If Genesis if the theme of the entire Bible, the first Scriptures about holy spirit should set the tone for the entire revelation thereof. Unfortunately, there's not much there. Of the first seven uses of the word ruach in Genesis, none of them deals with the phenomenon of God anointing people. All but two reference the spirt of God or the breath of life.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit(ruach) of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3:6 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool(ruach) of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath(ruach)of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath (ruach)of life.
7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath(ruach)of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.
8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that [was] with him in the ark: and God made a wind(ruach)to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
Perhaps the theme is established in 1:2 by the reference spirit of God. That's a pretty broad theme. All life comes from God who is spirit. There may be different kinds of spirit life, but God gives all of it according to his will. Somewhere in the variations on that theme are where we find the questions concerning the Comforter. :-)
someone said "More importantly to the topic at hand, there is no reference in the Old Testament to a believer being able to manifest holy spirit at will.. They did so according to God's timetable, with God's permission. " so you think not me
the Holy spirit was just as must manifested in the Old Testament as the new
someone said "More importantly to the topic at hand, there is no reference in the Old Testament to a believer being able to manifest holy spirit at will.. They did so according to God's timetable, with God's permission. " so you think not me
the Holy spirit was just as must manifested in the Old Testament as the new
I see it all over the old
and all over the new
that just way-like thinking
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Examples please. Where in the OT do you see evidence that people could manifest holy spirit at will regardless of whether it was in accordance with God's will? I may be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. :-)
This is the word translated as "comforter" and you'll see it appears only 5 times:
=================
The KJV New Testament Greek LexiconStrong's Number: 3875
Original Word paravklhtoß a root word
Transliterated Word Parakletos
Phonetic Spellingpar-ak'-lay-tos
Parts of Speech Noun Masculine
Definition
summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
[*] in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
King James Word Usage - Total: 5 comforter 4, advocate 1
=================
If you read this as "another advocate" or "another to speak up for us" - that gives you an entirely different sort of understanding. The "Comforter" isn't some sort of big warm blanket, or a hug from a friend.
Jesus himself prayed, asked of his Father, spoke up for, his disciples in his physical lifetime on earth. There are enough records of this to know that speaking up for his disciples to his Father wasn't an occasional event or something he did on an ad hoc basis. He did it regularly and committedly. He was the first "comforter" and, as he says in John 16:7, "another comforter" (holy spirit, Jn 14:26) won't come unless he, JC, goes.
Paraklesis is derived from parakaleo (Strongs 3870), to call near, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation); beseech, call for exhort, intreat, pray.
Knowing you have someone there, standing with you, standing by you no matter how stupid you've been, someone always ready to take your side, hold your hand - now that's a real comfort. We derive such comfort from being spoken up for, defended. Comfort from being loved...unconditionally...by someone who's always rooting for you.
Dreaming a dream isn't speaking in tongues, although if memory serves, Earl Burton made that analogy in the Intermediate class.
When God sends someone a dream, it's more akin to word of knowledge or word of wisdom.IMHO. It's a form of revelation.
But I guess you could say that Joseph had control of whether or not he was going to speak what God had given him. I still don't quite see that as analagous to being able to speak in tongues, even if it's ill advised; like some Pentecostals do.
cman did not Joseph want to sleep dreaming is a part of sleep hid not Moses climb the mountain to hear from God when witness the burning bush they took desire to hear from God
Jbarrax yes Joseph had the desire to hear from God but speaking tongues is how one speaks do you put the pictures in your mind do you not make every sound do you make every picture you saw and the oldest tongues is in picture form the art on cave walls
cman did not Joseph want to sleep dreaming is a part of sleep hid not Moses climb the mountain to hear from God when witness the burning bush they took desire to hear from God
Jbarrax yes Joseph had the desire to hear from God but speaking tongues is how one speaks do you put the pictures in your mind do you not make every sound do you make every picture you saw and the oldest tongues is in picture form the art on cave walls
I don't think dreams or anything in the spirit is limited to 1 manifestation.
Or whenever the spirit shows us, or does something,
there is a lot going on, but I don't dissect it.
I wouldn't even try and dissect the spirit into 9 manife-whatevers.. What, just cause 9 are listed in 1 Cor, that's all the capabilities?! I think the spirit/God is much bigger and capable than that. More than we could ask or think or relate or describe or hypothesize. And with no verse saying the number of these shall be nineteen, thus the number shall be nineteen.. !plop! Oopps, sorry, nine it shall be... Not ten anymore, or eight, unless you continue to nine.. Yeah. I just don't see the need to splitting and spit and sputter and whatever....
'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever'
Christ died as scripture says.....so seems there would be another.
Is it different, the same or what?
Questions, thoughts, seen it?
Hi cman. I haven't read the rest of the posts, but here is what I see as the answer.
In the same context as the scripture you quoted, Jesus said he would not leave us alone, but he would come unto us - the same context. So Jesus was the first comforter & he came to us in the coming of the other comforter that came on Pentecost - the one spirit. Those with the one spirit make up the one body with Jesus as the head. I mean, no?
Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus.
So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter.
What Jesus said as recorded in the gospel of John is this:....Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
There is a caveat to receiving the Spirit.....at least according to Jesus.....that is to believe in Him. I don't see where the Christian scriptures reveal all having a sleeping or dormant Spirit. If you are using a source other than the bible or you have another way of looking at the scriptures would you consider articulating? If one believes the infinite picture is Christ centered, as I believe the bible reveals.....He is before all things, and in him all things hold together....then one would have to believe in Him before they see or receive anything...no?
As for Jesus being the Christ.....the messiah, the anointed one.....the redeemer.....John said this; Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
I do believe Jesus is the eternal Son of God cman......but the scriptures tell us this about what He did and became.....
So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I really don't want to put words in your mouth that are not there but when you say that "Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus. So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter." To my ears it sounds like you are implying that Jesus is not the one and only Messiah or anointed one....the Christ. Am I reading this wrong?
If you look at Jesus' loving and comforting word to His beloved disciples.....He is telling them He won't leave them orphaned. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
He won't be there in bodily form, the world won't see Him anymore but they will see Him? We have Him in a better form....I guess I would have to start writing about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...being One God to continue on.....I try to avoid that topic here. But, I do believe Jesus is speaking of another comforter, other than Himself in bodily form.
so you are saying i have to do something to get something from god?
it depends on what i do?
I was quoting Jesus and then John. It was Jesus who said .......Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
When asked directly Jesus also said......
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
That is not earning one's salvation or works for salvation....this is what is required to be saved......faith. Looking at a little more closely we see that it is God who gives us the faith to believe.... that faith comes from hearing.....but yeah....one must believe in Him to receive anything. It is what the scriptures tell us. Paul laid it out in pretty good detail.
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
And yes, I am with you....I don't believe I move the Spirit...but rather it is as He the Spirit wills. :)
cause anything but 'saved' is an illusion/not real
cman, it is God's desire that we don't sin......do we? It was not God's will for Israel to have a king, but He gave them one. It was God's will that Israel be let go in Egypt, yet He hardened a heart so they were not immediately released. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree that they did? He distinctly said He didn't want that.
For someone who rejects God....is heaven going to be heaven? Is God going to force it on them?
I understand the Universalist position and I am sympathetic....and if there were just a few verses of scripture in the bible...no problem. But things like the verse about God wanting all men to be saved have to be understood in light of the whole.
Jesus clearly told us that many would perish. He even said some who called Him Lord Lord would be denied. The epistle of John speaks of the spirit of anti-Christ in relation to a persons confession of faith.....Jesus spoke of hell at great length.
Taking a couple of verses from scripture and making a doctrine is no way to understand how God's entire counsel is intended... in my opinion. That is me. I will say I have wrestled with this very topic, but for me, there is a greater understanding to be had in the entire wisdom of God's word....a reason we cannot please God without faith.
There is incredible value in the hefty price of our redemption....in the cross.....and it is worthy of our faith. It requires it.
I will leave it at that ... I am not going to try and convince you of anything. :)
Throwing verses from a book around is a mindless task.
As if it's the last word on a subject.
Till we question it's intent.
Not quite sure what you mean...but, if you are putting forth the idea that all are saved and that all have the spirit....that is a definite set of beliefs......and you are promoting a doctrine whether you realize it or not.
I am also not sure what you mean by " throwing verses from a book", but studying the scriptures and the words of Jesus is not a mindless task. The mind is very engaged unless one is ensnared in a mind numbing cult.
And actually, if one puts their faith in the Lord Jesus and He is the Lord of their life....then His words are really the first and last word on the subject. I don't believe the scriptures just because......I have taken the time to examine them and how they came to be and I have a high confidence in them. They have borne out in my life.
I don't really have to question Jesus' intent....it is clearly articulated....He made distinct claims and had a distinct purpose....I can either believe Him or not. I can trust Him or not. I had better use my mind as well as my heart when deciding what to believe or I could end up right back in TWI. :)
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Jbarrax
Nice analogy.
If Genesis if the theme of the entire Bible, the first Scriptures about holy spirit should set the tone for the entire revelation thereof. Unfortunately, there's not much there. Of the first seven uses of the word ruach in Genesis, none of them deals with the phenomenon of God anointing people. All but two reference the spirt of God or the breath of life.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit(ruach) of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3:6 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool(ruach) of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath(ruach)of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath (ruach)of life.
7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath(ruach)of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.
8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that [was] with him in the ark: and God made a wind(ruach)to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
Perhaps the theme is established in 1:2 by the reference spirit of God. That's a pretty broad theme. All life comes from God who is spirit. There may be different kinds of spirit life, but God gives all of it according to his will. Somewhere in the variations on that theme are where we find the questions concerning the Comforter. :-)
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
someone said "More importantly to the topic at hand, there is no reference in the Old Testament to a believer being able to manifest holy spirit at will.. They did so according to God's timetable, with God's permission. " so you think not me
the Holy spirit was just as must manifested in the Old Testament as the new
I see it all over the old
and all over the new
that just way-like thinking
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Jbarrax
Examples please. Where in the OT do you see evidence that people could manifest holy spirit at will regardless of whether it was in accordance with God's will? I may be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. :-)
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Twinky
This is the word translated as "comforter" and you'll see it appears only 5 times:
=================
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3875
Original Word paravklhtoß a root word
Transliterated Word Parakletos
Phonetic Spelling par-ak'-lay-tos
Parts of Speech Noun Masculine
Definition
- summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
- one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
- one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
- of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
- of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
Edited by Twinky[*] in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
King James Word Usage - Total: 5 comforter 4, advocate 1
=================
If you read this as "another advocate" or "another to speak up for us" - that gives you an entirely different sort of understanding. The "Comforter" isn't some sort of big warm blanket, or a hug from a friend.
Jesus himself prayed, asked of his Father, spoke up for, his disciples in his physical lifetime on earth. There are enough records of this to know that speaking up for his disciples to his Father wasn't an occasional event or something he did on an ad hoc basis. He did it regularly and committedly. He was the first "comforter" and, as he says in John 16:7, "another comforter" (holy spirit, Jn 14:26) won't come unless he, JC, goes.
Paraklesis is derived from parakaleo (Strongs 3870), to call near, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation); beseech, call for exhort, intreat, pray.
Knowing you have someone there, standing with you, standing by you no matter how stupid you've been, someone always ready to take your side, hold your hand - now that's a real comfort. We derive such comfort from being spoken up for, defended. Comfort from being loved...unconditionally...by someone who's always rooting for you.
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cman
Thanks Twinky, for looking it up and how you see this subject as well.
Jerry, Roy, I think you are both saying the same thing, that it's
God not us, igniting the spirit to work in us.
Not sure, but a darn language barrier thing I believe.
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year2027
God first
thanks Jbarrax
Genesis 37: 5 ¶ And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
speaking in tongues = dreamed a dream
later Joseph Interprets the dream in Prisoners' Dreams which the interpretation of tongues
at will or Joseph"s control
his mind wanted to hear from God and his mind wanted to give the interpretation
it that simple
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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cman
Joseph's control would be in speaking or not.
The content was not of his doing, alone.
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Jbarrax
Interesting post, Twinky. Thanks for the insight!
Dreaming a dream isn't speaking in tongues, although if memory serves, Earl Burton made that analogy in the Intermediate class.
When God sends someone a dream, it's more akin to word of knowledge or word of wisdom.IMHO. It's a form of revelation.
But I guess you could say that Joseph had control of whether or not he was going to speak what God had given him. I still don't quite see that as analagous to being able to speak in tongues, even if it's ill advised; like some Pentecostals do.
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year2027
God first
thanks cman and Jbarrax
cman did not Joseph want to sleep dreaming is a part of sleep hid not Moses climb the mountain to hear from God when witness the burning bush they took desire to hear from God
Jbarrax yes Joseph had the desire to hear from God but speaking tongues is how one speaks do you put the pictures in your mind do you not make every sound do you make every picture you saw and the oldest tongues is in picture form the art on cave walls
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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year2027
God first
thanks cman and Jbarrax
cman did not Joseph want to sleep dreaming is a part of sleep hid not Moses climb the mountain to hear from God when witness the burning bush they took desire to hear from God
Jbarrax yes Joseph had the desire to hear from God but speaking tongues is how one speaks do you put the pictures in your mind do you not make every sound do you make every picture you saw and the oldest tongues is in picture form the art on cave walls
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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cman
I don't think dreams or anything in the spirit is limited to 1 manifestation.
Or whenever the spirit shows us, or does something,
there is a lot going on, but I don't dissect it.
Just some general observations and experience is worth talking about.
Like the stuff Twinky posted is good background things to consider.
But I would not stake my life on any definition of 'another Comforter'.
The pictures in my mind of spirit things can't be held by limitations.
Or I feel like stuck in a rut, and can't see past what I may think.
So I value input from others greatly,
may not agree at the time, but it could inspire other thoughts as well.
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Jbarrax
That's the beauty of the online community. :-)
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krys
thanks twinky!
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TrustAndObey
I wouldn't even try and dissect the spirit into 9 manife-whatevers.. What, just cause 9 are listed in 1 Cor, that's all the capabilities?! I think the spirit/God is much bigger and capable than that. More than we could ask or think or relate or describe or hypothesize. And with no verse saying the number of these shall be nineteen, thus the number shall be nineteen.. !plop! Oopps, sorry, nine it shall be... Not ten anymore, or eight, unless you continue to nine.. Yeah. I just don't see the need to splitting and spit and sputter and whatever....
Now I'm babbling , I know..
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cman
I agree T&O.
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Tom
Hi cman. I haven't read the rest of the posts, but here is what I see as the answer.
In the same context as the scripture you quoted, Jesus said he would not leave us alone, but he would come unto us - the same context. So Jesus was the first comforter & he came to us in the coming of the other comforter that came on Pentecost - the one spirit. Those with the one spirit make up the one body with Jesus as the head. I mean, no?
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cman
Thanks Tom, for responding here.
I believe all have the spirit though.
For some it is still sleeping.
Aroused occasionally and awakened in others.
To see part of an infinite picture.
Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus.
So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter.
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geisha779
What Jesus said as recorded in the gospel of John is this:....Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
There is a caveat to receiving the Spirit.....at least according to Jesus.....that is to believe in Him. I don't see where the Christian scriptures reveal all having a sleeping or dormant Spirit. If you are using a source other than the bible or you have another way of looking at the scriptures would you consider articulating? If one believes the infinite picture is Christ centered, as I believe the bible reveals.....He is before all things, and in him all things hold together....then one would have to believe in Him before they see or receive anything...no?
As for Jesus being the Christ.....the messiah, the anointed one.....the redeemer.....John said this; Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
I do believe Jesus is the eternal Son of God cman......but the scriptures tell us this about what He did and became.....
So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I really don't want to put words in your mouth that are not there but when you say that "Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus. So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter." To my ears it sounds like you are implying that Jesus is not the one and only Messiah or anointed one....the Christ. Am I reading this wrong?
If you look at Jesus' loving and comforting word to His beloved disciples.....He is telling them He won't leave them orphaned. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
He won't be there in bodily form, the world won't see Him anymore but they will see Him? We have Him in a better form....I guess I would have to start writing about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...being One God to continue on.....I try to avoid that topic here. But, I do believe Jesus is speaking of another comforter, other than Himself in bodily form.
Hope that made sense!
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cman
so you are saying i have to do something to get something from god?
it depends on what i do?
and yes i think there many anointed
sleep is figurative
i think the spirit will move at god's command not mine
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geisha779
I was quoting Jesus and then John. It was Jesus who said .......Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
When asked directly Jesus also said......
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
That is not earning one's salvation or works for salvation....this is what is required to be saved......faith. Looking at a little more closely we see that it is God who gives us the faith to believe.... that faith comes from hearing.....but yeah....one must believe in Him to receive anything. It is what the scriptures tell us. Paul laid it out in pretty good detail.
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
And yes, I am with you....I don't believe I move the Spirit...but rather it is as He the Spirit wills. :)
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cman
and the will of God is all to be saved
anyone going to stop him?
your will? don't think so
and i know you did not state that
in the long run there is no escape
cause anything but 'saved' is an illusion/not real
thanks for that, and the spirit will move in each of us in it's own time
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geisha779
cman, it is God's desire that we don't sin......do we? It was not God's will for Israel to have a king, but He gave them one. It was God's will that Israel be let go in Egypt, yet He hardened a heart so they were not immediately released. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree that they did? He distinctly said He didn't want that.
For someone who rejects God....is heaven going to be heaven? Is God going to force it on them?
I understand the Universalist position and I am sympathetic....and if there were just a few verses of scripture in the bible...no problem. But things like the verse about God wanting all men to be saved have to be understood in light of the whole.
Jesus clearly told us that many would perish. He even said some who called Him Lord Lord would be denied. The epistle of John speaks of the spirit of anti-Christ in relation to a persons confession of faith.....Jesus spoke of hell at great length.
Taking a couple of verses from scripture and making a doctrine is no way to understand how God's entire counsel is intended... in my opinion. That is me. I will say I have wrestled with this very topic, but for me, there is a greater understanding to be had in the entire wisdom of God's word....a reason we cannot please God without faith.
There is incredible value in the hefty price of our redemption....in the cross.....and it is worthy of our faith. It requires it.
I will leave it at that ... I am not going to try and convince you of anything. :)
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cman
I promote no doctrine.
But all will die, that is certain.
And all our bs with it.
Throwing verses from a book around is a mindless task.
As if it's the last word on a subject.
Till we question it's intent.
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geisha779
Not quite sure what you mean...but, if you are putting forth the idea that all are saved and that all have the spirit....that is a definite set of beliefs......and you are promoting a doctrine whether you realize it or not.
I am also not sure what you mean by " throwing verses from a book", but studying the scriptures and the words of Jesus is not a mindless task. The mind is very engaged unless one is ensnared in a mind numbing cult.
And actually, if one puts their faith in the Lord Jesus and He is the Lord of their life....then His words are really the first and last word on the subject. I don't believe the scriptures just because......I have taken the time to examine them and how they came to be and I have a high confidence in them. They have borne out in my life.
I don't really have to question Jesus' intent....it is clearly articulated....He made distinct claims and had a distinct purpose....I can either believe Him or not. I can trust Him or not. I had better use my mind as well as my heart when deciding what to believe or I could end up right back in TWI. :)
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