvious, too. They see the horizon every day at sea. The horizon curves. So, it keeps curving and
means the planet is round. Columbus didn't have to convince anyone the world was round. He had to
convince them the round world was small enough he could sail to India by sailing west from Europe
and have enough food to make the trip. Of course, he was wrong. If he hadn't stumbled upon an
unexpected CONTINENT, he would have run out of food and had to turn back or starved.
This hasn't stopped people from teaching errors, making them into cartoons and songs, and so on.
People will let you down sooner or later.
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johniam
WW: That makes sense. I once read that in the 2nd century BC someone in Egypt proved the world was round. There were sun shelters in the desert that all had the exact same dimensions and he compared 2 of them 25 miles apart on consecutive days in such a way that the sun's shadow's location at sunset was what revealed it. Something like that.
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George Aar
Abigail,
I believe Almighty Reason is reaching out to you.
Rather than making excuses for the abject failure of so many scriptural guarantees, unanswered prayers, and an apparent blatant ambivalence on the part of the other Almighty to most all of humanity's plights, maybe it's time to own up to the obvious?
I think false comfort is swell, but eventually it's efficaciousness wears a little thin...
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Kit Sober
After almost 17 years out of twi and in other Christian groups (I have been Catholic for the last 15 years) I am coming to accept that God is great in His wisdom and power, glory and righteousness. He has my good at heart and also the good of others. I can see looking back at troubles and torments, grief and suffering I've endured that God is over all and His hand is over me always. He is there and He is a kind and loving God. Period.
The martydom of the 6 million Jews (and Christians) who died at the order of Hitler et al ensured the creation of the nation of Israel as part of the agreements after WWII. Also the subsequent laws of Germany made it the only nation to have Naziism and hatred of Jews illegal. The stories from CoriTen Boom and so many others who lived through and died (such as Anne Frank and Cori Ten-Boom's sister and dad) in WWII have left a legacy of faith and confidence in God's goodness and grace which should not be forgotten or ignored.
Joni Erickson-Tada, as a young Christian, broke her neck swimming. As a paraplegic who learned to paint with her teeth she has championed the disabled and given many who would be without hope in the world for the 40+ years since her accident. God has all these things in His hand and truly His ways are unsearchable and certainly even more intricate and love-ly than the lowly peanut which the Lord told George Washington Carver was small enough for Him to be able to teach George about.
Fanny Crosby, blind from six weeks old, wrote hymns which are precious to many. Her hymns are characterized by simplicity, directness and intense earnestness. Among the most popular are "Safe in the Arms of Jesus," "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour," "Rescue the Perishing," "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross," "The Bright Forever," "Close to Thee," "Saviour, More Than Life to Me," and "I Am Thine, O Lord." Before she died in 1915 she was counted to say, "The first thing I shall ever see is my Lord," Certainly there are no blind, deaf, or crippled people in heaven.
It is most precious to me that God's ways are unsearchable to us, but the Bible promises and experience proves that when we come to him by faith is when He can show and tell us the things we need to see and hear.
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Kit Sober
After almost 17 years out of twi and in other Christian groups (I have been Catholic for the last 15 years) I am coming to accept that God is great in His wisdom and power, glory and righteousness. He has my good at heart and also the good of others. I can see looking back at troubles and torments, grief and suffering I've endured that God is over all and His hand is over me always. He is there and He is a kind and loving God. Period.
The martydom of the 6 million Jews (and Christians) who died at the order of Hitler et al ensured the creation of the nation of Israel as part of the agreements after WWII. Also the subsequent laws of Germany made it the only nation to have Naziism and hatred of Jews illegal. The stories from CoriTen Boom and so many others who lived through and died (such as Anne Frank and Cori Ten-Boom's sister and dad) in WWII have left a legacy of faith and confidence in God's goodness and grace which should not be forgotten or ignored.
Joni Erickson-Tada, as a young Christian, broke her neck swimming. As a paraplegic who learned to paint with her teeth she has championed the disabled and given many who would be without hope in the world for the 40+ years since her accident. God has all these things in His hand and truly His ways are unsearchable and certainly even more intricate and love-ly than the lowly peanut which the Lord told George Washington Carver was small enough for Him to be able to teach George about.
Fanny Crosby, blind from six weeks old, wrote hymns which are precious to many. Her hymns are characterized by simplicity, directness and intense earnestness. Among the most popular are "Safe in the Arms of Jesus," "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour," "Rescue the Perishing," "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross," "The Bright Forever," "Close to Thee," "Saviour, More Than Life to Me," and "I Am Thine, O Lord." Before she died in 1915 she was counted to say, "The first thing I shall ever see is my Lord," Certainly there are no blind, deaf, or crippled people in heaven.
It is most precious to me that God's ways are unsearchable to us, but the Bible promises and experience proves that when we come to him by faith is when He can show and tell us the things we need to see and hear.
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JumpinJive
Sadly, I do tend to get mad at God at times. It generally has little to do with life's circumstances though. One example of what can fuel the fire is threads like this.
I have found through the years that the vast, vast majority of GreaseSpotters are thoughtful, compassionate people honestly seeking truth. Where our searches have led us and what we currently believe is as varied as each individual member. Just have a look at the heartfelt responses to the question in this thread. There is no doubt people here are honestly seeking truth for their lives.
So why is getting to the truth so f'ing difficult???
From my old TWI perspective, if I have acknowledged God's existence, accepted Christ's atonement, got born again, spoke in tounges and tried to live in accordance with biblical precepts, why was I not led away from a corrupt and abusive organization like TWI? Why was the newly created 'spirit' now residing inside me quiet about such matters as sexual abuse by the group's highest ranking members? Why did it take close to a decade to get untangled from that group (if I'm yet truly untangled)? Why did so many people have to get hurt and hurt so deeply? Does God really need rape and other abuses to build someone up?
Outside of TWI but with still somewhat of biblical perspective, my thoughts on this didn't change much. If we're willing seekers of God, why does learning stuff like this take decades? Why are there thousands of so-called Christian denominations if there is only one God, and His Comforter is supposedly leading us to all truth? Why does eternal life (or death) hang on such an ambiguous notion as faith when at best we see through a dark glass spiritually? And what's with that still, small voice? I sometimes find myself in the awkward position of making excuses for God's basic impotence. I just want to scream, "Speak up, Dude!"
I think the world would benefit geometrically with just a little active and unambiguous involvement from its creator. That's something even a mediocre father would do for his children, at least on occasion. Is that not something most people on the planet long for and would welcome? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
So yes, I sometimes get mad at God. But then I remember I'm mostly agnostic these days (or maybe a type of socks 'Chaos Christian'), open a beer and I'm good to go.
-JJ
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Abigail
Amen, JJ. :D That sums it up pretty darned well in a nutshell.
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Naten00
Having "thousands" of Christian Denominations is what you would expect from finite creates taking his word and forming opinions of an infinite God.
The reason why people get angry with God is because not that he is an absent father but that the father does not operate at the will of the Children. What is best for us is typically not what we want.... We want the God of the McDonalds age or even the of Chinese buffet.... Pick what we feel like what we want or need then discard the rest in our fast food line of life, spirituality and/or religion. This is based on what feels best to us.
It is the same frustration I get out of the people around me. Even when driving my car. Other people not operating at the same speed the I want to go.
Possibly it is not God but us who defines the boxes that we tell Him to get into.... Let God make the box because he is the one with the Eternal perspective.
This is why faith is necessary... It is impossible for man to see the whole picture. When tragedy strikes we only see our world, not every minute effect of it for the rest of time.
This is what makes us angry at God because He sets the boundaries for everything... Too often we don't like them and just like a Father who sets boundaries or does what may seem to be painful to us we don't take his recommendations by faith because of our desires and feelings we will reject what seems to be illogical.
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JumpinJive
Agreed, but that is exactly the position we have been put in. If that word was unambiguous or the author stepped in to offer some clarity, there'd be a lot less need to develop our own opinions. There'd also be far fewer Christian denominations, fewer requests to unreasonably jump on the faith wagon and, on a more practical note, peace in the Middle East.
-JJ
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geisha779
Hi JJ,
The author did step in and He did clarify.....Jesus (God) stepped into time and He made a rather stunning statement with the crucifixion and resurrection. The faith wagon is a trust in Him. God did speak clearly through Jesus Christ...and He is the final word. He is the word in the flesh....and God demonstrated his love in Christ.
He promises peace...even in the Middle East....on His time table. To know Him is to trust Him on all things. He really is worthy of our faith.
Anyway.....
I am not unsympathetic to your frustration or Abi's as I went through something very similar myself. Ironic, coming from a pseudo Christian cult ....one filled to the brim with bible reading.... you would think something might have clicked for me. It didn't happen until I left TWI.
Jesus was MIA in TWI and He is the point of the book. When these questions and frustrations arise....and they do.....I think we were left hanging and empty handed.
Just my experience and opinion.
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Jbarrax
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but Geisha bumped it, so I figured I'd respond to the original question; not with anything doctrinally worthwhile, mind you.
Those of you who've seen the Michael Keaton movie Johnny Dangerously will appreciate this statement.
I got mad at God once...once.
Ironically, it involved PFAL, but was not because of a lack of understanding of why bad things happen to good people. The incident occurred out of my deliberations about whether I should take the class. This was back in July 1982. My long time girlfriend Deborah had taken the class, reaped some benefits and was pressuring me relentlessly to do likewise.
I had been saved in high school but was frustrated at my lack of understanding of basic Christian doctrine and inability to preach effectively. I had taken Bible classes at college and only gotten more confused, but really wanted to know God and the TRUTH.
But, being a college liberal in the age of the Moral Majority, I hated the idea of getting involved with a little known Fundamentalist outfit that charged people over $100 to take a Bible class. I was very suspicious of TWI, but could see that Deb had grown. I just couldn't make a decision and couldn't get any space to try to do so quietly and prayerfully cause Deb kept hounding me.
I'm usually pretty easy going, but when I get frustrated, I get angry. And there was nothing more frustrating than this. So one afternoon, while Deb was doing her hard sell routine, I got so frustrated and so angry, that I stormed out of my apartment, raging at God in my mind for putting me in such a position without clear guidance. I lived right across the street from the Marshall campus. I headed toward campus with my mind just raging at God. I was furious, livid, seething.
The next thing I know, I was flat on my back on the grass. I was paralyzed. I felt utterly alone for the first time since before I'd been saved. I was cut off from God somehow. The next thing I became aware of was a...buzzing sensation crawling up my body from my feet toward my head, as if some kind of energy field was slowly enveloping me. As bad as it felt to find myself prone and paralyzed, this was worse. It was just under and trough my skin and moving upward. As it approached my head I got even more panicky, then it started buzzing around my face and was about to seep into my mouth. All the while there was this invisible barrier above me.
It was about this time that Deb caught up and found me on the ground. I shudder to think of what would have happened had she not found me and started praying for me. When she started to pray, the creeping energy field stopped advancing. She touched me and found that I was ice cold--on a hot summer day. She asked me to sit up and of course, I couldn't. So she prayed for me to be given the strength to sit up and I managed to move at last. While she ministered to me, the buzzing slowly subsided and little by little, my physical strength returned as did the feeling of isolation. It took about a half hour for me to be able to stand up and walk back home.
I still don't know exactly what happened that afternoon, but what I took away from the experience is, it's never a good idea to get mad at God. When I try to put it into perspective biblically, this is what comes to mind.
For Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry. (II Samuel 15:23)
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waysider
Jerry, this is problematic on two levels. First, this either implies that God does bad things to achieve His desired results or, secondly, that one can make sense of the event by simply invoking the "idiom of permission". I don't doubt that this happened to you. I'm just not ready to give it a spiritual explanation.
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Ham
The only reason I can see why people get angry with the creator is when they discover He (she?) is not what they thought he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be..
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JumpinJive
Who defines what he/she/it/them/whatever is supposed to be? How do we come to know it? There is nothing definitive that I've been able to find. Honestly, I'd welcome an experience such as Jbarrax's if it would actually clarify things and point me to the truth. But alas, it took only a few hours before the spirituality of his experience was challenged.
If what Ham says is true, I suspect there is a lot of anger out there, which might help to explain the massive drops in church attendance over the past several decades.
-JJ
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Human without the bean
Honestly? No. I have never got angry with God. Frustrated, maybe, but never angry.
I just don't have it in my nature (thankfully) I guess.. I just don't get that upset very much. (Thankfully)
At points, I have been very direct with God asking him to give me an answer or a sign and I speak very
candidly to him. But its always in reverence.
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OperaBuff
I've never found myself mad at God, but plenty of times I feel stupid about who He is and what He does. I frequently ponder the big "What's it all about?" question and, believe it or not, sometimes I think I catch a teeny tiny glimpse of an answer. It has to do with eternity, not this life of sorrows.
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