I see a common theme here: apparently society has gotten to the point that it is now taboo for a household or an organization to try to handle something in house. No, as soon as a situation gets tricky we must drop everything and farm it out to a third party. We're too stupid to do anything without government intervention. Wait. What was it....
"Obey the government, for there is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power". Can't have these wows out there spreading God's word. No way to control them.
I see a common theme here: apparently society has gotten to the point that it is now taboo for a household or an organization to try to handle something in house.
No one ever said this
No, as soon as a situation gets tricky we must drop everything and farm it out to a third party. We're too stupid to do anything without government intervention. Wait. What was it....
Or this
"Obey the government, for there is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power".
Can't have these wows out there spreading God's word. No way to control them.
What on earth does government intervention have to do with this thread???
It's perfectly okay and right for an organization or household to handle "something" itself/themselves.....
But as the great philosopher Harry Callahan said - a man's got to know his own limitations. (applies to women too).
I believe the quote you're taking exception too:
Had this guy gone on to do something horrific then I'm sure we would have read in the paper how he once threatened 3 christian missionaries with a loaded gun. And people would have thought "that's where it should have stopped, why didn't they report it?"
To answer your question -
As far as me/mine/us goes - yes. Absolutely. If you pull a gun on me, I'm going to call in the authorities, the police, you-name-it, immediately. Threaten me and not back off, same. Threaten my family, ditto. Do me or mine harm, authority-r-us, you're going to feel like the captain of the Titanic just before it hit the iceberg and he said "Is that ice I see over the-----"
Now - given the response time for 911 can be slow, I'm not going to wait, I will "handle it" myself but that may be a bad option for all involved. As a "WOW" I would never have tolerated the kind of behavior described here - and guns? Forget it, no way, you're out.
You're reminding me of Graeser and Lynn, who have said they like to 'drop bombs' here and other places where they can mess with people. Basically - they're as s holes and I'd love for them or others of their ilk to do that in person face to face but they prefer to duck and hide and mess with people online, rather than engage in a discussion. In person you could grab them by the collar and wring their buck teeth out, but online, you can't. Just sayin' - their methodology is similar to you, here.
so what is it with you - why do you deliberately digress and deliberately switch to topics where you can attack - as you switch off topic. Do you drink, are you medicated? I'm not kidding or being sarcastic, I'm trying to get a better view of what your thought processes are, so I can participate in your comments.
You're reminding me of Graeser and Lynn, who have said they like to 'drop bombs' here and other places where they can mess with people. Basically - they're as s holes and I'd love for them or others of their ilk to do that in person face to face but they prefer to duck and hide and mess with people online, rather than engage in a discussion. In person you could grab them by the collar and wring their buck teeth out, but online, you can't. Just sayin' - their methodology is similar to you, here.
Thanks, Socks. For as long as he has been here, I have tended to take him seriously and to honestly try to understand his viewpoint. Perhaps you just hit the nail on the head. Maybe it is all just one giant mind game. And even if it isn't, perhaps it is better if I just never do understand some people.
Well.....I just don't get it either. It seems that where the topic started around the WOW program that the Sowers have initiated and has swung around to various sides of that topic - which would seem natural - we're suddenly reading that for a group of people -
"Christian" ambassadors - out to spread the Good News, live life and learn better how to live in harmony with themselves and their community.........
and what I would hope would be extreme examples of un-Christian, unloving, basically screwball actions and in some cases illegal behavior....
and the idea that to call the police - "report it" - in the case of some nut wielding a gun at people - is out of line and equal to "government intervention"......:o:doh:
Pull a gun on me and you'd better HOPE the government intervenes because that will NOT be tolerated. Firearms - that's a no-go, no free pass, no nothing.
The fact that this kind of insanity was allowed to exist on any level for any amount of time, to be handled "in house", is ridiculous.
At the least you disarm the idiots, pack them up and get them the h away. But doing it that way there IS a risk because anyone who feels they can pull a gun out and try to bad as s people with it is likely going to run aground somewhere down the line and then YES, you will know the horror of having NOT been a part of helping anyone but an enabler of the damage.
Some of this crap isn't in a range I'd expect your average person to handle. Some stuff you can talk through and get on with it but me, we're not going sit around and sing Amazing Grace and renew our minds to the Word if you pull a gun or exhibit violent behavior or insist on being a major pain in the butt because you think it's funny or worse yet, "God told you" to do it. It's not funny and if He did tell you to do it He'd better show up on your behalf with a golden rainbow or it's going to stop quick.
It's not the first time I've heard of this kind of thing. In fact, there have been reports here of incidents where W.O.W.s were actually murdered by members of their W.O.W. families. If it's all a joke, I must say, I just don't get the punchline. This is why I sincerely hope this new wave of W.O.W.s are not being mislead into believing it's going to be sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. 'Cause it ain't.
quote: Did you actually know this woman personally or are you basing your opinion on one side of a WOW war story?
No. Like I said, us MO wows that year saw each other every couple months throughout the year. But in late April, all us wows got to do something most wows probably never got to do. We drove up to the limb city early Friday AM and drove a bus all the way to HQ for the weekend. I got a bigger exposure to all those people in a whole weekend than previously. The girl had already been removed as family cordo and she seemed noticeably more relaxed. I never saw her again after the wow year, but 3 years afterward I heard she'd gotten married, still in twi.
Socks: I don't know what the fascination is; sometimes I post stuff that I'd been thinking about just to see what the reaction is. Not as being sensational, but as something I think about that I want to put through the GSC litmus test, so to speak. The gun bit? Yeah, I guess that makes a good war story. Murdered? Never heard about anything like that.
johnster, the fascination is the way you paint this topic - how people can deal with these kinds of situations by using resources "outside" the in-house, inexperienced outreach group and you refer to that as "government intervention" and jump to saying that such actions mean that people can't be free to handle their own affairs privately.
You placed it in a context that's completely out of context.
I believe it was in 1979 when I heard through the Way Trunk office about a WOW family where one of the men had shot another person, I believe it was a person in the WOW family. When I heard about it, I recognized the person as someone I'd known from years before, a very nice guy and the last person I'd have ever expected to hear of doing something like that but clearly he had. I'm sorry to say I don't recall if the person shot was killed, I don't believe so but I don't remember all the details now. It was really a shock and sad to say the least. To be honest I don't remember the details of what happened and why, I don't think I ever learned the whole story. It was a terrible incident and completely outside anything that anyone at the Way or within the WOW program would have expected or perhaps even thought possible, yet it happened.
These kinds of things aren't "war stories". Kids having adventures. Not when there's violence and shooting.
It's not stylish psycho babble to say that one's "boundaries" and personal rights are important and need to be respected. It's common decency and a matter of simple respect for other people.
In the Way leaders argued against "moral" judgments and supposedly elevated "the Word" as the "standard". There were people who used that to advantage. If you said you simply didn't "like" something or thought something was "wrong" that wasn't good enough - you had to have a verse, a teaching reference, a dammed greek lexicon to get them to even listen and even then they'd wiggle and argue if they wanted to be right and do whatever it was they wanted to do. Then they'd tell you you were possessed, obviously, for questioning their filthy self righteous right to always be right.
When someone who's been "taught the Word as it hasn't been known since the first century" needs a bible verse to be told to behave in a manner that's loving, caring and respectful to others - they're probably not going to listen to that bible verse. The manner in which many of the so-called "leaders" of the Way handled common day to day matters fed this kind of image and people picked up on it - they would see them shining it on when confronted, side stepping issues and it was easy for others to assume the same behavior.
But the WOW families should have been places where people could learn together and have a decent year in the program.
Hopefully the Sowers bunch have learned from some of these lessons. If they haven't it's their own dammed fault, they've got enough tenured gray hair in that group that's for sure. I'll assume better from them and wish them the best.
If they haven't it's their own dammed fault, they've got enough tenured gray hair in that group that's for sure
gray, yes, tenured, no..
one of them sold his soul to me for a single tank of gas. I guess he didn't want to break the hundred or whatever it was pops sent him out to cruise the town with..
That was back in the seventies.. cost? about $8.00.
I believe it was in 1979 when I heard through the Way Trunk office about a WOW family where one of the men had shot another person, I believe it was a person in the WOW family. When I heard about it, I recognized the person as someone I'd known from years before, a very nice guy and the last person I'd have ever expected to hear of doing something like that but clearly he had. I'm sorry to say I don't recall if the person shot was killed, I don't believe so but I don't remember all the details now. It was really a shock and sad to say the least. To be honest I don't remember the details of what happened and why, I don't think I ever learned the whole story. It was a terrible incident and completely outside anything that anyone at the Way or within the WOW program would have expected or perhaps even thought possible, yet it happened.
I can see why twi wouldn't want this known. During my wow year a wow in Alabama was killed in a car wreck. That's the worst I remember hearing about. Nothing violent ever happened in my wow family. But since nobody got hurt and no 3rd party authorities got involved I'd call it a war story.
There is a current gsc poster who was on the lam for something very serious, then got witnessed to by a wow in another state and told the wow what had been done. The wow never ratted the person out. Seems to be fine now, but that person's life could have turned out very different if the wow called in any authorities just to "do the right thing".
We believed God was very interested in our personal lives; that we lived above the world; that God's justice is better than man's. Why do people here seem to think that God was never present when wows were trying to move the word? Really, I think if those wows would have called the police and let them handle it (when the guy pointed the gun at them) nobody, even the guy who pointed the gun, would have ultimately felt it was automatically the wrong thing to do. Same for the Zachary Brodeur situation. I bet those twi people are glad he's off the street. But I'm also glad it turned out not to be necessary for those wows.
I don't know that the Way didn't want that incident known, or did anything to hide it. Obviously it was a sensitive situation and I'd expect care would be given to the concerns of everyone involved. I don't remember much of the details around it however.
To recap my own illustrious and vital opinions on this part of the discussion:
How people handle their own business is a personal decision, of course. Every incident between people wouldn't be cause to call the police or find some civil authority to get involved to arbitrate or take control. There has to be some judgment involved and people have the privilege of making their own decisions about how to handle things.
The law of the land applies to all - local, state and federal as well as whatever the social norms are in our own spheres of activity. When our actions fall outside those laws and standards we may well expect to encounter confrontation and enforcement, that's part of the system we live in and why we have laws and standards. They're not always fairly applied or even make sense in all situations - which is why it's always best to stay out of the gray areas as much as possible and certainly stay within the law of the land at the minimum.
The Way had a closed corporation mentality to it's own problems and issues, for all of it's years. That' lack of outside influence is IMO a major reason as to why it failed and appears to continue to do so. They make the rules, they enforce them, or don't as they see fit. They're not accountable to anyone outside their own authority - they think - and that's how they act. They've always had an "us versus everyone else" mentality, where God is on their side and anyone who differs is on the "Devil's" side.
That lack of connectivity to the outside world has created an environment that is what I'd call "high risk". It depends on the reliability and consistency of specific individuals, "leadership" and to a degree the individual member who makes decisions within the framework of doctrine that they're taught. When that fails - and it always does and always will at some point, the "weakest link" principle goes into effect and dominoes up and/or down the organization. There haven't been sufficient protections and back ups built into the system to reinforce failure when it occurs, instead they expect that if everyone believes God and everyone does the right thing as they've been instructed everything will be alright. Once we look at how all that sets up and works in real time, it can be seen to be VERY high risk and even dangerous.
I'm not suggesting it's dangerous trusting in God, or using the Bible as our standard - but rather that The Way obviously doesn't have the ability to live that way responsibly and make it work. That's painfully clear by the snowball of conflict, problems and failure that have followed it throughout it's history. People do well sometimes, sometimes efforts succeed, there's good work done at times but overall, the foundations of how it works as an organization aren't sound enough to allow for measurable growth, progress and success. I doubt anyone outside of the Way Nash today would consider it a successful endeavor and anyone outside the Way Nash won't be allowed access into what they do, how they do it and who does what to either understand or contribute - so it's a running cycle of failure IMO. Good enough for those who don't get too involved and don't let them get too tight a hold on them.
How this relates to the "WOW" program -well, my involvement was nearly 40 years ago - all of this regurgitation I'm coughing up is old fish wrap and doesn't really mean much of anything. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this now, to be honest.
To theorize on how someone whipping out a pistol in a group and what would be the right thing to do - I dunno, I don't know if I would call the police to be honest. I might, it would depend on the people and circumstance. I can see some people would and that would be fine by me if they felt threatened - don't see how you couldn't feel threatened. Why would anyone think it necessary to do such a thing? Me, I can promise you then or now, it would get ugly real fast, once I'd disarmed the person. If I couldn't I'd get away from them. I don't treat that kind of thing lightly, never have, never will, it's not a joke or a social faux pas or a so-what deal. I'd do whatever I could to beat the crap out of them just on principle for doing such a stupid thing. I'm an old guy, I don't have the energy for anything that would take too long, it would be quick and conclusive, guaranteed.
Put it this way - pull a gun in front of a Police Officer, just to make a point - and see what happens. Report back with the "war story" on that one and how it was appropriate and wasn't a problem.
God - this is so interminably long I can't even remember what time I started. Why do I do this? Perhaps a smiley will pull it all together. Yeah, that works.
There is a current gsc poster who was on the lam for something very serious, then got witnessed to by a wow in another state and told the wow what had been done. The wow never ratted the person out. Seems to be fine now, but that person's life could have turned out very different if the wow called in any authorities just to "do the right thing".
Maybe you know this , maybe you don't. What that WOW did was illegal and could have resulted in jail time. (aiding and abetting, harboring a fugitive, etc.) Maybe, in the big scheme of things, it (keeping silent) turned out to be "the right thing". Not for me to judge. Never the less, it was illegal and could have had serious repercussions for that WOW. That's fodder for thought.
We believed God was very interested in our personal lives; that we lived above the world;
You didn't live above the world, you just thought you did. That's one of the characteristics that appears frequently in groups that get labeled as cults.
that God's justice is better than man's.
Why do people here seem to think that God was never present when wows were trying to move the word?
Two problems here. First, I haven't seen anyone saying God wasn't present. That's a facet that was introduced by you. Second, what the WOWs were trying to move was not "the word", it was PFAL. It says so right there in black and white in the W&U syllabus. I referenced that in another post
Really, I think if those wows would have called the police and let them handle it (when the guy pointed the gun at them) nobody, even the guy who pointed the gun, would have ultimately felt it was automatically the wrong thing to do. Same for the Zachary Brodeur situation. I bet those twi people are glad he's off the street. But I'm also glad it turned out not to be necessary for those wows.
There are lots of incidents of psychological abuse, sexual abuse, violence and, yes, even murder, that were simply never reported to the general populace of The Way. Many of them were brought to the attention of upper management at The Way. (Alaska and Alabama seem to ring a bell for me.) In some cases, The Way chose to resolve the problem by relocating the individual to another area where their indiscretions would not be known. In some of the others, the perpetrators were tried and convicted. Part of the purpose of this site is to expose those incidents, not sweep them under the carpet like The Way did. I encourage anyone to search these pages for more detailed information. It's here if you really want to find it.
The WOW program, like most TWI initiatives, was a mixed bag. To the extent that committed people with a genuine heart to love God and serve Christ volunteered and gave it their best effort, good things happened. To the extent that shallow people blindly following suggestions from "leadership" or pursuing a career path used it as a means of gaining approval, status or some other carnal objective, bad things happened. Sometimes tragic things.
I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs. God is merciful and blesses people with humble hearts, even those who are mixed up in corrupt organizations.
The underlying problem with the WOW program is that the people who administered it did so with a level of deceit that undermines the stated nature of the program. Making assignments by throwing darts and tossing coins is a far cry from getting revelation from God as to where to send people. Refusing to remove or discipline someone who was sexually abusing his or her "family" members is blatantly irresponsible for a so-called Christian organization. (or any group that claims to follow and represent Jesus Christ).
It would be nice if the current leadership at TWI learned from past mistakes and managed it honestly and humbly, doing their best to see that God's will was done and that the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ was the program's first and highest goal. But, based on past performance, I doubt very much that will happen.
Waysider said: There are lots of incidents of psychological abuse, sexual abuse, violence and, yes, even murder, that were simply never reported to the general populace of The Way. Many of them were brought to the attention of upper management at The Way. (Alaska and Alabama seem to ring a bell for me.) In some cases, The Way chose to resolve the problem by relocating the individual to another area where their indiscretions would not be known. In some of the others, the perpetrators were tried and convicted. Part of the purpose of this site is to expose those incidents, not sweep them under the carpet like The Way did. I encourage anyone to search these pages for more detailed information. It's here if you really want to find it.
Far more incidents than have ever been discussed here, I am sure. Part of the problem was leadership who wanted to sweep things under the rug, lest "the ministry be blamed." Another problem were leaders who were in over their heads and simlply had no idea how to handle such difficult situations, in conjunction with the ministry line that you didn't seek outside/wordly counsel.
What I went through at the hands of my ex . . . it wasn't a secret. People knew. I remember when it first started and I went to my twig coordators - people I loved and trusted and to this day still believe were genuine, well-intentioned people. I honestly believe they wanted to do right, but were in way over their heads (pun intended).
Unfortunately, what they said, the counsel they gave made everything worse. It amounted to putting the blame on me, something I was all too willing to accept -because that is what women who are abused do. They blame themselves. And then they blamed me too. The whole thing made me feel crazy. I have no way to describe it to someone who has never experienced it and I am so thankful that there is a place (here) where there are women who do get it. I'm not happy that they experienced anything aking to what I did, but I am relieved to know there are people who understand.
"I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs."
That's why I'm of the opinion that it so important to come to a realization that W.O.W. (and the other programs) were NOT some special, noble undertaking. We weren't "God's elite", to restate a popular cliche. We were just another zealous organization, doing the same things that thousands of other zealous organizations have done and continue to do. Sure, people had some good times, met some great people, experienced personal growth. I would never want to deny anyone their memories of those things. But, unless we can see it in perspective, we become like Al Bundy from Married With Children, who constantly relives his
and exaggerates their importance to a pedestal-worthy level.
Edited by waysider
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PatAnswer
Johniam, I'm so glad you're here. When I was lurking on this site there were times when I considered that maybe what I learned and how I thought while in TWI was not all that bad, that we're all just
OperaBuff
Whaddaya mean, throw darts? God Himself chose my WOW brother for me. ha. ha ha. haha. hahaha. Haha! Hahaha!! HAHAHAHA!!! My WOW brother was also our family coordinator for the first few month
Broken Arrow
He should have been removed from the field via Super Sonic Transport. Most other organizations would have done so. That would have been pure hell to live with for an entire year. That's sexual abuse,
Ham
Somehow, I can't bring myself to believe that this little "miracle" can be attributed to "saint" vic..
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frank123lol
Rehash,Vic get a job a life you ain't who you think you are.Or as granddad said a familar spirit.
Try somthing new.Gee there a thought!!
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johniam
I see a common theme here: apparently society has gotten to the point that it is now taboo for a household or an organization to try to handle something in house. No, as soon as a situation gets tricky we must drop everything and farm it out to a third party. We're too stupid to do anything without government intervention. Wait. What was it....
"Obey the government, for there is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power". Can't have these wows out there spreading God's word. No way to control them.
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waysider
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socks
It's perfectly okay and right for an organization or household to handle "something" itself/themselves.....
But as the great philosopher Harry Callahan said - a man's got to know his own limitations. (applies to women too).
I believe the quote you're taking exception too:
Had this guy gone on to do something horrific then I'm sure we would have read in the paper how he once threatened 3 christian missionaries with a loaded gun. And people would have thought "that's where it should have stopped, why didn't they report it?"
To answer your question -
As far as me/mine/us goes - yes. Absolutely. If you pull a gun on me, I'm going to call in the authorities, the police, you-name-it, immediately. Threaten me and not back off, same. Threaten my family, ditto. Do me or mine harm, authority-r-us, you're going to feel like the captain of the Titanic just before it hit the iceberg and he said "Is that ice I see over the-----"
Now - given the response time for 911 can be slow, I'm not going to wait, I will "handle it" myself but that may be a bad option for all involved. As a "WOW" I would never have tolerated the kind of behavior described here - and guns? Forget it, no way, you're out.
You're reminding me of Graeser and Lynn, who have said they like to 'drop bombs' here and other places where they can mess with people. Basically - they're as s holes and I'd love for them or others of their ilk to do that in person face to face but they prefer to duck and hide and mess with people online, rather than engage in a discussion. In person you could grab them by the collar and wring their buck teeth out, but online, you can't. Just sayin' - their methodology is similar to you, here.
so what is it with you - why do you deliberately digress and deliberately switch to topics where you can attack - as you switch off topic. Do you drink, are you medicated? I'm not kidding or being sarcastic, I'm trying to get a better view of what your thought processes are, so I can participate in your comments.
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Abigail
Thanks, Socks. For as long as he has been here, I have tended to take him seriously and to honestly try to understand his viewpoint. Perhaps you just hit the nail on the head. Maybe it is all just one giant mind game. And even if it isn't, perhaps it is better if I just never do understand some people.
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socks
Well.....I just don't get it either. It seems that where the topic started around the WOW program that the Sowers have initiated and has swung around to various sides of that topic - which would seem natural - we're suddenly reading that for a group of people -
"Christian" ambassadors - out to spread the Good News, live life and learn better how to live in harmony with themselves and their community.........
and what I would hope would be extreme examples of un-Christian, unloving, basically screwball actions and in some cases illegal behavior....
and the idea that to call the police - "report it" - in the case of some nut wielding a gun at people - is out of line and equal to "government intervention"......:o:doh:
Pull a gun on me and you'd better HOPE the government intervenes because that will NOT be tolerated. Firearms - that's a no-go, no free pass, no nothing.
The fact that this kind of insanity was allowed to exist on any level for any amount of time, to be handled "in house", is ridiculous.
At the least you disarm the idiots, pack them up and get them the h away. But doing it that way there IS a risk because anyone who feels they can pull a gun out and try to bad as s people with it is likely going to run aground somewhere down the line and then YES, you will know the horror of having NOT been a part of helping anyone but an enabler of the damage.
Some of this crap isn't in a range I'd expect your average person to handle. Some stuff you can talk through and get on with it but me, we're not going sit around and sing Amazing Grace and renew our minds to the Word if you pull a gun or exhibit violent behavior or insist on being a major pain in the butt because you think it's funny or worse yet, "God told you" to do it. It's not funny and if He did tell you to do it He'd better show up on your behalf with a golden rainbow or it's going to stop quick.
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waysider
It's not the first time I've heard of this kind of thing. In fact, there have been reports here of incidents where W.O.W.s were actually murdered by members of their W.O.W. families. If it's all a joke, I must say, I just don't get the punchline. This is why I sincerely hope this new wave of W.O.W.s are not being mislead into believing it's going to be sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. 'Cause it ain't.
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johniam
quote: Did you actually know this woman personally or are you basing your opinion on one side of a WOW war story?
No. Like I said, us MO wows that year saw each other every couple months throughout the year. But in late April, all us wows got to do something most wows probably never got to do. We drove up to the limb city early Friday AM and drove a bus all the way to HQ for the weekend. I got a bigger exposure to all those people in a whole weekend than previously. The girl had already been removed as family cordo and she seemed noticeably more relaxed. I never saw her again after the wow year, but 3 years afterward I heard she'd gotten married, still in twi.
Socks: I don't know what the fascination is; sometimes I post stuff that I'd been thinking about just to see what the reaction is. Not as being sensational, but as something I think about that I want to put through the GSC litmus test, so to speak. The gun bit? Yeah, I guess that makes a good war story. Murdered? Never heard about anything like that.
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waysider
I'm not very good at doing searches. It's all here in the pages of GSC, though, for anyone who really wants to know.
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socks
johnster, the fascination is the way you paint this topic - how people can deal with these kinds of situations by using resources "outside" the in-house, inexperienced outreach group and you refer to that as "government intervention" and jump to saying that such actions mean that people can't be free to handle their own affairs privately.
You placed it in a context that's completely out of context.
I believe it was in 1979 when I heard through the Way Trunk office about a WOW family where one of the men had shot another person, I believe it was a person in the WOW family. When I heard about it, I recognized the person as someone I'd known from years before, a very nice guy and the last person I'd have ever expected to hear of doing something like that but clearly he had. I'm sorry to say I don't recall if the person shot was killed, I don't believe so but I don't remember all the details now. It was really a shock and sad to say the least. To be honest I don't remember the details of what happened and why, I don't think I ever learned the whole story. It was a terrible incident and completely outside anything that anyone at the Way or within the WOW program would have expected or perhaps even thought possible, yet it happened.
These kinds of things aren't "war stories". Kids having adventures. Not when there's violence and shooting.
It's not stylish psycho babble to say that one's "boundaries" and personal rights are important and need to be respected. It's common decency and a matter of simple respect for other people.
In the Way leaders argued against "moral" judgments and supposedly elevated "the Word" as the "standard". There were people who used that to advantage. If you said you simply didn't "like" something or thought something was "wrong" that wasn't good enough - you had to have a verse, a teaching reference, a dammed greek lexicon to get them to even listen and even then they'd wiggle and argue if they wanted to be right and do whatever it was they wanted to do. Then they'd tell you you were possessed, obviously, for questioning their filthy self righteous right to always be right.
When someone who's been "taught the Word as it hasn't been known since the first century" needs a bible verse to be told to behave in a manner that's loving, caring and respectful to others - they're probably not going to listen to that bible verse. The manner in which many of the so-called "leaders" of the Way handled common day to day matters fed this kind of image and people picked up on it - they would see them shining it on when confronted, side stepping issues and it was easy for others to assume the same behavior.
But the WOW families should have been places where people could learn together and have a decent year in the program.
Hopefully the Sowers bunch have learned from some of these lessons. If they haven't it's their own dammed fault, they've got enough tenured gray hair in that group that's for sure. I'll assume better from them and wish them the best.
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Ham
I remember a time..
I called a "leader(?)" on having the sexual morality of a guinea pig..
there was no accusation of being possessed, but.. I will never forget the blood curdling squeal..
"How DARE you touch MY righteousnesssssss.. hisssss.. rowler.. pfft.."
I thought his head was about to spin around and pop off or something..
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Ham
This was the same guy who I witnessed his own father telling him "hmm. It seems that you are using the bible to go to hell.."
"rowler, hisssss, pfft.."
it was sort of amusing, in a twisted kind of way..
hey.. I was just sent to observe here..
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Ham
gray, yes, tenured, no..
one of them sold his soul to me for a single tank of gas. I guess he didn't want to break the hundred or whatever it was pops sent him out to cruise the town with..
That was back in the seventies.. cost? about $8.00.
I'm calling in the debt..
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johniam
quote:
I believe it was in 1979 when I heard through the Way Trunk office about a WOW family where one of the men had shot another person, I believe it was a person in the WOW family. When I heard about it, I recognized the person as someone I'd known from years before, a very nice guy and the last person I'd have ever expected to hear of doing something like that but clearly he had. I'm sorry to say I don't recall if the person shot was killed, I don't believe so but I don't remember all the details now. It was really a shock and sad to say the least. To be honest I don't remember the details of what happened and why, I don't think I ever learned the whole story. It was a terrible incident and completely outside anything that anyone at the Way or within the WOW program would have expected or perhaps even thought possible, yet it happened.
I can see why twi wouldn't want this known. During my wow year a wow in Alabama was killed in a car wreck. That's the worst I remember hearing about. Nothing violent ever happened in my wow family. But since nobody got hurt and no 3rd party authorities got involved I'd call it a war story.
There is a current gsc poster who was on the lam for something very serious, then got witnessed to by a wow in another state and told the wow what had been done. The wow never ratted the person out. Seems to be fine now, but that person's life could have turned out very different if the wow called in any authorities just to "do the right thing".
We believed God was very interested in our personal lives; that we lived above the world; that God's justice is better than man's. Why do people here seem to think that God was never present when wows were trying to move the word? Really, I think if those wows would have called the police and let them handle it (when the guy pointed the gun at them) nobody, even the guy who pointed the gun, would have ultimately felt it was automatically the wrong thing to do. Same for the Zachary Brodeur situation. I bet those twi people are glad he's off the street. But I'm also glad it turned out not to be necessary for those wows.
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socks
I don't know that the Way didn't want that incident known, or did anything to hide it. Obviously it was a sensitive situation and I'd expect care would be given to the concerns of everyone involved. I don't remember much of the details around it however.
To recap my own illustrious and vital opinions on this part of the discussion:
How people handle their own business is a personal decision, of course. Every incident between people wouldn't be cause to call the police or find some civil authority to get involved to arbitrate or take control. There has to be some judgment involved and people have the privilege of making their own decisions about how to handle things.
The law of the land applies to all - local, state and federal as well as whatever the social norms are in our own spheres of activity. When our actions fall outside those laws and standards we may well expect to encounter confrontation and enforcement, that's part of the system we live in and why we have laws and standards. They're not always fairly applied or even make sense in all situations - which is why it's always best to stay out of the gray areas as much as possible and certainly stay within the law of the land at the minimum.
The Way had a closed corporation mentality to it's own problems and issues, for all of it's years. That' lack of outside influence is IMO a major reason as to why it failed and appears to continue to do so. They make the rules, they enforce them, or don't as they see fit. They're not accountable to anyone outside their own authority - they think - and that's how they act. They've always had an "us versus everyone else" mentality, where God is on their side and anyone who differs is on the "Devil's" side.
That lack of connectivity to the outside world has created an environment that is what I'd call "high risk". It depends on the reliability and consistency of specific individuals, "leadership" and to a degree the individual member who makes decisions within the framework of doctrine that they're taught. When that fails - and it always does and always will at some point, the "weakest link" principle goes into effect and dominoes up and/or down the organization. There haven't been sufficient protections and back ups built into the system to reinforce failure when it occurs, instead they expect that if everyone believes God and everyone does the right thing as they've been instructed everything will be alright. Once we look at how all that sets up and works in real time, it can be seen to be VERY high risk and even dangerous.
I'm not suggesting it's dangerous trusting in God, or using the Bible as our standard - but rather that The Way obviously doesn't have the ability to live that way responsibly and make it work. That's painfully clear by the snowball of conflict, problems and failure that have followed it throughout it's history. People do well sometimes, sometimes efforts succeed, there's good work done at times but overall, the foundations of how it works as an organization aren't sound enough to allow for measurable growth, progress and success. I doubt anyone outside of the Way Nash today would consider it a successful endeavor and anyone outside the Way Nash won't be allowed access into what they do, how they do it and who does what to either understand or contribute - so it's a running cycle of failure IMO. Good enough for those who don't get too involved and don't let them get too tight a hold on them.
How this relates to the "WOW" program -well, my involvement was nearly 40 years ago - all of this regurgitation I'm coughing up is old fish wrap and doesn't really mean much of anything. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this now, to be honest.
To theorize on how someone whipping out a pistol in a group and what would be the right thing to do - I dunno, I don't know if I would call the police to be honest. I might, it would depend on the people and circumstance. I can see some people would and that would be fine by me if they felt threatened - don't see how you couldn't feel threatened. Why would anyone think it necessary to do such a thing? Me, I can promise you then or now, it would get ugly real fast, once I'd disarmed the person. If I couldn't I'd get away from them. I don't treat that kind of thing lightly, never have, never will, it's not a joke or a social faux pas or a so-what deal. I'd do whatever I could to beat the crap out of them just on principle for doing such a stupid thing. I'm an old guy, I don't have the energy for anything that would take too long, it would be quick and conclusive, guaranteed.
Put it this way - pull a gun in front of a Police Officer, just to make a point - and see what happens. Report back with the "war story" on that one and how it was appropriate and wasn't a problem.
God - this is so interminably long I can't even remember what time I started. Why do I do this? Perhaps a smiley will pull it all together.
Yeah, that works.
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waysider
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cman
as a whole, neither twi or it's wow program, past or present
doesn't know what the word is nor how or who 'moves' it
as if we had some kind of power, never described, just that we had it
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Jbarrax
The WOW program, like most TWI initiatives, was a mixed bag. To the extent that committed people with a genuine heart to love God and serve Christ volunteered and gave it their best effort, good things happened. To the extent that shallow people blindly following suggestions from "leadership" or pursuing a career path used it as a means of gaining approval, status or some other carnal objective, bad things happened. Sometimes tragic things.
I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs. God is merciful and blesses people with humble hearts, even those who are mixed up in corrupt organizations.
The underlying problem with the WOW program is that the people who administered it did so with a level of deceit that undermines the stated nature of the program. Making assignments by throwing darts and tossing coins is a far cry from getting revelation from God as to where to send people. Refusing to remove or discipline someone who was sexually abusing his or her "family" members is blatantly irresponsible for a so-called Christian organization. (or any group that claims to follow and represent Jesus Christ).
It would be nice if the current leadership at TWI learned from past mistakes and managed it honestly and humbly, doing their best to see that God's will was done and that the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ was the program's first and highest goal. But, based on past performance, I doubt very much that will happen.
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Abigail
Waysider said: There are lots of incidents of psychological abuse, sexual abuse, violence and, yes, even murder, that were simply never reported to the general populace of The Way. Many of them were brought to the attention of upper management at The Way. (Alaska and Alabama seem to ring a bell for me.) In some cases, The Way chose to resolve the problem by relocating the individual to another area where their indiscretions would not be known. In some of the others, the perpetrators were tried and convicted. Part of the purpose of this site is to expose those incidents, not sweep them under the carpet like The Way did. I encourage anyone to search these pages for more detailed information. It's here if you really want to find it.
Far more incidents than have ever been discussed here, I am sure. Part of the problem was leadership who wanted to sweep things under the rug, lest "the ministry be blamed." Another problem were leaders who were in over their heads and simlply had no idea how to handle such difficult situations, in conjunction with the ministry line that you didn't seek outside/wordly counsel.
What I went through at the hands of my ex . . . it wasn't a secret. People knew. I remember when it first started and I went to my twig coordators - people I loved and trusted and to this day still believe were genuine, well-intentioned people. I honestly believe they wanted to do right, but were in way over their heads (pun intended).
Unfortunately, what they said, the counsel they gave made everything worse. It amounted to putting the blame on me, something I was all too willing to accept -because that is what women who are abused do. They blame themselves. And then they blamed me too. The whole thing made me feel crazy. I have no way to describe it to someone who has never experienced it and I am so thankful that there is a place (here) where there are women who do get it. I'm not happy that they experienced anything aking to what I did, but I am relieved to know there are people who understand.
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waysider
"I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs."
.......................................................
Exactly!
That's why I'm of the opinion that it so important to come to a realization that W.O.W. (and the other programs) were NOT some special, noble undertaking. We weren't "God's elite", to restate a popular cliche. We were just another zealous organization, doing the same things that thousands of other zealous organizations have done and continue to do. Sure, people had some good times, met some great people, experienced personal growth. I would never want to deny anyone their memories of those things. But, unless we can see it in perspective, we become like Al Bundy from Married With Children, who constantly relives his
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waysider
TICK TOCK....TICK TOCK....TICK TOCK
Time is running out!
Tomorrow is the big day!
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skyrider
waysider.....according to their website, attached on your first post,
October 7th is the big day......not september 7th.
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waysider
OOPS!
I guess that's good news, though. That will give you plenty of time to stock up on Ramen noodles and get an oil change for your W.O.W-Mobile.
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