I like the observation about slavery. ""Slavery was not as bad as it was made out to be. They were in loving households and were taken care of."
You have to wonder what was in their Idiot Juice that morning that pushed that particular person to the edge of sanity and then having given their sorry as s a good kick, sent it over into the canyons of insanity. Whatever it was it must have tasted really good.
I suppose the idea of being kidnapped and taken to another country where you lived - if you survived - with a "loving household" that "took care of you" wasn't all that bad. Plus, having a dollar value placed on your body must have been been a confidence builder. Some people never know their own worth. Slaves had it tagged coming out of the gate. Who wouldn't appreciate that kind of attention?
I don't give a s hit what the context was, that statement alone is so laden with layers of anti-value it glows like kryptonite to the brain. Hearing it should have come with a warning that actual brain cells will be destroyed in the process of hearing it and attempting to reckon it, so try to expose an area you won't need for the next class, like the frontal lobe.
Don't forget there was also a nice, relaxing boat ride across the Atlantic Ocean prior to being sold as property to "a loving family".
I remember LCM teaching Exodus (no, not the one where everybody leaves TWI), and saying that if the midwives lied about the Hebrew boys, it was because God told them to. You could have heard a pin drop in the big tent. But it didn't take long for the "faithful" to swallow it. My assistant TC remarked after the teaching about this new "revelation." I pointed out that the Bible says it's impossible for God to lie, so how could He give "revelation" to do so? Plenty of believers lied in the OT, and it often worked out for the best; but they weren't spouting God's words!
George
Okay George you just brought up a topic I've thought about a lot. By the way, I'll admit this is off topic and we'll take it to another thread if need be but I have a question for you. If you know for a fact that someone is going to take the truth you tell them to commit an act of murder, would it not be appropriate to lie in such an instance? This is akin to the holocaust when the Nazi's would ask gentiles if they had any Jews in their house. Had the Gentiles said yes, they knew the Nazis would cart them off to a concentration camps where they would be executed. Was it not more appropriate to commit a lesser "sin" to prevent a greater one? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Please understand that I'm not defending LCM. I am, I thinking, making a case for why in specific cases it might be appropriate to commit a lesser sin to prevent a greater one.
While I see your point, somehow, I can't bring myself to accept that Wierwille was on a plane of equality with any of these examples.
You might if you were still a follower of TWI. And it's not just VP we're talking about. What about other TWI leaders? Some of them were good folk. If I were a Catholic, I might stand for a priest or bishop, even though some (other) priests and bishops are child molesters.
George
Okay George you just brought up a topic I've thought about a lot. By the way, I'll admit this is off topic and we'll take it to another thread if need be but I have a question for you. If you know for a fact that someone is going to take the truth you tell them to commit an act of murder, would it not be appropriate to lie in such an instance? This is akin to the holocaust when the Nazi's would ask gentiles if they had any Jews in their house. Had the Gentiles said yes, they knew the Nazis would cart them off to a concentration camps where they would be executed. Was it not more appropriate to commit a lesser "sin" to prevent a greater one? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Please understand that I'm not defending LCM. I am, I thinking, making a case for why in specific cases it might be appropriate to commit a lesser sin to prevent a greater one.
I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that the God of the Bible can't lie. Unless, of course, He was lying when He gave THAT revelation...
I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that the God of the Bible can't lie. Unless, of course, He was lying when He gave THAT revelation...
:) George
I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive, sorry. I was just waxing philosophical.
But He can keep a secret. The Mystery was kept secret through ages and generations so that "the princes of this world" would fulfull God's will and crucify Jesus.
In modern legal terms today we might call that a "lie of omission" or a "coverup". Surely that's not immoral...is it?
Not telling everything you know is only a lie (of omission) if your intent is to give a false impression. God never told Israel that He wouldn't bring the Gentiles into the fold. He DID say that Israel was special, and gave them His commandments. They chose to believe that they would be the only ones. As far as a coverup, no, that's Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:7); or, less facetiously, David after bedding Bathsheba. God wasn't happy with that.
quote: Standing for a cult leader......not the same as standing for "The Pledge"....Know what I mean, Vern?
Would you stand for a priest? A bishop? A rabbi? Any one of those might be considered a "cult leader" by someone outside his faith.
In 10th grade (69/70) a guy got grabbed by his collar and literally jerked out of an assembly for not standing up for the pledge of allegiance. That guy put himself in harm's way more than a few times. He had communist ideas and he didn't like having USA worship (as he perceived it) rammed down his throat.
quote: Not telling everything you know is only a lie (of omission) if your intent is to give a false impression. God never told Israel that He wouldn't bring the Gentiles into the fold. He DID say that Israel was special, and gave them His commandments. They chose to believe that they would be the only ones. As far as a coverup, no, that's Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:7); or, less facetiously, David after bedding Bathsheba. God wasn't happy with that.
Somewhere in the OT Jezebel wanted to kill all the prophets of the Lord and some guy named Obadiah hid them from her in a cave. So much for being "subject unto the higher powers".
"You people just want to live off the fat of the land!"
One of the things top leader screamed at the top of his lungs because no one had been there to direct where he should park at the hangar he had been to a million times.
He was screaming this to full time staff that were being paid on a "need basis".
He screamed about this for 20 minutes because no one had apparently been spiritually sharp enough to realize he was about to arrive.
Seriously, how dumb do you have to be to need someone directing you where to park in a dinky parking lot with hardly any other cars?
I don't know if this outrageous or just good ole BS, but it's kind of like Craig saying he was qualified to run a Fortune 500 company.
At the Rock of Ages 1983 or 84, VP claimed to have invented the hook shot. Yes, the basketball move associated with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and other NBA greats. They brought some old classmate of his on stage to talk about how VP would stand in the corner and they'd pass him the ball and he'd sink it time after time with a shot no one had ever seen before.
Just one more great idea the Adversary stole from an innovative believing believer, don'tchaknow.
So sure Craig could have run a huge corporation...and VP could have been an NBA superstar if they hadn't been SOOOO committed to movin Da Word.
Like the one about taking all his reference material to the dump and using only the Bible.... or the now infamous snow storm job stories....or the little boy who died because of what his mother was thinking....or the one about the devil sneaking into his desk drawer at night....or "Cancer is a devil spirit."....or the the miraculous withered-hand healing in India, accompanied by the amazing "key to the city" fable.... All outrageous.
Are they the "most" outrageous? I don't know. I think that may be a subjective call, tempered by personal experience.
Too many to count. But the one that comes to mind at the moment is from Emogene Allen at our first Departmental Staff Meeting in The Way International Bookstore in October 1982:
"I thought this year I got the cream of the crop, but now I know I got the scum from the crick!"
I remember one story about VP writing the Receiving the Holy Spirit book - how he moved into a hotel for 2 weeks, ate a diet of nothing but grapes, and wrote the whole book with no notes having all of the 350+ scriptures on the topic in memory.
He just left out the part where he had JE Stiles book sitting right next to him so he could transcribe while changing a few words ;)
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Broken Arrow
TWI doctrine is the immodium of the people.
outandabout
Okie said "Staying Alive" starring John Travolta was a rip-off of Athletes of the Spirit. When training for AOL, Okie used Travolta's book on how to get fit and toned. I think it was Sylvester Stall
100% Free
Top leader once said: "Slavery was not as bad as it was made out to be. They were in loving households and were taken care of." I'm still gagging over that one.
Broken Arrow
Don't forget there was also a nice, relaxing boat ride across the Atlantic Ocean prior to being sold as property to "a loving family".
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waysider
Not to mention, the free membership to Jazzercise.
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Broken Arrow
Okay George you just brought up a topic I've thought about a lot. By the way, I'll admit this is off topic and we'll take it to another thread if need be but I have a question for you. If you know for a fact that someone is going to take the truth you tell them to commit an act of murder, would it not be appropriate to lie in such an instance? This is akin to the holocaust when the Nazi's would ask gentiles if they had any Jews in their house. Had the Gentiles said yes, they knew the Nazis would cart them off to a concentration camps where they would be executed. Was it not more appropriate to commit a lesser "sin" to prevent a greater one? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Please understand that I'm not defending LCM. I am, I thinking, making a case for why in specific cases it might be appropriate to commit a lesser sin to prevent a greater one.
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waysider
Morality is in a constant state of flux. Yesterday's lie becomes today's tool of survival.
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frank123lol
Good thing,God makes the claim of eternal life,we would indeed muck it up!!
Yes morality comes and goes,That is why cultures rise and fall.When ours does it'll be mighty bleak.
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GeorgeStGeorge
You might if you were still a follower of TWI. And it's not just VP we're talking about. What about other TWI leaders? Some of them were good folk. If I were a Catholic, I might stand for a priest or bishop, even though some (other) priests and bishops are child molesters.
George
I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that the God of the Bible can't lie. Unless, of course, He was lying when He gave THAT revelation...
:) George
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Broken Arrow
[
I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that the God of the Bible can't lie. Unless, of course, He was lying when He gave THAT revelation...
:) George
I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive, sorry. I was just waxing philosophical.
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GeorgeStGeorge
No big deal. If I say something here, I should be able to defend it.
George
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Jbarrax
But He can keep a secret. The Mystery was kept secret through ages and generations so that "the princes of this world" would fulfull God's will and crucify Jesus.
In modern legal terms today we might call that a "lie of omission" or a "coverup". Surely that's not immoral...is it?
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GeorgeStGeorge
Not telling everything you know is only a lie (of omission) if your intent is to give a false impression. God never told Israel that He wouldn't bring the Gentiles into the fold. He DID say that Israel was special, and gave them His commandments. They chose to believe that they would be the only ones. As far as a coverup, no, that's Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:7); or, less facetiously, David after bedding Bathsheba. God wasn't happy with that.
This really isn't a doctrinal forum...
George
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johniam
quote: Standing for a cult leader......not the same as standing for "The Pledge"....Know what I mean, Vern?
Would you stand for a priest? A bishop? A rabbi? Any one of those might be considered a "cult leader" by someone outside his faith.
In 10th grade (69/70) a guy got grabbed by his collar and literally jerked out of an assembly for not standing up for the pledge of allegiance. That guy put himself in harm's way more than a few times. He had communist ideas and he didn't like having USA worship (as he perceived it) rammed down his throat.
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johniam
quote: Not telling everything you know is only a lie (of omission) if your intent is to give a false impression. God never told Israel that He wouldn't bring the Gentiles into the fold. He DID say that Israel was special, and gave them His commandments. They chose to believe that they would be the only ones. As far as a coverup, no, that's Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:7); or, less facetiously, David after bedding Bathsheba. God wasn't happy with that.
Somewhere in the OT Jezebel wanted to kill all the prophets of the Lord and some guy named Obadiah hid them from her in a cave. So much for being "subject unto the higher powers".
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100% Free
"You people just want to live off the fat of the land!"
One of the things top leader screamed at the top of his lungs because no one had been there to direct where he should park at the hangar he had been to a million times.
He was screaming this to full time staff that were being paid on a "need basis".
He screamed about this for 20 minutes because no one had apparently been spiritually sharp enough to realize he was about to arrive.
Seriously, how dumb do you have to be to need someone directing you where to park in a dinky parking lot with hardly any other cars?
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OperaBuff
Maybe that's how Chris Geer wormed his way into the upper echelon. He could simultaneously park a vehicle and avoid spiritual calamity.
Hopefully Craig isn't driving a forklift at his Home Depot job.
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FreeFromCults
Working at a Home Depot?
So much for his ranting about being qualified to work at a Fortune 500 Company.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, Home Depot is no. 30 on the Fortune 500...
;) George
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Twinky
The hype wasn't just that he could work at a Fortune 500 company - it was that he could be the CEO of said company.
If he ran it anything like he ran TWI, it wouldn't be Fortune 500 or even Fortune 5,000,000 for very long.
Yeah, so that claim ... was pretty outrageous. Or egregious. Or maybe just somewhere in outer space.
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johniam
quote: Actually, Home Depot is no. 30 on the Fortune 500...
Just out of curiosity, where does McDonalds rank? You have to scream to be a fast food lunch manager.
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Jbarrax
I don't know if this outrageous or just good ole BS, but it's kind of like Craig saying he was qualified to run a Fortune 500 company.
At the Rock of Ages 1983 or 84, VP claimed to have invented the hook shot. Yes, the basketball move associated with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and other NBA greats. They brought some old classmate of his on stage to talk about how VP would stand in the corner and they'd pass him the ball and he'd sink it time after time with a shot no one had ever seen before.
Just one more great idea the Adversary stole from an innovative believing believer, don'tchaknow.
So sure Craig could have run a huge corporation...and VP could have been an NBA superstar if they hadn't been SOOOO committed to movin Da Word.
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waysider
So many VP claims, so little time.
Like the one about taking all his reference material to the dump and using only the Bible.... or the now infamous snow storm job stories....or the little boy who died because of what his mother was thinking....or the one about the devil sneaking into his desk drawer at night....or "Cancer is a devil spirit."....or the the miraculous withered-hand healing in India, accompanied by the amazing "key to the city" fable.... All outrageous.
Are they the "most" outrageous? I don't know. I think that may be a subjective call, tempered by personal experience.
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Catcup
Too many to count. But the one that comes to mind at the moment is from Emogene Allen at our first Departmental Staff Meeting in The Way International Bookstore in October 1982:
"I thought this year I got the cream of the crop, but now I know I got the scum from the crick!"
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chockfull
I remember one story about VP writing the Receiving the Holy Spirit book - how he moved into a hotel for 2 weeks, ate a diet of nothing but grapes, and wrote the whole book with no notes having all of the 350+ scriptures on the topic in memory.
He just left out the part where he had JE Stiles book sitting right next to him so he could transcribe while changing a few words ;)
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waysider
I remember hearing that one, too. Sheesh. P.T. Barnum would have had a field-day with us.
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WordWolf
No, you have to be able to communicate with all your workers. You can move to where they are and
speak clearly. If you're determined you need to stay where you are, you can raise your voice
without a "scream." If you "have to scream" at your workers, you're not cut out to be a manager.
(Unless, say, the worker pulls a knife and tries to stab someone.)
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