They screamed about controlling our minds, yet they couldn't control their tongues.

[johniam]

quote:

Defining "swearing" from the bible doesn't relate to the topic directly or even indirectly. I guess there's some historical fuzz that informs the modern use of the word 'swearing" when it's used to mean what we might loosely call "bad words" but the fact that the biblical definition of swearing to an oath is different than.......well, it's a silly point IMO.

Most people who are offended by so called 'swearing' have had exposure to the bible. Most church Christians just mindlessly believe that when the bible talks about swearing that it automatically means the use of 4 letter words. Not so.

Many good points have been made on this thread. Swear words used in public usually mean somebody is ready to do anything to make their point up to and including fighting. They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

[waysider]

Most people who are offended by so called 'swearing' have had exposure to the bible. Most church Christians just mindlessly believe that when the bible talks about swearing that it automatically means the use of 4 letter words. Not so.

Many good points have been made on this thread. Swear words used in public usually mean somebody is ready to do anything to make their point up to and including fighting. They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

Do you have any references for these claims or do you just make this stuff up "on the fly"?

Edited July 26, 2011 by waysider

[socks]

Hmmmm.....flies hovering.....

Language is a form of human communication and contact, a verbal gesture if you will. Basically, more or less but mostly more. We impact others externally through our language, communicate our thought and intent.

Words that signify force - think about it.

It's tempting to think that an aversion to "swearing" is an outcome of religious convictions but I don't think so. "god damm (sp)"....

The "n" word.....one of the most volatile words in our language, today. I can guarantee there's no religious ties to how that would be interpreted by most people today. No religious convictions are required to demand that language reflect respect for others.

Me, I'm not "afraid" of using certain words but I would use certain words carefully so as not to offend others unnecessarily.

Living peacefully with others? How I speak and communicate is something I control - if I use language that will insult or offend others that's not acting responsibliy....

Unless I want to insult and offend. In that case, I get what's expected.

The practice of swearing by Wayfer "Leaders" - an ignominious practice. Stupid, unnecessary and wihtout merit.

There's no excuse for it, if there is I'd like to hear it specifically and how it benefited those involved. Say on, all who would.

[100% Free]

Hmmmm.....flies hovering.....

Language is a form of human communication and contact, a verbal gesture if you will. Basically, more or less but mostly more. We impact others externally through our language, communicate our thought and intent.

Words that signify force - think about it.

It's tempting to think that an aversion to "swearing" is an outcome of religious convictions but I don't think so. "god damm (sp)"....

The "n" word.....one of the most volatile words in our language, today. I can guarantee there's no religious ties to how that would be interpreted by most people today. No religious convictions are required to demand that language reflect respect for others.

Me, I'm not "afraid" of using certain words but I would use certain words carefully so as not to offend others unnecessarily.

Living peacefully with others? How I speak and communicate is something I control - if I use language that will insult or offend others that's not acting responsibliy....

Unless I want to insult and offend. In that case, I get what's expected.

The practice of swearing by Wayfer "Leaders" - an ignominious practice. Stupid, unnecessary and wihtout merit.

There's no excuse for it, if there is I'd like to hear it specifically and how it benefited those involved. Say on, all who would.

Good post, you said it well.

[100% Free]

quote:

Most people who are offended by so called 'swearing' have had exposure to the bible. Most church Christians just mindlessly believe that when the bible talks about swearing that it automatically means the use of 4 letter words. Not so.

Well for me, it actually isn't about the bible. I just got to the point in life where I will not accept verbal abuse from anyone anymore. And I'm not talking about the ocassional slip up of a curse word here and there. I'm talking about being ranted and raved at and sworn at in a bible meeting.

Also, I don't think most Church Christians just "mindlessly believe"

anything. They are just like the rest of us, trying to figure things out and do the right thing. Just because people think differently from you johniam, does not mean they "mindlessly believe."

Many good points have been made on this thread. Swear words used in public usually mean somebody is ready to do anything to make their point up to and including fighting. They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

Thank you for acknowledging the points that have been made. You're right, some people will go to great lengths to prove they are right, even using foul language and fighting.

But I also have to say, just because someone does not agree with you johniam, does not mean they are afraid to use those words. I'm not afraid to use those words, I choose not to.

I used to use them frequently when I was younger. But as i grew up, I decided that it really matters to me how I make other people feel when they are around me. I want to be respectful of the opinions and beliefs of others even if I don't agree with them. I don't have to try to diminish them if they don't agree with me. (A common practice in twiland).

If I do use foul language, I try to apologize right away, even if I know the person is comfortable with it because I want to show respect to them.

Peace.

[Twinky]

Let's just back up a bit here.

What would Jesus do? Did he yell and scream at his disciples? It doesn't seem so. He did reprove them, sometimes sternly - but lovingly. He didn't belittle them, tear them down. He certainly didn't aggrandize himself. How did he treat others - hangers-on? He taught them kindly, using words and expressions, graphic examples, what was around him, that they could relate to. Have another look at the sermon on the mount (for example).

What would Paul do? He was skilled in argument. He argued with the best. Not arguing rudely, aggressively, or belittlingly. He argued persuasively about "the unknown God" in many locations. In fellowships, he taught at length, in detail. He didn't bellow at those who were listening. Even when some sleepyhead fell out of the window, Paul didn't bellow at anyone for their lack of believing, or lack of attention / falling asleep.

Those are the models that should be followed.

... despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Therefore, our handling of others, whether in "sermons" or "teachings" or just everyday matters, should be with goodness, forbearance and longsuffering.

Not with screaming, yelling, foul language, and belittling, which fits more into this category:

:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like

Compare and contrast.

[Ham]

Swear words used in public usually mean somebody is ready to do anything to make their point up to and including fighting. They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

at great risk of being perceived as a condescending son of a bitch (sorry! I swore,but only a little)

those who use these words publicly don't have the intellect to meaningfully express themselves in any other manner.

I have choices..

[waysider]

Damn straight, Ham!

Oops. Wanna fight?

[johniam]

quote: Let's just back up a bit here.

What would Jesus do? Did he yell and scream at his disciples? It doesn't seem so. He did reprove them, sometimes sternly - but lovingly. He didn't belittle them, tear them down. He certainly didn't aggrandize himself. How did he treat others - hangers-on? He taught them kindly, using words and expressions, graphic examples, what was around him, that they could relate to. Have another look at the sermon on the mount (for example).

What would Paul do? He was skilled in argument. He argued with the best. Not arguing rudely, aggressively, or belittlingly. He argued persuasively about "the unknown God" in many locations. In fellowships, he taught at length, in detail. He didn't bellow at those who were listening. Even when some sleepyhead fell out of the window, Paul didn't bellow at anyone for their lack of believing, or lack of attention / falling asleep.

Aw, now you just HAD to mention Jesus. OK.

First of all, I think everybody will agree that there's a difference between talking to your family/household and talking to an outsider. Especially if the outsider is trying to harm/disrespect you. The first post on this thread refers to someone dealing with an outsider. First paragraph.

I know that twi became much more abbrasive at the twig level beginning in 1994. I was spared this, for the most part. Here am I, reprove me? That's what they tried to sell to some of us as legit. No, that's not good. What did Jesus do?

When dealing with family/household, just like you posted; lovingly. But what about outsiders? Ye are of your father the devil. Ye are like unto whited sepulchres. You don't think Jesus KNEW these words would be offensive? In Matt. 15:12 his disciples were concerned that the Pharisees were offended. Jesus wasn't.

If someone forces you into a conflict, you HAVE to deal with it. You can't just let everybody walk on you thinking it's somehow virtuous. How does God get glorified in that? Paul wasn't any different (Acts 13:46). Got a couple of good stories.

1) In 1993 a girl had taken pfal but wasn't really familiar with twi politics. She went to the ROA and the area coordinator decided to tell her how it was. He reproved her about something using cuss words. He wasn't a rev, just a WC grad who was area cordo. So he tries to shock her into realization with cuss words. Didn't even faze her; she gave it right back to him and later told us matter of factly that she was going to get that guy in trouble with twi if he didn't cut it out. She would find the the area cordo was just the tip of the iceberg, but she sure got that guy's goat.

2) This happened to me couple three months ago. I was at Aldi's, got in my car to leave, as I drove forward another car pulled forward right in my path and stopped. So I stopped and tried to drive around the other car. She pulls forward right in my path and stops AGAIN. I don't think she was trying to cause an accident; I think she was just so self absorbed that she just didn't care to figure out that others are in the parking lot also. So I stopped and tried to drive around her a second time. This time when my windows were even with her's she screeches at me "Wut duh hell you think you DOIN'?" I said I'm trying to get out of the f'ing parking lot! She called me an a, I called her a c, then she called me a b and sped off. It was actually a very uniform exchange of words which lasted less than 5 seconds. She was at least 35 years old. I said to myself, "OK. I just got called a b by an angry black woman. My life is complete."

Swearing in public is risky. So is having a gun in your house. This month in STL there have been 3 headlines of children being fatally shot at homes where there was a gun. One 3 year old shot himself, a nine year old shot a 7 year old, and a 5 year old shot an 18 month old. Nobody yet charged with a crime. One of the homes was a police officer. Apples and oranges? Maybe, but in cases where an outsider is harassing you, a well placed cuss word could be exactly what is needed.

Edited July 27, 2011 by johniam

[waysider]

2) This happened to me couple three months ago. I was at Aldi's, got in my car to leave, as I drove forward another car pulled forward right in my path and stopped. So I stopped and tried to drive around the other car. She pulls forward right in my path and stops AGAIN. I don't think she was trying to cause an accident; I think she was just so self absorbed that she just didn't care to figure out that others are in the parking lot also. So I stopped and tried to drive around her a second time. This time when my windows were even with her's she screeches at me "Wut duh hell you think you DOIN'?" I said I'm trying to get out of the f'ing parking lot! She called me an a, I called her a c, then she called me a b and sped off. It was actually a very uniform exchange of words which lasted less than 5 seconds. She was at least 35 years old. I said to myself, "OK. I just got called a b by an angry black woman. My life is complete."

John, this isn't even remotely similar to what's being discussed. I have a hard time believing such a simple concept is this difficult for you to comprehend. I'm inclined to think you are purposely being obtuse so that "the ministry be not blamed".

[johniam]

You're inclined to THINK??? News to me.

quote: those who use these words publicly don't have the intellect to meaningfully express themselves in any other manner.

quote:

Therefore, our handling of others, whether in "sermons" or "teachings" or just everyday matters, should be with goodness, forbearance and longsuffering.

Not with screaming, yelling, foul language, and belittling,

quote:

Well for me, it actually isn't about the bible. I just got to the point in life where I will not accept verbal abuse from anyone anymore.

quote: Language is a form of human communication and contact, a verbal gesture if you will. Basically, more or less but mostly more. We impact others externally through our language, communicate our thought and intent.

Words that signify force - think about it.

It's tempting to think that an aversion to "swearing" is an outcome of religious convictions but I don't think so. "god damm (sp)"....

The "n" word.....one of the most volatile words in our language, today. I can guarantee there's no religious ties to how that would be interpreted by most people today. No religious convictions are required to demand that language reflect respect for others.

Me, I'm not "afraid" of using certain words but I would use certain words carefully so as not to offend others unnecessarily.

Living peacefully with others? How I speak and communicate is something I control - if I use language that will insult or offend others that's not acting responsibliy....

Unless I want to insult and offend. In that case, I get what's expected.

The practice of swearing by Wayfer "Leaders" - an ignominious practice. Stupid, unnecessary and wihtout merit.

There's no excuse for it, if there is I'd like to hear it specifically and how it benefited those involved. Say on, all who would.

quote: They should be avoided, but sometimes that's not possible. It says in Romans 12 if it be possible as much as lieth in you live peacably with all men, but it's not always possible. A Christian should not be afraid to use those words.

Waysider. THIS is what is being discussed. You have a serious disconnect.

[Twinky]

Aw, now you just HAD to mention Jesus. OK.

First of all, I think everybody will agree that there's a difference between talking to your family/household and talking to an outsider. Especially if the outsider is trying to harm/disrespect you. The first post on this thread refers to someone dealing with an outsider. First paragraph.

And it should be different, speaking to others outside one's family? ??

"Especially if the outsider is trying to harm/disrespect you?" - um, maybe because you disrepected him first, could it be?

If someone forces you into a conflict, you HAVE to deal with it. You can't just let everybody walk on you thinking it's somehow virtuous. How does God get glorified in that? Paul wasn't any different (Acts 13:46).

How disrespected is the following?

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him [the Ethiopian eunuch], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest ? 31 And he said , How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer , so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away : and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

That some serious disrespect. Taking away an innocent man to be executed. Do we read about Jesus verbally abusing his abusers? Either at the time of his arrest, or any other time? Have you ever been that badly disrespected, Johniam? No? Then practise the self-control of the Master.

If someone forces you into a conflict, you HAVE to deal with it.

Or alternatively, you could turn the other cheek (literally) and just walk away and leave the bully blustering away to himself. Ideally, walk away early before it gets to major conflict, brawl and battle of words.

Did Jesus make a habit of bawling people out? No, he only bawled out specific groups - the hypocritical Pharisees. And what we read isn't the first time that he's spoken with them. Before that there has been extreme provocation and "baiting" of him. It's not random abuse.

Johniam, have you ever tried Jesus's approach to abuse: Bless those that persecute you? Bless, and do not curse. Pray for them...and for yourself.

• Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
• Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless , and curse not.

Note what's not included in that: "Give 'em a mouthful of abuse."

And that's not limited to "enemies" - whether within one's family, household, community, or total strangers.

The examples you gave are way off point. But what's news...?

1) In 1993 a girl had taken pfal but wasn't really familiar with twi politics. She went to the ROA and the area coordinator decided to tell her how it was. He reproved her about something using cuss words. He wasn't a rev, just a WC grad who was area cordo. So he tries to shock her into realization with cuss words. Didn't even faze her; she gave it right back to him and later told us matter of factly that she was going to get that guy in trouble with twi if he didn't cut it out. She would find the the area cordo was just the tip of the iceberg, but she sure got that guy's goat.

Good for her. Maybe more of us should have done that. Nipped it in the bud. Just emulating their example, of course. But she was reproving him for not being an example of Christ-likeness.

[socks]

"Maybe, but in cases where an outsider is harassing you, a well placed cuss word could be exactly what is needed. "

(Not in my world, the exact opposite of what you're implying is more likely) But....actually I think you've made a solid case for temperance with your examples.

Now, let's avoid knee jerk reactions to the word "temperance". Moderation, forbearance, consideration and thoughtfulness - we've seen those words used thus far in this thread....I'm not talking about prohibition, why we should all be able to drink anything we want or the time someone drank a bottle of vodka and saw God.

"Temper" our words and actions, mix in balancing elements to keep our words and actions on an even keel so as to be able to avoid extremes of anger and/or violence.

Pretty much in our American culture today - not when our grand daddies plowed soy bean in the front 40 or 2000 years ago in the middle east but today - swearing, profanity, cussin', toilet talk, bad words and nasty language, that stuff - is used in different ways to mean different things, I think we all agree.

When it's associated with, used with, attached to, an extension of - a confrontational situation, like say anger or conflict of some kind, it tends to - and this in America today not 30 years ago in Adolffs or while I was a WOW in Boote Kamp, Idaho or somewhere - but today.....it tends to capture and escalate that confrontation, that anger, that bad cha cha goin' on.

Not everytime, not always without fail as if it were a principle like gravity or believing if I SIT and sit just right the clock will tick faster....but pret' near most of the time -

If two people start cussin' at each other in anger, it's going to continue and potentially escalate the situation. Like being thirsty and drinking water - hmmm that's good, I'll have more the thirst is going away the more I drink the water. but now I gotta pee - y'know? It's not quantum physics.

The angry curse words of profane origin and nasty badness feed the situation as it is.

I think. IMO. To me, based on 60+ years of observation and participation.

Crowley noted "do as thou wilt".

I wilt to temper my verbal and physical and language to pursue a balance. I get angery, wiff off a choice word here or there. I don't try to baddass anyone like that these days - like the women in the parking lot, if you're staring down a barrel, well, more likely today, feeling a ping in the side of your neck before you black out - it's just not a good way to go.

I live a pretty mellow life, overall. But as we all know, geez - there's 12 year old girls with black belts now all over the place. Tack some smack the wrong time, you're likely to be eating sneaker for lunch. I'm a lovah, not a fightah, but push come to shove I'm not going to get into a swearing festival with somebody or play spank-the-horsey for 5 minutes, it's going to have to be a drop-'em-now kind of deal, I'm too old to blow hot air posturing ans swearing at each other. That just seems lame.

The Wayfers - ? Sequestered in a protected insulated world, inside/internal bullying and baddassing - totally different. And insulting, even for a thick skinned weel wart like me.

Hey, if they can't take a little ribbing, f-k 'em. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

[waysider]

Whatever happened to "A soft answer turns away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."?

[OperaBuff]

Whatever happened to "A soft answer turns away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."?

As long as your holy spirit dove pin in your lapel was pointed towards Mecca (was that the rule? i think that was it, but i'm getting old and my memory isn't 100% anymore) and your shoes were polished, you were authorized to open your mouth and let 'er rip. Geesh, didn't they teach you anything?

Oh, and your suit had to be pressed for God. God apparently has a thing for pressed suits. I don't recall anything about wearing clean underwear in case we were in an accident and had to go to the emergency room, but I may have missed that retemory while I was bent over looking at my shoes. Was going commando authorized?

My oh my, it wasn't an enjoyable life in TWI, was it?

[rascal]

I have to agree with a soft answer turning away wrath. Vulgarity and swearing are simply a way of being offensive. Do it if you want but don`t even pretend that it is for a practical purpose, or some valid spiritual reason.

As far as out in the world, I have to disagree with the assessment that a curse word is necessarily an effective to make ones point. One of the very first thing we are taught in martial arts is to avoid conflict. If someone is in our face trying to force confrontation, to try to diffuse their anger, to try to walk away. If we can understand this in the fighting world...lol how much MORE so than in the christian arena?

I think this is just another example of where we were taught to find biblical sounding reasons to justify boorish behavior and excuse bullying.

Edited July 27, 2011 by rascal

[Ham]

I was thinking a little more..

vulgarity and extreme obnoxiousness have a limited usefulness. I mean, subject someone to verbal beatings long enough.. maybe psychologically the same result is with physical abuse.. one builds up an immunity..

the worst words I ever had for someone.. once.

"I was once involved in a GD cult. You remind me of them.."

One of the few times I used profanity..

it wasn't the gd that got person's attention..

[penworks]

A number of parents reported that their child learned to swear and curse from exposure

to lcm's raving lunacy, his unprepared rants delivered off-the-cuff all through the 1990s.

lcm, of course, was prone to doing that a bit in the 1980s, also, but at that time he was

actually a bit apologetic when he began yelling at his audiences.

(I heard him apologize on tape once immediately after one- he said that the people he was

talking about-in denominations- got him mad.)

lcm, of course, didn't originate it himself. He enshrined and institutionalized what he

learned and observed from vpw. lcm seemed to legitimately think everything vpw told him

was of God- and vpw seemed to know when he was bs-ing and when he wasn't- which was why

vpw's style was more effective. He knew WHICH lies to tell and when. lcm thought he was

doing the right thing.

So, we trace it back to vpw. vpw claimed it was our liberty in Christ that he was preaching,

which allowed him to, in effect, do whatever he wanted and it wouldn't touch him spiritually.

So, he rationalized his drinking, smoking, sex mania, and of course, his foul mouth.

Oddly, he kept his foul mouth hidden whenever a microphone was around- but in private would

curse up a storm when he wanted to.

I agree. I can verify this is what I witnessed in TWI from the two of them, too.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

They would have followed him off a cliff if he'd have

jumped first.

Just think how many lives would have been better...

;)

George

[chockfull]

This brings up an interesting point that I'll start another thread on - duality between what they say and what they do - double standards for leaders in TWI.

[excathedra]

On a previous thread it was mentioned how RD swore at someone in an attempt to be loving to someone else. In my experiences, leaders would throw public temper tantrums and use foul language. They were often applauded as if losing control like this was godly. Does anyone have any examples like this to share

well, i don't know if this one counts because it was in-house (be especially good to household of faith and all that)

i buzzed vp on his ext. at HQ and told him geer was destroying the life of a dear friend of mine in britain

he said

how long do i have to suck your way corps asses

--

ps. frankie vallie wrote rag doll for me :)

[Human without the bean]

Thanks for this excuse to play this. :P

[johniam]

I agree with a soft answer turns away wrath. Having been married almost 23 yrs I've practiced that one many times. So has my wife.