Of course. I'm just sayin' that if anybody is free to buy a Dr. John record, t shirt, concert ticket, etc. even though he's not really a doctor....then anybody is also free to still value pfal etc. even though HE is not really a doctor. It's simple.
You are intolerant. You want to demand from people what they can and cannot value. Good luck with that. That's what a lot of us got into twi to get away from.
Of course. I'm just sayin' that if anybody is free to buy a Dr. John record, t shirt, concert ticket, etc. even though he's not really a doctor....then anybody is also free to still value pfal etc. even though HE is not really a doctor. It's simple.
You are intolerant. You want to demand from people what they can and cannot value. Good luck with that. That's what a lot of us got into twi to get away from.
John, if I was intolerant, as you suggest, this conversation would have ended long ago.
Again, Dr. John is a stage character, played by a man whose real name is Mac Rebannack. Likewise, Sheriff Andy Tailor is not a real person, he is a character, played by Andy Griffith. See the difference between this an the deception that Wierwille promoted? Wierwille played the part of Dr. Wierwille when he was "on stage", but, in real life, even though he was someone else, he continued to allow people to think he was really the character he played.
Nevertheless, you are perfectly free to hold onto whatever you perceive to be of value in PFAL. No one here has told you that you can't do that. I do find it a bit ironic, though, that in the above post, you openly admit you know that Wierwille wasn't really a Dr. And, this dichotomy ("It must be true because Dr. said so...") is the crux of the matter that provoked this thread.
If he wasn't really a doctor then why didn't anybody call him on it. He had tons of enemies while he was alive; why didn't any of them use that more. I don't really care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor. His enemies nit picked about some things, but not that. Why not, if the evidence was so overwhelming that he wasn't really a doctor?
Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
If he wasn't really a doctor then why didn't anybody call him on it. He had tons of enemies while he was alive; why didn't any of them use that more. I don't really care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor. His enemies nit picked about some things, but not that. Why not, if the evidence was so overwhelming that he wasn't really a doctor?
*laughs*
We've/you've been at this since the 1990s, and NOW you're finally looking at the issue
"Was vpw a doctor or not?"
At this rate, an honest look at the Doctrinal problems won't be approached until after
you're in your 90s.
Ok, let's answer this, since you asked.
1) He wasn't a REAL doctor. He had a "doctorate" from an unaccredited institution.
It has all the authority of MY "doctorates".
(I asked for mine specifically because of this issue.)
Since I have 3 "doctorates" from unaccredited institutions, I, apparently, am triple
the "doctor" that vpw is- but not ONCE have you ever addressed ME as "Doctor WordWolf"
despite that. However, like REAL PhD holders, I usually just use my name and not any
title, even when checking into hotels or signing my name or being introduced as a guest
speaker. If you consider vpw "a real doctor", then in fairness, you have to consider
EVERYONE who has an unaccredited PhD to be every bit the "doctor" he was.
Frankly, the people who put in the time at the ACCREDITED institutions (we have a few
posting here NOW at the GSC, for example) are much MORE Drs than us fakes. You may note
that they don't insist on being called "Dr" either.
2) "He had tons of enemies when he was alive."
According to vpw, he needed armed bodyguards around him because there were people who were
trying to kill him. As early as TW:LiL (and IN that book), he said they'd tried to kill him
TWICE- then immediately changed the subject and refused to provide even the slightest details.
After a conversational bombshell like that, the most obvious reason to change the subject is
if you're lying through your teeth. ANYONE would want to know more once that was said.
When he was alive, most people had never HEARD of him. twi'ers had heard of him, as had ex-twi'ers.
Most of the people who opposed him fell into a few categories.
A) Ex-twi'ers who wanted to get on with their lives. They mostly tried to ignore him.
B) Family members and loved ones of the women he molested and/or raped. Those that existed,
he did his best to subvert by making the women out to be liars and destroy their selves
so they were shattered wrecks who were in no condition to TELL their loved ones.
He succeeded very well in that endeavor most vile.
C) Christians with contrary doctrine. Most Christians had never HEARD of him. When a
Christian DID hear of him, what they heard was there was this crackpot who teaches
against the Trinity and against soul-sleep, but isn't a Jehovah's Witness.
They all focused entirely on that. The flatly ridiculous claims were never looked at.
They were looking at a man teaching doctrine they didn't like, so the addressed the DOCTRINE.
Lacking the internet, few even THOUGHT to question his credentials. If he claimed to be a "doctor",
some school presumably gave him a PhD, which was a lesser matter to them. For that matter,
with internet access, it's not hard to expose his imaginary snowstorm in Tulsa as a complete
fabrication. However, most people thought of him as a doctrinal heretic, and approached him
accordingly. If they'd known he was an ecclesiastical fraud, they would have approached him
differently.
D) Deprogrammers. They just wanted cash, and focused on his doctrine also.
So, that's why they "didn't use that more." twi, as an organization, operated fairly underground,
off the radar. twi's books never appeared in libraries- unless a twi'er donated any. Christian
bookstores were never given the chance to CARRY twi books even if they wanted to.
"I really don't care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor."
I call "shenanigans" on that. You still CALL him "Doctor", even though his only "doctorate"
was granted by an organization with no more authority to grant a "doctorate" than
YOUR LOCAL SUPERMARKET. And real "doctors" rarely insist on their title, unlike the FAKE
who insisted on it all the time- while denigrating the educational institutions that
grant degrees in Religious Studies. The net result is that he's granted a title he didn't
earn and given the appearance of an authority figure- and all people who actually EARNED
one don't count. I mean, DON earned a real PhD from an ACCREDITED institution. However,
whenever he heard "Doctor Wierwille" said around him, it was NEVER about HIM and ALWAYS
about the man who never EARNED the real thing. vpw was exposed as a fraud over a decade
ago, in front of you at the GSC, and you STILL call him "Doctor." You darn well DO care.
At least be honest with us even if you're going to lie to yourself.
The evidence is conclusive that he was never a REAL "doctor." Anyone who says "he was
a real doctor", anyone who says "maybe he was a real doctor, maybe he wasn't", and
anyone who says "I don't care if he was a real doctor" who still calls him
"Doctor Wierwille" in any context is hiding from the truth, lying to themselves and
Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
Many people tried.
Well, ok, there WERE those people, too.
For the most part, vpw isolated his lies from the GENERAL public.
The people who heard his lies were generally already in twi at least a few years,
and less likely to even CONSIDER he was lying. However, some DID catch him.
In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard
that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they
discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought
to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard,
look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc.
IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one,
so I thought there was one because I had angels lying to me."
Might as well ask why no one confronted him on that. They did, he just made up
a bigger lie to cover the first one. That's vpw's criminal MO. When caught, make
up a bigger lie. That's why he molested and raped women and spread the big lie
If he wasn't really a doctor then why didn't anybody call him on it. He had tons of enemies while he was alive; why didn't any of them use that more. I don't really care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor. His enemies nit picked about some things, but not that. Why not, if the evidence was so overwhelming that he wasn't really a doctor?
This is a case of seriously flawed logic. If NO ONE ever called him on it, it would not change the fact that he didn't have a valid doctorate.
His enemies never questioned him on this? I beg to differ. I can remember many personal experiences of defending his credentials and hearing others defending his credentials, while I was still under the mistaken impression they were real. I think we wanted to believe it was all real, just like we wanted to believe there is a Santa Claus. I may be mistaken, but I think Kris may have also related a similar experience in her book. Been a while since I read it. Do you remember if there is anything like that in the book?
First of all, let's clarify something: I refuse to even discuss the issue if the opening line was "If he wasn't really a doctor..."
Ok? There's no "if." There's a "Now that it's been established," but that's far different from "if."
If you want to start the dialogue with "If he wasn't really a doctor," then you are starting with the premise that he WAS really a doctor, and you must thus abandon the "but it doesn't matter to me" position you took earlier, seeing as it clearly DOES matter to you.
"If the moon isn't made of green cheese, then why didn't you challenge it before you were born?"
The second half is not worth addressing because the first half is absurd.
"If Elvis isn't really alive, what about the people who've spotted him in Alabama truck stops?"
See? The second half doesn't need to be addressed because the first half is so silly.
"If Wierwille wasn't a doctor, why didn't you call him on it before he died?"
quote: Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
Many people tried.
Rascal, I was talking about his enemies, not people in twi. People in twi questioned his research and of course his morals, but I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate. The enemy source that comes to mind is the article about twi in the 'Mindbenders' book. The guy who wrote that book is/was a real piece of work IMO. He was an insufferable, sarcastic blowhard. But I don't recall him saying anything about VPs doctorate. He may have; I just don't recall it. BTW as an aside....one of the so called benefits of pfal was that it 'enables you to separate truth from error', right? That's why I wasn't afraid to read the Mindbenders article; that's why I'm not afraid to come here. Simply watching TV or reading a newspaper gives me all the opportunity I need to practice separating truth from error, however.
quote: I may be mistaken, but I think Kris may have also related a similar experience in her book. Been a while since I read it. Do you remember if there is anything like that in the book?
At one point, her mother found out about VPs doctorate from another parent in the neighborhood whom Kris called Mrs. Potter. Her mom also didn't waste any opportunity to remind Kris of this. I'm reading through it a 2nd time. It's a quick read and I want to see if I can figure out who the people are from their fake names. Already got 2 I didn't catch the first time.
But overall, her mom was more concerned with the brainwashing aspect of it. Any concern about VPs doctorate was to support that mom thought Kris was being brainwashed. That's what I see there.
quote: In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard
that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they
discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought
to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard,
look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc.
IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one,
All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie?
Compare with 2 Kings 6. Very funny. King of Syria orders a hit on Elisha, who prays for the Syrians to be temporarily blind, and lies to them (v. 19) leading them to Samaria, the capital city of their enemy. No kidding the bands of Syria came no more into Israel (v. 23b) after THAT! There's no problem here if readers don't make one.
The gullibility of the hearer is no guarantee of the integrity of the speaker. The notion that people took Wierwille the Deceiver at his word and didn't question his credentials proves only that we trusted him, not that he earned or deserved that trust.
Not all degrees from non-accredited institutions are bogus are they? Some are well recognized within specific fields. Some states allow licensing for non-accredited degree holders in certain areas. Some are even prestigious degrees. It all depends on where they come from, the program, and the degree. No? Or do I have this confused. I don't think I do.
Some Christian schools may opt out of or be denied accreditation for doctrinal reasons. A few that have been accredited in the last few years, have been well respected institutions within their field without accreditation.
There are more non accredited "degree mills" than not, but lack of accreditation does not automatically make a school a degree mill does it? It is also a matter of regional, national, and international recognition.
Do the schools where VP "bought" his degree even exist anymore? I could find very little non TWI related information. The information that I did find simply stated that Pikes Peak was a diploma mill. Interestingly, it churned out more than one nut job. VP was in some illustrious company. Billy James Hargis?
Is the info about the school out there somewhere? I would be curious to see it and it would probably good for a few of us to actually understand what it means to buy a degree as opposed to earning it. It speaks to character. It speaks to commitment. If these were lacking in VP's approach to the bible even then.....it may be more difficult to deny the importance of what his assumed title really means.
However, he was a trained theologian wasn't he? No? Are his other degrees legit? He did have some credentials. He was deemed qualified in some ways by some accredited institutions.
To me, THAT is the irony.....because he was not qualified according to the very faith and book he claimed for himself....and that bothers me far more than his title or lack of legitimate title. That causes me to ponder people's continual commitment to the man and his theology far more than what they call him or if he was a genuine PhD holder. It is more difficult to escape the reality of our blind devotion to a man instead of God when his qualifications are held up to the light of scripture. That is when we make the choice who to follow or believe.....in my opinion.
quote: Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
Many people tried.
Rascal, I was talking about his enemies, not people in twi. People in twi questioned his research and of course his morals, but I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate. The enemy source that comes to mind is the article about twi in the 'Mindbenders' book. The guy who wrote that book is/was a real piece of work IMO. He was an insufferable, sarcastic blowhard. But I don't recall him saying anything about VPs doctorate. He may have; I just don't recall it. BTW as an aside....one of the so called benefits of pfal was that it 'enables you to separate truth from error', right? That's why I wasn't afraid to read the Mindbenders article; that's why I'm not afraid to come here. Simply watching TV or reading a newspaper gives me all the opportunity I need to practice separating truth from error, however.
John, the fact that we were so deceived by wierwille would I think, be a big indicator that in spite of its claims, pfal was a failure at teaching us separation of truth from error.
Is the info about the school out there somewhere? I would be curious to see it and it would probably good for a few of us to actually understand what it means to buy a degree as opposed to earning it. It speaks to character. It speaks to commitment. If these were lacking in VP's approach to the bible even then.....it may be more difficult to deny the importance of what his assumed title really means.
quote: In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard
that never happened...All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard.
I call BULLSHAT on that one. When VP told that story back in the Advanced Class, around 1983 or so, he said he SAW a snowstorm. He claimed that he was about to give up and demanded a sign from God or some such hogwash. He told God that if He could make it snow in July he (VP) would stick with it. He opened his eyes and couldn't even see the gaspumps because the snow was sooooo thick. That's the story we heard. If it was disproved then he was obviously lying.
No surprise there.
That's just your biased opinion. I said I still value pfal. You call that "care". Whatever.
If you still value PFAL, you obviously haven't learned to separate truth from error.
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said,'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can believe.'
"The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful autumn day. I said, 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were shut tightly as I prayed. And then I opened them.
"The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling stationon the corner not 75 feet away."
.................................
page 198
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing happened--there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains but they were all snowed in. The buses--same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!"
------------------------------------------
Here's what I think. I think the guy was a pathological liar. That certainly explains an awful lot of the discrepancies, now doesn't it?
"...there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-- they were all snowed in. The buses-- same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!" (E Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 198)
"However, the Tulsa tribune (shown here) notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees, and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in Climatological Data for Oklahoma show only 5/10 inch of snow on Dec. 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec. 20. Neither date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop all buses and trains.
Ways Corps graduate Barrie Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by The Voice of Healing magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973). Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do not record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for lying to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!). It seems amazing that Hill had concrete evidence that VP lied, but still fawned over him in the Oct-Nov 1982 Heart magazine article she wrote about the incident.
Wierwille's wife Dorothea recalled that week in a 1996 book of her memories of the Wierwilles' early years called Born Again to Serve. She also was in Tulsa that week and contradicts V.P. Wierwille. She never even implies that the planes, trains and buses were snowbound by a blizzard. The closest thing is when she suggests that there was snow in Chicago (700 miles from Tulsa and hundreds from New Knoxville!) and "sleet forecast in Tulsa by Thursday." (Born Again to Serve, p. 79) This means that there was never any snow on the ground or in the air when the Wierwilles were in Tulsa. Perhaps she couldn't bring herself to make a bald-faced lie as V.P. did. By this, she perhaps implies that V. P. Was lying about the alleged blizzard. "
Even MRS W doesn't try to confirm there was a blizzard, or anything to confirm a claim that
the entire city was snowed in and all trains, planes and buses were halted.
However, that's SPECIFICALLY what vpw said, and he said he made at least FOUR different
phone-calls to confirm that. (2 to the airport, 1 to the train station, 1 to the bus depot means
a minimum of 4 calls mentioned, with the possibility of more calls to any location,
but he specified those 4 himself.)
How does Johniam attempt to exonerate vpw for vpw's BLATANT lie?
Johniam said
"All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie?"
So, we have vpw clearly lying- the entire Tulsa blizzard snow-job.
Then we have vpw clearly lying again- covering up the Tulsa blizzard snow-job by claiming angels LIED to him.
(Doesn't ever claim he's correct and the other person is MISTAKEN, he jumps directly
to agreeing with the person the facts are that there was no snow, but now he was LIED TO
and told there WAS snow by angels on 4 different occasions, at 4 different locations.
So, there's 2 possibilities here.
1) vpw lied, and the entire Tulsa story, from arrival through exit, including the snow and the
incidents involving speaking in tongues, was all one big lie.
2) vpw-who has been proven to have lied on other occasions to us- was telling the complete
truth, and a bunch of angels went around lying to him.
If there's any of you that even seriously consider the second possibility to even POSSIBLY
be correct, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you, and I'm glad I'm not you.
I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate.
Not that it matters but I do. I remember a SNS tape where he publically defended his doctorate. He said something like, "There are some who are saying I didn't earn my doctorate and that it was only honorary. But I did earn my doctorate, I did the work...." (Even though that's in quotations it is not a direct quote). I can't tell you the date so you're welcome to dismiss this. He did not say whether those questioning him were in or outside of TWI, but why respond to it if just some outsider were saying it? Someone else may remember that, too. I do know it was in the mid-70's.
Not that it matters but I do. I remember a SNS tape where he publically defended his doctorate. He said something like, "There are some who are saying I didn't earn my doctorate and that it was only honorary. But I did earn my doctorate, I did the work...." (Even though that's in quotations it is not a direct quote). I can't tell you the date so you're welcome to dismiss this. He did not say whether those questioning him were in or outside of TWI, but why respond to it if just some outsider were saying it? Someone else may remember that, too. I do know it was in the mid-70's.
There are similar references in The Way: Living In Love.
I just started working on a master's of theological studies in order to gain accreditation to teach Greek at the high school level. I come in daily contact with a number of women and men who are bona fide Christians, who have actually done the work to earn their doctorates. Most of them prefer to be called by their first names in informal settings. There are some that I do call "Doctor Thus-and-Such" out of respect for the real effort they've put into pursuing excellence. I don't call any of them just plain "Doctor" or "the Doctor", or even "The Teacher" for that matter; maybe "the teacher" usually "the prof", but NEVER "The Teacher".
I can no longer call Wierwille "Doctor". The quality of his scholarship would have been laughable, if it hadn't been so genuinely pathetic. For me to call Wierwille "Doctor" would be a dis-service to my sisters and brothers in Christ who have actually earned that distinction.
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OperaBuff
Remember the children's game, Simon Says? TWI was much like that. If Simon didn't say it, it didn't mean jack. But if Simon said jump, everybody had to jump.
Jbarrax
I think that pretty much sums it up. The people who still refer to him as "Dr" do so because they still believe what he taught and hold him in high esteem. Why they continue to do so is a matter for a
rascal
Um what is disrespectful about pointing out the fact that he wasn`t a doctor,that in using the title the man was a fraud, a liar? VPW didn`t have the education or credentials of a doctor, maybe that
johniam
Of course. I'm just sayin' that if anybody is free to buy a Dr. John record, t shirt, concert ticket, etc. even though he's not really a doctor....then anybody is also free to still value pfal etc. even though HE is not really a doctor. It's simple.
You are intolerant. You want to demand from people what they can and cannot value. Good luck with that. That's what a lot of us got into twi to get away from.
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waysider
John, if I was intolerant, as you suggest, this conversation would have ended long ago.
Again, Dr. John is a stage character, played by a man whose real name is Mac Rebannack. Likewise, Sheriff Andy Tailor is not a real person, he is a character, played by Andy Griffith. See the difference between this an the deception that Wierwille promoted? Wierwille played the part of Dr. Wierwille when he was "on stage", but, in real life, even though he was someone else, he continued to allow people to think he was really the character he played.
Nevertheless, you are perfectly free to hold onto whatever you perceive to be of value in PFAL. No one here has told you that you can't do that. I do find it a bit ironic, though, that in the above post, you openly admit you know that Wierwille wasn't really a Dr. And, this dichotomy ("It must be true because Dr. said so...") is the crux of the matter that provoked this thread.
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johniam
If he wasn't really a doctor then why didn't anybody call him on it. He had tons of enemies while he was alive; why didn't any of them use that more. I don't really care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor. His enemies nit picked about some things, but not that. Why not, if the evidence was so overwhelming that he wasn't really a doctor?
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rascal
Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
Many people tried.
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WordWolf
*laughs*
We've/you've been at this since the 1990s, and NOW you're finally looking at the issue
"Was vpw a doctor or not?"
At this rate, an honest look at the Doctrinal problems won't be approached until after
you're in your 90s.
Ok, let's answer this, since you asked.
1) He wasn't a REAL doctor. He had a "doctorate" from an unaccredited institution.
It has all the authority of MY "doctorates".
(I asked for mine specifically because of this issue.)
Since I have 3 "doctorates" from unaccredited institutions, I, apparently, am triple
the "doctor" that vpw is- but not ONCE have you ever addressed ME as "Doctor WordWolf"
despite that. However, like REAL PhD holders, I usually just use my name and not any
title, even when checking into hotels or signing my name or being introduced as a guest
speaker. If you consider vpw "a real doctor", then in fairness, you have to consider
EVERYONE who has an unaccredited PhD to be every bit the "doctor" he was.
Frankly, the people who put in the time at the ACCREDITED institutions (we have a few
posting here NOW at the GSC, for example) are much MORE Drs than us fakes. You may note
that they don't insist on being called "Dr" either.
2) "He had tons of enemies when he was alive."
According to vpw, he needed armed bodyguards around him because there were people who were
trying to kill him. As early as TW:LiL (and IN that book), he said they'd tried to kill him
TWICE- then immediately changed the subject and refused to provide even the slightest details.
After a conversational bombshell like that, the most obvious reason to change the subject is
if you're lying through your teeth. ANYONE would want to know more once that was said.
When he was alive, most people had never HEARD of him. twi'ers had heard of him, as had ex-twi'ers.
Most of the people who opposed him fell into a few categories.
A) Ex-twi'ers who wanted to get on with their lives. They mostly tried to ignore him.
B) Family members and loved ones of the women he molested and/or raped. Those that existed,
he did his best to subvert by making the women out to be liars and destroy their selves
so they were shattered wrecks who were in no condition to TELL their loved ones.
He succeeded very well in that endeavor most vile.
C) Christians with contrary doctrine. Most Christians had never HEARD of him. When a
Christian DID hear of him, what they heard was there was this crackpot who teaches
against the Trinity and against soul-sleep, but isn't a Jehovah's Witness.
They all focused entirely on that. The flatly ridiculous claims were never looked at.
They were looking at a man teaching doctrine they didn't like, so the addressed the DOCTRINE.
Lacking the internet, few even THOUGHT to question his credentials. If he claimed to be a "doctor",
some school presumably gave him a PhD, which was a lesser matter to them. For that matter,
with internet access, it's not hard to expose his imaginary snowstorm in Tulsa as a complete
fabrication. However, most people thought of him as a doctrinal heretic, and approached him
accordingly. If they'd known he was an ecclesiastical fraud, they would have approached him
differently.
D) Deprogrammers. They just wanted cash, and focused on his doctrine also.
So, that's why they "didn't use that more." twi, as an organization, operated fairly underground,
off the radar. twi's books never appeared in libraries- unless a twi'er donated any. Christian
bookstores were never given the chance to CARRY twi books even if they wanted to.
"I really don't care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor."
I call "shenanigans" on that. You still CALL him "Doctor", even though his only "doctorate"
was granted by an organization with no more authority to grant a "doctorate" than
YOUR LOCAL SUPERMARKET. And real "doctors" rarely insist on their title, unlike the FAKE
who insisted on it all the time- while denigrating the educational institutions that
grant degrees in Religious Studies. The net result is that he's granted a title he didn't
earn and given the appearance of an authority figure- and all people who actually EARNED
one don't count. I mean, DON earned a real PhD from an ACCREDITED institution. However,
whenever he heard "Doctor Wierwille" said around him, it was NEVER about HIM and ALWAYS
about the man who never EARNED the real thing. vpw was exposed as a fraud over a decade
ago, in front of you at the GSC, and you STILL call him "Doctor." You darn well DO care.
At least be honest with us even if you're going to lie to yourself.
The evidence is conclusive that he was never a REAL "doctor." Anyone who says "he was
a real doctor", anyone who says "maybe he was a real doctor, maybe he wasn't", and
anyone who says "I don't care if he was a real doctor" who still calls him
"Doctor Wierwille" in any context is hiding from the truth, lying to themselves and
others, and probably delusional.
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WordWolf
Well, ok, there WERE those people, too.
For the most part, vpw isolated his lies from the GENERAL public.
The people who heard his lies were generally already in twi at least a few years,
and less likely to even CONSIDER he was lying. However, some DID catch him.
In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard
that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they
discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought
to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard,
look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc.
IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one,
so I thought there was one because I had angels lying to me."
Might as well ask why no one confronted him on that. They did, he just made up
a bigger lie to cover the first one. That's vpw's criminal MO. When caught, make
up a bigger lie. That's why he molested and raped women and spread the big lie
that God was ok with it, and actually WANTED it.
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waysider
This is a case of seriously flawed logic. If NO ONE ever called him on it, it would not change the fact that he didn't have a valid doctorate.
His enemies never questioned him on this? I beg to differ. I can remember many personal experiences of defending his credentials and hearing others defending his credentials, while I was still under the mistaken impression they were real. I think we wanted to believe it was all real, just like we wanted to believe there is a Santa Claus. I may be mistaken, but I think Kris may have also related a similar experience in her book. Been a while since I read it. Do you remember if there is anything like that in the book?
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Raf
First of all, let's clarify something: I refuse to even discuss the issue if the opening line was "If he wasn't really a doctor..."
Ok? There's no "if." There's a "Now that it's been established," but that's far different from "if."
If you want to start the dialogue with "If he wasn't really a doctor," then you are starting with the premise that he WAS really a doctor, and you must thus abandon the "but it doesn't matter to me" position you took earlier, seeing as it clearly DOES matter to you.
"If the moon isn't made of green cheese, then why didn't you challenge it before you were born?"
The second half is not worth addressing because the first half is absurd.
"If Elvis isn't really alive, what about the people who've spotted him in Alabama truck stops?"
See? The second half doesn't need to be addressed because the first half is so silly.
"If Wierwille wasn't a doctor, why didn't you call him on it before he died?"
If? IF?? Ain't no if.
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johniam
quote: Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say.
Many people tried.
Rascal, I was talking about his enemies, not people in twi. People in twi questioned his research and of course his morals, but I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate. The enemy source that comes to mind is the article about twi in the 'Mindbenders' book. The guy who wrote that book is/was a real piece of work IMO. He was an insufferable, sarcastic blowhard. But I don't recall him saying anything about VPs doctorate. He may have; I just don't recall it. BTW as an aside....one of the so called benefits of pfal was that it 'enables you to separate truth from error', right? That's why I wasn't afraid to read the Mindbenders article; that's why I'm not afraid to come here. Simply watching TV or reading a newspaper gives me all the opportunity I need to practice separating truth from error, however.
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johniam
quote: I may be mistaken, but I think Kris may have also related a similar experience in her book. Been a while since I read it. Do you remember if there is anything like that in the book?
At one point, her mother found out about VPs doctorate from another parent in the neighborhood whom Kris called Mrs. Potter. Her mom also didn't waste any opportunity to remind Kris of this. I'm reading through it a 2nd time. It's a quick read and I want to see if I can figure out who the people are from their fake names. Already got 2 I didn't catch the first time.
But overall, her mom was more concerned with the brainwashing aspect of it. Any concern about VPs doctorate was to support that mom thought Kris was being brainwashed. That's what I see there.
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johniam
quote: In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard
that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they
discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought
to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard,
look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc.
IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one,
All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie?
Compare with 2 Kings 6. Very funny. King of Syria orders a hit on Elisha, who prays for the Syrians to be temporarily blind, and lies to them (v. 19) leading them to Samaria, the capital city of their enemy. No kidding the bands of Syria came no more into Israel (v. 23b) after THAT! There's no problem here if readers don't make one.
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Raf
The gullibility of the hearer is no guarantee of the integrity of the speaker. The notion that people took Wierwille the Deceiver at his word and didn't question his credentials proves only that we trusted him, not that he earned or deserved that trust.
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johniam
quote: vpw was exposed as a fraud over a decade
ago, in front of you at the GSC, and you STILL call him "Doctor." You darn well DO care.
At least be honest with us even if you're going to lie to yourself.
That's just your biased opinion. I said I still value pfal. You call that "care". Whatever.
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Raf
As for vpw's snowstorm hotel story, it should be clear by now that there was no angel on either side of that phone call.
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geisha779
Not all degrees from non-accredited institutions are bogus are they? Some are well recognized within specific fields. Some states allow licensing for non-accredited degree holders in certain areas. Some are even prestigious degrees. It all depends on where they come from, the program, and the degree. No? Or do I have this confused. I don't think I do.
Some Christian schools may opt out of or be denied accreditation for doctrinal reasons. A few that have been accredited in the last few years, have been well respected institutions within their field without accreditation.
There are more non accredited "degree mills" than not, but lack of accreditation does not automatically make a school a degree mill does it? It is also a matter of regional, national, and international recognition.
Do the schools where VP "bought" his degree even exist anymore? I could find very little non TWI related information. The information that I did find simply stated that Pikes Peak was a diploma mill. Interestingly, it churned out more than one nut job. VP was in some illustrious company. Billy James Hargis?
Is the info about the school out there somewhere? I would be curious to see it and it would probably good for a few of us to actually understand what it means to buy a degree as opposed to earning it. It speaks to character. It speaks to commitment. If these were lacking in VP's approach to the bible even then.....it may be more difficult to deny the importance of what his assumed title really means.
However, he was a trained theologian wasn't he? No? Are his other degrees legit? He did have some credentials. He was deemed qualified in some ways by some accredited institutions.
To me, THAT is the irony.....because he was not qualified according to the very faith and book he claimed for himself....and that bothers me far more than his title or lack of legitimate title. That causes me to ponder people's continual commitment to the man and his theology far more than what they call him or if he was a genuine PhD holder. It is more difficult to escape the reality of our blind devotion to a man instead of God when his qualifications are held up to the light of scripture. That is when we make the choice who to follow or believe.....in my opinion.
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rascal
John, the fact that we were so deceived by wierwille would I think, be a big indicator that in spite of its claims, pfal was a failure at teaching us separation of truth from error.
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chockfull
I'll start a new thread on this...
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Jbarrax
I call BULLSHAT on that one. When VP told that story back in the Advanced Class, around 1983 or so, he said he SAW a snowstorm. He claimed that he was about to give up and demanded a sign from God or some such hogwash. He told God that if He could make it snow in July he (VP) would stick with it. He opened his eyes and couldn't even see the gaspumps because the snow was sooooo thick. That's the story we heard. If it was disproved then he was obviously lying.
No surprise there.
If you still value PFAL, you obviously haven't learned to separate truth from error.
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waysider
page 180
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said,'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can believe.'
"The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful autumn day. I said, 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were shut tightly as I prayed. And then I opened them.
"The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling stationon the corner not 75 feet away."
.................................
page 198
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing happened--there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains but they were all snowed in. The buses--same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!"
------------------------------------------
Here's what I think. I think the guy was a pathological liar. That certainly explains an awful lot of the discrepancies, now doesn't it?
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WordWolf
We're talking about a DIFFERENT lie, about a DIFFERENT snowstorm.
(You're free to call bull-muffins on either or both lies, of course.)
Johniam is conveniently forgetting everything vpw himself said on the second bogus snowstorm
in an attempt to say vpw was not PROVEN to have lied about it.
==========================
The Way:Living in Love, pg-197
"The day after Rufus Mosley said those words to me, a piece of
mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the
great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in
Pentecostalism-Oral Roberts.
By then, I'd had it. I wasn't even going to go. I don't know what made me
change my mind exactly. But I said to Father, I'd go, but it would be the
last time; and if I did not receive, I'd leave. I said: there most be
something wrong. I was sick and tired of looking, but I made up my mind
I'd go this one last time.
That was the winter of 1951."
TW:LiL, pg-198
"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was
all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the
planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed
in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!
Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the
night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this
is the first time.' "
TW:LiL, pg-199
"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the
hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began,
'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?'
I said, 'Yes, but it was a damn lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I
cussed. That ended our conversation.
Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need.
Meet me at 9am.' I thought,
'Women never tell the truth.'
But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.
I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named
J.E. Stiles. He'd com in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to
Tulsa to minister the holy spirit
to one man.
We talked for a few minutes, and he
suggested we go in to the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.
So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just
remember thinking to myself,
'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'
I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk- we talked about Oral
Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I picked up the check, and
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something
to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said,
'That's none of your business.'
That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent.
His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her."
=============================
So, vpw's account of that day is pretty specific.
A) Call the airport, and discover all planes are grounded due to a blizzard.
B) Call the train station, and discover all trains are stopped due to a blizzard.
C) Call the bus depot, and discover all the trains are stopped due to a blizzard.
D) Call the airport a second time, and discover this is the FIRST time a blizzard
has closed down the airport.
The Full Gospel Rally actually happened in Tulsa. This is something that can be
checked. So, someone in twi checked, looking to get details of this. They found
that all the evidence said that there was no blizzard, no snowstorm, no SNOW
in Tulsa for that date.
Now for the results of someone else looking into that very thing...
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm
--------------------------------------
"...there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-- they were all snowed in. The buses-- same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!" (E Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 198)
"However, the Tulsa tribune (shown here) notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees, and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in Climatological Data for Oklahoma show only 5/10 inch of snow on Dec. 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec. 20. Neither date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop all buses and trains.
Ways Corps graduate Barrie Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by The Voice of Healing magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973). Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do not record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for lying to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!). It seems amazing that Hill had concrete evidence that VP lied, but still fawned over him in the Oct-Nov 1982 Heart magazine article she wrote about the incident.
Wierwille's wife Dorothea recalled that week in a 1996 book of her memories of the Wierwilles' early years called Born Again to Serve. She also was in Tulsa that week and contradicts V.P. Wierwille. She never even implies that the planes, trains and buses were snowbound by a blizzard. The closest thing is when she suggests that there was snow in Chicago (700 miles from Tulsa and hundreds from New Knoxville!) and "sleet forecast in Tulsa by Thursday." (Born Again to Serve, p. 79) This means that there was never any snow on the ground or in the air when the Wierwilles were in Tulsa. Perhaps she couldn't bring herself to make a bald-faced lie as V.P. did. By this, she perhaps implies that V. P. Was lying about the alleged blizzard. "
------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds pretty darn conclusive.
Even MRS W doesn't try to confirm there was a blizzard, or anything to confirm a claim that
the entire city was snowed in and all trains, planes and buses were halted.
However, that's SPECIFICALLY what vpw said, and he said he made at least FOUR different
phone-calls to confirm that. (2 to the airport, 1 to the train station, 1 to the bus depot means
a minimum of 4 calls mentioned, with the possibility of more calls to any location,
but he specified those 4 himself.)
How does Johniam attempt to exonerate vpw for vpw's BLATANT lie?
Johniam said
"All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie?"
So, we have vpw clearly lying- the entire Tulsa blizzard snow-job.
Then we have vpw clearly lying again- covering up the Tulsa blizzard snow-job by claiming angels LIED to him.
(Doesn't ever claim he's correct and the other person is MISTAKEN, he jumps directly
to agreeing with the person the facts are that there was no snow, but now he was LIED TO
and told there WAS snow by angels on 4 different occasions, at 4 different locations.
So, there's 2 possibilities here.
1) vpw lied, and the entire Tulsa story, from arrival through exit, including the snow and the
incidents involving speaking in tongues, was all one big lie.
2) vpw-who has been proven to have lied on other occasions to us- was telling the complete
truth, and a bunch of angels went around lying to him.
If there's any of you that even seriously consider the second possibility to even POSSIBLY
be correct, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you, and I'm glad I'm not you.
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Broken Arrow
Not that it matters but I do. I remember a SNS tape where he publically defended his doctorate. He said something like, "There are some who are saying I didn't earn my doctorate and that it was only honorary. But I did earn my doctorate, I did the work...." (Even though that's in quotations it is not a direct quote). I can't tell you the date so you're welcome to dismiss this. He did not say whether those questioning him were in or outside of TWI, but why respond to it if just some outsider were saying it? Someone else may remember that, too. I do know it was in the mid-70's.
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waysider
There are similar references in The Way: Living In Love.
===================================================
also
From page 175
"I went to Princeton Theological Seminary in 1940..............so I could get my Master's Degree in Practical Theology."......................
"When I graduated from Princeton, I got my first church in Payne, Ohio.
.................We came here in June of 1941"
========================================================
That certainly doesn't leave much time for all those other "accomplishments", now does it?
edit: On page 174, VP implies that he attended the University of Chicago Divinity School, as well.
"The favorite men who taught me in Lakeland were________.....................At the University of Chicago Divinity School there were_____________."
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allswellhere99
1. The man was evil personified.
2. The man lied through his whole life.
3. The man used the weak and needy to build himself up.
4. The man was a sexual pervert and was unfaithful to his wife and his children.
5. The man was a grand thief and stole from those who trusted him.
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Steve Lortz
I just started working on a master's of theological studies in order to gain accreditation to teach Greek at the high school level. I come in daily contact with a number of women and men who are bona fide Christians, who have actually done the work to earn their doctorates. Most of them prefer to be called by their first names in informal settings. There are some that I do call "Doctor Thus-and-Such" out of respect for the real effort they've put into pursuing excellence. I don't call any of them just plain "Doctor" or "the Doctor", or even "The Teacher" for that matter; maybe "the teacher" usually "the prof", but NEVER "The Teacher".
I can no longer call Wierwille "Doctor". The quality of his scholarship would have been laughable, if it hadn't been so genuinely pathetic. For me to call Wierwille "Doctor" would be a dis-service to my sisters and brothers in Christ who have actually earned that distinction.
Love,
Steve
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