I retook an Old Testament class last semester, that I originally took about 42 years ago. There were a lot of freshmen and sophomores in the class who were straight out of Sunday school. Some of them came from literal inerrancy backgrounds. They had a lot of trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that the book of Job is a piece of fiction. One of them asked in class, "Is there anything we can actually read in the book of Job that tells us it's fiction?" So I googled "literary forms in the book of Job."
One of the things I found is that the book of Job is very heavy on irony, a feature that doesn't show up in English as well as it does in Hebrew. Now one of the definitions of irony is to use words in such a way as to convey a meaning that is the opposite of their literal meaning.
To say that there are no contradictions in the Bible denies God the use of irony in communcating His intended meaning.
The point of the book of Job is not to tell us how to go from being victim to victor (though a certain party used it to teach how to become a victim OF Victor), but to show us that there is NO easy answer to the problem of human suffering. The idea that God made a bet with the adversary is PURELY a literary device to explain how the suffering came on Job without giving away the punchline of the book, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."
We live in a state of tension between receiving the earnest of our inheritance and receiving the inheritance itself. For us, the Bible is FULL of contradictions, and to deny that is to succumb to the lust for certainty.
I think the 'point' of each book in the Bible is to show some facet of the Messiah. The book of Job included.
'Contradiction' can be taken in more than one way. Does the Bible teach separate and opposing doctrines? No I do not think so. Such would be a contradiction. Does the Bible use 'figures of speech'? which may be in the form of literary contradictions? yes, of course.
I think that anyone, who honestly cries to God for a closer walk with God, will in due time, be shown a closer walk. A walk un-like anyone else' walk with God. Each and everyone of us can be given revelation from God that would be unlike any given to anyone else since the time of Jesus' original disciples.
maybe the big question would be "does the Bible allow 'contradictory' or varying beliefs"..
one of my math gurus today hit me with some universal truth..
the robin. They build their nest in a frenzy, defend and feed their young with as much fierceness as a bird can display..
and suddenly. The offspring are just strong enough to leave the nest.. the parents simply fly away. That's it..
What happens to the parents belief that they must defend, feed, and support their offspring..
I mean.. it's just gone, isn't it?
Is there any love of god involved in this? It has to be..
I think your math guru might need to brush up on ornithology. The mother bird will continue to take care of the fledgelings for quite some time but will try to stay hidden so as not to attract predators.
I generally tend to believe in one or another version of reincarnation.. I have very real impressions of the last couple of lives..
and I would be just as happy to know that these are illusions..
one of them, I died in a war, with a picture of whoever was my sweetheart in my pocket. Must have been the 1800's. They didn't have that kind of technology before.. the background appears blue. Maybe that was the color I was wearing at the time..
another one, I was shot with a hand gun, because I slept with the bosses wife.. this was much more recent..
older past experiences, no. No remembrance..
I think your math guru might need to brush up on ornithology. The mother bird will continue to take care of the fledgelings for quite some time but will try to stay hidden so as not to attract predators.
Possibly. But it was what he observed.. they nested on the light on his front porch..
\
still. If she was hidden or not.. these birds had to fly out of the nest..
I believe that the writing and the editing and the canonization of the Bible were inspired by God, but for His purposes, not for ours.
I don't believe the Bible can be fruitfully understood without the leading of the Holy Spirit, that is to say, I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to use human logic to make it mean things that WE want it to say, if God means something different.
Among other things, the Bible is about life in this present evil age, and there are many things about life in this present evil age that are contradictory. Otherwise, what are we to make of the book of Ecclesiates? Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe!" Yet Ecclesiates 9:11 says, ...the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
If God had made the Bible fool proof, He would have defeated His own purposes, because He addressed it to a bunch of fools!
I generally tend to believe in one or another version of reincarnation.. I have very real impressions of the last couple of lives..
and I would be just as happy to know that these are illusions..
one of them, I died in a war, with a picture of whoever was my sweetheart in my pocket. Must have been the 1800's. They didn't have that kind of technology before.. the background appears blue. Maybe that was the color I was wearing at the time..
another one, I was shot with a hand gun, because I slept with the bosses wife.. this was much more recent..
older past experiences, no. No remembrance..
Possibly. But it was what he observed.. they nested on the light on his front porch..
\
still. If she was hidden or not.. these birds had to fly out of the nest..
I don't know much about the study of birds but I saw a bird today who died right before my eyes. I walked by a grove of trees and as I was passing I noticed a bird sitting up in some forage and thought it was odd that he didn't fly away. Then, as I came by he rolled over on his head and died. It was just ran over by something although nothing seemed to be around. In light of this post I think there are many things that we don't know about the bible or that we think we know and should maybe seek to unknow when it comes to the teaching from twi.
As for me, I'm just happy I got to be one of those birds who flew out of his cage before I got ran over by a dumptruck. <_<
Perhaps just as the robin cannot skip being an egg and get to hatchling, nor can it skip being a hatchling and learn how to fly, we cannot skip a period of "mythic-literal" faith (like twi) and still get to having a faith in reason. Nor can we skip such rational faith and still acquire faith in compassion...so on and so forth.
(That ladder seems to goes a long ways...in both directions. And so wherever we find ourselves...seems we are always somewhere in the middle, simply for being human. Rejoice.)
And, just as not all robins even live to see flight, not all humans live to see faith in reason, or live to see that unreasonably radical compassion, etc... So, while we cannot skip stages of faith, there also seems no guarantee that we grow beyond any given stage of faith. Though I pray we do...and we will, in general.
Yet, like eggs, and hatchlings, and young birds, and parental birds, and dying birds…and perhaps even dead birds...all faiths are valid and necessary…and all are incomplete.
This is why i say no, not "lies from hell"...more like a culture of arrested development...somewhere between "Intuitive-Projective" and "Mythic-Literal" based on Fowler's stages of faith. Maybe like being stuck somewhere between hatchling and flight.
Among other things, the Bible is about life in this present evil age, and there are many things about life in this present evil age that are contradictory. Otherwise, what are we to make of the book of Ecclesiates? Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe!" Yet Ecclesiates 9:11 says, ...the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
(snip)
Ecclesiastes is not about simple, pat answers. Among other things, Ecclesiastes is about the search for
the answers to the great questions of life, and the difficult things to understand-so long as we are limited
to our limited human perspective (which, pretty much, is us for life.)
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
I think the 'point' of each book in the Bible is to show some facet of the Messiah. The book of Job included.
'Contradiction' can be taken in more than one way. Does the Bible teach separate and opposing doctrines? No I do not think so. Such would be a contradiction. Does the Bible use 'figures of speech'? which may be in the form of literary contradictions? yes, of course.
I think that anyone, who honestly cries to God for a closer walk with God, will in due time, be shown a closer walk. A walk un-like anyone else' walk with God. Each and everyone of us can be given revelation from God that would be unlike any given to anyone else since the time of Jesus' original disciples.
I think the 'point' of each book in the Bible is to show some facet of the Messiah. The book of Job included.
I hold the same view, Galen, but probably not for the same reason you do. The Old Testament was written for the specific benefit of ONE, and ONLY ONE human being. There was ONE, and ONLY ONE human being who NEEDED to fully understand the Old Testament, and that ONE person was young Jesus of Nazareth!
Jesus of Nazareth had to learn just like every other human being, but He couldn't afford to learn by trial and error. The Old Testament describes what being drunk and engaging in prostitution and adultery are like so that Jesus wouldn't have to learn those things the hard way.
Every book of the Old Testament teaches something about the Messiah, because that was the only way Jesus could learn those things before He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Even so, I don't think the information began to come together for young Jesus until after He was led of the Spirit into the wilderness.
And the Old Testament is NOT a happy book with a happy ending. It is a book about a God who makes all kinds of promises to the nation of Israel, and those promises fail to come to pass. This view of the OT is known to current scholarship as the Doomed History of the Deuteronomist. It is the story of a DOOMED humanity, and a DOOMED nation, and up until the Sunday morning when they found the empty tomb, a DOOMED Messiah! And apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we all still face DOOM with all our senses.
It wasn't until after Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah that Jesus began teaching about His own personal doom, and I don't think He fully came to grips with the truth that God the Father wanted Him to die until Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemene. I think the book of Job was very much on Jesus mind in that garden. This is the point I think Jesus learned about the Messiah from the book of Job: despite all the theologizing claptrap about God and suffering, the fear of the Lord comes down to this, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him..." (Job 13:15).
Jesus trusted that God would raise Him from the dead, and that resurrection would be instrumental in God's fulfillment of all the other promises. So far, the only promises we've seen come to pass are the giving of the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31, and the outpouring of Spirit promised in Joel 2:28-32. But Paul had this to say:
"8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
"9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
"10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
"So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
"13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
"14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
"15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God." (II Corinthians 4:8-15)
We are STILL doomed in every respect, apart from our trust in the resurrection of the man Christ Jesus!
All roads eventually lead back to inerrancy, don't they?... "It all has to fit or the whole thing will fall apart."...Spend the rest of our lives trying to put square pegs in round holes...."No private interpretation"...Oh, heavens, don't you dare find any symbolism that isn't expressly stated....
Where would the fine arts be if everything always had to "fit", I wonder...."Oh, sorry, Mr. Stravinsky, we simply can not allow for this vile dissonance that defies current musical theory. It simply doesn't fit."
Of all the heinous things TWI and some of its off shoots have perpetrated and this is what you have the biggest problem with? Really?
There are tensions in the Bible that God deliberately wrote into it. The only way for an individual to resolve those tensions is to DECIDE what he or she is going to believe.
When TWI said there are no contradictions in the Bible, they said they were going to resolve those tensions for us. We wouldn't have to be responsible for our own believing. If we just believed what Wierwille said, everything would fit like a hand in a glove, we wouldn't have to DECIDE anything, and the tensions would be gone.
Yes, the idea that Wierwille's interpretation was inerrant was one of the biggest lies perpetrated. Notice that Tzaia didn't say it was THE biggest. She said it was ONE of the biggest. It pays to read what's written!
The claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible, and the offer of an inerrant interpretation, were the intellectual equivalent of love-bombing.
Waysider - My brother taught music. He loved the Rite of Spring, and always took great pleasure in recounting to his students the details of the riot that took place when it was first performed. Some of the musicians had to escape through the windows of the music hall!
There are tensions in the Bible that God deliberately wrote into it. The only way for an individual to resolve those tensions is to DECIDE what he or she is going to believe.
When TWI said there are no contradictions in the Bible, they said they were going to resolve those tensions for us. We wouldn't have to be responsible for our own believing. If we just believed what Wierwille said, everything would fit like a hand in a glove, we wouldn't have to DECIDE anything, and the tensions would be gone.
Yes, the idea that Wierwille's interpretation was inerrant was one of the biggest lies perpetrated. Notice that Tzaia didn't say it was THE biggest. She said it was ONE of the biggest. It pays to read what's written!
The claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible, and the offer of an inerrant interpretation, were the intellectual equivalent of love-bombing.
Waysider - My brother taught music. He loved the Rite of Spring, and always took great pleasure in recounting to his students the details of the riot that took place when it was first performed. Some of the musicians had to escape through the windows of the music hall!
Love,
Steve
I don't know Steve, I personally think that saying sex outside of marriage would heal a young unprotected and vulnerable woman was a pretty bad lie.....that spiders coming out of someone's nose in a vision could break up a marriage......pretty bad. All the women belonging to the king with a wink and a nod.....much worse than saying the bible doesn't contradict itself IMO.
Suicide being a direct result of the lie that adultery was okay if done in love of God....bad.
That the bible doesn't contradict itself? As a Christian understanding this just takes some time, prayer, patience......and a really good dose of a humble heart as a finite being....in relationship to an infinite God. Realizing we may never understand it all......that is life.
Dealing with the tensions in scripture.....welcome to Christianity 101.
Why is it we think we have to arrive at one end of the spectrum or the other?
For what is worth to you... I did read what she wrote and again.....with all the heinous acts perpetrated by TWI and its off-shoots......and I believe they are bigger than you realize......that the bible doesn't contradict itself is pretty low on the list. IMO
Quite an absolute statement....saying this is a lie from hell...no? Ironic too.
I don't think it was intentional, Geisha, but, the arguments you presented are of the straw-man variety. (ie: No one ever said those things are NOT heinous.) Acceptance of inerrancy, though, is VERY high on the list because it opens the door for a limitless array of misrepresentation of the intended message. Some of those misrepresentations are what facilitate the sorts of behaviors you referenced.
@Geisha - Tzaia wrote "ONE of the biggest", not just "THE biggest." And it was! If we hadn't bought the lie that TWI could give us the answers, why should we have fallen for any of their other perpetrations?
It well may be your opinion that they did many other things that were more terrible. Does that mean we all have to hold that opinion? Are we too supposed to speak the same things, like in TWI?
If somebody says something that's different from your opinion, then you might do well to consider WHY their opinion may be different, instead of just off-handedly rejecting it.
@Geisha - Tzaia wrote "ONE of the biggest", not just "THE biggest." And it was! If we hadn't bought the lie that TWI could give us the answers, why should we have fallen for any of their other perpetrations?
It well may be your opinion that they did many other things that were more terrible. Does that mean we all have to hold that opinion? Are we too supposed to speak the same things, like in TWI?
If somebody says something that's different from your opinion, then you might do well to consider WHY their opinion may be different, instead of just off-handedly rejecting it.
Love,
Steve
Off handed rejection? How many times have we had this conversation here with the same people?
What is your problem? I said in my opinion....there were far worse things....think whatever you like.I never asked you or anyone to agree with me. And Waysider, my comments don't make it a straw man argument....she said one of the biggest. I said it was low on the list. Comparing the list and where this falls IMO is not a straw man argument. Acceptance of inerrancy is high on your list...not mine. I have to wonder though....when was the last time you picked up a bible and really prayerfully considered things you call contradictions.
So, Steve, are there tensions intentionally written into the bible ....or is it a big lie that it doesn't it contradict itself? They are not the same thing?
BTW....YOU said it was a big lie because we bought the answers TWI gave us...Tazia didn't say that. She may have other reasons for believing that the bible doesn't contradict itself is a big lie.
Ya think?
Maybe before you jump all over me...she could articulate her argument.....so when I do disagree with her, as I have in the past over the same topic....you will have something to actually SNIPE about.
I don't believe the bible does contradict itself.....so...I don't believe it is a lie whether it came from TWI or not. I believe people have difficulty understanding scripture without a humble heart before the author. We may have put our faith in the wrong thing with TWI....PFAL and VP. It doesn't follow that because we bought into that theology......the bible contradicts itself and saying it doesn't is a big lie. VP is not the only one to ever make that claim....most bible believing Christians are in that boat.
To say that the Bible is either ALL true or ALL a lie is a false dichotomy. And it's not just a problem for ex-Wayfers.
When college freshmen and sophomores are exposed to what the Bible actually says, instead of the pabulum they were taught in Sunday school, it's a REAL shock to their systems, and too many of them turn to athiesm and agnosticism as a result.
Why is it irrelevant that I wonder when it was you last picked up the bible? My curiosity is not irrelevant to me . Considering your opinion...it seemed a reasonable curiosity. We are speaking OF the bible and you do have an opinion. How can you have an opinion if you haven't really searched the scriptures....at least a reasonable opinion about its seeming contradictions. That is why I wondered about the last time you gave it any serious and prayerful thought. Not irrelevant......just annoying.
So, it was a big lie because VP used inerrancy for his purposes and we fell for it....that makes the claim that the bible doesn't have contradictions a lie? But, then again....God purposely wrote tensions into scripture for us to decide what to believe?
Which is it? Is it a lie because VP used it or did God write tensions into scripture? OR did VP use the idea of inerrancy with a nefarious purpose? You know, it could just mean VP manipulated us with a peculiar twist on inerrancy. What I do know...is it can't be both a lie and God's purposeful handiwork at the same time. That is a contradiction.
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waysider
When I was a little kid, I went to Sunday school at The Brookside Missionary Baptist Church on Forestdale Ave. Like most kids, I suppose, I was somewhat baffled at the prospect of Noah cramming all th
Steve Lortz
The boundary between that which is objective and that which is subjective is the human mind. That which is subjective depends on the mind of the subject. That which is objective exists independently o
Tzaia
is IMO the notion that the bible doesn't contradict itself. Really?
Steve Lortz
I retook an Old Testament class last semester, that I originally took about 42 years ago. There were a lot of freshmen and sophomores in the class who were straight out of Sunday school. Some of them came from literal inerrancy backgrounds. They had a lot of trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that the book of Job is a piece of fiction. One of them asked in class, "Is there anything we can actually read in the book of Job that tells us it's fiction?" So I googled "literary forms in the book of Job."
One of the things I found is that the book of Job is very heavy on irony, a feature that doesn't show up in English as well as it does in Hebrew. Now one of the definitions of irony is to use words in such a way as to convey a meaning that is the opposite of their literal meaning.
To say that there are no contradictions in the Bible denies God the use of irony in communcating His intended meaning.
The point of the book of Job is not to tell us how to go from being victim to victor (though a certain party used it to teach how to become a victim OF Victor), but to show us that there is NO easy answer to the problem of human suffering. The idea that God made a bet with the adversary is PURELY a literary device to explain how the suffering came on Job without giving away the punchline of the book, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."
We live in a state of tension between receiving the earnest of our inheritance and receiving the inheritance itself. For us, the Bible is FULL of contradictions, and to deny that is to succumb to the lust for certainty.
Love,
Steve
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Galen
I think the 'point' of each book in the Bible is to show some facet of the Messiah. The book of Job included.
'Contradiction' can be taken in more than one way. Does the Bible teach separate and opposing doctrines? No I do not think so. Such would be a contradiction. Does the Bible use 'figures of speech'? which may be in the form of literary contradictions? yes, of course.
I think that anyone, who honestly cries to God for a closer walk with God, will in due time, be shown a closer walk. A walk un-like anyone else' walk with God. Each and everyone of us can be given revelation from God that would be unlike any given to anyone else since the time of Jesus' original disciples.
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sirguessalot
"lie from Hell" seems a bit of a stretch. One would first have to know a truth in order to lie about it.
i vote for profound misunderstanding.
Or a natural state of deluded ignorance.
Forgivable...for they know not what they do.
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Ham
Nice to see you again Galen..
maybe the big question would be "does the Bible allow 'contradictory' or varying beliefs"..
one of my math gurus today hit me with some universal truth..
the robin. They build their nest in a frenzy, defend and feed their young with as much fierceness as a bird can display..
and suddenly. The offspring are just strong enough to leave the nest.. the parents simply fly away. That's it..
What happens to the parents belief that they must defend, feed, and support their offspring..
I mean.. it's just gone, isn't it?
Is there any love of god involved in this? It has to be..
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waysider
I think your math guru might need to brush up on ornithology. The mother bird will continue to take care of the fledgelings for quite some time but will try to stay hidden so as not to attract predators.
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Ham
I generally tend to believe in one or another version of reincarnation.. I have very real impressions of the last couple of lives..
and I would be just as happy to know that these are illusions..
one of them, I died in a war, with a picture of whoever was my sweetheart in my pocket. Must have been the 1800's. They didn't have that kind of technology before.. the background appears blue. Maybe that was the color I was wearing at the time..
another one, I was shot with a hand gun, because I slept with the bosses wife.. this was much more recent..
older past experiences, no. No remembrance..
Possibly. But it was what he observed.. they nested on the light on his front porch..
\
still. If she was hidden or not.. these birds had to fly out of the nest..
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Steve Lortz
I believe that the writing and the editing and the canonization of the Bible were inspired by God, but for His purposes, not for ours.
I don't believe the Bible can be fruitfully understood without the leading of the Holy Spirit, that is to say, I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to use human logic to make it mean things that WE want it to say, if God means something different.
Among other things, the Bible is about life in this present evil age, and there are many things about life in this present evil age that are contradictory. Otherwise, what are we to make of the book of Ecclesiates? Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe!" Yet Ecclesiates 9:11 says, ...the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
If God had made the Bible fool proof, He would have defeated His own purposes, because He addressed it to a bunch of fools!
Love,
Steve
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Human without the bean
I don't know much about the study of birds but I saw a bird today who died right before my eyes. I walked by a grove of trees and as I was passing I noticed a bird sitting up in some forage and thought it was odd that he didn't fly away. Then, as I came by he rolled over on his head and died. It was just ran over by something although nothing seemed to be around. In light of this post I think there are many things that we don't know about the bible or that we think we know and should maybe seek to unknow when it comes to the teaching from twi.
As for me, I'm just happy I got to be one of those birds who flew out of his cage before I got ran over by a dumptruck. <_<
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sirguessalot
yeah Ham. apt analogy.
it seems stages of faith development are not minor adjustments in our worldviews (or Godviews), but radical leaps.
like the nest...what was once a victory and bonus eventually becomes a liability and a tomb.
and this ladder we are on has more than 2 rungs.
get used to contradictions and paradox.
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sirguessalot
Perhaps just as the robin cannot skip being an egg and get to hatchling, nor can it skip being a hatchling and learn how to fly, we cannot skip a period of "mythic-literal" faith (like twi) and still get to having a faith in reason. Nor can we skip such rational faith and still acquire faith in compassion...so on and so forth.
(That ladder seems to goes a long ways...in both directions. And so wherever we find ourselves...seems we are always somewhere in the middle, simply for being human. Rejoice.)
And, just as not all robins even live to see flight, not all humans live to see faith in reason, or live to see that unreasonably radical compassion, etc... So, while we cannot skip stages of faith, there also seems no guarantee that we grow beyond any given stage of faith. Though I pray we do...and we will, in general.
Yet, like eggs, and hatchlings, and young birds, and parental birds, and dying birds…and perhaps even dead birds...all faiths are valid and necessary…and all are incomplete.
This is why i say no, not "lies from hell"...more like a culture of arrested development...somewhere between "Intuitive-Projective" and "Mythic-Literal" based on Fowler's stages of faith. Maybe like being stuck somewhere between hatchling and flight.
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cman
funny, i think that's how so many feel they are on the edge of something
and just not quite sure what it is yet, just knowing or sensing
looking, and the hatchling just jumps, not really sure what is next
something else kicks in i think
we are such little ones in so many things, if we know less then we think
it takes that kind of release to move on to anywhere
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WordWolf
Ecclesiastes is not about simple, pat answers. Among other things, Ecclesiastes is about the search for
the answers to the great questions of life, and the difficult things to understand-so long as we are limited
to our limited human perspective (which, pretty much, is us for life.)
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
Nice one.
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Steve Lortz
I hold the same view, Galen, but probably not for the same reason you do. The Old Testament was written for the specific benefit of ONE, and ONLY ONE human being. There was ONE, and ONLY ONE human being who NEEDED to fully understand the Old Testament, and that ONE person was young Jesus of Nazareth!
Jesus of Nazareth had to learn just like every other human being, but He couldn't afford to learn by trial and error. The Old Testament describes what being drunk and engaging in prostitution and adultery are like so that Jesus wouldn't have to learn those things the hard way.
Every book of the Old Testament teaches something about the Messiah, because that was the only way Jesus could learn those things before He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Even so, I don't think the information began to come together for young Jesus until after He was led of the Spirit into the wilderness.
And the Old Testament is NOT a happy book with a happy ending. It is a book about a God who makes all kinds of promises to the nation of Israel, and those promises fail to come to pass. This view of the OT is known to current scholarship as the Doomed History of the Deuteronomist. It is the story of a DOOMED humanity, and a DOOMED nation, and up until the Sunday morning when they found the empty tomb, a DOOMED Messiah! And apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we all still face DOOM with all our senses.
It wasn't until after Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah that Jesus began teaching about His own personal doom, and I don't think He fully came to grips with the truth that God the Father wanted Him to die until Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemene. I think the book of Job was very much on Jesus mind in that garden. This is the point I think Jesus learned about the Messiah from the book of Job: despite all the theologizing claptrap about God and suffering, the fear of the Lord comes down to this, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him..." (Job 13:15).
Jesus trusted that God would raise Him from the dead, and that resurrection would be instrumental in God's fulfillment of all the other promises. So far, the only promises we've seen come to pass are the giving of the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31, and the outpouring of Spirit promised in Joel 2:28-32. But Paul had this to say:
"8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
"9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
"10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
"So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
"13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
"14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
"15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God." (II Corinthians 4:8-15)
We are STILL doomed in every respect, apart from our trust in the resurrection of the man Christ Jesus!
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Of all the heinous things TWI and some of its off shoots have perpetrated and this is what you have ONE of the biggest problem with? Really?
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waysider
All roads eventually lead back to inerrancy, don't they?... "It all has to fit or the whole thing will fall apart."...Spend the rest of our lives trying to put square pegs in round holes...."No private interpretation"...Oh, heavens, don't you dare find any symbolism that isn't expressly stated....
Where would the fine arts be if everything always had to "fit", I wonder...."Oh, sorry, Mr. Stravinsky, we simply can not allow for this vile dissonance that defies current musical theory. It simply doesn't fit."
Who wrote this fiendish Rite of Spring,
What right had he to write the thing,
Against our helpless ears to fling
Its crash, clash, cling, clang, bing, bang, bing?
And then to call it Rite of Spring,
The season when on joyous wing
The birds melodious carols sing
And harmony's in everything!
He who could write the Rite of Spring,
If I be right, by right should swing!
(Boston Herald, 1924)
.............................................................................
Inerrancy is the scourge of spiritual enlightenment.
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Steve Lortz
There are tensions in the Bible that God deliberately wrote into it. The only way for an individual to resolve those tensions is to DECIDE what he or she is going to believe.
When TWI said there are no contradictions in the Bible, they said they were going to resolve those tensions for us. We wouldn't have to be responsible for our own believing. If we just believed what Wierwille said, everything would fit like a hand in a glove, we wouldn't have to DECIDE anything, and the tensions would be gone.
Yes, the idea that Wierwille's interpretation was inerrant was one of the biggest lies perpetrated. Notice that Tzaia didn't say it was THE biggest. She said it was ONE of the biggest. It pays to read what's written!
The claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible, and the offer of an inerrant interpretation, were the intellectual equivalent of love-bombing.
Waysider - My brother taught music. He loved the Rite of Spring, and always took great pleasure in recounting to his students the details of the riot that took place when it was first performed. Some of the musicians had to escape through the windows of the music hall!
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
I don't know Steve, I personally think that saying sex outside of marriage would heal a young unprotected and vulnerable woman was a pretty bad lie.....that spiders coming out of someone's nose in a vision could break up a marriage......pretty bad. All the women belonging to the king with a wink and a nod.....much worse than saying the bible doesn't contradict itself IMO.
Suicide being a direct result of the lie that adultery was okay if done in love of God....bad.
That the bible doesn't contradict itself? As a Christian understanding this just takes some time, prayer, patience......and a really good dose of a humble heart as a finite being....in relationship to an infinite God. Realizing we may never understand it all......that is life.
Dealing with the tensions in scripture.....welcome to Christianity 101.
Why is it we think we have to arrive at one end of the spectrum or the other?
For what is worth to you... I did read what she wrote and again.....with all the heinous acts perpetrated by TWI and its off-shoots......and I believe they are bigger than you realize......that the bible doesn't contradict itself is pretty low on the list. IMO
Quite an absolute statement....saying this is a lie from hell...no? Ironic too.
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waysider
I don't think it was intentional, Geisha, but, the arguments you presented are of the straw-man variety. (ie: No one ever said those things are NOT heinous.) Acceptance of inerrancy, though, is VERY high on the list because it opens the door for a limitless array of misrepresentation of the intended message. Some of those misrepresentations are what facilitate the sorts of behaviors you referenced.
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Steve Lortz
@Geisha - Tzaia wrote "ONE of the biggest", not just "THE biggest." And it was! If we hadn't bought the lie that TWI could give us the answers, why should we have fallen for any of their other perpetrations?
It well may be your opinion that they did many other things that were more terrible. Does that mean we all have to hold that opinion? Are we too supposed to speak the same things, like in TWI?
If somebody says something that's different from your opinion, then you might do well to consider WHY their opinion may be different, instead of just off-handedly rejecting it.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Off handed rejection? How many times have we had this conversation here with the same people?
What is your problem? I said in my opinion....there were far worse things....think whatever you like.I never asked you or anyone to agree with me. And Waysider, my comments don't make it a straw man argument....she said one of the biggest. I said it was low on the list. Comparing the list and where this falls IMO is not a straw man argument. Acceptance of inerrancy is high on your list...not mine. I have to wonder though....when was the last time you picked up a bible and really prayerfully considered things you call contradictions.
So, Steve, are there tensions intentionally written into the bible ....or is it a big lie that it doesn't it contradict itself? They are not the same thing?
BTW....YOU said it was a big lie because we bought the answers TWI gave us...Tazia didn't say that. She may have other reasons for believing that the bible doesn't contradict itself is a big lie.
Ya think?
Maybe before you jump all over me...she could articulate her argument.....so when I do disagree with her, as I have in the past over the same topic....you will have something to actually SNIPE about.
I don't believe the bible does contradict itself.....so...I don't believe it is a lie whether it came from TWI or not. I believe people have difficulty understanding scripture without a humble heart before the author. We may have put our faith in the wrong thing with TWI....PFAL and VP. It doesn't follow that because we bought into that theology......the bible contradicts itself and saying it doesn't is a big lie. VP is not the only one to ever make that claim....most bible believing Christians are in that boat.
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waysider
Totally irrelevant.
See: (RED HERRING.)....(GENETIC FALLACY)
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Steve Lortz
To say that the Bible is either ALL true or ALL a lie is a false dichotomy. And it's not just a problem for ex-Wayfers.
When college freshmen and sophomores are exposed to what the Bible actually says, instead of the pabulum they were taught in Sunday school, it's a REAL shock to their systems, and too many of them turn to athiesm and agnosticism as a result.
In my opinion.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Why is it irrelevant that I wonder when it was you last picked up the bible? My curiosity is not irrelevant to me . Considering your opinion...it seemed a reasonable curiosity. We are speaking OF the bible and you do have an opinion. How can you have an opinion if you haven't really searched the scriptures....at least a reasonable opinion about its seeming contradictions. That is why I wondered about the last time you gave it any serious and prayerful thought. Not irrelevant......just annoying.
..................................................
So, it was a big lie because VP used inerrancy for his purposes and we fell for it....that makes the claim that the bible doesn't have contradictions a lie? But, then again....God purposely wrote tensions into scripture for us to decide what to believe?
Which is it? Is it a lie because VP used it or did God write tensions into scripture? OR did VP use the idea of inerrancy with a nefarious purpose? You know, it could just mean VP manipulated us with a peculiar twist on inerrancy. What I do know...is it can't be both a lie and God's purposeful handiwork at the same time. That is a contradiction.
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waysider
It's irrelevant because you should judge the post on the basis of the points that were raised, not on who raised them.
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