I have read the book Jesus Christ IS God by Dr. Robert L. Sumner . I think it is a good book. My wife and I have the book The cult that snapped as well. What are your opinions of these books and what other references out there do you guys recommend.
Does anyone recommend giving any of these books to people in the Way?
I don't know the book by Sumner......but, I have recently read the excerpts from The Cult that Snapped. If you want to give someone in TWI one of these books you should......I just wouldn't get your hopes up that they will actually read them. I am not sure about cult books....sorry, but there are threads around here full of great suggestions. Maybe you could do a search?
For some good theological books I recommend something by DA Carson, Tim Keller, Ben Witherington III ......or anyone in the Gospel Coalition. Pretty good guys. If you could find DA Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, I always thought this would be great for a Wayfer to read.....if they would just consider it ....it could be very helpful. http://thegospelcoalition.org/
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse - Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church
by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen
I actually would recommend giving this to someone in the Way. It's a story of those two authors fighting that in a startup church, and the scriptures they uncovered, the perspectives they developed, and the truths they learned. It never mentions cults, and certainly doesn't directly target anything in the Way. But for people who respect scripture, it helps you develop a perspective of looking for characteristics described in the Bible. And where someone sees those can be eye opening.
quote: Does anyone recommend giving any of these books to people in the Way?
Not any more than I would recommend giving JCING to a catholic priest.
In many cases, The Way International projected its own closed-mindedness on everybody else. I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
In many cases, The Way International projected its own closed-mindedness on everybody else. I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
Love,
Steve
Exactly, Steve.
How do we know these other groups (broad paintbrush?) were/are as closed minded as TWI portrayed them?
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse - Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church
by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen
I actually would recommend giving this to someone in the Way. It's a story of those two authors fighting that in a startup church, and the scriptures they uncovered, the perspectives they developed, and the truths they learned. It never mentions cults, and certainly doesn't directly target anything in the Way. But for people who respect scripture, it helps you develop a perspective of looking for characteristics described in the Bible. And where someone sees those can be eye opening.
Chockfull,
I've found it very helpful to recommend THE SUBTLE POWER OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE to people who have left TWI, especially recently. Even folks who left a long time ago have also found it helpful. You would swear the two authors had been in The Way, but they were not ... it's just that quite a few churches and ministries have similar sorts of subtle spiritual abuse. This book shows another example that "there is nothing new under the sun," as it says in Ecclesiastes.
quote: I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
I never heard of any. Sure never WITNESSED to any. As soon as they find out JCING then THEY became the closed minded glassy eyed robots. TWI never told me this; I saw it first hand.
BTW what's the difference between a catholic and a Jesuit? Thought they were one and the same.
I never heard of any. Sure never WITNESSED to any. As soon as they find out JCING then THEY became the closed minded glassy eyed robots. TWI never told me this; I saw it first hand.
To quote "There are 68,503,456 registered Catholics in the United States (22% of the US population) according to the American Bishops' count in their Official Catholic Directory 2010."
So - you witnessed to all of them? or just demographic samples representing all of them?
In the "Jesuits" link.....this quote speaks volumes to "there's nothing new under the sun:" "As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience to scripture as interpreted by Catholic doctrine."
Hey, followers of da-way......aren't you supposed to continue your obedience to scripture AS INTERPRETED BY TWI'S DOCTRINE?
As soon as they find out JCING then THEY became the closed minded glassy eyed robots. TWI never told me this; I saw it first hand.
:offtopic: :offtopic:
It could be that once they heard that YOU believe that JCING....they were simply not interested in hearing anything else you had to say. Hard to believe...I know. Proclaiming JCING can be a pretty big red flag to many Christians. And we did it with such great humility. Yeah right.
I wish I had been smart enough to recognize a few red flags.
Interesting that you add the term "glassy eyed robots" because that is what I imagine we looked like... programmed as we were to spit out that remedial PFAL class as if it were the "truth" as it has not been known since the 1st century. Why would any thinking person close their mind to that?
Yep...pretty sure that is a fairly apt description of a witnessing wayfer....glassy eyed robot.
Again...someone asks a fairly straight forward and honest question....and we again end up with Johniam's meandering.
quote: I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
I never heard of any. Sure never WITNESSED to any. As soon as they find out JCING then THEY became the closed minded glassy eyed robots. TWI never told me this; I saw it first hand.
BTW what's the difference between a catholic and a Jesuit? Thought they were one and the same.
for the original poster,
I think that's your answer right there.
I'll explain for the studio audience.....
The original poster is looking for recommendations for books to offer to innies.
This poster's all set to pass judgement on people even though he obviously doesn't know
anything about them.
That's the standard twi thing.
Anyone not in twi-mode? Obviously, they are inferior to twi-mode people.
What's the difference between us and them? They're glassy-eyed robots and close-minded.
And don't explore their doctrine, do things the twi way only.
lcm was fond of saying that people who served the devil (or served "the adversary",
since twi couldn't call him the same thing anyone else did) frequently accused others
of the things they themselves do.
It's pretty much standard policy that twi'ers (and those in twi mode who learned twi mode
from twi) that they do things, then accuse those who don't do them of doing them-
while denying that THEY do them.
In a practical sense, that means when someone in twi mode accuses others of never
examing doctrine, but responding by going into glassy-eyed robotics,
that means that person's all but admitting that's their standard operating procedure.
twi mode people are very predictable, since independent thought leads to unpredictability.
So, for the original poster,
it's obvious that people who WANT to be in twi will be robotic in response.
If he doesn't want to waste his money on such a book, he should give it to
someone wbo's already willing to consider that twi's answers are grossly inefficient
and directing them to drive their life straight into a ditch and keep it there.
Otherwise, even the most brilliant written work won't be read, and if it's read,
it will be by someone lacking understanding.
:offtopic: :offtopic:
It could be that once they heard that YOU believe that JCING....they were simply not interested in hearing anything else you had to say. Hard to believe...I know. Proclaiming JCING can be a pretty big red flag to many Christians. And we did it with such great humility. Yeah right.
I wish I had been smart enough to recognize a few red flags.
Interesting that you add the term "glassy eyed robots" because that is what I imagine we looked like... programmed as we were to spit out that remedial PFAL class as if it were the "truth" as it has not been known since the 1st century. Why would any thinking person close their mind to that?
Yep...pretty sure that is a fairly apt description of a witnessing wayfer....glassy eyed robot.
Again...someone asks a fairly straight forward and honest question....and we again end up with Johniam's meandering.
Back to topic.
Actually,
I've found it's possible to take off-topic, pro-twi meanderings,
and use them to address the current topic.
Since pro-twi, off-topic meanderings are pretty much all variations on a few limited themes,
if you've seen one, to a degree, you've seen them all.
So, I found how to use them despite the intent of the meander-er.
quote: "As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience to scripture as interpreted by Catholic doctrine."
Sounds like you're saying all Jesuits are catholic, but not all catholics are Jesuit. Jesuits are like AC grads (more activist) and the general term 'catholic' is foundational mass grads, sort of. OK, I get it.
quote: The original poster is looking for recommendations for books to offer to innies.
This poster's all set to pass judgement on people even though he obviously doesn't know
anything about them.
That's the standard twi thing.
You might remember from the 'Changed' film that Mrs. Strauhal, a catholic, said she SIT while still in the catholic church, long before ever having heard of twi. This reveals that catholics can be in the body of Christ, too. Mrs. S is certainly not the only one. So much for passing judgement. BTW, which books have YOU recommended on this thread?
OK, you want a book? For innies? Duh, how about the way living in love. Any current innie who never read that book, reading it, would now have a chance to see that it was like THAT back in '72, but it's like THIS right now. Why is it so different now than it was THEN? Why do I get yelled at so abruptly if I ask leadership about this book? Hmm. Let me think about this.
THEN you might have an open door to recommend other books. If you give a current innie a book for the sole purpose of dissing twi...and the current innie LIKES twi...well, you catch more flies with honey, right?
OK, you want a book? For innies? Duh, how about the way living in love. Any current innie who never read that book, reading it, would now have a chance to see that it was like THAT back in '72, but it's like THIS right now. Why is it so different now than it was THEN? Why do I get yelled at so abruptly if I ask leadership about this book? Hmm. Let me think about this.
THEN you might have an open door to recommend other books. If you give a current innie a book for the sole purpose of dissing twi...and the current innie LIKES twi...well, you catch more flies with honey, right?
What is the gist of the book? Can you give me some background?
"Dostoyevsky intended it to be the first part in an epic story titled The Life of a Great Sinner, but he died less than four months after its publication."
A donated and partially read copy of Tom Wolfe's book presently lies in the living room of the most likely candidate. I won't say who, they don't post here, yet.
But the person loved the book..
They will probably post on the ex-affiliated board, of the organization they are presently involved with..
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geisha779
I don't know the book by Sumner......but, I have recently read the excerpts from The Cult that Snapped. If you want to give someone in TWI one of these books you should......I just wouldn't get your hopes up that they will actually read them. I am not sure about cult books....sorry, but there are threads around here full of great suggestions. Maybe you could do a search?
For some good theological books I recommend something by DA Carson, Tim Keller, Ben Witherington III ......or anyone in the Gospel Coalition. Pretty good guys. If you could find DA Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, I always thought this would be great for a Wayfer to read.....if they would just consider it ....it could be very helpful. http://thegospelcoalition.org/
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chockfull
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse - Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church
by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen
I actually would recommend giving this to someone in the Way. It's a story of those two authors fighting that in a startup church, and the scriptures they uncovered, the perspectives they developed, and the truths they learned. It never mentions cults, and certainly doesn't directly target anything in the Way. But for people who respect scripture, it helps you develop a perspective of looking for characteristics described in the Bible. And where someone sees those can be eye opening.
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johniam
quote: Does anyone recommend giving any of these books to people in the Way?
Not any more than I would recommend giving JCING to a catholic priest.
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Steve Lortz
In many cases, The Way International projected its own closed-mindedness on everybody else. I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Exactly, Steve.
How do we know these other groups (broad paintbrush?) were/are as closed minded as TWI portrayed them?
Oh, I forgot, TWI told us so.
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DogLover
Chockfull,
I've found it very helpful to recommend THE SUBTLE POWER OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE to people who have left TWI, especially recently. Even folks who left a long time ago have also found it helpful. You would swear the two authors had been in The Way, but they were not ... it's just that quite a few churches and ministries have similar sorts of subtle spiritual abuse. This book shows another example that "there is nothing new under the sun," as it says in Ecclesiastes.
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johniam
quote: I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING.
I never heard of any. Sure never WITNESSED to any. As soon as they find out JCING then THEY became the closed minded glassy eyed robots. TWI never told me this; I saw it first hand.
BTW what's the difference between a catholic and a Jesuit? Thought they were one and the same.
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OldSkool
To quote "There are 68,503,456 registered Catholics in the United States (22% of the US population) according to the American Bishops' count in their Official Catholic Directory 2010."
So - you witnessed to all of them? or just demographic samples representing all of them?
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waysider
So, then, you don't even know the difference between the two but, you know how "they" all think.
Interesting.
JESUITS
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skyrider
Thanks waysider.
In the "Jesuits" link.....this quote speaks volumes to "there's nothing new under the sun:" "As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience to scripture as interpreted by Catholic doctrine."
Hey, followers of da-way......aren't you supposed to continue your obedience to scripture AS INTERPRETED BY TWI'S DOCTRINE?
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geisha779
It could be that once they heard that YOU believe that JCING....they were simply not interested in hearing anything else you had to say. Hard to believe...I know. Proclaiming JCING can be a pretty big red flag to many Christians. And we did it with such great humility. Yeah right.
I wish I had been smart enough to recognize a few red flags.
Interesting that you add the term "glassy eyed robots" because that is what I imagine we looked like... programmed as we were to spit out that remedial PFAL class as if it were the "truth" as it has not been known since the 1st century. Why would any thinking person close their mind to that?
Yep...pretty sure that is a fairly apt description of a witnessing wayfer....glassy eyed robot.
Again...someone asks a fairly straight forward and honest question....and we again end up with Johniam's meandering.
Back to topic.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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WordWolf
for the original poster,
I think that's your answer right there.
I'll explain for the studio audience.....
The original poster is looking for recommendations for books to offer to innies.
This poster's all set to pass judgement on people even though he obviously doesn't know
anything about them.
That's the standard twi thing.
Anyone not in twi-mode? Obviously, they are inferior to twi-mode people.
What's the difference between us and them? They're glassy-eyed robots and close-minded.
And don't explore their doctrine, do things the twi way only.
lcm was fond of saying that people who served the devil (or served "the adversary",
since twi couldn't call him the same thing anyone else did) frequently accused others
of the things they themselves do.
It's pretty much standard policy that twi'ers (and those in twi mode who learned twi mode
from twi) that they do things, then accuse those who don't do them of doing them-
while denying that THEY do them.
In a practical sense, that means when someone in twi mode accuses others of never
examing doctrine, but responding by going into glassy-eyed robotics,
that means that person's all but admitting that's their standard operating procedure.
twi mode people are very predictable, since independent thought leads to unpredictability.
So, for the original poster,
it's obvious that people who WANT to be in twi will be robotic in response.
If he doesn't want to waste his money on such a book, he should give it to
someone wbo's already willing to consider that twi's answers are grossly inefficient
and directing them to drive their life straight into a ditch and keep it there.
Otherwise, even the most brilliant written work won't be read, and if it's read,
it will be by someone lacking understanding.
Actually,
I've found it's possible to take off-topic, pro-twi meanderings,
and use them to address the current topic.
Since pro-twi, off-topic meanderings are pretty much all variations on a few limited themes,
if you've seen one, to a degree, you've seen them all.
So, I found how to use them despite the intent of the meander-er.
:)
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excathedra
maybe better to say a prayer than give a book
i gave Jesus Christ Is Not God for Christmas presents one year to all my very Roman Catholic family members
they're still Roman Catholic family members lol but i love them to death and vice versa :)
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johniam
quote: "As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience to scripture as interpreted by Catholic doctrine."
Sounds like you're saying all Jesuits are catholic, but not all catholics are Jesuit. Jesuits are like AC grads (more activist) and the general term 'catholic' is foundational mass grads, sort of. OK, I get it.
quote: The original poster is looking for recommendations for books to offer to innies.
This poster's all set to pass judgement on people even though he obviously doesn't know
anything about them.
That's the standard twi thing.
You might remember from the 'Changed' film that Mrs. Strauhal, a catholic, said she SIT while still in the catholic church, long before ever having heard of twi. This reveals that catholics can be in the body of Christ, too. Mrs. S is certainly not the only one. So much for passing judgement. BTW, which books have YOU recommended on this thread?
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johniam
OK, you want a book? For innies? Duh, how about the way living in love. Any current innie who never read that book, reading it, would now have a chance to see that it was like THAT back in '72, but it's like THIS right now. Why is it so different now than it was THEN? Why do I get yelled at so abruptly if I ask leadership about this book? Hmm. Let me think about this.
THEN you might have an open door to recommend other books. If you give a current innie a book for the sole purpose of dissing twi...and the current innie LIKES twi...well, you catch more flies with honey, right?
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Naten00
What is the gist of the book? Can you give me some background?
THanks
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socks
What is it you want to accomplish by giving (them) a book, Naten?
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waysider
I kinda thought Catcher in the Rye was pretty good.
“Don’t ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody.”...Holden Caulfield
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Ham
there seem to be too many interpretations, but they are all good.
What book.. how about Kesey's Garage Sale?
or..
Wolfe's The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test..
or..
any other such good book that will get a wayfer possessed..
sowie. It's where I turned when way nonsense made no sense..
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Ham
I'm sorry. Apologies are offered before hand.
Give them a book which gives on giving..
one which guarantees "possession"..
Just ignore me, I'm nuts. What can you expect of a humble Squirrel?
Read Squirrelish s*it.. and you know the rest. You're going to H*ll in a handbasket..
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waysider
I think The Brothers Karamozov might be a good choice.
"Dostoyevsky intended it to be the first part in an epic story titled The Life of a Great Sinner, but he died less than four months after its publication."
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Ham
A donated and partially read copy of Tom Wolfe's book presently lies in the living room of the most likely candidate. I won't say who, they don't post here, yet.
But the person loved the book..
They will probably post on the ex-affiliated board, of the organization they are presently involved with..
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Ham
by the way, (and despite the Way) I still read the bible, when it is appropriate..
Jeremiah had a lot to say to me..
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waysider
Wasn't he a bullfrog?
His oratory must be ribbeting.
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