You might (since you've been a lurker for a while) have seen other threads on critical thinking. Many of us here feel as you do. It's very liberating to be able to use your God-given brain for ... thinking!!
In looking back, TWI seems to be a whole lot more about indoctrination to follow a personality or personalities in the organization as opposed to genuine learning of scriptures, following Jesus by example and relationship, or other healthy endeavors.
There is a lust for control in their actions and motives.
Great post, PatAnswer. Nice to "meet" you. You are not alone.
I've given lots of thought to the question of "what the heck happened to us?" that we would associate ourselves with an organization whose true workings were so hidden from our view, at least at the beginning. How did they successfully tamp down the critical thinking skills in so many people? Part of the answer, I think, is that their teachings and writings contained what appeared to be superb critical thinking, already done for us. Someone smarter, wiser, more experienced than we in biblical studies had already done the critical thinking for us. All that was left for us to do was follow the bouncing ball, nod our heads and say aaahh, yes, it all makes sense to me now. When we entrust our critical thinking ability to someone else, we surrender something vital to our own well being.
Critical thinking is selective. Yes, we're supposed to do it, but as humans, we need to let down our guard at times. That's what families are for. If I have to engage critical thinking every single time I talk to anybody, I'm going to wear down eventually. I can relax around my family. So if twi is/was my spiritual family, then no big deal.
quote: This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I?
Compare Eve's situation to the other time in scripture the devil appeared personally to a human; Jesus being tempted in Matt 4 and Luke 4. Both times something huge was at stake. Eve, and later Adam were deceived; Jesus was not. The "critical thinking" Jesus used was "it is written". Bibliolatry? Mind control? Who can tell?
Critical thinking is selective. Yes, we're supposed to do it, but as humans, we need to let down our guard at times. That's what families are for. If I have to engage critical thinking every single time I talk to anybody, I'm going to wear down eventually. I can relax around my family. So if twi is/was my spiritual family, then no big deal.
{THERE'S one difference between twi experience being a "costly lesson" and "mistakes one can repeat across a lifetime."
We can RELAX around our family and friends. That does not mean we SHUT OFF OUR CRITICAL THINKING around family and friends.
That's the difference between having "wait a minute" moments a few hours after someone says something clever yet
manipulative, and SILENCING ANY DOUBT when someone says something clever yet manipulative. Someone might fool me for
a minute or even a few hours, but let me get in a good night's sleep, and I'll have their clever game figured out.
When I was young and naive, I learned too many lessons about people being clever in many ways and manipulative in all
of them. Now I may RELAX but I don't shut off my critical thinking skills.
I know I'm not the only person here who's been lied to by family or had family ATTEMPT to manipulate them. I know I'm
not the only person here who's had friends lie to them or attempt to manipulate them. When it comes to "spiritual family",
I know I'm not the only person here who's had "spiritual family" lie to them or attempt to manipulate them.
There was a thread recently on how some wayfers had to take to court a member of their "spiritual family" because
he lied to them and manipulated them. It worked because they shut off their critical thinking skills with their
"spiritual family" and got taken for a LOT of money.
"Trust but verify" is a famous saying in many languages, down the centuries. When it comes to family, we can
do that. To shut off critical thinking is to set up self and others for ANOTHER big fall. It's how we all got
taken the first time with twi- and if we can't see that, we set ourselves up for people to do the same thing
to us over and over....in splinter groups, other so-called Christians, outside religious contexts....
Confidence men and snake-oil salesmen LOVE the naive-those who have a criteria for shutting off their
critical thinking.]
quote: This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I?
Compare Eve's situation to the other time in scripture the devil appeared personally to a human; Jesus being tempted in Matt 4 and Luke 4. Both times something huge was at stake. Eve, and later Adam were deceived; Jesus was not. The "critical thinking" Jesus used was "it is written". Bibliolatry? Mind control? Who can tell?
[Actually, the SOURCE CITATION Jesus did was "It Is Written." The "critical thinking" Jesus used at the time
was to EVALUATE THE SITUATION. Even when satan ATTEMPTED to quote Scripture to Jesus- AND MISUSE IT because he
MISQUOTED IT- Jesus saw past the MISUSE OF SCRIPTURE, no matter how cleverly done, and evaluated the quote,
the situation, and the rest of Scripture independently.
Eve, on the other hand, "thought" with her lusts. She did NOT use "critical thinking." A cold analysis of
the situation would have told her that her conclusion required her to consider God a liar- which was
inconsistent with everything she knew about Him. Therefore, the one who contradicted God outright was
a liar- and could not be trusted to give a reliable analysis of the situation. However, she heard what
she WANTED to hear- and shut off her "critical thinking."
People who hear a bunch of speeches about how the organization is a loving family and how its leader
loves them so much- and turn off their "critical thinking" in response, are people who join groups
like the earlier days of twi, or Jim Jones' group, or so many other groups founded by liars, cheats,
and confidence men.
How can someone confuse Jesus' careful consideration- and "critical thinking"- for "mind control", or
"bibliolatry" or not even know what it was? The most likely possibility is them misunderstanding what
each term even means-thus making it easy to make mistakes. Other possibilities include understanding them
fully but choosing to blow smoke at the issues by throwing in irrelevant phrases and consideration.]
That's a great post about the temptations , Mr. Wordwolf - thanks for the thinking.
Pat, i like your name - what's the question?
In the matter of family versus thinking, I could talk to certain TWI friends in the same way that I could to family members, asking questions and trying to figure things out together was fine, no agenda suspected, but asking questions of others was often seen as an attack of some kind, and i learned to keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself. The very fact that I felt like that with some people got me to question other things that they said, so not a bad thing in the end.
What is the difference in meaning between the words 'family' and 'familiarity'? To borrow terminology from realtors, family is a fixed relationship and familiarity is an adjustable one. Fifty years ago me, my parents and my siblings all lived under the same roof. We were not only family, but we were familiar with each other's comings and goings every day. Now we're all still family, but we're more familiar with others. I think that's healthy.
VP is not my immediate family. I still respect him as father in the word et al but in twi my immediate family was those I saw pretty much every day. Those are the people who helped me the most. Hurt, too.
No, you don't shut off your critical thinking skills but you do naturally relax around those you consider your immediate family more than around anybody else.
It took me a long time before I figured out that 'instafriends' was not how friendships truly develop, and a lot of the big excitement in the early days of my involvement was the instafriend community. But at the time it seemed real...making it seems real for others was pretty much what my wow year was about.
Hubby and I, being the dupes we were, continued to try making it real for others for a decade, even while all the ugliness smashed people left and right and all our work at being friends ended with people fleeing. Eventually it was us in the smasher...After 20 years(more for hubby) we came out of TWI with not even a handful of friends.
I think that there was a developmental component to why so many of us got involved in late adolescence, why critical thinking skills were so easily circumvented. Many of us had not matured developmentally, and that is a time of life when many changes and decisions are made--college, jobs, love relationships, marriages. Life was often an emotional turmoil. I think VPW was in his way a genius, able to recognise this fact. A born con man and manipulator.
I think VPW was in his way a genius, able to recognise this fact. A born con man and manipulator.
I don't think it's a cognizant skill that one hones and perfects. I think it's more of an instinctive kind of thing that some people have and some people don't. Wierwille had it.
This site has helped me tremendously to unravel most of the wrong teaching and (im)practical application of it that I received in TWI. I've got a ways to go yet but am very thankful for the progress I've made so far.
Now that I am somewhat clear in my thinking about who and what TWI is I've tried to go back and figure out how I fell for all of this. What was I thinking? Or, better yet, why was I not thinking?
In the "College Degrees and The Way" thread Twinky said "They stole my critical thinking ability". This is what I think happened to me. But rather than say someone stole it, I realize that I relinquished it, I set it down. Like getting someone to lay their weapon down they disarmed me. In retrospect (and for future application) I ask, why did I let them?
I suppose there were some things that softened me up first. I was introduced to TWI by a longtime friend, someone who was not at all the religious type. Their life seemed changed for the better. (by the way: they no longer "stand" in TWI) Then all the people that I met that were associated with TWI seemed so loving, caring. And they all attributed their loving actions to TWI and specifically PFAL. So I took it.
And I heard Wierwille say how God had told him that He'd teach him the word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others. I had never heard anyone make such a claim but I considered it, thought it might be possible. And in PFAL I heard things taught differently than I had been taught in my christian upbringing and I considered it, it made some sense.
But what I think really got me to drop my critical thinking was the section on "no private interpretation" or one's own letting loose. The example given of Maggie standing up and saying "well I think it means..." followed by Johnny saying "well I think it means...." reminded me of bible discussions that I had heard growing up, people's opinions. I didn't want more opinions. The bible was to interpret itself. Some easy sections were cited where the text clearly said what the answer was (the seven churches are..., the seven candle sticks are....). Made sense to me. Why guess?
This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I?
So to keep myself out of this damnation I wouldn't allow myself to consider that what I was being taught was wrong. I dropped my critical thinking and believed what I was being taught. I was being had.
Well, once I realized after all too many years that something was wrong I dared to critically look at what I had been taught, to (really) "make it my own". And it began to unravel, which was disconcerting at first but ultimately liberating. One of the first doctrines to fall was that of "no private interpretation". After looking at it from a fresh perspective I realized that for me that section had nothing to do with how I interpret the bible, but rather how we got it. Just look at the context. But I'm not here to convince anyone of what something means or doesn't mean...I suppose that would belong in the doctrinal forum.
And how often did I hear Wierwille and others say things like "it's just got to be this" or "in the original it says this" and it was all their own private interpretation, guesswork (and not good guesswork at that).
As far as the record of Eve is concerned: that's between God and her. But I do know that the basis of belief HAS to start with "Did God really say?". There's nothing wrong with considering what God says (said). It will hold up under scrutiny. As for adding, changing, deleting words: I'd say TWI is more guilty of this than most bible believing groups.
So I'm back to square one on a number of beliefs. That's good in many ways. From TWI I've had a good lesson on "what it is not". That's a good place to start. I know what Christianity is not, it is not TWI.
Peace
Great post PatAnswer. Whenever I think of what I lost to twi I try to gain some perspective by counting the blessings I now have as a result of leaving them. Everything I lost somehow pales in the distance to what I have now. Welcome!
Wow, that was the same exact verse that began the unraveling for me 6 years ago!!!!! 1Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Duh, it's what the Prophets wrote, not what I do with it........(((double slap to forhead))))
That's what happens when you think. You wake up and see.
So to keep myself out of this damnation I wouldn't allow myself to consider that what I was being taught was wrong. I dropped my critical thinking and believed what I was being taught. I was being had.
Peace
Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace.
Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something.
When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think.
I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people.
Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace.
I don't think twi "disarmed" me. Yes, there were 'bullies' but they didn't stop anyone from thinking. Same material over and over again? How is that really different from college or the military? I see twi as a greenhouse.
They took me out of the world for 8 years, beginning with my wow year. It was as though God allowed me to push the pause button on my life, get loved, nourished, and renewed in the 'greenhouse', and then go back and try it again. Amazing difference.
quote:
Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something.
When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think.
I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people.
What were you 'threatened' with? They taught us we were born again of incorruptible seed and we were going to be at the gathering together no matter what. They couldn't threaten us with hell like the catholic and protestant churches routinely do. What threat?
There are people in lives, space, and heads in the military, too. But not for EVER. The reason there were/are exceptional people there is because twi was too Christian; they have an exceptional God. There was plenty of room for God to work despite the legalism.
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Twinky
Welcome, PatAnswer!
You might (since you've been a lurker for a while) have seen other threads on critical thinking. Many of us here feel as you do. It's very liberating to be able to use your God-given brain for ... thinking!!
Think on, and expect some suprises.
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chockfull
Good observations, Pat.
In looking back, TWI seems to be a whole lot more about indoctrination to follow a personality or personalities in the organization as opposed to genuine learning of scriptures, following Jesus by example and relationship, or other healthy endeavors.
There is a lust for control in their actions and motives.
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waysider
First cup is on the house.
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Ham
How did twi disarm me? They claimed to be my family.
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PatAnswer
Thanks Waysider, just like I like it.
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OperaBuff
Great post, PatAnswer. Nice to "meet" you. You are not alone.
I've given lots of thought to the question of "what the heck happened to us?" that we would associate ourselves with an organization whose true workings were so hidden from our view, at least at the beginning. How did they successfully tamp down the critical thinking skills in so many people? Part of the answer, I think, is that their teachings and writings contained what appeared to be superb critical thinking, already done for us. Someone smarter, wiser, more experienced than we in biblical studies had already done the critical thinking for us. All that was left for us to do was follow the bouncing ball, nod our heads and say aaahh, yes, it all makes sense to me now. When we entrust our critical thinking ability to someone else, we surrender something vital to our own well being.
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johniam
Critical thinking is selective. Yes, we're supposed to do it, but as humans, we need to let down our guard at times. That's what families are for. If I have to engage critical thinking every single time I talk to anybody, I'm going to wear down eventually. I can relax around my family. So if twi is/was my spiritual family, then no big deal.
quote: This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I?
Compare Eve's situation to the other time in scripture the devil appeared personally to a human; Jesus being tempted in Matt 4 and Luke 4. Both times something huge was at stake. Eve, and later Adam were deceived; Jesus was not. The "critical thinking" Jesus used was "it is written". Bibliolatry? Mind control? Who can tell?
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WordWolf
{THERE'S one difference between twi experience being a "costly lesson" and "mistakes one can repeat across a lifetime."
We can RELAX around our family and friends. That does not mean we SHUT OFF OUR CRITICAL THINKING around family and friends.
That's the difference between having "wait a minute" moments a few hours after someone says something clever yet
manipulative, and SILENCING ANY DOUBT when someone says something clever yet manipulative. Someone might fool me for
a minute or even a few hours, but let me get in a good night's sleep, and I'll have their clever game figured out.
When I was young and naive, I learned too many lessons about people being clever in many ways and manipulative in all
of them. Now I may RELAX but I don't shut off my critical thinking skills.
I know I'm not the only person here who's been lied to by family or had family ATTEMPT to manipulate them. I know I'm
not the only person here who's had friends lie to them or attempt to manipulate them. When it comes to "spiritual family",
I know I'm not the only person here who's had "spiritual family" lie to them or attempt to manipulate them.
There was a thread recently on how some wayfers had to take to court a member of their "spiritual family" because
he lied to them and manipulated them. It worked because they shut off their critical thinking skills with their
"spiritual family" and got taken for a LOT of money.
"Trust but verify" is a famous saying in many languages, down the centuries. When it comes to family, we can
do that. To shut off critical thinking is to set up self and others for ANOTHER big fall. It's how we all got
taken the first time with twi- and if we can't see that, we set ourselves up for people to do the same thing
to us over and over....in splinter groups, other so-called Christians, outside religious contexts....
Confidence men and snake-oil salesmen LOVE the naive-those who have a criteria for shutting off their
critical thinking.]
[Actually, the SOURCE CITATION Jesus did was "It Is Written." The "critical thinking" Jesus used at the time
was to EVALUATE THE SITUATION. Even when satan ATTEMPTED to quote Scripture to Jesus- AND MISUSE IT because he
MISQUOTED IT- Jesus saw past the MISUSE OF SCRIPTURE, no matter how cleverly done, and evaluated the quote,
the situation, and the rest of Scripture independently.
Eve, on the other hand, "thought" with her lusts. She did NOT use "critical thinking." A cold analysis of
the situation would have told her that her conclusion required her to consider God a liar- which was
inconsistent with everything she knew about Him. Therefore, the one who contradicted God outright was
a liar- and could not be trusted to give a reliable analysis of the situation. However, she heard what
she WANTED to hear- and shut off her "critical thinking."
People who hear a bunch of speeches about how the organization is a loving family and how its leader
loves them so much- and turn off their "critical thinking" in response, are people who join groups
like the earlier days of twi, or Jim Jones' group, or so many other groups founded by liars, cheats,
and confidence men.
How can someone confuse Jesus' careful consideration- and "critical thinking"- for "mind control", or
"bibliolatry" or not even know what it was? The most likely possibility is them misunderstanding what
each term even means-thus making it easy to make mistakes. Other possibilities include understanding them
fully but choosing to blow smoke at the issues by throwing in irrelevant phrases and consideration.]
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cara
That's a great post about the temptations , Mr. Wordwolf - thanks for the thinking.
Pat, i like your name - what's the question?
In the matter of family versus thinking, I could talk to certain TWI friends in the same way that I could to family members, asking questions and trying to figure things out together was fine, no agenda suspected, but asking questions of others was often seen as an attack of some kind, and i learned to keep my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself. The very fact that I felt like that with some people got me to question other things that they said, so not a bad thing in the end.
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johniam
What is the difference in meaning between the words 'family' and 'familiarity'? To borrow terminology from realtors, family is a fixed relationship and familiarity is an adjustable one. Fifty years ago me, my parents and my siblings all lived under the same roof. We were not only family, but we were familiar with each other's comings and goings every day. Now we're all still family, but we're more familiar with others. I think that's healthy.
VP is not my immediate family. I still respect him as father in the word et al but in twi my immediate family was those I saw pretty much every day. Those are the people who helped me the most. Hurt, too.
No, you don't shut off your critical thinking skills but you do naturally relax around those you consider your immediate family more than around anybody else.
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Ham
I dunno. If that were true.. his offspring would regard me as a brother, or a sister..
hasn't really happened here..
they would have asked me what I thought before trying to resurrect gramp's "ministry"..
no, they didn't ask.
sorry. as evil as he was, gramps was the one who opened the door here..
and somehow, da offspring has agreed with it..
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Ham
It's not pigs in the parlor. It's unclean Squirrels in the parlor.
casting them out does not work..
we were invited..
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waysider
"I still respect him as father in the word"
1.) He wasn't your father.
2.) It wasn't "the Word".
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Bramble
It took me a long time before I figured out that 'instafriends' was not how friendships truly develop, and a lot of the big excitement in the early days of my involvement was the instafriend community. But at the time it seemed real...making it seems real for others was pretty much what my wow year was about.
Hubby and I, being the dupes we were, continued to try making it real for others for a decade, even while all the ugliness smashed people left and right and all our work at being friends ended with people fleeing. Eventually it was us in the smasher...After 20 years(more for hubby) we came out of TWI with not even a handful of friends.
I think that there was a developmental component to why so many of us got involved in late adolescence, why critical thinking skills were so easily circumvented. Many of us had not matured developmentally, and that is a time of life when many changes and decisions are made--college, jobs, love relationships, marriages. Life was often an emotional turmoil. I think VPW was in his way a genius, able to recognise this fact. A born con man and manipulator.
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Ham
I would agree. there is not one single "friend" that even attempted to look me up.
I am really tired of trying to chase people down..
can't they try to look me up for a change?
Well, it would be nice.. I'm ok either way..
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waysider
I don't think it's a cognizant skill that one hones and perfects. I think it's more of an instinctive kind of thing that some people have and some people don't. Wierwille had it.
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Ham
Maybe he got away with it, one lifetime after another..
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Ham
a couple of lifetimes, I didn't "get away with it"..
this one,.. I got frigging damned tired of ripping people off..
how many times do you want to do that..
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Human without the bean
Great post PatAnswer. Whenever I think of what I lost to twi I try to gain some perspective by counting the blessings I now have as a result of leaving them. Everything I lost somehow pales in the distance to what I have now. Welcome!
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Broken Arrow
Just repeating what someone already said. I didn't read far enough down before I posted. Sorry.
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bliss
Welcome PatAnswer!
Wow, that was the same exact verse that began the unraveling for me 6 years ago!!!!! 1Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Duh, it's what the Prophets wrote, not what I do with it........(((double slap to forhead))))
That's what happens when you think. You wake up and see.
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geisha779
Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace.
Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something.
When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think.
I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people.
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johniam
quote:
Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace.
I don't think twi "disarmed" me. Yes, there were 'bullies' but they didn't stop anyone from thinking. Same material over and over again? How is that really different from college or the military? I see twi as a greenhouse.
They took me out of the world for 8 years, beginning with my wow year. It was as though God allowed me to push the pause button on my life, get loved, nourished, and renewed in the 'greenhouse', and then go back and try it again. Amazing difference.
quote:
Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something.
When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think.
I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people.
What were you 'threatened' with? They taught us we were born again of incorruptible seed and we were going to be at the gathering together no matter what. They couldn't threaten us with hell like the catholic and protestant churches routinely do. What threat?
There are people in lives, space, and heads in the military, too. But not for EVER. The reason there were/are exceptional people there is because twi was too Christian; they have an exceptional God. There was plenty of room for God to work despite the legalism.
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Ham
"spiritual" homelessness.
Spiritual abandonment.. like being an orphan..
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