Y'know, Waysider, it was all a part of his big joke at our expense.
Here's a common colloquial definition for the verb "to doctor" - see definition 3 below
doctor 1. Informal To give medical treatment to: "[He] does more than practice medicine. He doctors people. There's a difference" (Charles Kuralt).2. To repair, especially in a makeshift manner; rig.3. a. To falsify or change in such a way as to make favorable to oneself: doctored the evidence.b. To add ingredients so as to improve or conceal the taste, appearance, or quality of: doctor the soup with a dash of sherry. See Synonyms at adulterate.c. To alter or modify for a specific end: doctored my standard speech for the small-town audience.d. Baseball To deface or apply a substance to (the ball): was ejected because he doctored the ball with a piece of sandpaper.
Remember the children's game, Simon Says? TWI was much like that. If Simon didn't say it, it didn't mean jack. But if Simon said jump, everybody had to jump.
An aspect to this for oldies and moldies is that early on, the "Dr." designation wasn't used most of the time by others or himself, he was "VP". Around '71, the Way Nash communicated that using it was preferred. In California this was done via phone calls and in an informal way, Dorothy Owens of the Way staff called around and I actually kind of remember the day that call came, believe it or not, at the East Bay home of Howie Y. So word kind of circulated that way.
His "doctorship" wasn't really a factor in the impression he made at that time IMO, good or bad. PFAL obviously wasn't an academic kind of presentation and his demeanor and personality wasn't one of an academic. He was informal, friendly and his shoot-from-the-hip kind of delivery was the opposite of someone trying to maintain a scholarly manner. In fact it seemed as if he deliberately tried to foil that kind of impression.
A few years on and he seemed to want to craft a more formal, educated and worldly wise image - "Dr."........as if to say, having accumulated all the educational background and cred's but tossed them aside as meaningless....so there was a bit of a disconnect there to straddle that fence.......
same with the Way International, or the Way Nash as I like to refer to it. Early on, it was known as "the Farm". While it was a bustling endeavor, again, it wasn't Corporate Religion Headquarters in image. Friendly, down home, easy going.
Soon enough he became "Dr. Weirwille", and the Farm the Way Int'l. Inc. If you'd met him before this all started up it seemed unecessary but not entirely unreasonable in certain ways. Depending on the reliability and stability of the re labelled image didn't work, long term because IMO that's not what "it" was, he was or the entire effort was all about. We all know what happened over time, so I think history speaks for itself. We are what we are and taking a different name or hanging up a different sign doesn't change that. "Authenticity" counts, it's all there really is.
I got into TWI in '73 and lived 70 miles from HQ. I was there nearly every Sunday. Early TWI was completely the opposite of what it became. Very laid back and casual. Dress code was casually elegant but if the best you had was a paisley shirt and faded jeans, that was cool.
The aura of "The Farm" (it really was a farm) was one of tenderness and tons of manifested love back then.
One post I strongly remembered, I think on early greasespot,and I think it was David Anderson. The incident happened in '74. He was working in an office at HQ and VeePee walked in, apparently agitated. He then complained to David that love wasn't working. I guess he didn't think people were walking in love fast or hard enough.
(Meybe too many girls were turning down his offers.)
I do know that Anderson was one of TWI's most major and honored movers until then and then disappeared off the scene in the manner that later became so common.
As to using the term doctor, it became the official nickname for VeePee and with 22 years of habit behind me, I find it is still the first word for him that comes to mind. I then have to go to my mental thesaurus to remember his other aliases.
Yes, I agree dabbob. The "name" became "Dr. Weirwille".
Doctor? I've posted before, on a practical level it meant nothing to someone like me, it didn't validate anything or make anything better or worse, righter or slighter. Why anyone today would, I don't know but I doubt I'd waste much time or money trying to choke it out of someone that he wasn't a really real doctor.....I dunno, I have a bad attitude all around though so don't listen to me, might get you into trouble.
For many years I'd addressed Roman Catholic priests and nuns as "Father" and "Sister"....."Father Brennan"...."Sister Hyacintha"....yes, there was a nun that had that name....eventually those titles become meaningless, they're part of the multi syllable name someone has "FathahBrennan".
Why he wanted to be called Dr. is more telling I think. On the one hand he's got the attitude that theological training and education is a waste of time that turns the participant into a godless unbeliever with no faith..........but on the other, he wants to be the "Dr."..........who's he trying to impress? And is anyone being impressed?
To some extent California may have figured into that a little maybe a lot - when he came out here, first time I saw him it was clear that he wasn't West Coast Cool - in fact the fact that he didn't cater or kowtow to the clearly superior coolness of the Coast was endearing....here's a guy who doesn't give a crap what you think about how he looks, he's here to speak and teach and if you don't like it, don't listen. That was refreshing because in California between L.A. and San Francisco alone there were competing Coolness Cultures and the hierarchy of SF, Marin and North Coast alone could be confusing - in a really groovey way of course man - but ol' Dr. Weirwille wasn't on that radar or anywhere close.
To me, it was a non-issue. The title was boring and formal and unnecessary. But the idea that he was a dummy who didnt' have a grasp of how to count to 10 without taking off his shoes is wrong. But Dr.? ......over stating who you are is always going to be a problem, always.
I do get the part about how it became like a part of his name, like "Sister Margaret". But, suppose you find out that Sister Margaret has been impersonating a Nun, all this time. Do you still call her SISTER Margaret?
(I still think "Crown Prince Waysider" has a positive vibe about it.)
quote: Why do people continue to call him Doctor, even though they know his doctorate was as phony as a three dollar bill?
What motivates them to do that?
Because not everybody is obsessed with disrespecting him as you are. To me that's like saying "You know Jesus wasn't really an ordained clergyman, don't you?"
Because not everybody is obsessed with disrespecting him as you are. To me that's like saying "You know Jesus wasn't really an ordained clergyman, don't you?"
So what?
Interesting argument. But Jesus never CLAIMED to be an ordained clergyman, did he?
quote: Why do people continue to call him Doctor, even though they know his doctorate was as phony as a three dollar bill?
What motivates them to do that?
Because not everybody is obsessed with disrespecting him as you are. To me that's like saying "You know Jesus wasn't really an ordained clergyman, don't you?"
So what?
-------------------------------------------
"You know Jesus wasn't really a defenceman for the Pittsburgh Penguins, don't you?"
So what?
--------------------------------------------
Do you considerate it disrespectful to point out that Wierwille's degree was fraudulent? And, no, it wasn't an "honorary" doctorate. What I think is disrespectful is the blatant deception he foisted on trusting souls, such as you and I. He disrespected our trust.
This brings me to implied point #2.... What is it that compels you to compare him to Jesus, or any other Biblical figure, for that matter? This thread isn't about Jesus, the Bible, God or any other spiritually related subject. It's about the reluctance of some folks to acknowledge that Wierwille's credentials were fraudulent.
I admit I tend to get a bit silly with it at times. The fact remains, though, that credentials, whether earned or bestowed "honorarily", ARE a big deal. Just ask our resident squirrel friend (or any of the many other posters with legitimate credentials) what is entailed in acquiring genuine credentials. You ask, "So what?", but I don't think you really want to know, do you?
Mostly I suspect it's that those who do want to retain and hold to that thread of validity in the teaching and the name represents an easy to use way to refer to him.
There's a group of those who no doubt ignore reality too and figure there's no need to change a thing. "The Word's still the Word" and that includes non-Wordy things that are part and parcel of that spiritual package.
Had he completed a recognized doctoral program, that would have been one thing - still, that wouldn't have validated his teaching, ideas or any outcomes from them. It would have meant he completed the work to achieve the recognition - and importantly - by the communities that maintain that recognition.
The doctoral degree wasn't issued by an accredited source - "Pikes Peak Seminary", whatever. So one would know, should know, going in - it will have limited recognition and therefore value in those circles where degrees are handled. So it's puzzling that on his part he embedded it into who he was and yeah, equally puzzling years later to hang anything on it of importance. I think it's just "the name" that goes with the man.
It's the same kind of logic he used in his books - he didn't hide his sources, although he wasn't clear about how he got from A to Z with them (B G Leonard's an example of that). But he did write, publish and sell books that contained material from others books. If God taught him, opened the scriptures ok, but apparently God wasn't up to redoing old work and just directed him to previous efforts. That's understandable, God has a lot to do but if it's all one happy bag of inspired work, all the better to clearly accredit God for past work well done and note the sources.
When someone that advertises that they're a "Dr.", and they write and publish, it's safe as a buck on a board to say that person will know and understand the standards that govern publishing. There's no "or should", they will as a result of completing their doctoral work. He'd completed up to his Masters degree, and so he'd done his papers, writs, thesis, etc. etc. and then done the Pike's Peak thing. So he knew and he decided to avoid clearly identifying what he injected into his own work.
In the world where academic work results in degrees and achievements - that's a no-no. It'sa no-no in high school too, or when you're writing a check or doing much of anything, one would think. So if one is going to represent their own academic level as one of Doctor of anything - it's like in for a dime, in for a dollar or something like that. Otherwise, why bother?
I don't fixate on it but IMO it's a simple kinda deal.
What a PHD would cost me would be about five years of labor. Very hard labor.. even with a fellowship, or teaching assistantship. It's practically slave labor..
How old was the victoid when he got his "phd"?
OH. Just wonder.. the victoid was not even an ordained clergyman either was he? Wasn't he defrocked?
I have a niece who works full time for a major hospital chain. She spends all her work time checking doctors' credentials to see if they are really what they say they are. It's astonishing, the lengths some people will go to to have the title "doctor" attached to their name, valid or not.
When I started writing about my experiences in TWI, I realized that the only neutral way to refer to Wierwille was simply as "Wierwille." When scholars write, they don't refer to "Dr. This" or "Dr. That." They simply use the person's last name.
For instance... Dr. James D.G. Dunn, one of my favorite current New Testament scholars. If I were referring in a paper to something he had written, I would simply call him "James Dunn" the first time, and "Dunn" thereafter. I understand the people on the campus where he teaches (taught? He may be retired now.) call him "Jimmy."
Wierwille was a fraud, and calling himself "Doctor" was part of the fraud. I don't do it anymore.
Thanks, Steve. I think that cuts to the heart of it.
This brings up another point.
If a person knows Wierwille (I still capitalize due to the rules of the language.) was a fraud, but still refers to him as Doctor to add a perceived element of credibility to what they are saying, what does that make them? Or, to put it a bit more kindly, what does that make of whatever they are saying?
If a person knows Wierwille (I still capitalize due to the rules of the language.) was a fraud, but still refers to him as Doctor to add a perceived element of credibility to what they are saying, what does that make them? Or, to put it a bit more kindly, what does that make of whatever they are saying?
Some people are opportunists.....like some twi-offshoot leaders.
Some people are enablers.........knowingly or unknowingly.
Some people have/had no life outside of the cult.....feeds their psyche.
Mostly I suspect it's that those who do want to retain and hold to that thread of validity in the teaching and the name represents an easy to use way to refer to him.
There's a group of those who no doubt ignore reality too and figure there's no need to change a thing. "The Word's still the Word" and that includes non-Wordy things that are part and parcel of that spiritual package.
I think that pretty much sums it up. The people who still refer to him as "Dr" do so because they still believe what he taught and hold him in high esteem. Why they continue to do so is a matter for another thread. :-)
I think that pretty much sums it up. The people who still refer to him as "Dr" do so because they still believe what he taught and hold him in high esteem. Why they continue to do so is a matter for another thread. :-)
Yes, why they continue to hold him in high esteem is really a whole 'nother ball of ear wax.
Sorta, kinda reminds me of a woman who is subjected to extreme physical abuse by her husband but still, not only stays with him, but defends him.
"Sure, he beat the livin' daylights out of me for the umteenth time again, but he's really a gentle soul, deep down inside."....Huh???
An interesting thing is that Billy Graham, with a BA from Wheaton College has done a pretty good job of speaking forth the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified for 60+ years with integrity. His integrity has been enough to carry him through it seems.
Why is Victor Paul Wierwille the 1st(grandson is named after him by John Paul, not to be confused with the late pontiff) called Doctor? Because he is the last of aliens from the dead planet Gallifry and is the Lord of time, traveling in an disguised outhouse called the Tardis, and "J" is his traveling companion. He actually prefers women as his companions. The RV changed into an outhouse when the chameleon circuit got fried.
Why is Victor Paul Wierwille the 1st(grandson is named after him by John Paul, not to be confused with the late pontiff) called Doctor? Because he is the last of aliens from the dead planet Gallifry and is the Lord of time, traveling in an disguised outhouse called the Tardis, and "J" is his traveling companion. He actually prefers women as his companions. The RV changed into an outhouse when the chameleon circuit got fried.
I'm sorry, Thomas, but I'm afraid I have too much respect for Doctor Who to confuse him with "doctor who?" :wacko:
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OperaBuff
Remember the children's game, Simon Says? TWI was much like that. If Simon didn't say it, it didn't mean jack. But if Simon said jump, everybody had to jump.
Jbarrax
I think that pretty much sums it up. The people who still refer to him as "Dr" do so because they still believe what he taught and hold him in high esteem. Why they continue to do so is a matter for a
rascal
Um what is disrespectful about pointing out the fact that he wasn`t a doctor,that in using the title the man was a fraud, a liar? VPW didn`t have the education or credentials of a doctor, maybe that
waysider
From now on, I think I'd like to be referred to as "The Crown Prince".
Well, I did manage to consume the better part of a fifth of Crown Royal, in one setting, many years ago.
(Mamma Mia!)
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Twinky
Y'know, Waysider, it was all a part of his big joke at our expense.
Here's a common colloquial definition for the verb "to doctor" - see definition 3 below
doctor 1. Informal To give medical treatment to: "[He] does more than practice medicine. He doctors people. There's a difference" (Charles Kuralt).2. To repair, especially in a makeshift manner; rig.3. a. To falsify or change in such a way as to make favorable to oneself: doctored the evidence.b. To add ingredients so as to improve or conceal the taste, appearance, or quality of: doctor the soup with a dash of sherry. See Synonyms at adulterate.c. To alter or modify for a specific end: doctored my standard speech for the small-town audience.d. Baseball To deface or apply a substance to (the ball): was ejected because he doctored the ball with a piece of sandpaper.
Free Dictionary
You'll find similar definitions of this colloquial meaning in other dictionaries.
So every time he was called "Doctor" - it was an acknowledgment of his fraud - that he had "doctored" the Bible that he taught.
So despite your "he wasn't a real doctor" bit that you put in frequently - that's exactly what he was! But in a different sense.
After all, it doesn't have quite the same positive vibes, to say, "Well, Fraudster said..."
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OldSkool
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OperaBuff
Remember the children's game, Simon Says? TWI was much like that. If Simon didn't say it, it didn't mean jack. But if Simon said jump, everybody had to jump.
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socks
An aspect to this for oldies and moldies is that early on, the "Dr." designation wasn't used most of the time by others or himself, he was "VP". Around '71, the Way Nash communicated that using it was preferred. In California this was done via phone calls and in an informal way, Dorothy Owens of the Way staff called around and I actually kind of remember the day that call came, believe it or not, at the East Bay home of Howie Y. So word kind of circulated that way.
His "doctorship" wasn't really a factor in the impression he made at that time IMO, good or bad. PFAL obviously wasn't an academic kind of presentation and his demeanor and personality wasn't one of an academic. He was informal, friendly and his shoot-from-the-hip kind of delivery was the opposite of someone trying to maintain a scholarly manner. In fact it seemed as if he deliberately tried to foil that kind of impression.
A few years on and he seemed to want to craft a more formal, educated and worldly wise image - "Dr."........as if to say, having accumulated all the educational background and cred's but tossed them aside as meaningless....so there was a bit of a disconnect there to straddle that fence.......
same with the Way International, or the Way Nash as I like to refer to it. Early on, it was known as "the Farm". While it was a bustling endeavor, again, it wasn't Corporate Religion Headquarters in image. Friendly, down home, easy going.
Soon enough he became "Dr. Weirwille", and the Farm the Way Int'l. Inc. If you'd met him before this all started up it seemed unecessary but not entirely unreasonable in certain ways. Depending on the reliability and stability of the re labelled image didn't work, long term because IMO that's not what "it" was, he was or the entire effort was all about. We all know what happened over time, so I think history speaks for itself. We are what we are and taking a different name or hanging up a different sign doesn't change that. "Authenticity" counts, it's all there really is.
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Ham
so what are you saying?
Is it kind of like.. applying the title "doctor" to herr vicster was not much unlike applying lipstick to a pig?
sowy..
it's just where it went..
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dabobbada
I'm in 100% agreement with socks.
I got into TWI in '73 and lived 70 miles from HQ. I was there nearly every Sunday. Early TWI was completely the opposite of what it became. Very laid back and casual. Dress code was casually elegant but if the best you had was a paisley shirt and faded jeans, that was cool.
The aura of "The Farm" (it really was a farm) was one of tenderness and tons of manifested love back then.
One post I strongly remembered, I think on early greasespot,and I think it was David Anderson. The incident happened in '74. He was working in an office at HQ and VeePee walked in, apparently agitated. He then complained to David that love wasn't working. I guess he didn't think people were walking in love fast or hard enough.
(Meybe too many girls were turning down his offers.)
I do know that Anderson was one of TWI's most major and honored movers until then and then disappeared off the scene in the manner that later became so common.
As to using the term doctor, it became the official nickname for VeePee and with 22 years of habit behind me, I find it is still the first word for him that comes to mind. I then have to go to my mental thesaurus to remember his other aliases.
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socks
Yes, I agree dabbob. The "name" became "Dr. Weirwille".
Doctor? I've posted before, on a practical level it meant nothing to someone like me, it didn't validate anything or make anything better or worse, righter or slighter. Why anyone today would, I don't know but I doubt I'd waste much time or money trying to choke it out of someone that he wasn't a really real doctor.....I dunno, I have a bad attitude all around though so don't listen to me, might get you into trouble.
For many years I'd addressed Roman Catholic priests and nuns as "Father" and "Sister"....."Father Brennan"...."Sister Hyacintha"....yes, there was a nun that had that name....eventually those titles become meaningless, they're part of the multi syllable name someone has "FathahBrennan".
Why he wanted to be called Dr. is more telling I think. On the one hand he's got the attitude that theological training and education is a waste of time that turns the participant into a godless unbeliever with no faith..........but on the other, he wants to be the "Dr."..........who's he trying to impress? And is anyone being impressed?
To some extent California may have figured into that a little maybe a lot - when he came out here, first time I saw him it was clear that he wasn't West Coast Cool - in fact the fact that he didn't cater or kowtow to the clearly superior coolness of the Coast was endearing....here's a guy who doesn't give a crap what you think about how he looks, he's here to speak and teach and if you don't like it, don't listen. That was refreshing because in California between L.A. and San Francisco alone there were competing Coolness Cultures and the hierarchy of SF, Marin and North Coast alone could be confusing - in a really groovey way of course man - but ol' Dr. Weirwille wasn't on that radar or anywhere close.
To me, it was a non-issue. The title was boring and formal and unnecessary. But the idea that he was a dummy who didnt' have a grasp of how to count to 10 without taking off his shoes is wrong. But Dr.? ......over stating who you are is always going to be a problem, always.
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waysider
Most excellent and groovy responses.
I do get the part about how it became like a part of his name, like "Sister Margaret". But, suppose you find out that Sister Margaret has been impersonating a Nun, all this time. Do you still call her SISTER Margaret?
(I still think "Crown Prince Waysider" has a positive vibe about it.)
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johniam
quote: Why do people continue to call him Doctor, even though they know his doctorate was as phony as a three dollar bill?
What motivates them to do that?
Because not everybody is obsessed with disrespecting him as you are. To me that's like saying "You know Jesus wasn't really an ordained clergyman, don't you?"
So what?
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Ham
Interesting argument. But Jesus never CLAIMED to be an ordained clergyman, did he?
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waysider
-------------------------------------------
"You know Jesus wasn't really a defenceman for the Pittsburgh Penguins, don't you?"
So what?
--------------------------------------------
Do you considerate it disrespectful to point out that Wierwille's degree was fraudulent? And, no, it wasn't an "honorary" doctorate. What I think is disrespectful is the blatant deception he foisted on trusting souls, such as you and I. He disrespected our trust.
This brings me to implied point #2.... What is it that compels you to compare him to Jesus, or any other Biblical figure, for that matter? This thread isn't about Jesus, the Bible, God or any other spiritually related subject. It's about the reluctance of some folks to acknowledge that Wierwille's credentials were fraudulent.
I admit I tend to get a bit silly with it at times. The fact remains, though, that credentials, whether earned or bestowed "honorarily", ARE a big deal. Just ask our resident squirrel friend (or any of the many other posters with legitimate credentials) what is entailed in acquiring genuine credentials. You ask, "So what?", but I don't think you really want to know, do you?
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socks
Mostly I suspect it's that those who do want to retain and hold to that thread of validity in the teaching and the name represents an easy to use way to refer to him.
There's a group of those who no doubt ignore reality too and figure there's no need to change a thing. "The Word's still the Word" and that includes non-Wordy things that are part and parcel of that spiritual package.
Had he completed a recognized doctoral program, that would have been one thing - still, that wouldn't have validated his teaching, ideas or any outcomes from them. It would have meant he completed the work to achieve the recognition - and importantly - by the communities that maintain that recognition.
The doctoral degree wasn't issued by an accredited source - "Pikes Peak Seminary", whatever. So one would know, should know, going in - it will have limited recognition and therefore value in those circles where degrees are handled. So it's puzzling that on his part he embedded it into who he was and yeah, equally puzzling years later to hang anything on it of importance. I think it's just "the name" that goes with the man.
It's the same kind of logic he used in his books - he didn't hide his sources, although he wasn't clear about how he got from A to Z with them (B G Leonard's an example of that). But he did write, publish and sell books that contained material from others books. If God taught him, opened the scriptures ok, but apparently God wasn't up to redoing old work and just directed him to previous efforts. That's understandable, God has a lot to do but if it's all one happy bag of inspired work, all the better to clearly accredit God for past work well done and note the sources.
When someone that advertises that they're a "Dr.", and they write and publish, it's safe as a buck on a board to say that person will know and understand the standards that govern publishing. There's no "or should", they will as a result of completing their doctoral work. He'd completed up to his Masters degree, and so he'd done his papers, writs, thesis, etc. etc. and then done the Pike's Peak thing. So he knew and he decided to avoid clearly identifying what he injected into his own work.
In the world where academic work results in degrees and achievements - that's a no-no. It'sa no-no in high school too, or when you're writing a check or doing much of anything, one would think. So if one is going to represent their own academic level as one of Doctor of anything - it's like in for a dime, in for a dollar or something like that. Otherwise, why bother?
I don't fixate on it but IMO it's a simple kinda deal.
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Ham
What a PHD would cost me would be about five years of labor. Very hard labor.. even with a fellowship, or teaching assistantship. It's practically slave labor..
How old was the victoid when he got his "phd"?
OH. Just wonder.. the victoid was not even an ordained clergyman either was he? Wasn't he defrocked?
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Steve Lortz
I have a niece who works full time for a major hospital chain. She spends all her work time checking doctors' credentials to see if they are really what they say they are. It's astonishing, the lengths some people will go to to have the title "doctor" attached to their name, valid or not.
When I started writing about my experiences in TWI, I realized that the only neutral way to refer to Wierwille was simply as "Wierwille." When scholars write, they don't refer to "Dr. This" or "Dr. That." They simply use the person's last name.
For instance... Dr. James D.G. Dunn, one of my favorite current New Testament scholars. If I were referring in a paper to something he had written, I would simply call him "James Dunn" the first time, and "Dunn" thereafter. I understand the people on the campus where he teaches (taught? He may be retired now.) call him "Jimmy."
Wierwille was a fraud, and calling himself "Doctor" was part of the fraud. I don't do it anymore.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Thanks, Steve. I think that cuts to the heart of it.
This brings up another point.
If a person knows Wierwille (I still capitalize due to the rules of the language.) was a fraud, but still refers to him as Doctor to add a perceived element of credibility to what they are saying, what does that make them? Or, to put it a bit more kindly, what does that make of whatever they are saying?
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skyrider
Some people are opportunists.....like some twi-offshoot leaders.
Some people are enablers.........knowingly or unknowingly.
Some people have/had no life outside of the cult.....feeds their psyche.
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excathedra
some people are bassturds like the good doctor
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Jbarrax
I think that pretty much sums it up. The people who still refer to him as "Dr" do so because they still believe what he taught and hold him in high esteem. Why they continue to do so is a matter for another thread. :-)
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waysider
Yes, why they continue to hold him in high esteem is really a whole 'nother ball of ear wax.
Sorta, kinda reminds me of a woman who is subjected to extreme physical abuse by her husband but still, not only stays with him, but defends him.
"Sure, he beat the livin' daylights out of me for the umteenth time again, but he's really a gentle soul, deep down inside."....Huh???
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Kit Sober
An interesting thing is that Billy Graham, with a BA from Wheaton College has done a pretty good job of speaking forth the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified for 60+ years with integrity. His integrity has been enough to carry him through it seems.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Why is Victor Paul Wierwille the 1st(grandson is named after him by John Paul, not to be confused with the late pontiff) called Doctor? Because he is the last of aliens from the dead planet Gallifry and is the Lord of time, traveling in an disguised outhouse called the Tardis, and "J" is his traveling companion. He actually prefers women as his companions. The RV changed into an outhouse when the chameleon circuit got fried.
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Steve Lortz
I'm sorry, Thomas, but I'm afraid I have too much respect for Doctor Who to confuse him with "doctor who?" :wacko:
Love,
Steve
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Ham
Are we really sure of that? I mean not THE doctor, but wienerville.
I still am of the opinion.. he could swing either way. But with the culture of the fifties.. he outdid himself to prove his masculinity(?)..
his *ministry* of masculinity(?) was reincarnated in rosie..
again, just a thought. Take it or leave it..
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