But what about when it is really, really bad stuff? The kind of bad stuff that changes the course of your life and throws it completely off track? Does that go into the category of "stuff happens" too? Do you still believe in God Waysider? What about the devi;?
I don't believe there is a loving god. Certainly not a god who demands to be glorified.
I do believe there is a higher being -- whatever being or entity or force that makes a sperm cell swim up a fallopian tube and fertilize an egg (for example). That's the god I believe in and there's nothing "loving" about it.
If I know, for example, a particular work procedure is dangerous but, stubbornly proceed with it anyway, any negative consequences may or may not be entirely attributed to randomness. If, on the other hand, I follow all the correct procedures and an accident still occurs because a series of negative factors coincided in an unprecedented fashion, this would be random. In the first scenario, I must take responsibility for my own choices. The second scenario falls into the "stuff happens" category. Why should I logically blame God for either of these?
I've seen too many amazing things in my life to doubt that God exists. Even the sheer magnitude of nature's wonders and the complexity of the life processes regarding humans and animals leaves me awestruck at times. The devil, on the other hand, I believe is a symbolic, but much needed, representation of mankind's struggle against adversity, not an actual spiritual entity. And, this is why I think that if one can get past the confining concept of innerrancy, whole new dimensions of understanding can be opened.
My own introduction to The Way was a random event. At some point, though, my own decisions, though based on misinformation and deception (date and switch) led me deeper into my involvement with the organization. If I'm angry at anyone, it is probably myself, not God, for allowing myself to be duped.
Okay, I'm with you Waysider. I also believe in God, but do not believe in the Devil. So, lets go with randomness and stuff happens and this brings me full circle to the whole anger at God thing. Why would an all loving God allow random acts of tragedy to occur? Why would God fail to protect someone who believes in Him and believes He will keep them safe?
Oh and Waysider, I'm not talking about protecting someone from TWI. At some point we all drank that Koolaid for various reasons. I'm talking literally about a sudden and unexpected event that could not have been forseen or prevented.
I don't believe there is a loving god. Certainly not a god who demands to be glorified.
I do believe there is a higher being -- whatever being or entity or force that makes a sperm cell swim up a fallopian tube and fertilize an egg (for example). That's the god I believe in and there's nothing "loving" about it.
Soulsearcher, if the God you believe in is not loving, how do you keep from falling into depression and despair? What gives you hope?
Soulsearcher, if the God you believe in is not loving, how do you keep from falling into depression and despair? What gives you hope?
I've had depression and despair for much of my life. I tried God (praying, reading the bible, etc.) but it didn't work. Zoloft and psychotherapy work much better, and I'm not being facetious.
My sister-in-law, a born-again Christian, talks about God all the time. It's apparent to me that what she calls "God", I call luck.
Why would an all loving God allow random acts of tragedy to occur?
I've been asking that question for all of my adult life -- and I've never gotten a good answer.
I may be derailing my own thread. But perhaps this will help explain my questions. I do believe science and religion can mix. I sort of see quantum mechanics as the spiritual side of things and the chaos theory and the physical world we live in.
We are now nearing the end of the Days of Awe and I have really been trying to work my way through some stuff from my past, the specifics of which I do not care to go into. So here is a bit of what I have been reading, that jumpted out at me.
Human consciousness plays a major role in determining reality. There are even respectable scientists who state categorically that things happen because we observe them to happen This is Schrodenginer's Cat. I think there is some validity to it, but I don't buy it as an across the board end all truth.
Those who work in the field of chaos theory and complex systems point out that a small change in a single atom can ripple through the cosmos, effecting major impact on the macrocosm This is how I see human interaction. As we interact with one another we have an effect on the person and that creates a ripple effect. Someone described it to me as a pool table with no holes for the balls. You use the cue ball and hit another ball and it rolls into maybe 3 or 4 more, etc. Human interaction is the same.
Furthermore, this Supreme Consciousness is not to be viewed as some outside force who happened to come across a universe and decided to muck about with it. Rather, that Consciousness is the perpetual origin of all that is. At every moment, all matter and energy is regenerated into being out of the void . . . . . . .So He created a paradox. That's what creating a world out of nothing is all about -- doing the impossible. Creating a world means creating a second reality: The first reality is that there is nothing else but Him. The second reality is that there is a world here that He is sustaining. Both realities are true. In Chabad Chassidut, these two realities are called Daat Elyon and Daat Tachton, literally, the Higher Consciousness and the Lower Consciousness.
At every point in a person's life, s/he will find him/herself exactly at the spot G-d desires this little creature should be at this time. Make whatever choice you want, it doesn't change the ultimate outcome. It only changes one thing: Who's responsible for the outcome? Is this mess all your fault, that you should have to clean it up? Or are you the hero who contained the damage from extending further? Whose side are you on and how hard are you fighting? When we get there, will it be through your efforts, or despite them? Will we have to drag you there, or will you come marching in the front line? You'll go through the circuit, but will you make the best out of each ride, milking every experience for all its got? Will you overcome the darkness in a fell swoop of the sword, or will you roll with it in the dust, fighting it until its very essence is annihilated?
And this is the part that always leaves me banging my head against the wall and being really ....ed off at God. Because if that is true, then everything that happened was what God wanted to have happen. It is another paradox, God is supposed to always get the glory, but mankind is stuck with the blame and responsibility??? How exactly does that work? :)
I do recall being puzzled, surprised, other responses, at what happens - or doesn't.
I was ....ed off that I got laid off from work over 3 nearly 4 years ago - from a job I truly believe was God-given - and only a few months after I'd purchased my first (and only) house in this city that I moved to for the job. How could that happen - that God gives me a great job in a new city - and then just a few months later "He" takes it away??? No, I never thought He took it away - "it's the economy, stoopid!" - and I've NEVER had any debts! - but if it was a bad thing, a lemon, for sure God has turned it into lemonade.
See, on the other hand, I found a great church that has been very healing to me after the battering from TWI - I spent the first few months with tears of thankfulness in very Sunday service - I have found great friends, a social life that's better than I've ever had, and now (after being on the dole [welfare] for 3 years) have set up doing "whatever" for people and don't know when I have ever felt so happy and content at work. It's like a fresh start in a new location. I still have my house and even have managed to reduce the amount of mortgage outstanding.
Godliness with contentment is great gain.....I'm rich!
Usually when something - let's say "less desirable" - happens, I can look at what I myself have done and know it was my own fault. I didn't pay attention and caused an accident on the road; didn't take care and fell off a ladder; took a short cut and the task was a disaster. But that's MY fault, not God's. (Not that these things have happened, but I know I've done stupid things that had the potential to cause very serious problems.)
So no, I don't get angry with God. When things go "wrong," I wonder what better thing is just around the corner (even if it's some years down the line).
It might be different if I had a horrible accident or was struck by some horrible disease or something very unpleasant happened to one of my loved ones. Maybe I would be angry then. But (thank God) that hasn't happened yet.
It might be different if I had a horrible accident or was struck by some horrible disease or something very unpleasant happened to one of my loved ones. Maybe I would be angry then. But (thank God) that hasn't happened yet.
Interestingly, I say "thank God" all the time. And when things are tough I do pray. But I'm not convinced that all my prayers don't amount to much more than me talking to myself.
Abigail, you were posting at the same time I was. Your posts are always thought-provoking.
(off topic) TWI could really have helped us to understand some things better if they’d brought in a rabbi or two to explain Jewish perspectives on things – not thrown Lamsa in our faces.
Anyway…lots to think about in your post.
We’re all going to live each moment, each minute, each hour, each day. We can live it enjoying it, or live it as if it were a burden. As we’re going to live it anyway, what will be our attitude of mind? That’s going to affect a lot of our attitude towards God, a “higher power,” randomness or whatever else we hang our hats on.
Completely but I just noticed that the post I wrote above which was timed for me at 5.32 is quoted by Soul Searcher at 12.32. This board adjusts for local time except when posts are quoted, obviously!
We’re all going to live each moment, each minute, each hour, each day. We can live it enjoying it, or live it as if it were a burden. As we’re going to live it anyway, what will be our attitude of mind? That’s going to affect a lot of our attitude towards God, a “higher power,” randomness or whatever else we hang our hats on.
Is it a choice that we make each day, really? We can control how we behave, but do we really have control over our emotions - other than suppressing them into non-existance like we did in TWI?
Hmmmm - okay, let me take another tact. We know there were women who were sexually abused in TWI. The women came to TWI because they absolutely wanted to know God. They were searching for God and they were beaten or sexually abused instead. How does one reconcile that without at some point becoming at least a little bit ticked off at God??
Interestingly, I say "thank God" all the time. And when things are tough I do pray. But I'm not convinced that all my prayers don't amount to much more than me talking to myself.
Soul Searcher, I often think prayer is more for us than for God. Even if one believes in God differently than you do - if God is all knowing and knows the thoughts of our hearts, He knows our prayers before we do. Prayer is to bring us to a place of peace, it isn't for God's benefit. That's what I think anyway. :)
That place left me in such a state of despair that ... well I'm still here despite them.
And each day was a torment. In the day I longed for the night; in the night I longed for the day. I lost maybe 35lb because deciding what to eat was too difficult (and I'm not fat, only 140lb).
No physical abuse (well not much) but the mental abuse...left me badly damaged.
Strange, it's so much like a bad dream now - did it really happen??? I wasn't mad at God, just utterly full of self-condemnation for being such a failure and disappointment to him. I grovelled. Was ashamed. It took me YEARS to be able to think even slightly straight.
I'd about forgotten that...like a dream, as I said.
I am so thankful now for - well - everything.
Not much bothers me nowadays. In my heart.
The physicals - like the misery of being unemployed and existing on practically nothing - belong some other place. I always had enough.
I have what I call "conversations" in that regard. I guess it's become more or less second nature to me at this point where I accept that some things are in my domain and some are not and understanding the difference is where the discussion occurs so to speak. But I don't feel anger - anger over the fact that life is what it is sometimes but I don't feel a conflict with God that would lead to anger. I have at times though and don't feel bad about it at all - none of this creation or life was my idea so I don't feel bad that I don't get it all the time. If I need to square up in my heart with God, I do. It can take time sometimes.
A lot of religious thought posits that God is sovereign, over everything, controls everything and that everything is part of God's "plan". So when something happens, good or bad, it's credited to "God" who has a "plan" and that there's a purpose related to God in whatever happens. (Or the "Devil" who may affect or intervene. And that man is in the middle more or less, managing and dealing with opposing forces.)
I believe this is inferred in the Bible but in metaphor - giving God credit and standing, "glory", supremacy. But not that God is actually managing everything as a person would, everything all at once.
I see it as God being God and by definition is of course sovereign over all. But that creation is not being controlled atom by atom, everything all the time, by a God who is making decisions about everything.
Like the 'earth' - "be fruitful and multiply" and tend to the planet - It's God's "creation". It's man's domain to work in and live.
As a result I don't get mad at God all that much. The urge to cry out in celebration or complaint about life is human though and I probably do some of both.
Way teaching leads a person to think that God is in neutral (although He has a "will" or logos) and we "operate" His "god given power" to us when we choose to. That will cause a person to be frustrated because everything, lots of things in fact I would suggest MOST things we do based on that kind of thinking are simply not going to happen that way - we'll always be trying harder, again, over and over, blaming someone or something and rounding up or down to make the results we do see fit what we're trying to "do" and how we think it should happen. That'll definitely pi ss someone off, sooner or later.
I've labelled myself a "Chaos Christian" before, by the way. I believe humanity's relationship within itself and with God is so diverse and varigated that it's useless to try and grasp it into some form of repeatable order that can be understood and captured by some dictum of man's faith. "Spiritual serendipity" - live the best I can with the best I know, keep learning and observing life as it's underway.
I think it is in the definition of who God is. Is God all-loving..... Well if he was all loving then what about Justice and Holiness? I would say God is Love but he is not all-loving. Justice must take place but his love prevents him to execute it before the appointed time. Where we all would fail. One of my favorite teachers Dr. Ravi Zacherias says that Christianity is the only religion where love and Justice meet and that is at the cross. If God was just a just God then no Cross needed. If God was only loving then just forgiving and God not needing payment for sin. I would say God is a Holy God.
I was speaking with someone who is now in a splinter group from TWI (I have never been in the way with wife was and her family is). He was appauled that I believed that God would cause harm in order for the good. I asked him about when Jesus in John 9 healed the blind man from whose blind from birth. Jesus said he was blind his whole life for the purpose of being healed. He asked me do I really think God would cause someone to be blind in order for him to be glorified. I said It dose not matter what I think that is what it says. I can accept it or not. Someone could say in this verse God allowed it to happen but you still end up with God being so powerful him allowing it for the purpose of His glory is as if he did it.
What is for my Good? What brings me to the full knowledge of the Truth? Is it really prosperity or is it going through life with all the struggles that come with it and have Jesus fulfill his claim at the end of Matthew "low I will be with you even to the very end of the age".
Honestly I used to be angry at God until I read this verse Ps 115:3 "God is in heaven and he does whatever pleases him". It isn't about me and no amount of believing will correct that. God will do what He will. Unless the bible is false and the creator created me to worship me but that makes no since. It is funny we demand our own creations to worship and glorify us but get angry at God when he demands it out of us. I notice that in myself. In some way I don't think he even demands it. It is just intrinsic to who God is. It won't be should I or will I. It just will happen when we see Him in His total Glory.
Lastly Jesus promised a hard life. Even telling the "rock" Peter that he will have die a painful death in order to glorify God and then says follow me?...sign me up!.... He even said that the rain will fall on the just and unjust alike.... What type of fair is that? Horrible things have happened through abuse and horrible hate in my life but its His walk with me that keeps me going. Through fearing the holy character who He is it do I find undying love and peace.....Now I understand in Proverbs it says the fear of the Lord leads to life and those who have it rest satisfied.
I have what I call "conversations" in that regard. I guess it's become more or less second nature to me at this point where I accept that some things are in my domain and some are not and understanding the difference is where the discussion occurs so to speak. But I don't feel anger - anger over the fact that life is what it is sometimes but I don't feel a conflict with God that would lead to anger. I have at times though and don't feel bad about it at all - none of this creation or life was my idea so I don't feel bad that I don't get it all the time. If I need to square up in my heart with God, I do. It can take time sometimes.
Hi Socks! It would seem, for some things, it can take a very long time to square that up. I don't feel guilty when I get mad at God - I feel what I feel so that part is okay. But at some point, for some things, forgiveness and moving on has to come into play too. A way to be done being angry with God over things. Perhaps that is yet another subtopic in here. :)
A lot of religious thought posits that God is sovereign, over everything, controls everything and that everything is part of God's "plan". So when something happens, good or bad, it's credited to "God" who has a "plan" and that there's a purpose related to God in whatever happens. (Or the "Devil" who may affect or intervene. And that man is in the middle more or less, managing and dealing with opposing forces.)
I believe this is inferred in the Bible but in metaphor - giving God credit and standing, "glory", supremacy. But not that God is actually managing everything as a person would, everything all at once.
I see it as God being God and by definition is of course sovereign over all. But that creation is not being controlled atom by atom, everything all the time, by a God who is making decisions about everything.
That sort of goes to something I was putting together in my thoughts today about the chaos theory and quantum mechanics. Chaos being the little bump or change that has a ripple effect and quantum mechanics being the multitude of possible outcomes. So, perhaps from time to time God gives us a little push or a shove and then it is up to us to pick among the multitude of possible outcomes. That is how there is a Supreme being and free will at the same time?
Like the 'earth' - "be fruitful and multiply" and tend to the planet - It's God's "creation". It's man's domain to work in and live.
As a result I don't get mad at God all that much. The urge to cry out in celebration or complaint about life is human though and I probably do some of both.
Way teaching leads a person to think that God is in neutral (although He has a "will" or logos) and we "operate" His "god given power" to us when we choose to. That will cause a person to be frustrated because everything, lots of things in fact I would suggest MOST things we do based on that kind of thinking are simply not going to happen that way - we'll always be trying harder, again, over and over, blaming someone or something and rounding up or down to make the results we do see fit what we're trying to "do" and how we think it should happen. That'll definitely pi ss someone off, sooner or later.
I've labelled myself a "Chaos Christian" before, by the way. I believe humanity's relationship within itself and with God is so diverse and varigated that it's useless to try and grasp it into some form of repeatable order that can be understood and captured by some dictum of man's faith. "Spiritual serendipity" - live the best I can with the best I know, keep learning and observing life as it's underway.
I think it is in the definition of who God is. Is God all-loving..... Well if he was all loving then what about Justice and Holiness? I would say God is Love but he is not all-loving. Justice must take place but his love prevents him to execute it before the appointed time. Where we all would fail. One of my favorite teachers Dr. Ravi Zacherias says that Christianity is the only religion where love and Justice meet and that is at the cross. If God was just a just God then no Cross needed. If God was only loving then just forgiving and God not needing payment for sin. I would say God is a Holy God.
Hi Naten, nice to meet you. I have to tell you up front, I am not Christian. The only time I ever applied that label to myself was during my years with TWI. I do appreciate your input into this thread, however. Ultimtately, I don't think the labels matter so much. But I say that, because I don't believe Christianity is the only religion where love and justice meet. Just my opinon. :)
I was speaking with someone who is now in a splinter group from TWI (I have never been in the way with wife was and her family is). He was appauled that I believed that God would cause harm in order for the good. I asked him about when Jesus in John 9 healed the blind man from whose blind from birth. Jesus said he was blind his whole life for the purpose of being healed. He asked me do I really think God would cause someone to be blind in order for him to be glorified. I said It dose not matter what I think that is what it says. I can accept it or not. Someone could say in this verse God allowed it to happen but you still end up with God being so powerful him allowing it for the purpose of His glory is as if he did it.
On some level I get that. I have heard similar teachings. I do have a somewhat fundamental problem with the concept that God would allow something bad to happen to someone for his own glory. I think there are other reasons and explanations, although I would freely admit I don't know what they are.
What is for my Good? What brings me to the full knowledge of the Truth? Is it really prosperity or is it going through life with all the struggles that come with it and have Jesus fulfill his claim at the end of Matthew "low I will be with you even to the very end of the age".
Honestly I used to be angry at God until I read this verse Ps 115:3 "God is in heaven and he does whatever pleases him". It isn't about me and no amount of believing will correct that. God will do what He will. Unless the bible is false and the creator created me to worship me but that makes no since. It is funny we demand our own creations to worship and glorify us but get angry at God when he demands it out of us. I notice that in myself. In some way I don't think he even demands it. It is just intrinsic to who God is. It won't be should I or will I. It just will happen when we see Him in His total Glory.
Define believing? Do you mean that in the sense that TWI teaches? I don't believe in TWI's version of believing anymore. I believe in faith. But sometimes life throughs curveballs that make faith difficult as well. Yes, God may very well do what He will. I then must choose how I want to embrace God. Or reject him and search for another? If God is the one who is responsible for it in the first place. Another question within a question - what is God responsible for and what is man responsible for. If someone does something evil to someone else, the man who acted badly is responsible. But, why did God not protect the someone else? And maybe that is yet another question within the question? Does God protect us? Ever? Sometimes? Only occassionally?
Lastly Jesus promised a hard life. Even telling the "rock" Peter that he will have die a painful death in order to glorify God and then says follow me?...sign me up!.... He even said that the rain will fall on the just and unjust alike.... What type of fair is that? Horrible things have happened through abuse and horrible hate in my life but its His walk with me that keeps me going. Through fearing the holy character who He is it do I find undying love and peace.....Now I understand in Proverbs it says the fear of the Lord leads to life and those who have it rest satisfied.
As for me.. I'll have to agree with socks that it's just too huge a universe to grasp it all..
I do think God is love (and just). Heck, I think the very definition of love is God. But then I probably screw the word up doing so. From the Hebrew word 'ahav'. Aleph Bet is the Father, and in the middle is the Hey.. The little guy with his hands waving, come and see! Come and see the Father.. The aleph, strong one of the bet, house. Yeah, well, ignore my rantings.
So I'm mostly convinced God created this universe with love in mind. But at the same time I don't see how God's plan could ever be accomplished without pain and suffering. Maybe that's the chaos. I dunno. I don't think God's will is the pain and suffering. But, as I understand his plan(or my irrational idea of it), since creation, were to create those who would love and care for this earth and take care of one another. But as with the creation of light, comes the possibility of the negative, the darkness. Those who are selfish, unloving, carers only of themselves. And with that we have destiny in our hands to help or destroy. Sometimes we destory while trying to help. I think of while in TWI all those who had a good heart, but ended up hurting others. While those who aim to destroy sometimes help. Yet in the end you have those who lay traps for men/women. And those who aim to rid earth of those traps. All the while I think God desired the earlier to be gone, and maybe assists at times. But I'm weird in that I do think He limits himself, allowing them to destroy themselves till the end. And in the midst, we are stuck with traps laid by men that we fall into.
But back to why.. I dunno.. Why doesn't this loving God keep us out of those traps. At least let us know before we fall in em. Maybe he did. Don't trust man! lol.. I dunno, all the stupid and idiotic things that happen to me, I see where I'm partially responsible. Made terrible choices. Didn't investigate enough. Damnit, I'm just naive, OK! I forget there's those booby traps everywhere. And I get caught. Why should I blame someone else for my own stupidity. But you're right, what about those caught in the 9/11 towers. Or the world wars.. I dunno. Too much death and destruction, can I just leave! As Paul said, I would rather to be out of this flesh and with Christ. But the world needs people to clear these there traps, you know. And death.. No, I don't see it so much an enemy. As a paraphrased Ecclesiastes talks about, those who died are blessed to not have to deal with the evil, yet it was even better had they never lived to see evil (I think, aborted fetuses - those lucky kids)! It's an enemy only in the sense that the world has one less light. Well, for some deaths. But the second death. Yes, I believe in the resurrections and a final death, the final extinguishing of what God didn't want when he created this thing. That enemy, that evil, that death that it all brings.. I can't wait till it's gone!
Why doesn't this loving God keep us out of those traps. At least let us know before we fall in em. Maybe he did. Don't trust man! lol..
Free will - each of us chooses. The magnitude of the diversity in mankind is absolutely beyond comprehension when we consider that a fundamental component of our individual consciousness is that we think and choose and act and accumulate a singular set of memories in consciousness, separate from anyone else. Each of us is non-repeatable and from arrival to departure we define a "me" that isn't shared by anyone else. We may all be part of a big swirling mass of whatever but each of us has a perception of that that requires that we identify our own part in it separately from all others. Joined together, separate instances of consciousness - "Life". Man identifies God that way and if that's been handed down to us correctly there is a "me" to God too - an identity.
I ask the question "why isn't it different?" " Why isn't it better?" Why why why? did God "do" it this way and given the faults and failings we all experience why the @!#!! doesn't He just change it for the "better"?
My own super scientific answer is "because". Because this is it, it is what it is because it is what it's become. Whatever got us here it wasn't completely up to God as we've been able to steer our paths and limited destinies in our own life cycles and here we are. Is there a "perfect" life to be lived? I would say "yes" - but it will be lived in concert with a gazillion other lives being lived - we are us.
We could be better, we could be different, we could exemplify the best each of us knows and learns about ourselves and others. But we don't. We can make conscious effort that works for good or bad.
It would seem that all systems are incomplete in one way or another, even when they're completely successful at what it is they're designed to do - they don't do everything all the time, forever. Humans are like that and within the range of who and what we are we have a limited scope, we can only do so much. So we do "the best we can" and failure is part of the deal. Failure may be the wrong word for it but it's what I'm thinking.
I've given a lot of thought myself also to what exactly "sin" is. A lot of knee jerk answers come up but the answer has to be very very basic to make a difference in such a way that it can be fully realized and understood. I know what the Bible says and what people say but my sense is that the concept of a "redeemer", Christ, is more basic than people doing things wrong and having them forgiven. Not everyone wants to do the wrong thing, to "sin" and if a person knew the right things to do they'd do them -right? We know that simply isn't the case though so it appears to me to come down to a really basic aspect of man and what man is, what I am, that must be accomodated for in this life. Being born wasn't our idea, we didn't start the ball rolling - but now we're here.
Rant #234, Forgot where I was going with this. Sorry!
It would be really interesting to see a totally different perspective on this.
From a Christian in India, Pakistan, Ethopia, Somalia, China.
We're all from fairly similar "western" backgrounds. Our views and understandings are similar.
How do you think you might think about this if you were, say, a Somali Christian who had walked days to find food, who'd watched one or more children die of starvation?
Or you lived in India or Pakistan or some Arab countries, where it's an offense to convert to Christianity?
Would you "get mad" with God, or just accept difficulties as part and parcel of being a Christian? or (at least) a God-believer.
Did Jesus, who was rejected, beaten, abused, laughed at ... get mad with God? We know he spent a lot of time in prayer - talking with his Father. Maybe he "got mad" then. Maybe he asked why these things happened. Leastways, if he did, he got over it and didn't let it affect his dealings with people or doing his Father's will.
And we know from the records in Acts and the epistles that some very bad things happened to early Christians (persecution and murder) and to Paul and his companions. They didn't blame God or get mad at him. They rejoiced, met together, sang songs ...
Some of the Psalms are full of "woe is me, why is this happening?" followed by submission and acknowledgment of God's greatness.
We were never promised an easy time of life. So there will be things that we could "get mad" about.
We were, rather, promised difficulties.
And we were also promised peace, such as the world does not give. Despite the external circumstances.
Not sure that "getting mad" is quite the right response. But asking "WHY?" certainly is.
Is "getting mad" an inappropriate response to adversity? Along with that, is "getting mad" synonymous with "assigning blame"? Maybe getting mad is a healthy response in some situations, while assigning blame is something to be avoided unless the situation requires it..
In TWI we were taught never to blame God. We were taught all bad things come about because of the devil. We were taught that ultimately, most of the bad things that happen in life happen because we were somehow "off the Word" or "out of fellowship" and had "stepped outside God's hedge of protection."
In the OT, there were men and women who got angry with God and who even argued with God. Do you ever get mad at God? How do you understand the bad things that have happened in your life now that you are outside TWI?
I blame God for everything, even the "devil".
Not understanding why things are the way they are,
or why some things happen, is more my case.
Sometimes mad, and maybe disappointed with myself at times.
And sometimes I want to look closer and sometimes I don't want to look,
at why, what and reasons, or whatever factors that can be seen.
Not sure that "getting mad" is quite the right response. But asking "WHY?" certainly is.
It doesn't matter if getting mad is appropriate, or even right. As Socks says, it is what it is. Am I to pretend I don't feel the way I do because it may not be right? I can't, that would be a sin against myself, it would be dishonest within myself.
Asking why. Yes, I do ask why. I desperately want to know why. I guess on some level, this is all a crisis of faith. That I believe there is a God remains true. That I trust that God, that is the crisis of faith perhaps.
When I was a girl, I was not raised with any particular regious beliefs. Despite that, I had this unwavering faith that God looked after me and would keep me safe. Then He didn't. Following that, I spent a number of years living in a very self-destructive manner until I was finally brought to me knees and I begged God to show me the way.
I ended up IN The Way. There we were taught the formula for how to get and maintain God's hedge of protection around us. And I bought it. I bought into it and I found myself married to a man that hurt me in every way possible - physically, sexually, emotionally.
I left. I got of of The Way and out of the marriage. I built a new life once again. But here I am, all of these years later and that childhood event has come back, demanding that I face it, deal with it, and somehow make peace with what happened and how it effected my life. I have moments these days, when I feel like God is once again trying to bring me to my knees. Once again trying to push me to that place where I come back to Him on my knees and begging.
My response? No. I won't do it again. I won't put my trust there again and have my life torn apart the way it has been over and over. But I would like to. I would like to trust that God is there, looking after me and protecting me. But, I don't trust Him.
I blame God for everything, even the "devil".
Not understanding why things are the way they are,
or why some things happen, is more my case.
Sometimes mad, and maybe disappointed with myself at times.
And sometimes I want to look closer and sometimes I don't want to look,
at why, what and reasons, or whatever factors that can be seen.
Hi! Good to see you here. Yes, even the devil, if he exists, was created by God, with God's foreknowledge yes? So ultimately, if the glory goes to God, why wouldn't the blame as well? Why is it that God is supposed to get all of the credit and we are supposed to take all of the blame upon ourselves - or shift it to the devil, if such a creature exists??
I totally get not wanting to look. I have avoided looking for many, many years. But it seems now it is time to face it and look, that it won't be ignored any longer.
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waysider
Everything that happened in The Way either:
1. Happened because of your believing.
2. Happened because you were out of fellowship and thus couldn't receive revelation. (outside of hedge of protection)
3. Happened for a reason (Nothing ever happens randomly.)
4. Was predestined to happen before the world began.
I no longer subscribe to any of those reasons.
So, no, I don't get mad at God, because, as the saying goes, Sometimes Stuff Just Happens.
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Abigail
But what about when it is really, really bad stuff? The kind of bad stuff that changes the course of your life and throws it completely off track? Does that go into the category of "stuff happens" too? Do you still believe in God Waysider? What about the devi;?
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soul searcher
Of course I was never in TWI but...
I don't believe there is a loving god. Certainly not a god who demands to be glorified.
I do believe there is a higher being -- whatever being or entity or force that makes a sperm cell swim up a fallopian tube and fertilize an egg (for example). That's the god I believe in and there's nothing "loving" about it.
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waysider
I probably need to qualify my take on randomness.
If I know, for example, a particular work procedure is dangerous but, stubbornly proceed with it anyway, any negative consequences may or may not be entirely attributed to randomness. If, on the other hand, I follow all the correct procedures and an accident still occurs because a series of negative factors coincided in an unprecedented fashion, this would be random. In the first scenario, I must take responsibility for my own choices. The second scenario falls into the "stuff happens" category. Why should I logically blame God for either of these?
I've seen too many amazing things in my life to doubt that God exists. Even the sheer magnitude of nature's wonders and the complexity of the life processes regarding humans and animals leaves me awestruck at times. The devil, on the other hand, I believe is a symbolic, but much needed, representation of mankind's struggle against adversity, not an actual spiritual entity. And, this is why I think that if one can get past the confining concept of innerrancy, whole new dimensions of understanding can be opened.
My own introduction to The Way was a random event. At some point, though, my own decisions, though based on misinformation and deception (date and switch) led me deeper into my involvement with the organization. If I'm angry at anyone, it is probably myself, not God, for allowing myself to be duped.
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Abigail
Okay, I'm with you Waysider. I also believe in God, but do not believe in the Devil. So, lets go with randomness and stuff happens and this brings me full circle to the whole anger at God thing. Why would an all loving God allow random acts of tragedy to occur? Why would God fail to protect someone who believes in Him and believes He will keep them safe?
Oh and Waysider, I'm not talking about protecting someone from TWI. At some point we all drank that Koolaid for various reasons. I'm talking literally about a sudden and unexpected event that could not have been forseen or prevented.
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waysider
I wish I had some answers to those questions. But, then, who doesn't?
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Abigail
Soulsearcher, if the God you believe in is not loving, how do you keep from falling into depression and despair? What gives you hope?
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soul searcher
I've had depression and despair for much of my life. I tried God (praying, reading the bible, etc.) but it didn't work. Zoloft and psychotherapy work much better, and I'm not being facetious.
My sister-in-law, a born-again Christian, talks about God all the time. It's apparent to me that what she calls "God", I call luck.
I've been asking that question for all of my adult life -- and I've never gotten a good answer.
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Abigail
I may be derailing my own thread. But perhaps this will help explain my questions. I do believe science and religion can mix. I sort of see quantum mechanics as the spiritual side of things and the chaos theory and the physical world we live in.
We are now nearing the end of the Days of Awe and I have really been trying to work my way through some stuff from my past, the specifics of which I do not care to go into. So here is a bit of what I have been reading, that jumpted out at me.
Human consciousness plays a major role in determining reality. There are even respectable scientists who state categorically that things happen because we observe them to happen This is Schrodenginer's Cat. I think there is some validity to it, but I don't buy it as an across the board end all truth.
Those who work in the field of chaos theory and complex systems point out that a small change in a single atom can ripple through the cosmos, effecting major impact on the macrocosm This is how I see human interaction. As we interact with one another we have an effect on the person and that creates a ripple effect. Someone described it to me as a pool table with no holes for the balls. You use the cue ball and hit another ball and it rolls into maybe 3 or 4 more, etc. Human interaction is the same.
Furthermore, this Supreme Consciousness is not to be viewed as some outside force who happened to come across a universe and decided to muck about with it. Rather, that Consciousness is the perpetual origin of all that is. At every moment, all matter and energy is regenerated into being out of the void . . . . . . .So He created a paradox. That's what creating a world out of nothing is all about -- doing the impossible. Creating a world means creating a second reality: The first reality is that there is nothing else but Him. The second reality is that there is a world here that He is sustaining. Both realities are true. In Chabad Chassidut, these two realities are called Daat Elyon and Daat Tachton, literally, the Higher Consciousness and the Lower Consciousness.
At every point in a person's life, s/he will find him/herself exactly at the spot G-d desires this little creature should be at this time. Make whatever choice you want, it doesn't change the ultimate outcome. It only changes one thing: Who's responsible for the outcome? Is this mess all your fault, that you should have to clean it up? Or are you the hero who contained the damage from extending further? Whose side are you on and how hard are you fighting? When we get there, will it be through your efforts, or despite them? Will we have to drag you there, or will you come marching in the front line? You'll go through the circuit, but will you make the best out of each ride, milking every experience for all its got? Will you overcome the darkness in a fell swoop of the sword, or will you roll with it in the dust, fighting it until its very essence is annihilated?
And this is the part that always leaves me banging my head against the wall and being really ....ed off at God. Because if that is true, then everything that happened was what God wanted to have happen. It is another paradox, God is supposed to always get the glory, but mankind is stuck with the blame and responsibility??? How exactly does that work? :)
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Twinky
Interesting.
I don't ever recall being angry at God.
I do recall being puzzled, surprised, other responses, at what happens - or doesn't.
I was ....ed off that I got laid off from work over 3 nearly 4 years ago - from a job I truly believe was God-given - and only a few months after I'd purchased my first (and only) house in this city that I moved to for the job. How could that happen - that God gives me a great job in a new city - and then just a few months later "He" takes it away??? No, I never thought He took it away - "it's the economy, stoopid!" - and I've NEVER had any debts! - but if it was a bad thing, a lemon, for sure God has turned it into lemonade.
See, on the other hand, I found a great church that has been very healing to me after the battering from TWI - I spent the first few months with tears of thankfulness in very Sunday service - I have found great friends, a social life that's better than I've ever had, and now (after being on the dole [welfare] for 3 years) have set up doing "whatever" for people and don't know when I have ever felt so happy and content at work. It's like a fresh start in a new location. I still have my house and even have managed to reduce the amount of mortgage outstanding.
Godliness with contentment is great gain.....I'm rich!
Usually when something - let's say "less desirable" - happens, I can look at what I myself have done and know it was my own fault. I didn't pay attention and caused an accident on the road; didn't take care and fell off a ladder; took a short cut and the task was a disaster. But that's MY fault, not God's. (Not that these things have happened, but I know I've done stupid things that had the potential to cause very serious problems.)
So no, I don't get angry with God. When things go "wrong," I wonder what better thing is just around the corner (even if it's some years down the line).
It might be different if I had a horrible accident or was struck by some horrible disease or something very unpleasant happened to one of my loved ones. Maybe I would be angry then. But (thank God) that hasn't happened yet.
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soul searcher
Interestingly, I say "thank God" all the time. And when things are tough I do pray. But I'm not convinced that all my prayers don't amount to much more than me talking to myself.
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Twinky
Abigail, you were posting at the same time I was. Your posts are always thought-provoking.
(off topic) TWI could really have helped us to understand some things better if they’d brought in a rabbi or two to explain Jewish perspectives on things – not thrown Lamsa in our faces.
Anyway…lots to think about in your post.
We’re all going to live each moment, each minute, each hour, each day. We can live it enjoying it, or live it as if it were a burden. As we’re going to live it anyway, what will be our attitude of mind? That’s going to affect a lot of our attitude towards God, a “higher power,” randomness or whatever else we hang our hats on.
Completely
but I just noticed that the post I wrote above which was timed for me at 5.32 is quoted by Soul Searcher at 12.32. This board adjusts for local time except when posts are quoted, obviously!
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Abigail
Is it a choice that we make each day, really? We can control how we behave, but do we really have control over our emotions - other than suppressing them into non-existance like we did in TWI?
Hmmmm - okay, let me take another tact. We know there were women who were sexually abused in TWI. The women came to TWI because they absolutely wanted to know God. They were searching for God and they were beaten or sexually abused instead. How does one reconcile that without at some point becoming at least a little bit ticked off at God??
Soul Searcher, I often think prayer is more for us than for God. Even if one believes in God differently than you do - if God is all knowing and knows the thoughts of our hearts, He knows our prayers before we do. Prayer is to bring us to a place of peace, it isn't for God's benefit. That's what I think anyway. :)
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Twinky
Well, you do have a point Abigail.
That place left me in such a state of despair that ... well I'm still here despite them.
And each day was a torment. In the day I longed for the night; in the night I longed for the day. I lost maybe 35lb because deciding what to eat was too difficult (and I'm not fat, only 140lb).
No physical abuse (well not much) but the mental abuse...left me badly damaged.
Strange, it's so much like a bad dream now - did it really happen??? I wasn't mad at God, just utterly full of self-condemnation for being such a failure and disappointment to him. I grovelled. Was ashamed. It took me YEARS to be able to think even slightly straight.
I'd about forgotten that...like a dream, as I said.
I am so thankful now for - well - everything.
Not much bothers me nowadays. In my heart.
The physicals - like the misery of being unemployed and existing on practically nothing - belong some other place. I always had enough.
Attitude of mind is something we can all control.
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socks
Good question kiddo.
I have what I call "conversations" in that regard. I guess it's become more or less second nature to me at this point where I accept that some things are in my domain and some are not and understanding the difference is where the discussion occurs so to speak. But I don't feel anger - anger over the fact that life is what it is sometimes but I don't feel a conflict with God that would lead to anger. I have at times though and don't feel bad about it at all - none of this creation or life was my idea so I don't feel bad that I don't get it all the time. If I need to square up in my heart with God, I do. It can take time sometimes.
A lot of religious thought posits that God is sovereign, over everything, controls everything and that everything is part of God's "plan". So when something happens, good or bad, it's credited to "God" who has a "plan" and that there's a purpose related to God in whatever happens. (Or the "Devil" who may affect or intervene. And that man is in the middle more or less, managing and dealing with opposing forces.)
I believe this is inferred in the Bible but in metaphor - giving God credit and standing, "glory", supremacy. But not that God is actually managing everything as a person would, everything all at once.
I see it as God being God and by definition is of course sovereign over all. But that creation is not being controlled atom by atom, everything all the time, by a God who is making decisions about everything.
Like the 'earth' - "be fruitful and multiply" and tend to the planet - It's God's "creation". It's man's domain to work in and live.
As a result I don't get mad at God all that much. The urge to cry out in celebration or complaint about life is human though and I probably do some of both.
Way teaching leads a person to think that God is in neutral (although He has a "will" or logos) and we "operate" His "god given power" to us when we choose to. That will cause a person to be frustrated because everything, lots of things in fact I would suggest MOST things we do based on that kind of thinking are simply not going to happen that way - we'll always be trying harder, again, over and over, blaming someone or something and rounding up or down to make the results we do see fit what we're trying to "do" and how we think it should happen. That'll definitely pi ss someone off, sooner or later.
I've labelled myself a "Chaos Christian" before, by the way. I believe humanity's relationship within itself and with God is so diverse and varigated that it's useless to try and grasp it into some form of repeatable order that can be understood and captured by some dictum of man's faith. "Spiritual serendipity" - live the best I can with the best I know, keep learning and observing life as it's underway.
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Naten00
I think it is in the definition of who God is. Is God all-loving..... Well if he was all loving then what about Justice and Holiness? I would say God is Love but he is not all-loving. Justice must take place but his love prevents him to execute it before the appointed time. Where we all would fail. One of my favorite teachers Dr. Ravi Zacherias says that Christianity is the only religion where love and Justice meet and that is at the cross. If God was just a just God then no Cross needed. If God was only loving then just forgiving and God not needing payment for sin. I would say God is a Holy God.
I was speaking with someone who is now in a splinter group from TWI (I have never been in the way with wife was and her family is). He was appauled that I believed that God would cause harm in order for the good. I asked him about when Jesus in John 9 healed the blind man from whose blind from birth. Jesus said he was blind his whole life for the purpose of being healed. He asked me do I really think God would cause someone to be blind in order for him to be glorified. I said It dose not matter what I think that is what it says. I can accept it or not. Someone could say in this verse God allowed it to happen but you still end up with God being so powerful him allowing it for the purpose of His glory is as if he did it.
What is for my Good? What brings me to the full knowledge of the Truth? Is it really prosperity or is it going through life with all the struggles that come with it and have Jesus fulfill his claim at the end of Matthew "low I will be with you even to the very end of the age".
Honestly I used to be angry at God until I read this verse Ps 115:3 "God is in heaven and he does whatever pleases him". It isn't about me and no amount of believing will correct that. God will do what He will. Unless the bible is false and the creator created me to worship me but that makes no since. It is funny we demand our own creations to worship and glorify us but get angry at God when he demands it out of us. I notice that in myself. In some way I don't think he even demands it. It is just intrinsic to who God is. It won't be should I or will I. It just will happen when we see Him in His total Glory.
Lastly Jesus promised a hard life. Even telling the "rock" Peter that he will have die a painful death in order to glorify God and then says follow me?...sign me up!.... He even said that the rain will fall on the just and unjust alike.... What type of fair is that? Horrible things have happened through abuse and horrible hate in my life but its His walk with me that keeps me going. Through fearing the holy character who He is it do I find undying love and peace.....Now I understand in Proverbs it says the fear of the Lord leads to life and those who have it rest satisfied.
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Abigail
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Abigail
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TrustAndObey
Interesting topic.. Interesting thoughts.. Thanks everyone!
Thanks Abigail for bringing it up!
As for me.. I'll have to agree with socks that it's just too huge a universe to grasp it all..
I do think God is love (and just). Heck, I think the very definition of love is God. But then I probably screw the word up doing so. From the Hebrew word 'ahav'. Aleph Bet is the Father, and in the middle is the Hey.. The little guy with his hands waving, come and see! Come and see the Father.. The aleph, strong one of the bet, house. Yeah, well, ignore my rantings.
So I'm mostly convinced God created this universe with love in mind. But at the same time I don't see how God's plan could ever be accomplished without pain and suffering. Maybe that's the chaos. I dunno. I don't think God's will is the pain and suffering. But, as I understand his plan(or my irrational idea of it), since creation, were to create those who would love and care for this earth and take care of one another. But as with the creation of light, comes the possibility of the negative, the darkness. Those who are selfish, unloving, carers only of themselves. And with that we have destiny in our hands to help or destroy. Sometimes we destory while trying to help. I think of while in TWI all those who had a good heart, but ended up hurting others. While those who aim to destroy sometimes help. Yet in the end you have those who lay traps for men/women. And those who aim to rid earth of those traps. All the while I think God desired the earlier to be gone, and maybe assists at times. But I'm weird in that I do think He limits himself, allowing them to destroy themselves till the end. And in the midst, we are stuck with traps laid by men that we fall into.
But back to why.. I dunno.. Why doesn't this loving God keep us out of those traps. At least let us know before we fall in em. Maybe he did. Don't trust man! lol.. I dunno, all the stupid and idiotic things that happen to me, I see where I'm partially responsible. Made terrible choices. Didn't investigate enough. Damnit, I'm just naive, OK! I forget there's those booby traps everywhere. And I get caught. Why should I blame someone else for my own stupidity. But you're right, what about those caught in the 9/11 towers. Or the world wars.. I dunno. Too much death and destruction, can I just leave! As Paul said, I would rather to be out of this flesh and with Christ. But the world needs people to clear these there traps, you know. And death.. No, I don't see it so much an enemy. As a paraphrased Ecclesiastes talks about, those who died are blessed to not have to deal with the evil, yet it was even better had they never lived to see evil (I think, aborted fetuses - those lucky kids)! It's an enemy only in the sense that the world has one less light. Well, for some deaths. But the second death. Yes, I believe in the resurrections and a final death, the final extinguishing of what God didn't want when he created this thing. That enemy, that evil, that death that it all brings.. I can't wait till it's gone!
And there I go raving again..
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socks
Why doesn't this loving God keep us out of those traps. At least let us know before we fall in em. Maybe he did. Don't trust man! lol..
Free will - each of us chooses. The magnitude of the diversity in mankind is absolutely beyond comprehension when we consider that a fundamental component of our individual consciousness is that we think and choose and act and accumulate a singular set of memories in consciousness, separate from anyone else. Each of us is non-repeatable and from arrival to departure we define a "me" that isn't shared by anyone else. We may all be part of a big swirling mass of whatever but each of us has a perception of that that requires that we identify our own part in it separately from all others. Joined together, separate instances of consciousness - "Life". Man identifies God that way and if that's been handed down to us correctly there is a "me" to God too - an identity.
I ask the question "why isn't it different?" " Why isn't it better?" Why why why? did God "do" it this way and given the faults and failings we all experience why the @!#!! doesn't He just change it for the "better"?
My own super scientific answer is "because". Because this is it, it is what it is because it is what it's become. Whatever got us here it wasn't completely up to God as we've been able to steer our paths and limited destinies in our own life cycles and here we are. Is there a "perfect" life to be lived? I would say "yes" - but it will be lived in concert with a gazillion other lives being lived - we are us.
We could be better, we could be different, we could exemplify the best each of us knows and learns about ourselves and others. But we don't. We can make conscious effort that works for good or bad.
It would seem that all systems are incomplete in one way or another, even when they're completely successful at what it is they're designed to do - they don't do everything all the time, forever. Humans are like that and within the range of who and what we are we have a limited scope, we can only do so much. So we do "the best we can" and failure is part of the deal. Failure may be the wrong word for it but it's what I'm thinking.
I've given a lot of thought myself also to what exactly "sin" is. A lot of knee jerk answers come up but the answer has to be very very basic to make a difference in such a way that it can be fully realized and understood. I know what the Bible says and what people say but my sense is that the concept of a "redeemer", Christ, is more basic than people doing things wrong and having them forgiven. Not everyone wants to do the wrong thing, to "sin" and if a person knew the right things to do they'd do them -right? We know that simply isn't the case though so it appears to me to come down to a really basic aspect of man and what man is, what I am, that must be accomodated for in this life. Being born wasn't our idea, we didn't start the ball rolling - but now we're here.
Rant #234, Forgot where I was going with this.
Sorry!
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Twinky
It would be really interesting to see a totally different perspective on this.
From a Christian in India, Pakistan, Ethopia, Somalia, China.
We're all from fairly similar "western" backgrounds. Our views and understandings are similar.
How do you think you might think about this if you were, say, a Somali Christian who had walked days to find food, who'd watched one or more children die of starvation?
Or you lived in India or Pakistan or some Arab countries, where it's an offense to convert to Christianity?
Would you "get mad" with God, or just accept difficulties as part and parcel of being a Christian? or (at least) a God-believer.
Did Jesus, who was rejected, beaten, abused, laughed at ... get mad with God? We know he spent a lot of time in prayer - talking with his Father. Maybe he "got mad" then. Maybe he asked why these things happened. Leastways, if he did, he got over it and didn't let it affect his dealings with people or doing his Father's will.
And we know from the records in Acts and the epistles that some very bad things happened to early Christians (persecution and murder) and to Paul and his companions. They didn't blame God or get mad at him. They rejoiced, met together, sang songs ...
Some of the Psalms are full of "woe is me, why is this happening?" followed by submission and acknowledgment of God's greatness.
We were never promised an easy time of life. So there will be things that we could "get mad" about.
We were, rather, promised difficulties.
And we were also promised peace, such as the world does not give. Despite the external circumstances.
Not sure that "getting mad" is quite the right response. But asking "WHY?" certainly is.
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waysider
Is "getting mad" an inappropriate response to adversity? Along with that, is "getting mad" synonymous with "assigning blame"? Maybe getting mad is a healthy response in some situations, while assigning blame is something to be avoided unless the situation requires it..
I'm just rambling here.
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cman
I blame God for everything, even the "devil".
Not understanding why things are the way they are,
or why some things happen, is more my case.
Sometimes mad, and maybe disappointed with myself at times.
And sometimes I want to look closer and sometimes I don't want to look,
at why, what and reasons, or whatever factors that can be seen.
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Abigail
It doesn't matter if getting mad is appropriate, or even right. As Socks says, it is what it is. Am I to pretend I don't feel the way I do because it may not be right? I can't, that would be a sin against myself, it would be dishonest within myself.
Asking why. Yes, I do ask why. I desperately want to know why. I guess on some level, this is all a crisis of faith. That I believe there is a God remains true. That I trust that God, that is the crisis of faith perhaps.
When I was a girl, I was not raised with any particular regious beliefs. Despite that, I had this unwavering faith that God looked after me and would keep me safe. Then He didn't. Following that, I spent a number of years living in a very self-destructive manner until I was finally brought to me knees and I begged God to show me the way.
I ended up IN The Way. There we were taught the formula for how to get and maintain God's hedge of protection around us. And I bought it. I bought into it and I found myself married to a man that hurt me in every way possible - physically, sexually, emotionally.
I left. I got of of The Way and out of the marriage. I built a new life once again. But here I am, all of these years later and that childhood event has come back, demanding that I face it, deal with it, and somehow make peace with what happened and how it effected my life. I have moments these days, when I feel like God is once again trying to bring me to my knees. Once again trying to push me to that place where I come back to Him on my knees and begging.
My response? No. I won't do it again. I won't put my trust there again and have my life torn apart the way it has been over and over. But I would like to. I would like to trust that God is there, looking after me and protecting me. But, I don't trust Him.
Hi! Good to see you here. Yes, even the devil, if he exists, was created by God, with God's foreknowledge yes? So ultimately, if the glory goes to God, why wouldn't the blame as well? Why is it that God is supposed to get all of the credit and we are supposed to take all of the blame upon ourselves - or shift it to the devil, if such a creature exists??
I totally get not wanting to look. I have avoided looking for many, many years. But it seems now it is time to face it and look, that it won't be ignored any longer.
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