Capital punishment

[Twinky]

Johniam on the Zachary Brodeau thread said this:

Some people want to get rid of the death penalty. I'd rather get rid of life imprisonment. If someone has done something so heinous that they need to be imprisoned for life, then what real value is their life at all? Some say that man does not have the right to take the life of another human. But somehow we DO have the right to force taxpayers to keep this scum alive as long as they live. Does this really make us compassionate, sensitive, and civilized, or does it just make us really stupid?

Most prisons amount to higher education for aspiring criminals. They are controlled by 'spirit filled' inmates who create a culture of fear and intimidation. Most people who survive prison say the best thing to do is just keep your mouth shut. Some guy goes to prison for, say, a burglary. Does 5 years during which time he is likely to be 'indoctrinated' into career crime. I hear that 75% of those who are released from prison return there eventually.

What if the worst element of the prison was eliminated? Yes, I mean put to death! Again, if someone has proven themselves to need life imprisonment, what good are they? If the worst of the prisoners were 'deleted' then the people who were in for less than a life term could do some kind of useful work which would help them upon their release. If THOSE prisoners still tried to be the terrorists in the prison, then they, too, could be eliminated. If someone, for whatever reason, cannot stop themselves from sexually assaulting those who can't defend themselves, then they should be put to death. Based on this thread, I would have no problem if Zachary Brodeur was put to death.

This is an interesting topic and perhaps merits some discussion time here. Some people have been involved in prison visiting and may have useful points of view. Others may have been victims of heinous crimes and might have a different point of view.

Do you think there is a case for capital punishment - sometimes? never? always in some circumstances? I put up a poll...but only to get people thinking.

What sort of crimes might merit that - if you agree it ought to happen?

And how does that fit with God's grace towards all?

[soul searcher]

I've always believed in capital punishment for heinous crimes like terrorism and mass murder.

In the case of simple murder I think the circumstances need to be considered. I also believe that the victims' families should have a say in it.

Of course, all of this assumes that the evidence in the case is clear and without plausible doubt.

How does this square with God's grace? Well...going just by what the bible says, it's a no-brainer: God ordered executions (and genocide) more than once. And we were created in God's image (Gen. 1-27).

[Twinky]

True, there are apparent instructions for genocide...but was it always carried out? eg 1 Sam15:3 Amalekites were to be "totally destroyed" - and it appears they were all except for kind Agag - but not too long later, in chapter 30 there were enough Amalekites to raze Ziklag and carry off the inhabitants.

It's also clear that although the tribes were to clear the Promised Land of previous inhabitants - that never happened and there are dire warnings about intermarriage and settling down with the inhabitants.

Thje punishment for adultery was death by stoning...was King David or Bathsheba stoned? No, and their union was blessed. And that's despite David ordering the cover-up murder of the cuckolded husband.

Lots of behaviour in God's eyes is "worthy of death" - does that mean that sentence was carried out? Only rarely, it seems. "Worthy of death" and actual execution are quite different. That's where God's grace and mercy come in.

Again, Saul/St Paul before his conversion was a horrible man who dragged people off for torture for heresy, and execution. Yet through his evil religiously-motivated acts, the new converts were scattered and God worked through that for good, spreading the gospel over all the Mediterranean area.

I've just finished reading The Hiding Place - Corrie Ten Boom's story. It's well reported that she was able to forgive a concentration camp guard who had abused her and her sister. Corrie meets the SS guard During her imprisonment and after her release she continued to pray and work for these very abusers, to effect their restoration and reconciliation.

I used to think that murderers and such like really ought to be executed. TWI really didn't help soften such a hard attitude. In recent years I have mellowed markedly and I really don't know what an appropriate punishment is. So many things go into the mix that makes someone who they are and who they become...and only some of those things are that person's choice or "fault."

[mstar1]

There was quite a bit of capital punishment in the Bible--Jesus and Stephen come immediately to mind, as well as the woman taken in adultery who was about to be stoned---but there was a last minute stay of execution in that case. I suppose if someone were inclined they could extrapolate a good case for grace overriding old testament law in capital cases using that example

I go through phases of whether I believe in it or not....mostly not... I know I dont find any sense of joy, relief, reconciliation or much of anything positive in anyones death, even criminals.

As far as the financial question

DO have the right to force taxpayers to keep this scum alive as long as they live.

If money is the concern, Execution requires a near endless amount of expensive legalities, appeals and requirements that must be fulfilled before someone can be executed.

Execution is actually far more expensive to taxpayers than life in prison by an average of near $500,000

I also think in one sense that life in prison without any hope of parole is more of a punishment than a quick and final end.

Edited June 22, 2011 by mstar1

[Twinky]

I also think in one sense that life in prison without any hope of parole is more of a punishment than a quick and final end.

True too, but what then is to stop a convict, then, from pursuing the ambition to be the baddest of the bad? Even incarcerated criminals deserve protection from the baddest of the bad.

Was it "better" for those convicted at the Nuremburg war trials to be executed straight away, or for the last survivor, Hess, to be imprisoned until he died - aged 93 - in Spandau prison?

There must be information about this: what are crime rates compared by state, in the US? In those states where capital punishment is permitted, is there a higher or lower level of violent crime? (In other words, does capital punishment have a deterrent effect?)

Is the existence of capital punishment a failure of the society in which it sits?

[waysider]

What about cases of wrongful conviction? Death is pretty final.

What about an 18 year old boy who is caught having consensual sex with his 17 year old (ie: underage) girlfriend?

There are just too many variables to make this a black or white kind of issue.

Edited June 23, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

I dunno.

Doesn't capital punishment render judgement that one's existence here, for whatever reason, is useless?

depending on your particular belief..

what if "this" was a death sentence, one lifetime, after another..

maybe that would be a more merciful sentence..

One gigantic shot of Demerol and God knows what..

[waysider]

Maybe we could sentence them to a fate such as Sisyphus endured. He's that Greek God whose punishment was to roll a boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, again and again.

But then, wouldn't that just be a form of vengeance? I thought the Bible quoted God as saying, "Vengeance is mine." And, that leads to the even bigger question: How can a God who is all love be so bent on retaliation?

Edited June 23, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

Then there was Prometheus. Chained to a rock, to have his liver eaten out by ravens, only to have it grow back every day. His crime.. he gave fire back to man..

[waysider]

Then there was Prometheus. Chained to a rock, to have his liver eaten out by ravens, only to have it grow back every day. His crime.. he gave fire back to man..

[soul searcher]

Lots of behaviour in God's eyes is "worthy of death" - does that mean that sentence was carried out? Only rarely, it seems. "Worthy of death" and actual execution are quite different. That's where God's grace and mercy come in.

Maybe. But not in this instance:

While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

Where was God's mercy? The members of the assembly didn't decide on their own to execute the man, God ordered them to.

[mstar1]

For gathering wood????

seems a little harsh to me--I usually let off wood gatherers with a good old fashioned flogging and maybe just a little water boarding or perhaps some branding and fingernail removal but I know Im a softy, am probably off the word and should deal with things in a more biblical way.... <_<

uggg...

If I was an old testament law type of guy Im sure I would lend that a lot of credence but Im not a follower of Moses ( would that be a Mosian?)

I cant think of any examples in the Gospels or throughout the NT where Jesus, the apostles or christians in general were clamoring for the death penalty or even discussed it.

There is a whole heckuva a lot about forgiveness, grace, mercy, praying for your enemies etc however.

First century christians were treated pretty poorly,much worse than someone gathering wood around them, did they ever seek to have any of their persecutors executed with the civil authorities?

[Twinky]

Yes, soulie, but there are a lot of other records where execution was the penalty...and was never carried out. That one seems more of an aberration than the norm. I don't seek to explain it.

mstar, yes, and the capital punishment that could have been meted out to the woman caught in adultery...what did the One righteous one do? Didn't throw the stone...showed compassion and forgiveness. Therefore we have to assume that is what God wants too. He does not seek people's deaths but rather their change of heart. The OT is full of that...God just wanting people to change their minds and return to him, no matter how bad they had been. People as a nation, and people as individuals. He seeks their return in heart to him.

If someone is executed...they have absolutely no possibility of repenting, returning in heart to God. No possibility of ever reflecting on what they've done (no matter how heinous). There are all manner of people alive today who have led bad lifestyles - and repented. Nicky Cruz, for example, a notorious gang leader, violent in the extreme - now leads a huge Christian outreach ministry...because one man, David Wilkerson, was prepared to love him as God loves him. David Wilkerson Nicky Cruz Cruz very carefully doesn't confess to murder in his autobiography...but read his lifestyle...his violence was extreme. He was the kind of man you really would like to lock up and throw away the key forever - if you didn't fry him or hang him or shoot lethal drugs into his arm. Other men have also been converted in prison and had prison ministries that have led others to God.

[mstar1]

Something else that just crossed my mind is that when Stephen was in the act of being murdered his last words were You are going to get yours!, "Lay not this sin to their charge", echoing Jesus words of "Father forgive them" when He was being wrongfully executed.

Paul had also been "consenting" unto Stephens death, and was "breathing out..."slaughter" against the disciples". A real vile SOB

Shouldn't he have been tried for conspiracy to commit murder?

Maybe...he should have been...

but it would probably be a much different world we live in now if he had been convicted and executed at that point

[soul searcher]

I cant think of any examples in the Gospels or throughout the NT where Jesus, the apostles or christians in general were clamoring for the death penalty or even discussed it.

There is a whole heckuva a lot about forgiveness, grace, mercy, praying for your enemies etc however.

They say that God doesn't change, but the God of the OT certainly behaves differently from the God of the NT.

[waysider]

Congratulations. You've just stumbled on one of the peculiarities that helps define Way Theology.Here it is in a nut-shell: According to Way Theology, when a person is physically born, they are a two-fold being...body and soul. (soul being breath-life in way terms) When they become spiritually born-again, they acquire a third component, known as holy spirit (the gift), which is also known as Christ in you. Now, according to this whole concept, people who are only body and soul (as was the case of people in the O.T.) can not understand anything from a spiritual perspective, so, God had to talk to them in terms they could understand.... Here's where it gets tricky. Supposedly, since they couldn't understand spiritual matters, they could not comprehend the concept of a devil, since the devil is supposed to be a spirit being. So, these evil doings of God in the O.T. were really the doings of the devil but had to be explained in terms that could be understood by people with no spiritual perspective. Yeah, I know, it's complicated. But, that's how The Way explains why God appeared to do evil things in the O.T.

edit: I'm not especially interested in a doctrinal discussion of this concept. I'm simply trying to give soul searcher, who was never in TWI, some perspective on how these things are seen within the framework of The Way.

Edited June 24, 2011 by waysider

[Twinky]

It's a good point, Soulie and Waysider, but not for this thread. It's been discussed before and maybe you could resurrect an older thread.

The idea of the "God of the OT" and the "God of the NT" being "different" is explained by other churches well enough without Way theology.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program, mstar, I agree with you. That nasty legalistic b@$tard Saul wouldn't be everyone's favorite guest knocking on the door. When you think about his past, the people he had hauled off to prison, tortured and had executed...and then he says, there is NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus...what guilt must he have overcome? And the people he worked with in the years immediately after his conversion - what forgiveness they must have had! Ananias and his fellowship in Damascus - who themselves rescued Saul/Paul from people who would have killed him! - Barnabas who protected him and introduced him to Christians in Jerusalem...these first Christians who had quite probably had friends and relatives arrested by Saul were the very ones who protected him later.

Paul was legally authorized, though, on his rampages. He had letters of authority to seize these "heretics." Does that make a difference? We don't hold it against a public executioner when he executed a convicted criminal.

Maybe our attitudes to capital punishment reflect our own views on forgiveness?

[waysider]

I'm still hung up on the vengeance thing..... "Vengeance is mine.", saith The Lord....But, capital punishment is, in essence, our way as a society of assuming that responsibility....What is the intended purpose of capital punishment? ... Is it to punish, seek vengeance, deter potential crime, ensure no further crimes will be committed... or what?....How have other similar societies dealt with the issue?

[Ham]

Most prisons amount to higher education for aspiring criminals. They are controlled by 'spirit filled' inmates who create a culture of fear and intimidation. Most people who survive prison say the best thing to do is just keep your mouth shut. Some guy goes to prison for, say, a burglary. Does 5 years during which time he is likely to be 'indoctrinated' into career crime. I hear that 75% of those who are released from prison return there eventually.

What if the worst element of the prison was eliminated? Yes, I mean put to death! Again, if someone has proven themselves to need life imprisonment, what good are they?

Now that I've had a couple of days to think about this..

Who is the "worst" element of the prison? Not the inmates, in my opinion. I'm not minimizing their offences or anything, oh no.

We have a governor (with a small g) here, that (un-gender slap in face implied) seems to think the budget is well more served with funding for prisons than education..

so he is insuring a steady flow of uneducated and unskilled "clients" for his "big business"..

I'm not indicting any particular party here, lest this discussion be moved to soap opera.

what are they going to do with the thousands of veterans returning from the war in Afghanistan?

The "worst element" are the keepers. And no, I don't mean hired security guards..

I can't say capital punishment is inappropriate. But why is it used as a tool to raise the cheers (or jeers) of the populace..

"whoo hoo. we *Got* him.."

So the western world has spent what. How many hundreds of millions of dollars to dispense justice in the case of one man?

Victory?

Another "victim" stepped up to the same plate..

who is his brutish successor? Can't remember the name..

[Ham]

my friend here would say.. it is (was) a problem that seventy five cents wouldn't solve..

I'm sorry. Despite American ingenuity and resolve, I could not rejoice in the death of a soul.

I'm glad it went off as quiet as it did..

[Ham]

so the "successor" is a surgeon, i.e. a "healer".

I hope he doesn't forget the oath he took.. i.e., "do no harm"..

[soul searcher]

Thanks, waysider.

...So, these evil doings of God in the O.T. were really the doings of the devil but had to be explained in terms that could be understood by people with no spiritual perspective.

Is this related to the "idiom of permission"? I participate in other bible discussion forums and nobody has ever heard of this.

[mstar1]

I participate in other bible discussion forums and nobody has ever heard of this.

You are probably not very likely to run into many people that have unless they are ex-way people or otherwise out on the far reaches of nutterville.

Its a fringe belief that EW Bullinger mentioned very briefly in his book Figures of Speech.

TWI picked it up as a method to gloss over and rearrange inconvenient sections of the Bible that did not agree with Way doctrine.

I googled "Idiom of Permission" and every article that I found was written by a former Wayfer.

Edited June 24, 2011 by mstar1

[excathedra]

it's not that i'm "against" capital punishment exactly -- sometimes i think death is the easy way out -- in some ways i would like (of course this means the crime has absolutely been committed by the pieceofcrap no doubt whatsoever) -- i would like them to suffer the way they made their victim(s) suffer -- but of course i don't want to pay for them to hang on for years and years in prison

i guess god will have to figure it out because i sure can't

[mstar1]

i guess god will have to figure it out because i sure can't

I dont know where it is written or the context but I can remember "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord"

which, not being the Lord, sounds to me like it is not my job to dole it out