If you truly believe that, then there should be absolutely no challenge in transferring that value to the people VP plagiarized the stuff from in the first place.
Nope. VP was the presenter. James Taylor's hit songs are all covers of other peoples' songs, but I'd rather see James perform them than those others. A presenter has to connect with the presentees. That was VPs strength. That's why all of you heard it from VP. That doesn't make him God.
I had 4 tomato crates full of sns tapes going back to the 70s. Ninty percent of them are now in the trash dumpster. Kept a select few. Listened to 'the red thread' last night. VP could connect with an audience. Yes, I know that the end of that tape where he started out with "in Genesis, he's the promised seed of the woman" and so forth through every book in the bible ending with "in Revelation he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords" that he got that from Bullinger. So what?
Do you all really believe that the only reason you ever listened to VP was because you were brainwashed? Do you really believe he was of the devil? Sounds like a sea of speculation and an ocean of doubt to me.
Nope. VP was the presenter. James Taylor's hit songs are all covers of other peoples' songs, but I'd rather see James perform them than those others. A presenter has to connect with the presentees. That was VPs strength. That's why all of you heard it from VP.
Wrong. victor paul wierwille PLAGIARIZED content from other author's works. He stole their work and said it was his. By James Taylor releasing cover songs (vs playing live at a venue) he is required to get compulsory licensing and pay royalties. In other words, credit and compensate the author. victor paul wierwille just took what he wanted to and said he wrote it all, making him a thief, not a presenter.
Incremental indoctrination is very much how things were done. Reminds me of the old story about the frog in a pot of water: turn up the heat in slow, imperceptible increments and the frog will learn too late that he's being cooked alive.
Remember back for a moment to your initial interest in and attraction to The Way International. Now, fast-forward to how you were doing at the end of your involvement and ask yourself the question, If this is what they had offered me at the beginning of my involvement, would I have wanted it? Most of us would say not just no, but hayull no.
Listened to 'the red thread' last night. VP could connect with an audience. Yes, I know that the end of that tape where he started out with "in Genesis, he's the promised seed of the woman" and so forth through every book in the bible ending with "in Revelation he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords" that he got that from Bullinger. So what?
John....wierwille stole "the red thread" teaching from Oral Roberts, not Bullinger.
If you never heard the original teaching from Roberts, how do you know it was better in the wierwille-plagiarized version?
John....wierwille stole "the red thread" teaching from Oral Roberts, not Bullinger.
If you never heard the original teaching from Roberts, how do you know it was better in the wierwille-plagiarized version?
This is correct. It's from a sermon by Oral Roberts entitled "The Fourth Man". IMO it's one of Oral's most dynamic teachings ever. If you've never heard it originally done by Oral, you're missing out - try to find a copy.
By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.
By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.
quote: Therefore, I am not surprised that facebook shows slivers of this cult element. Many of these people will go to their graves....staking their belief system on twi's doctrines.
At least now you acknowledge that there are more people than just me who still value what VP taught.
Actually, it's a measure of inability to actually read what's written (and UNDERSTAND what's written) at the GSC that gets exposed here.
It's been long known at the GSC-and it's come up quite a bit- that there have always been some people who drank the twi kool-aid so deeply that to this day they refuse to consider any other POV and still extoll twi stuff as the greatest ever produced.
That anyone can read and post here more than a decade and not know this (or even understand how to use the Quote feature) is a sad statement, but true.
If something isn't broken, no need to "fix" it.
Yet twi'ers can't tell what's broken and what isn't. Leonard's stuff wasn't "broken", and Bullinger's stuff wasn't "broken", but I've seen people post that they still insist vpw's ripoffs of both are superior to the originals. So, those weren't "broken", and yet vpw "had to fix them."
What about what vpw actually taught? Supposedly, it was just said this wasn't "broken" and doesn't need "fixing."
This is the same stuff that says that if a man announces that he's going to be dead at this time next year, that God Almighty will have to change the laws of the universe if He wants to prevent this. "Because it's a LAW."
This is the same stuff that said "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king" in clear violation of the Mosaic Law.
Do I need to keep going on about all the things that are OBVIOUSLY "broken" about twi dogma and vpw dogma and need "fixing"?
And these are all WELL-KNOWN.
Yet, "vpw said it, that settles it, I believe it."
If vpw said it, then by definition it apparently CAN'T be "broken" and can't need "fixing."
vpw's stuff is blatantly "broken",
vpw's stuff blatantly needs "fixing",
and those unable to see this are also "broken" and need "fixing."
VP was just a man; God's word stands forever.
God's Word stands forever in spite of vpw's dogma contradicting it blatantly in some places and labelling it incorrectly in others.
And to hear some people, vpw was the apex of understanding and sealed up the sum. To a few, he was "OVER-GIFTED" with "an overabundance of brains and brawn."
Of course, this didn't happen overnight.
People needed to be brought to this point SLOWLY, and in SMALL STEPS. Eventually, all the small steps got them to the point where vpw was an expert on everything, and no one else can teach the Bible better, and no one can overhaul his error-ridden theology because his error-ridden theology has no fundamental errors.
Small steps, tiny increments, and people got there. Some still live there. That's not news, but it is sad.
Incremental indoctrination is very much how things were done. Reminds me of the old story about the frog in a pot of water: turn up the heat in slow, imperceptible increments and the frog will learn too late that he's being cooked alive.
Remember back for a moment to your initial interest in and attraction to The Way International. Now, fast-forward to how you were doing at the end of your involvement and ask yourself the question, If this is what they had offered me at the beginning of my involvement, would I have wanted it? Most of us would say not just no, but hayull no.
Opera......yeah, the "frog in a pot of water" is a vivid analogy.
Here's another vivid illustration: In August of 1995, Martindale mandated that all corps MUST be full-time employees of twi to retain corps status. A small number refused and were immediately dropped from active corps status. Dozens of others (60-90?) terminated their other employment, and after a few short months, were "released from twi employment" and labeled corps alumni (a softening of the dropped from active corps status).
By mid-1996, twi publically made known that they were experiencing a troublesome downturn financially and the full-time corps was the first target to slash beginning January 1997. The following life-changes were mandated to the corps, specifically the field corps, and families:
* No corps pregnancies without trustee approval
* No serious pets (dogs, cats, horses)....goldfish, hamsters allowed
* 10% cut in salary and highly demanded that corps should do more
* No childrens' teeth braces without prior trustee authorization
* No music lessons, no karate lessons, no voice lessons, no tuturoing, etc.
* No cable tv, no gym memberships, no notable hobbies
* No gifts were to be received, all such giving = bribery
* No smoking, no tobacco products
* More on list, but you get the point
By April/May of 1998, Martindale publically stated that the full-time field corps "revelation from God" would cease later that year. Hundreds of corps were NOW encouraged to go find employment elsewhere. The corps had "fulfilled the revelation" that God wanted or some-such dribble.
**Disclaimer: With regards to twi's financial measures, I firmly believe that twi exaggerated the situation for their benefit and outcome. It "turned up the heat on the corps to perform or else".....and it gave Martindale a way out of this ridiculous "revelation." By 2003 or so, Greasespot had confirmed that twi's financial statements were in the $48 million range.
If you truly believe that, then there should be absolutely no challenge in transferring that value to the people VP plagiarized the stuff from in the first place.
Nope. VP was the presenter. James Taylor's hit songs are all covers of other peoples' songs, but I'd rather see James perform them than those others.
An inability to distinguish from a singer and musician who gives the correct legally-required (and morally-mandated) credit to those whose work he uses
from a man who plagiarized the work of others, put it forth as his own, and set himself up as the sole authority on understanding God in his time is forgivable, but sad.
A presenter has to connect with the presentees. That was VPs strength. That's why all of you heard it from VP. That doesn't make him God.
Presentation is not the issue, and never was.
The whole idea that vpw was presenting the work of others is, generally, the truth.
All the best of "vpw's" teachings were taken directly from the work of others.
If that was stated at the beginning, we'd have been FINE with that.
(I bought Bullinger's "The Two Natures" at the same time I bought V1nce F's booklet on the same subject,
and bought both Woodrow's "Babylon Mystery Religion" and Hislop's "The Two Babylons",
from which it was taken.)
So, there's moral and legal issues with how vpw presented himself as the source of the material.
He said it was a collaboration between him and God Almighty and that he threw out all his
other theological materials. Yet those were exactly where he got all "his" stuff.
"That doesn't make him God."
Where did that enter this conversation?
I had 4 tomato crates full of sns tapes going back to the 70s. Ninty percent of them are now in the trash dumpster. Kept a select few. Listened to 'the red thread' last night. VP could connect with an audience. Yes, I know that the end of that tape where he started out with "in Genesis, he's the promised seed of the woman" and so forth through every book in the bible ending with "in Revelation he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords" that he got that from Bullinger. So what?
He got that from Oral Roberts-whose work vpw sometimes derided (when he wasn't stealing from it),
not Bullinger. Hard to keep track of all the people vpw ripped off sometimes, isn't it?
The "Red Thread" was an Oral Roberts specialty.
"So what?"
Some friend of yours can do a fair job telling jokes, and says they're all his.
Then you hear of George Carlin and realize he's doing all George's material.
Would you be willing to pay to see your friend telling "his" jokes,
and say "so what" when someone says Carlin's playing downtown?
That's a subject as trivial as comedy. When it comes to the Bible, the stakes are much higher.
Is your standard "clone the work of others and spit them back",
or is it "make the material your own and actually understand it"?
vpw made a number of fundamental errors as the result of just repeating what he heard or read,
and not understanding it first.
Are you going to settle for that in your OWN life?
Do you all really believe that the only reason you ever listened to VP was because you were brainwashed? Do you really believe he was of the devil? Sounds like a sea of speculation and an ocean of doubt to me.
Sounds like a load of horse-manure to me.
This "the only reason you ever listened to vpw was because you were brainwashed" thing is a fiction.
Few, if any, ever made a claim anything like that.
(There's always some nut on the fringe somewhere.)
NONE of us ever CLAIMED it, but John can make it up to pretend we invented such silliness.
And for an encore, a second fiction-
"Do you really believe he was of the devil?"
No, but it's odd for you to bring that up at all.
Are YOU having doubts about that one?
Wrong. victor paul wierwille PLAGIARIZED content from other author's works. He stole their work and said it was his. By James Taylor releasing cover songs (vs playing live at a venue) he is required to get compulsory licensing and pay royalties. In other words, credit and compensate the author. victor paul wierwille just took what he wanted to and said he wrote it all, making him a thief, not a presenter.
John, you're addressing a point that hasn't been raised. As you well know, this is commonly called a "straw man argument".
You do this too frequently for me to believe it's unintentional.
If you wish to have a meta-discussion of this practice, please do so on your Soap Box thread. Otherwise, let's get back to topic, shall we?
This is correct. It's from a sermon by Oral Roberts entitled "The Fourth Man". IMO it's one of Oral's most dynamic teachings ever. If you've never heard it originally done by Oral, you're missing out - try to find a copy.
By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.
In her book "Cults in Our Midst," Margaret Singer (NOT to be confused with Margaret Sanger) lists six conditions that create the atmosphere needed to put thought-reform processes into place. The first is this:
"Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time."
"The process of keeping people unaware is key to the cult's double agenda: the leader slowly takes you through a series of events that on the surface look like one agenda, while on another level, the real agenda is to get you, the recruit or member, to obey and give up your autonomy, your past affiliations, and your belief system. The existence of the double agenda makes this process one of noninformed consent."
The existence of the double agenda makes this process one of noninformed consent."
Love,
Steve
Non-informed consent.
This is an element that is frequently ignored by people who say things such as "No one held a gun to your head." Yes, we made our own decisions ......but sometimes those decisions were based on erroneous and/or deceptive information. Here's a simple example: I go to buy a used car. Part of my decision to buy it is based on the mileage. Unknown to me, the seller has illegally rolled back the odometer. Sure, the decision to buy it was mine but, it was based on flawed information..... Don't let the "seller" off the hook.
"Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time."
"The process of keeping people unaware is key to the cult's double agenda: the leader slowly takes you through a series of events...
Yes....that's what I've always said about the corps indoctrination. It wasn't the corps teachings or study material.....it was the PROCESS OF INDOCTRINATION that was the underlying agenda.
1) The conditioning to obey twi leadership, not the scriptures.
2) The mog-doctrine that supplanted walking by holy spirit within.
3) The peer-pressure and "elder corps" that groomed the "younger corps."
4) The intensely monitored training to be a spiritual "marine corps."
5) The isolation from society, and yet no privacy or personal space.
6) The consistent and subtle attacks on family roots, past, background.
7) The cult agenda to remold one to the servitude of the cult.
If you truly believe that, then there should be absolutely no challenge in transferring that value to the people VP plagiarized the stuff from in the first place.
Nope. VP was the presenter. James Taylor's hit songs are all covers of other peoples' songs, but I'd rather see James perform them than those others. A presenter has to connect with the presentees. That was VPs strength. That's why all of you heard it from VP. That doesn't make him God.
I had 4 tomato crates full of sns tapes going back to the 70s. Ninty percent of them are now in the trash dumpster. Kept a select few. Listened to 'the red thread' last night. VP could connect with an audience. Yes, I know that the end of that tape where he started out with "in Genesis, he's the promised seed of the woman" and so forth through every book in the bible ending with "in Revelation he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords" that he got that from Bullinger. So what?
Do you all really believe that the only reason you ever listened to VP was because you were brainwashed? Do you really believe he was of the devil? Sounds like a sea of speculation and an ocean of doubt to me.
VP was very charismatic....he was a really good cult leader...it goes with the package. He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
If there isn't someone equally as charismatic to step in and take over when the big dog dies....the cult usually dies with him. This has pretty much happened with TWI.
I think we were swayed and persuaded by a persona. It was a cult centered around a personality. His vision, his revelation, his interpretation of scripture, his way. We were incrementally convinced it was the right way. VP was down home and folksy in public.....though this was peppered with some real profanity for the cheap seats..... yeah....he was very good at fooling people...charming people....and a master at entrancing people.
He knew the hook to get us started, read the green card......but, there was always another step to learn or another class to take to arrive.......
I don't believe VP was sent from God..... yet he surely tried to speak for him. I think it was all a bunch of half truths and outright lies along with a perversion of good......YEP....I think that is evil.
The scriptures tell us Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and I believe it. To me, that means we are likely to find him preaching from the pulpit or running your local Christ denying cult. I think VP was a false teacher....and I don't believe they come from God, but rather from the devil. I got that bit from Jesus.
And of course I heard the Red Thread from VP...he was a genius at isolating his flock and alienating us from the church..... I remember VP talking trash about Oral Roberts.
Call it whatever you want...evil, the devil....bad.....but, VP wreaked a great deal of havoc in peoples lives and in my opinion led people away from true faith. I know I was led astray and hurt by it all.
VP was very charismatic....he was a really good cult leader...it goes with the package. He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
Yeah.....after PFAL 77 and vpw's older brother, Harry, dying a few months later...the wheels on wierwille's wagon FELL OFF.
You get up at 5:00 or 5:30, do this, do that, a bunch of something else, lots of nothing worthwhile, go to this or that meeting or class, get chewed out for always being wrong and.... BOOM!...it's midnight, lights out, get up and do it all again tomorrow in unexplainable, inconsequential, incongruous, incremental chunks of time. There was no course of study or meaningful academic pursuit involved with FellowLaborers, just more and more incremental indoctrination.
This is correct. It's from a sermon by Oral Roberts entitled "The Fourth Man". IMO it's one of Oral's most dynamic teachings ever. If you've never heard it originally done by Oral, you're missing out - try to find a copy.
By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.
Interestingly, VPW played that tape for us when I took the Advanced Class at HQ in 1973. I remember to this day Oral saying, "If you don't bow, you won't burn" over and over in that exposition of the record in Daniel of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Very powerful teaching.
quote: He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
Number 2? Never saw that one. Every book on cults I ever looked at had the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas firmly positioned at #1 and #2. Then twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong rotated at 3-5. I'm pretty sure VP was being tongue in cheek when he said that.
quote: If there isn't someone equally as charismatic to step in and take over when the big dog dies....the cult usually dies with him. This has pretty much happened with TWI.
So how many people does a cult have to have in order for it to be alive? I'm going to see Walter Cummins next month. He's still got it going on. There's people all over the country and world still into moving the word. It's called the body of Christ.
So how many people does a cult have to have in order for it to be alive? I'm going to see Walter Cummins next month. He's still got it going on. There's people all over the country and world still into moving the word. It's called the body of Christ.
Yep.....that generic buzz-phrase "moving the word" is wayspeak for running pfal classes or twi-update of the same. All cults got their underworld slang terms for running with the herd. The game of incrementalisim has been going on for a long, long time.
Kinda ironic, isn't it. You come to this forum touting twi doctrine....yet your twi-membership card has been revoked. Then, you mention meeting up with Walter who also doesn't participate there anymore. So, you hide in the shadows and alleyways of the twi-neighborhood for your 'spiritual survival.'
quote: He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
Number 2? Never saw that one. Every book on cults I ever looked at had the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas firmly positioned at #1 and #2. Then twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong rotated at 3-5. I'm pretty sure VP was being tongue in cheek when he said that.
quote: If there isn't someone equally as charismatic to step in and take over when the big dog dies....the cult usually dies with him. This has pretty much happened with TWI.
So how many people does a cult have to have in order for it to be alive? I'm going to see Walter Cummins next month. He's still got it going on. There's people all over the country and world still into moving the word. It's called the body of Christ.
You can call it whatever you like.......and I don't know where Walter C has gone in his journey......but, if he is still making the same confessions of faith......he is still embracing something other than Christ.
Have you ever noticed that the epistles are replete with Paul, Peter, and John going after.....not only the teaching but the people who stood outside the church making aberrant confessions and promoting unsound doctrine? The Apostles did not count them among Christ's followers. They used intense language to describe these men as false teachers. These are the people who lead others astray.....and it all boils down to the Jesus they confess and their understanding of the scriptures.
Which group do you think we fell into? The church....or the ones with the unsound doctrine and another Jesus?
What is very revealing to me is that you can still believe that VP knew and loved the God of scripture....that his teaching was more or less sound.......and although he habitually sinned in the flesh it is somehow irrelevant to his relationship with God. If VP had not taught things so opposed to orthodoxy.....I might understand it.....but, he taught things so opposed to sound doctrine.....to a pure understanding of the Lord.....I just don't see anyway around examining his behavior. It reveals his heart and it reveals what he knew and understood about God.
I am not going to be as fast and loose as you are with terms like the Body of Christ.....born-again....or Christian. They now mean something to me.
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chockfull
I would totally agree with this. Incrementalism. The way you really see this is by noting all the things that are asked of certain members in private. This is like Proverbs talks about in Proverbs
johniam
quote:
If you truly believe that, then there should be absolutely no challenge in transferring that value to the people VP plagiarized the stuff from in the first place.
Nope. VP was the presenter. James Taylor's hit songs are all covers of other peoples' songs, but I'd rather see James perform them than those others. A presenter has to connect with the presentees. That was VPs strength. That's why all of you heard it from VP. That doesn't make him God.
I had 4 tomato crates full of sns tapes going back to the 70s. Ninty percent of them are now in the trash dumpster. Kept a select few. Listened to 'the red thread' last night. VP could connect with an audience. Yes, I know that the end of that tape where he started out with "in Genesis, he's the promised seed of the woman" and so forth through every book in the bible ending with "in Revelation he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords" that he got that from Bullinger. So what?
Do you all really believe that the only reason you ever listened to VP was because you were brainwashed? Do you really believe he was of the devil? Sounds like a sea of speculation and an ocean of doubt to me.
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OldSkool
Wrong. victor paul wierwille PLAGIARIZED content from other author's works. He stole their work and said it was his. By James Taylor releasing cover songs (vs playing live at a venue) he is required to get compulsory licensing and pay royalties. In other words, credit and compensate the author. victor paul wierwille just took what he wanted to and said he wrote it all, making him a thief, not a presenter.
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OperaBuff
Incremental indoctrination is very much how things were done. Reminds me of the old story about the frog in a pot of water: turn up the heat in slow, imperceptible increments and the frog will learn too late that he's being cooked alive.
Remember back for a moment to your initial interest in and attraction to The Way International. Now, fast-forward to how you were doing at the end of your involvement and ask yourself the question, If this is what they had offered me at the beginning of my involvement, would I have wanted it? Most of us would say not just no, but hayull no.
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waysider
John, you're addressing a point that hasn't been raised. As you well know, this is commonly called a "straw man argument".
You do this too frequently for me to believe it's unintentional.
If you wish to have a meta-discussion of this practice, please do so on your Soap Box thread. Otherwise, let's get back to topic, shall we?
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skyrider
John....wierwille stole "the red thread" teaching from Oral Roberts, not Bullinger.
If you never heard the original teaching from Roberts, how do you know it was better in the wierwille-plagiarized version?
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chockfull
This is correct. It's from a sermon by Oral Roberts entitled "The Fourth Man". IMO it's one of Oral's most dynamic teachings ever. If you've never heard it originally done by Oral, you're missing out - try to find a copy.
By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.
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JavaJane
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excathedra
love your posts chockie
johnyouare i have no idea of he was "of the devil" -- i just have to weigh what i got from him -- you know -- learned from him -- and how he raped me
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WordWolf
Actually, it's a measure of inability to actually read what's written (and UNDERSTAND what's written) at the GSC that gets exposed here.
It's been long known at the GSC-and it's come up quite a bit- that there have always been some people who drank the twi kool-aid so deeply that to this day they refuse to consider any other POV and still extoll twi stuff as the greatest ever produced.
That anyone can read and post here more than a decade and not know this (or even understand how to use the Quote feature) is a sad statement, but true.
Yet twi'ers can't tell what's broken and what isn't. Leonard's stuff wasn't "broken", and Bullinger's stuff wasn't "broken", but I've seen people post that they still insist vpw's ripoffs of both are superior to the originals. So, those weren't "broken", and yet vpw "had to fix them."
What about what vpw actually taught? Supposedly, it was just said this wasn't "broken" and doesn't need "fixing."
This is the same stuff that says that if a man announces that he's going to be dead at this time next year, that God Almighty will have to change the laws of the universe if He wants to prevent this. "Because it's a LAW."
This is the same stuff that said "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king" in clear violation of the Mosaic Law.
Do I need to keep going on about all the things that are OBVIOUSLY "broken" about twi dogma and vpw dogma and need "fixing"?
And these are all WELL-KNOWN.
Yet, "vpw said it, that settles it, I believe it."
If vpw said it, then by definition it apparently CAN'T be "broken" and can't need "fixing."
vpw's stuff is blatantly "broken",
vpw's stuff blatantly needs "fixing",
and those unable to see this are also "broken" and need "fixing."
God's Word stands forever in spite of vpw's dogma contradicting it blatantly in some places and labelling it incorrectly in others.
And to hear some people, vpw was the apex of understanding and sealed up the sum. To a few, he was "OVER-GIFTED" with "an overabundance of brains and brawn."
Of course, this didn't happen overnight.
People needed to be brought to this point SLOWLY, and in SMALL STEPS. Eventually, all the small steps got them to the point where vpw was an expert on everything, and no one else can teach the Bible better, and no one can overhaul his error-ridden theology because his error-ridden theology has no fundamental errors.
Small steps, tiny increments, and people got there. Some still live there. That's not news, but it is sad.
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skyrider
Opera......yeah, the "frog in a pot of water" is a vivid analogy.
Here's another vivid illustration: In August of 1995, Martindale mandated that all corps MUST be full-time employees of twi to retain corps status. A small number refused and were immediately dropped from active corps status. Dozens of others (60-90?) terminated their other employment, and after a few short months, were "released from twi employment" and labeled corps alumni (a softening of the dropped from active corps status).
By mid-1996, twi publically made known that they were experiencing a troublesome downturn financially and the full-time corps was the first target to slash beginning January 1997. The following life-changes were mandated to the corps, specifically the field corps, and families:
* No corps pregnancies without trustee approval
* No serious pets (dogs, cats, horses)....goldfish, hamsters allowed
* 10% cut in salary and highly demanded that corps should do more
* No childrens' teeth braces without prior trustee authorization
* No music lessons, no karate lessons, no voice lessons, no tuturoing, etc.
* No cable tv, no gym memberships, no notable hobbies
* No gifts were to be received, all such giving = bribery
* No smoking, no tobacco products
* More on list, but you get the point
By April/May of 1998, Martindale publically stated that the full-time field corps "revelation from God" would cease later that year. Hundreds of corps were NOW encouraged to go find employment elsewhere. The corps had "fulfilled the revelation" that God wanted or some-such dribble.
**Disclaimer: With regards to twi's financial measures, I firmly believe that twi exaggerated the situation for their benefit and outcome. It "turned up the heat on the corps to perform or else".....and it gave Martindale a way out of this ridiculous "revelation." By 2003 or so, Greasespot had confirmed that twi's financial statements were in the $48 million range.
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WordWolf
An inability to distinguish from a singer and musician who gives the correct legally-required (and morally-mandated) credit to those whose work he uses
from a man who plagiarized the work of others, put it forth as his own, and set himself up as the sole authority on understanding God in his time is forgivable, but sad.
Presentation is not the issue, and never was.
The whole idea that vpw was presenting the work of others is, generally, the truth.
All the best of "vpw's" teachings were taken directly from the work of others.
If that was stated at the beginning, we'd have been FINE with that.
(I bought Bullinger's "The Two Natures" at the same time I bought V1nce F's booklet on the same subject,
and bought both Woodrow's "Babylon Mystery Religion" and Hislop's "The Two Babylons",
from which it was taken.)
So, there's moral and legal issues with how vpw presented himself as the source of the material.
He said it was a collaboration between him and God Almighty and that he threw out all his
other theological materials. Yet those were exactly where he got all "his" stuff.
"That doesn't make him God."
Where did that enter this conversation?
He got that from Oral Roberts-whose work vpw sometimes derided (when he wasn't stealing from it),
not Bullinger. Hard to keep track of all the people vpw ripped off sometimes, isn't it?
The "Red Thread" was an Oral Roberts specialty.
"So what?"
Some friend of yours can do a fair job telling jokes, and says they're all his.
Then you hear of George Carlin and realize he's doing all George's material.
Would you be willing to pay to see your friend telling "his" jokes,
and say "so what" when someone says Carlin's playing downtown?
That's a subject as trivial as comedy. When it comes to the Bible, the stakes are much higher.
Is your standard "clone the work of others and spit them back",
or is it "make the material your own and actually understand it"?
vpw made a number of fundamental errors as the result of just repeating what he heard or read,
and not understanding it first.
Are you going to settle for that in your OWN life?
Sounds like a load of horse-manure to me.
This "the only reason you ever listened to vpw was because you were brainwashed" thing is a fiction.
Few, if any, ever made a claim anything like that.
(There's always some nut on the fringe somewhere.)
NONE of us ever CLAIMED it, but John can make it up to pretend we invented such silliness.
And for an encore, a second fiction-
"Do you really believe he was of the devil?"
No, but it's odd for you to bring that up at all.
Are YOU having doubts about that one?
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Steve Lortz
In her book "Cults in Our Midst," Margaret Singer (NOT to be confused with Margaret Sanger) lists six conditions that create the atmosphere needed to put thought-reform processes into place. The first is this:
"Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time."
"The process of keeping people unaware is key to the cult's double agenda: the leader slowly takes you through a series of events that on the surface look like one agenda, while on another level, the real agenda is to get you, the recruit or member, to obey and give up your autonomy, your past affiliations, and your belief system. The existence of the double agenda makes this process one of noninformed consent."
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Non-informed consent.
This is an element that is frequently ignored by people who say things such as "No one held a gun to your head." Yes, we made our own decisions ......but sometimes those decisions were based on erroneous and/or deceptive information. Here's a simple example: I go to buy a used car. Part of my decision to buy it is based on the mileage. Unknown to me, the seller has illegally rolled back the odometer. Sure, the decision to buy it was mine but, it was based on flawed information..... Don't let the "seller" off the hook.
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skyrider
Yes....that's what I've always said about the corps indoctrination. It wasn't the corps teachings or study material.....it was the PROCESS OF INDOCTRINATION that was the underlying agenda.
1) The conditioning to obey twi leadership, not the scriptures.
2) The mog-doctrine that supplanted walking by holy spirit within.
3) The peer-pressure and "elder corps" that groomed the "younger corps."
4) The intensely monitored training to be a spiritual "marine corps."
5) The isolation from society, and yet no privacy or personal space.
6) The consistent and subtle attacks on family roots, past, background.
7) The cult agenda to remold one to the servitude of the cult.
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excathedra
no abortions without trustee approval
ha ha haha hah ahhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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geisha779
VP was very charismatic....he was a really good cult leader...it goes with the package. He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
If there isn't someone equally as charismatic to step in and take over when the big dog dies....the cult usually dies with him. This has pretty much happened with TWI.
I think we were swayed and persuaded by a persona. It was a cult centered around a personality. His vision, his revelation, his interpretation of scripture, his way. We were incrementally convinced it was the right way. VP was down home and folksy in public.....though this was peppered with some real profanity for the cheap seats..... yeah....he was very good at fooling people...charming people....and a master at entrancing people.
He knew the hook to get us started, read the green card......but, there was always another step to learn or another class to take to arrive.......
I don't believe VP was sent from God..... yet he surely tried to speak for him. I think it was all a bunch of half truths and outright lies along with a perversion of good......YEP....I think that is evil.
The scriptures tell us Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and I believe it. To me, that means we are likely to find him preaching from the pulpit or running your local Christ denying cult. I think VP was a false teacher....and I don't believe they come from God, but rather from the devil. I got that bit from Jesus.
And of course I heard the Red Thread from VP...he was a genius at isolating his flock and alienating us from the church..... I remember VP talking trash about Oral Roberts.
Call it whatever you want...evil, the devil....bad.....but, VP wreaked a great deal of havoc in peoples lives and in my opinion led people away from true faith. I know I was led astray and hurt by it all.
I don't believe I was the only one.
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excathedra
i was frikkin hurt for godssake but people think i'm trying to make it about me
i'm not
he was a scumbag
listen to me for cryinoutloud
kris went to him and wanted to kill herself do you hear me?
he told her i'll show you what's good about being alive
and that meant going to the back of the coach
if that isn't downright SICK PSYCHO what is???????????
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skyrider
Yeah.....after PFAL 77 and vpw's older brother, Harry, dying a few months later...the wheels on wierwille's wagon FELL OFF.
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waysider
Incrementalism had a daily aspect as well.
You get up at 5:00 or 5:30, do this, do that, a bunch of something else, lots of nothing worthwhile, go to this or that meeting or class, get chewed out for always being wrong and.... BOOM!...it's midnight, lights out, get up and do it all again tomorrow in unexplainable, inconsequential, incongruous, incremental chunks of time. There was no course of study or meaningful academic pursuit involved with FellowLaborers, just more and more incremental indoctrination.
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DogLover
Interestingly, VPW played that tape for us when I took the Advanced Class at HQ in 1973. I remember to this day Oral saying, "If you don't bow, you won't burn" over and over in that exposition of the record in Daniel of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Very powerful teaching.
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johniam
quote:
If you wish to have a meta-discussion of this practice, please do so on your Soap Box thread. Otherwise, let's get back to topic, shall we?
Sorry, coach. Won't happen again. 10 push ups OK?
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johniam
quote: He even bemoaned being the number two cult when we were behind the Moonies. PFAL 77 "We have to try harder we are number 2"
Number 2? Never saw that one. Every book on cults I ever looked at had the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas firmly positioned at #1 and #2. Then twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong rotated at 3-5. I'm pretty sure VP was being tongue in cheek when he said that.
quote: If there isn't someone equally as charismatic to step in and take over when the big dog dies....the cult usually dies with him. This has pretty much happened with TWI.
So how many people does a cult have to have in order for it to be alive? I'm going to see Walter Cummins next month. He's still got it going on. There's people all over the country and world still into moving the word. It's called the body of Christ.
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skyrider
Yep.....that generic buzz-phrase "moving the word" is wayspeak for running pfal classes or twi-update of the same. All cults got their underworld slang terms for running with the herd. The game of incrementalisim has been going on for a long, long time.
Kinda ironic, isn't it. You come to this forum touting twi doctrine....yet your twi-membership card has been revoked. Then, you mention meeting up with Walter who also doesn't participate there anymore. So, you hide in the shadows and alleyways of the twi-neighborhood for your 'spiritual survival.'
Interesting.
.
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geisha779
You can call it whatever you like.......and I don't know where Walter C has gone in his journey......but, if he is still making the same confessions of faith......he is still embracing something other than Christ.
Have you ever noticed that the epistles are replete with Paul, Peter, and John going after.....not only the teaching but the people who stood outside the church making aberrant confessions and promoting unsound doctrine? The Apostles did not count them among Christ's followers. They used intense language to describe these men as false teachers. These are the people who lead others astray.....and it all boils down to the Jesus they confess and their understanding of the scriptures.
Which group do you think we fell into? The church....or the ones with the unsound doctrine and another Jesus?
What is very revealing to me is that you can still believe that VP knew and loved the God of scripture....that his teaching was more or less sound.......and although he habitually sinned in the flesh it is somehow irrelevant to his relationship with God. If VP had not taught things so opposed to orthodoxy.....I might understand it.....but, he taught things so opposed to sound doctrine.....to a pure understanding of the Lord.....I just don't see anyway around examining his behavior. It reveals his heart and it reveals what he knew and understood about God.
I am not going to be as fast and loose as you are with terms like the Body of Christ.....born-again....or Christian. They now mean something to me.
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