When someone has asked me the question about what makes Christianity different, I have responded that it is the only belief system (or so-called religion) in which the main person in the religion claims to (and indeed has) risen from the dead. The resurrection is what makes the difference.
The statement was made that it's the only belief system involving resurrection of the main character and that this is what sets it apart from all others. Whether any or all of the resurrections actually happened is totally irrelevant to my point.It is NOT the only belief system that focuses on this concept as a major point of doctrine. For what it's worth, I heard Wierwille teach on this in some time and place I can no longer remember. He acknowledged this was true and said all of the other predated examples were counterfeits, arranged by the adversary to dilute the significance of the mystery when and where it would eventually be revealed. It made sense at the time. Now, years later, it just sounds like some kind of mumbo-jumbo, rationalized, concocted attempt to offer an explanation of something for which he really had no honest explanation.
edit: Ever notice how so many things that weren't understood were explained away as being "counterfeit"?
Something else I left out of the story of the old man that might add context to the teacher's remark... She prefaced this with what she was taught as a small child growing up Catholic:
"Why did God make me? To know Him, to love Him, to serve Him in this world, and to be with Him forever in the next."
Maybe if the old man would shut up in the next meeting I might learn a little more about this stuff... Right now I am just learning what an arrogant foot I was while I was involved in TWI.
I still think I will end up classifying myself as a Charismatic Buddhist Catholic Pagan Protestant. But I've never really fit anywhere anyway.
Yesterday my daughter and I walked into an ornate Catholic church in an older section of town. Gorgeous stained glass and beautiful altar complete with marble statues set into a castle-looking backdrop also of carved stone. My daughter, being the precocious three year old she is asked me, "Mom, where's Jesus?"
My answer? "Jesus is everywhere, honey."
My daughter: "No, mom. I think they stuck him in that stupid castle up there."
"i despised jenkinson and how he made that beautiful ranch so horrible"
Amen to that, Excie! I know someone who is still in the Way who was traumatized by him there, as I was. It took me YEARS to get over the four months I spent there because of his hateful abuse.
"i despised jenkinson and how he made that beautiful ranch so horrible"
Amen to that, Excie! I know someone who is still in the Way who was traumatized by him there, as I was. It took me YEARS to get over the four months I spent there because of his hateful abuse.
Yes, jenkinson ran Camp Gunnison with an iron fist, highly regimented.
BUT.......then again, his orders came from wierwille. Knowing that this nice mountainside camp resided on the gushing Gunnison River, people might be inclined to think this was a vacation spot.....hence, more regimented schedules and abuse.
Javajane, a friend of mine now has children in grade school and she and her husband(older parents, long lapsed Catholics) returned to the Church a couple years ago. Their kids are in a catechism class, doing first communion etc. They are very modern birth control using catholics and I asked her how she got along with the more fanatic types and she said it never came up. She can do what she thinks is best and it's non of their business.
So different than TWI, where people where so into each other's business and reported it up the line.
Over the years I have dropped away from the harsh view of the Catholic church I developed in TWi...of the people I count as the best, most admirable people I ever knew, the huge majority were catholic or from a catholic background. That says something, though I am still pondering that...
Bramble, same here... I really had to rethink things when I married my husband. His whole family is Catholic, and they were supportive when we were in TWI, and have been supportive when we were out. A wonderful family who loves unconditionally.
And I love that there is little pressure within the church among the members. People just mind their own business. SUCH a HUGE change from TWI. It's nice to be able to show up for church, be as involved as you want, or not involved... no one there trying to discern your problems or if you are or aren't possessed by what devil spirit.
I also like the community involvement and how they help those who are less fortunate.
Over the years I have dropped away from the harsh view of the Catholic church I developed in TWi...of the people I count as the best, most admirable people I ever knew, the huge majority were catholic or from a catholic background. That says something, though I am still pondering that...
Me too! When we visit my husband's family.... my sister -in-law insists we attend church with her....a really lovely Catholic church. I enjoy it and can relate to much of what is shared. It is not where I want to worship, but I really like to visit and share the experience. The people are great.
In May....I participated in the Last Rites for my half-brother......something I NEVER would have done in TWI. It was so hauntingly human......and oddly beautiful. The Priest was really young and so sweet...and his prayer broke my heart. I don't really believe you can pray someone else into forgiveness while they are unconscious....but, it was the longing and heart behind it that moved me to tears and I added my voice to the prayers.
If I had been in TWI or still of the same mindset.....I shudder to think what I might have done or said. It was at the same half-brother's wedding that I refused to pray the Lord's prayer and was so nasty about the church service. That is when I was in TWI.
I really believe we can heal from that hard, small mindset and again be tender towards others who believe differently. Goodness...I hope so!!
okay okay there are some unbelievably astounding wonderful catholics including myself ha ha ha ha h aha ha
really including many of my family members
i learned of christ there and got born again i believe
then there are those like father butler who (paw doesn't like me to say this so i'll change the wording) did "you know what" to my little brothers' winkies and destroyed their lives for a long time. eventually made them altar boys got them drunk bought them presents (we had no money) etc etc they were pre-pube and coming into pube one has been suicidal and other could never get pleasure unless he went downtown to meet a fella
one brother went and met with the catholic something or other and they didn't believe him
a few years later father butler got exposed and done in woodbridge, nj i believe, at the age of 81
i still have his letter denying everything about my brothers
he had been passed around from parish to parish and ended up in ours before woodbridge or wherever
but god bless everyone
good catholics good cultists good and bad everywhere i believe
Couple weeks ago there was a newspaper article about that all too common scenerio; priest molests boy, gets shuffled around from place to place. Their version of "the ministry not be blamed" I guess. The reporter interviewed other priests about it and one of them said he's afraid to go to soccer games anymore. Doesn't want people to think he has an inappropriate interest in children. That's sad. Most priests are not pedophiles. Just a few bad apples can do a lot of harm.
quote:
he had been passed around from parish to parish
When John Hendricks was alive he said once that 75% of the clergy that surrounds the pope in Rome were priests who couldn't be trusted anywhere else. Don't know if THAT'S true, but there is a problem. From what I hear, Pope Benedict is at least giving lip service to being concerned about it. That's a start.
There is currently a priest in our diocese that is facing child pornography charges. The Archbishop in the area is either completely incompetent and ignorant of anything past the end of his nose, or he was involved in a coverup in the situation. The whole thing is horrible and I feel for the victims and their families. People are pushing for the Archbishop to step down (and I think he should.)
I was sitting in mass on Saturday and the homily was given by a lay minister (I guess a deacon? He is married, and not a priest. I don't know all the titles of everybody yet.) He talked about how he was being tempted to give up on the church due to some recent things that had happened in the area, but that he felt he should stay because even if the church had problems, the church could get through them, and that we could all work for change to make it better.
My hackles went up. Any talk about "commitment" to a "church" just reminds me TOOOOOOO much of my time in TWI when I sacrificed everything and everyone I loved to be committed to the organization I thought represented God. I stopped myself for a minute and told myself to quiet down and listen, to see if there was any difference between this commitment speech and the commitment speeches of TWI.
And there was a difference. Subtle, but there. The difference is that the deacon openly admitted that there was a PROBLEM with the church that needed fixed. He did not say the church makes no mistakes. He did not say the church was perfect, inspired by God, etc. He ADMITTED there was evil, and that the evil caused him to question his faith. There was no talk of what would happen if he left the Catholic church, no talk about how the devil would attack him and his family. Nothing like that at all. In fact he said we all should strive to make the church better.
In TWI it would have been completely different... after all TWI doesn't make mistakes.
My hackles went up. Any talk about "commitment" to a "church" just reminds me TOOOOOOO much of my time in TWI when I sacrificed everything and everyone I loved to be committed to the organization I thought represented God. I stopped myself for a minute and told myself to quiet down and listen, to see if there was any difference between this commitment speech and the commitment speeches of TWI.
I don't know JJ... Even when I was in TWI I can recall a few times, yes they were only few, but that the uppers admitted there was a mistake. They allowed it, and now we needed to stand together for the sake of the "CHURCH".. Typical drivel if you ask me when someone is caught, to try and save position, I mean face...
I just don't buy it anymore. The true church(the people) don't need an organization to promote itself or Christ. I'm not saying an organization can't help, but it certainly isn't necessary IMHO, but at least 9 times out of 10 (I want to say all 10, but statistics.. lol), that organization ends up corrupt, if not from the original founders, then the successors..
I don't think I explained myself well, Trust... I'm not saying that we SHOULD be committed to any organization. That is a bad idea all the way around. I just waned to point out some differences in the way the topic was approached. This was not "upper leadership" - not even a priest - and he was allowed to get up there and say that because the upper people handled things wrongly he questioned staying with the group. I have never heard an assistant fellowship coordinator (actually, in this case it's more like an Arvanced Class Grad who teaches at fellowship once in a while) get up and openly question how upper leadership handled a situation in meeting while his WC fellowship coordinator was present.
I do not believe that the Catholic church is the one and only true church. I don't think any organization can claim that. Never again will I commit myself o any organization the way I did with TWI.
And I will probably still call myself Buddhist Catholic Pagan...
And I might even go to a psychic fair later this month.
(oooooooooh.... Living on the spiritual edge of sanity! He devil spirits must have taken control of my life!!! Oh noes!)
Sorry for all the typos... I'm on my iPhone (RIP Steve Jobs) and if I type a big long post it won't let me get back to the part that doesnt fit in the window... And damn the autocorrect to heck!!!!
LCM heard of someone with 1000 different sex partners a year? Well, it's good to have a goal.
(Helpful hint for you bro: if you close your eyes and use your left hand instead of your right, it sorta feels like someone else. I read that in a book.)
And I will probably still call myself Buddhist Catholic Pagan...
And I might even go to a psychic fair later this month.
I have a few more descriptions for myself..
christian, spiritualist, scientologist. Gawd forbid, scientologist.. despite tom cruises arrogance and nastiness and L ron's insanity, I find a *little* worthwhile in their religion. Will I join? Nooooooooo...
I can see the redeeming factors of an organization that promotes some kind of tradition as well..
will I join?
You have a good point here.. how many times can you really "join".. maybe only once.
god have mercy on the organization that betrays your trust..
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waysider
This is not completely accurate.
HERE
HERE
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WordWolf
Actually, Waysider,
the majority of those examples are supposedly mortals incidental to a religion (like Adonis) who
were claimed to have been made immortal for some purpose-
and who is taken away to live amongst the gods immediately.
So, no eyewitness accounts of people interacting with them- they exit the story and all evidence
of any special treatment exits with them.
In each of the cases, the actual historical existence of such a person who was granted
immortality and came back to earth is not supported nor even supposed.
The idea that someone (like Jesus) actually coming back and interacting with lots of
eyewitnesses for over a month is controversial, and is singular in actually being supported
by the eyewitnesses. We had people claiming to have personally interacted with him afterwards,
who insisted on maintaining this account even when facing painful death for claiming it.
It's difficult to find people willing to face certain death on account of supporting a claim
they KNOW to be a lie (like "I saw him alive and interacted with him.)
So, claims for similar people who are documented to have existed are pretty sparse.
I imagine you can find a nut here and there, but not whole bunches of people all holding
to such a story.
Meanwhile, can we leave this discussion for the Doctrinal forum and return to this thread's subject?
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excathedra
meanwhile, back at the farm lol
okay waysider ;)
i'm happy for javaj and others. i have absolutely no interest in any religion, teachings, etc.
raised a catholic changed to the way cult
now nothing and quite fine with it
--
oops i think that was supposed meanwhile back at the ranch not farm
i despised jenkinson and how he made that beautiful ranch so horrible derail choo choo
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waysider
WW
The point I was addressing was simply this:
The statement was made that it's the only belief system involving resurrection of the main character and that this is what sets it apart from all others. Whether any or all of the resurrections actually happened is totally irrelevant to my point.It is NOT the only belief system that focuses on this concept as a major point of doctrine. For what it's worth, I heard Wierwille teach on this in some time and place I can no longer remember. He acknowledged this was true and said all of the other predated examples were counterfeits, arranged by the adversary to dilute the significance of the mystery when and where it would eventually be revealed. It made sense at the time. Now, years later, it just sounds like some kind of mumbo-jumbo, rationalized, concocted attempt to offer an explanation of something for which he really had no honest explanation.
edit: Ever notice how so many things that weren't understood were explained away as being "counterfeit"?
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JavaJane
Something else I left out of the story of the old man that might add context to the teacher's remark... She prefaced this with what she was taught as a small child growing up Catholic:
"Why did God make me? To know Him, to love Him, to serve Him in this world, and to be with Him forever in the next."
Maybe if the old man would shut up in the next meeting I might learn a little more about this stuff... Right now I am just learning what an arrogant foot I was while I was involved in TWI.
I still think I will end up classifying myself as a Charismatic Buddhist Catholic Pagan Protestant. But I've never really fit anywhere anyway.
BTW, the zombie dreams stopped. For now.
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JavaJane
Something *kinda*
...
Yesterday my daughter and I walked into an ornate Catholic church in an older section of town. Gorgeous stained glass and beautiful altar complete with marble statues set into a castle-looking backdrop also of carved stone. My daughter, being the precocious three year old she is asked me, "Mom, where's Jesus?"
My answer? "Jesus is everywhere, honey."
My daughter: "No, mom. I think they stuck him in that stupid castle up there."
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DogLover
"i despised jenkinson and how he made that beautiful ranch so horrible"
Amen to that, Excie! I know someone who is still in the Way who was traumatized by him there, as I was. It took me YEARS to get over the four months I spent there because of his hateful abuse.
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skyrider
Yes, jenkinson ran Camp Gunnison with an iron fist, highly regimented.
BUT.......then again, his orders came from wierwille. Knowing that this nice mountainside camp resided on the gushing Gunnison River, people might be inclined to think this was a vacation spot.....hence, more regimented schedules and abuse.
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Bramble
Javajane, a friend of mine now has children in grade school and she and her husband(older parents, long lapsed Catholics) returned to the Church a couple years ago. Their kids are in a catechism class, doing first communion etc. They are very modern birth control using catholics and I asked her how she got along with the more fanatic types and she said it never came up. She can do what she thinks is best and it's non of their business.
So different than TWI, where people where so into each other's business and reported it up the line.
Over the years I have dropped away from the harsh view of the Catholic church I developed in TWi...of the people I count as the best, most admirable people I ever knew, the huge majority were catholic or from a catholic background. That says something, though I am still pondering that...
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JavaJane
Bramble, same here... I really had to rethink things when I married my husband. His whole family is Catholic, and they were supportive when we were in TWI, and have been supportive when we were out. A wonderful family who loves unconditionally.
And I love that there is little pressure within the church among the members. People just mind their own business. SUCH a HUGE change from TWI. It's nice to be able to show up for church, be as involved as you want, or not involved... no one there trying to discern your problems or if you are or aren't possessed by what devil spirit.
I also like the community involvement and how they help those who are less fortunate.
A heck of a lot more "Christ-like" than TWI!
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geisha779
Me too! When we visit my husband's family.... my sister -in-law insists we attend church with her....a really lovely Catholic church. I enjoy it and can relate to much of what is shared. It is not where I want to worship, but I really like to visit and share the experience. The people are great.
In May....I participated in the Last Rites for my half-brother......something I NEVER would have done in TWI. It was so hauntingly human......and oddly beautiful. The Priest was really young and so sweet...and his prayer broke my heart. I don't really believe you can pray someone else into forgiveness while they are unconscious....but, it was the longing and heart behind it that moved me to tears and I added my voice to the prayers.
If I had been in TWI or still of the same mindset.....I shudder to think what I might have done or said. It was at the same half-brother's wedding that I refused to pray the Lord's prayer and was so nasty about the church service. That is when I was in TWI.
I really believe we can heal from that hard, small mindset and again be tender towards others who believe differently. Goodness...I hope so!!
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excathedra
okay okay there are some unbelievably astounding wonderful catholics including myself ha ha ha ha h aha ha
really including many of my family members
i learned of christ there and got born again i believe
then there are those like father butler who (paw doesn't like me to say this so i'll change the wording) did "you know what" to my little brothers' winkies and destroyed their lives for a long time. eventually made them altar boys got them drunk bought them presents (we had no money) etc etc they were pre-pube and coming into pube one has been suicidal and other could never get pleasure unless he went downtown to meet a fella
one brother went and met with the catholic something or other and they didn't believe him
a few years later father butler got exposed and done in woodbridge, nj i believe, at the age of 81
i still have his letter denying everything about my brothers
he had been passed around from parish to parish and ended up in ours before woodbridge or wherever
but god bless everyone
good catholics good cultists good and bad everywhere i believe
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Bramble
Hopefully now it will be harder for sexual predators to hide behind the priest mask. But it sure worked for a lot of them for awhile.
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johniam
Couple weeks ago there was a newspaper article about that all too common scenerio; priest molests boy, gets shuffled around from place to place. Their version of "the ministry not be blamed" I guess. The reporter interviewed other priests about it and one of them said he's afraid to go to soccer games anymore. Doesn't want people to think he has an inappropriate interest in children. That's sad. Most priests are not pedophiles. Just a few bad apples can do a lot of harm.
quote:
he had been passed around from parish to parish
When John Hendricks was alive he said once that 75% of the clergy that surrounds the pope in Rome were priests who couldn't be trusted anywhere else. Don't know if THAT'S true, but there is a problem. From what I hear, Pope Benedict is at least giving lip service to being concerned about it. That's a start.
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WordWolf
I'm certain there's a problem.
However, 75% is a ridiculous number, and twi members are fond of making up or
passing along made-up "facts" and statistical numbers that can't be found anywhere
as a reliable source. I heard quite a few of them when I was in (which wasn't
a huge amount of time), and I've heard a number come from them since I left.
lcm once claimed he heard of a certain type of person who AVERAGED (meaning some
were MORE and some less) 1000 DIFFERENT sex partners a year.
Stop and think that through. There's 365 days in a year. That means they'd have to
AVERAGE more than 14 DIFFERENT sex partners every week. Even if you wanted to,
who has TIME to do that, and who could find that many willing partners?
(Maybe someone could set a perverted goal for a week and find 14 sex partners,
but by the next week that's not so much fun anymore. By the end of the month,
you'd think of taking up stamp collecting or some other hobby. It's like a diet
of nothing BUT your favorite food-even if you could survive it, you'd get tired
of it.)
If there was some RELIABLE source, I'd consider the possibility. However, there's
much more likely reasons for someone to be close to the Pope-
A) hierarchical ambition. All groups have people with that.
B) Zeal. A dedicated adherent to the Roman Catholic Church would consider working
close to the Pope as holy a duty as they could perform.
(It worked for small-time hustlers like vpw, it works in all religious groups.)
C) Talent. The best people for different jobs were promoted to them.
D) Favoritism. A friend of a Pope or Cardinal could be promoted up. People like
to work with people friendly to them.
All of those are common, obvious reasons. No need to invent all sorts of
criminal accusations on someone just because they work for the Pope.
In twi, besides making stuff up, making stuff up specifically to have an
excuse to condemn other Christians is standard operating procedure,
as is passing along empty rumors that do the same.
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excathedra
it's so hard to think about statistics when you're one of them
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chockfull
That's because 83.6% of all statistics are made up on the fly. Wait, 83.61%.
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JavaJane
There is currently a priest in our diocese that is facing child pornography charges. The Archbishop in the area is either completely incompetent and ignorant of anything past the end of his nose, or he was involved in a coverup in the situation. The whole thing is horrible and I feel for the victims and their families. People are pushing for the Archbishop to step down (and I think he should.)
I was sitting in mass on Saturday and the homily was given by a lay minister (I guess a deacon? He is married, and not a priest. I don't know all the titles of everybody yet.) He talked about how he was being tempted to give up on the church due to some recent things that had happened in the area, but that he felt he should stay because even if the church had problems, the church could get through them, and that we could all work for change to make it better.
My hackles went up. Any talk about "commitment" to a "church" just reminds me TOOOOOOO much of my time in TWI when I sacrificed everything and everyone I loved to be committed to the organization I thought represented God. I stopped myself for a minute and told myself to quiet down and listen, to see if there was any difference between this commitment speech and the commitment speeches of TWI.
And there was a difference. Subtle, but there. The difference is that the deacon openly admitted that there was a PROBLEM with the church that needed fixed. He did not say the church makes no mistakes. He did not say the church was perfect, inspired by God, etc. He ADMITTED there was evil, and that the evil caused him to question his faith. There was no talk of what would happen if he left the Catholic church, no talk about how the devil would attack him and his family. Nothing like that at all. In fact he said we all should strive to make the church better.
In TWI it would have been completely different... after all TWI doesn't make mistakes.
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TrustAndObey
I don't know JJ... Even when I was in TWI I can recall a few times, yes they were only few, but that the uppers admitted there was a mistake. They allowed it, and now we needed to stand together for the sake of the "CHURCH".. Typical drivel if you ask me when someone is caught, to try and save position, I mean face...
I just don't buy it anymore. The true church(the people) don't need an organization to promote itself or Christ. I'm not saying an organization can't help, but it certainly isn't necessary IMHO, but at least 9 times out of 10 (I want to say all 10, but statistics.. lol), that organization ends up corrupt, if not from the original founders, then the successors..
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JavaJane
I don't think I explained myself well, Trust... I'm not saying that we SHOULD be committed to any organization. That is a bad idea all the way around. I just waned to point out some differences in the way the topic was approached. This was not "upper leadership" - not even a priest - and he was allowed to get up there and say that because the upper people handled things wrongly he questioned staying with the group. I have never heard an assistant fellowship coordinator (actually, in this case it's more like an Arvanced Class Grad who teaches at fellowship once in a while) get up and openly question how upper leadership handled a situation in meeting while his WC fellowship coordinator was present.
I do not believe that the Catholic church is the one and only true church. I don't think any organization can claim that. Never again will I commit myself o any organization the way I did with TWI.
And I will probably still call myself Buddhist Catholic Pagan...
And I might even go to a psychic fair later this month.
(oooooooooh.... Living on the spiritual edge of sanity! He devil spirits must have taken control of my life!!! Oh noes!)
Sorry for all the typos... I'm on my iPhone (RIP Steve Jobs) and if I type a big long post it won't let me get back to the part that doesnt fit in the window... And damn the autocorrect to heck!!!!
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OperaBuff
LCM heard of someone with 1000 different sex partners a year? Well, it's good to have a goal.
(Helpful hint for you bro: if you close your eyes and use your left hand instead of your right, it sorta feels like someone else. I read that in a book.)
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Ham
I have a few more descriptions for myself..
christian, spiritualist, scientologist. Gawd forbid, scientologist.. despite tom cruises arrogance and nastiness and L ron's insanity, I find a *little* worthwhile in their religion. Will I join? Nooooooooo...
I can see the redeeming factors of an organization that promotes some kind of tradition as well..
will I join?
You have a good point here.. how many times can you really "join".. maybe only once.
god have mercy on the organization that betrays your trust..
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Ham
Joining and all..
you know it cuts both ways.
*they* are going to have to spend some kind of eternity with an unclean Squirrel. He is very large.. lucky for you, not rabid..
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