I agree. It was showboating. Nothing profound or "Godly" about it. However, unlike so many other former leaders, Ralph has come here and offered an apology...don't hold your breath waiting to see that from some of the others.
Call me a Hittite but to me, that's a reasonable response from the Ralph I knew and probably had little to do with impressing anyone or making some guy feel good about himself. Invite someone to your fellowship and he makes fun of you. Go f-k yourself then.
Hey, if he can't take a joke he probably wouldn't like the act anyway.
Ralph's a big guy. I suppose if you wanted to mix it up with him you know going in what to expect.
You don't have to do that in front of McDonalds to do it in front of God. Neither of you guys ever used the f word before, eh? Right.
You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on".
Ralph's apologized for stuff and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. Lord knows I've had to do some apologizing of my own as have some other folks who post here.
Ralph DID start his own splinter group; it was CES, along with John Lynn, Robert Belt and a few others. However, early on he could see it was just a rehash of the 'yester-years'. He said so, and said, "No More"...go home and live life.
I mean really, if God is God Almighty, who are we to think that HE can't reach others without us??? Often I've believed that 'believers' get in God's way!
You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on".
The guy who was with him said Ralph did that to bless him, in other words, Ralph didn't just say stuff like that any time he felt like it. I was at a teaching of his in 1979 when he was trunk leader. He said something word related that made some guy in the audience mad. The guy yelled stuff at Ralph, who responded very politely and encouraged the guy to wait until after the meeting. The guy a few seconds later yelled "God LOVES people!" and Ralph said "that's right God loves people" and went on with his teaching. So the guy shuts up and after the meeting Ralph was stuck talking to the guy, but he didn't tell him to f himself.
As for the smart mouth guy in Detroit, I bet he thought once or twice before the next time he dissed a 'jesus freak'. Yeah, baby! As for whether it's wrong to say that; the word 'swearing' in the bible has a different meaning than it does in modern culture. Today you can be arrested for swearing in public, which DOES mean using certain words, and we have to respect that, but in the word, 'swearing' means to make an oath to God, or in God's name that you don't have any intention of honoring. To swear, or forswear thyself, has more to do with one's integrity than it does the exact speech used. Jesus said let your communication be yea or nay, in other words say what you mean and mean what you say. Ironically, many adults who use so called swear words do so because they really want you to know that they mean what they're saying.
Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.
Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.
I still don't see how your "F-" story, or wanting to know if I've ever used "the f-word", has any relevance to the concept of "fake it 'til you make it". Maybe you could elaborate a bit more.
As for the smart mouth guy in Detroit, I bet he thought once or twice before the next time he dissed a 'jesus freak'. Yeah, baby! As for whether it's wrong to say that; the word 'swearing' in the bible has a different meaning than it does in modern culture. Today you can be arrested for swearing in public, which DOES mean using certain words, and we have to respect that, but in the word, 'swearing' means to make an oath to God, or in God's name that you don't have any intention of honoring. To swear, or forswear thyself, has more to do with one's integrity than it does the exact speech used. Jesus said let your communication be yea or nay, in other words say what you mean and mean what you say. Ironically, many adults who use so called swear words do so because they really want you to know that they mean what they're saying.
Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.
Your response all these years later.....the seeming admiration for this behavior.....coupled with the continued rationalization from scripture for this kind of thing....is actually more offensive and shocking than the initial event. We were in a pretty nasty cult back then. What is the excuse now?
I could make a pretty good case from scripture (I won't) that to even have such an answer like "F off" in one's heart .....much less verbalize it in public in front of a child....is anti or behavior opposed to Christ ...... but, so is the cheer-leading some 30 years later. No surprise though, we were in an anti-Christ cult.
Just because Jesus said...say what you mean, it doesn't follow that he meant whatever is in your heart and comes out of your mouth is good!
Why take the words of the Prince of Peace and twist them to rationalize base behavior? You don't gain anything and it seems you will never comprehend what transforming events can occur when people who are truly persecuted respond in a Godly manner. Some of the most amazing and miraculous conversions which have brought God glory happen when the persecuted respond in a Christ like manner. You should read JESUS FREAKS.....by dc Talk....and learn how a true Jesus Freak responds.
The guy in that Detroit McDonalds was spot on when he said to take the "act" on the road. He was the smart one...he declined an invitation to a cult fellowship......like many of us wish we had done.Him... I have grudging admiration for......
They were at McDonalds and Ralph turned to a guy behind him and asked if the guy wanted to come to fellowship. The guy coldly said, "Why don't you take your act on the road?" Ralph responded loudly with, "Yeah! Why don't you f yourself!" There was a lady with small children a few feet away. Guy turned white as a sheet. Ralph didn't do that just to be a jerk; he did it to bless my friend whose feelings were hurt. Like I said...passionate...not faking it.
[i liked Ralph D at the time, and liked him later.
He didn't do that "just to be a jerk"- but was a jerk when he did it despite that.
Saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right.
Members of NAMBLA speak what's in their hearts-but that doesn't make their words "right."
It means they are genuine when they talk about molesting children.
Again-saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right.
Furthermore, being "passionate" is no guarantee of being genuine OR right.
Every con artist sounds extremely passionate-and he knows he's lying.
David Koresh was passionate-and probably genuine- but he most obviously was wrong.
Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where
small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong? it may not be as wrong as murdering them, but it is wrong.]
Ralph used to post as Ralph D on waydale and I'm pretty sure he posted here by a different name as recently as a few years ago if not since. He no longer believes twi was a good thing. Again, he's not faking it.
[When he was in twi, he thought he was doing the right thing-even when he was being a jerk. After all,
the supposedly most spiritual man in the organization was open about yelling and cursing at people when he
wanted to.
When he realized twi was wrong, he moved away from it. When he realized twi had always been corrupt at the
heart, he moved further away from it.]
Do we have to be faking something to be in twi? Or a spinoff? The times I've faked it have been around outsiders, including my family.
[Hardly.
Any con artist fakes something- most never heard of twi or its spinoffs.
Many people joined twi to try to do what God wanted- and were genuinely tricked. They MEANT to do the
right thing. All accounts are that lcm MEANT to do the right thing- even when he was kicking people
out and cursing them out. He was GENUINE but he was not RIGHT.
We've discussed that sort of thing lots of times. Many of us who post all the time were GENUINE-at least
in all the big ways- when we joined twi.
What we're discussing now is how twi taught many of us to spend time NOT being genuine.
The worst part of that was lying to OURSELVES and DECEIVING OURSELVES.
Until we use BRUTAL self-honesty, anyone who leaves twi is doomed to KEEP lying to themself,
possibly for years or even the rest of their life.]
I realize Ralph is a friend to Greasespot, or at least he gave an interview, but c'mon, telling a guy to flag himself? He didn't care one wit about that guy or the people in that restaurant. And he certainly didn't care about that lady or the little kid. No, he was just trying to impress the Interim Corps guy he was with. Wanting to show he was "cool". Wanting to flaunt his "freedom in Christ" and to show that even though he was ordained he could still use the "f" word in public and for all others to hear.
Yeah, a real, caring, ambassador for God. Yeah, all because he cared about the "feelings" of the Corp guy. I mean, he was more important than anyone in that restaurant because he was "one of God's people", right? So to heck with everyone else so we tell some guy to go flag himself? Really? What a cool guy!
One thing I'll give Ralph credit for is that he could have verily easily started his own splinter group and he had the good sense to stay out of it. He probably would have made more money if he'd started his own thing like so many others did and he would have been worshipped if he'd wanted to go that route.
I agree. It was showboating. Nothing profound or "Godly" about it. However, unlike so many other former leaders, Ralph has come here and offered an apology...don't hold your breath waiting to see that from some of the others.
You don't have to do that in front of McDonalds to do it in front of God. Neither of you guys ever used the f word before, eh? Right.
Call me a Hittite but to me, that's a reasonable response from the Ralph I knew and probably had little to do with impressing anyone or making some guy feel good about himself. Invite someone to your fellowship and he makes fun of you. Go f-k yourself then.
Hey, if he can't take a joke he probably wouldn't like the act anyway.
Ralph's a big guy. I suppose if you wanted to mix it up with him you know going in what to expect.
You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on".
Ralph's apologized for stuff and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. Lord knows I've had to do some apologizing of my own as have some other folks who post here.
The guy who was with him said Ralph did that to bless him, in other words, Ralph didn't just say stuff like that any time he felt like it.
(snip)
[Hey, that guy's just as capable of deceiving himself as anyone else.]
As for the smart mouth guy in Detroit, I bet he thought once or twice before the next time he dissed a 'jesus freak'. Yeah, baby!
[Highly doubtful.
He probably came away thinking that at least SOME Christians are HYPOCRITES and have no
problem being hateful or attacking someone just because they don't like them.]
As for whether it's wrong to say that; the word 'swearing' in the bible has a different meaning than it does in modern culture. Today you can be arrested for swearing in public, which DOES mean using certain words, and we have to respect that, but in the word, 'swearing' means to make an oath to God, or in God's name that you don't have any intention of honoring. To swear, or forswear thyself, has more to do with one's integrity than it does the exact speech used. Jesus said let your communication be yea or nay, in other words say what you mean and mean what you say. Ironically, many adults who use so called swear words do so because they really want you to know that they mean what they're saying.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
["corrupt communication". Words that tear down.
Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves.
It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered
grace to either of them.
This is obvious to many non-Christians if not most, and most non-Christians. Why have you convinced
yourself this was a good thing? Just because it was done by someone you liked?
The man had a high batting average but has never been the Lord Jesus Christ....
Just because Ralph did it doesn't automatically make it right.]
Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.
[Actually, this thread includes the subject of self-deception, so this is right on-topic, accidentally.]
I think that was standard M.O. for any of the so-called "programs". People outside of The Way just call it self delusion.
Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where
small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong?
quote: Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves.
It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered
grace to either of them.
Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.
Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.
You also said:
Ralph didn't do that just to be a jerk; he did it to bless my friend whose feelings were hurt.
Let's put this in perspective, shall we? God didn't give Ralph any sort of "revelation" to do what he did, nor is there any sort of scriptural precedent on which to base this. He simply did something foolish and unbecoming for someone in his position. If you think it "blessed" someone, your sense of values may have become warped. We have all done things that make us wish we could go back in time and have a "do-over". Lord knows, I've had my share. But here's the thing. And it's important. When Ralph saw that what he was involved with was corrupt, he severed his ties with the organization. He has since acknowledged his regrets and offered apologies. Trying to rationalize this incident and give it some sort of "spiritual significance" is a perfect example of how convoluted our ability to think became, my own included. Drawing a parallel to Biblical events is ludicrous at best.
Perhaps this will be known in years to come as "The Incident at McDonald's". I see a Quentin Tarantino style movie, and this as part lll, of a lV part episodic film. Part l will be titled "Unusual Condiments". Instead of lots of blood there will be condiments as a kind of euphemistic visual reference. Mayo, "secret" sauce and possibly fries with it. Lots and lots of fries.
I'm working on the script. Lots of interest so far. A deal is pending.
Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where
small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong?
quote: Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves.
It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered
grace to either of them.
Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.
You are actually comparing what Jesus said to the religious leaders who had been after Him during His entire ministry...... to cursing at a complete stranger in McDonalds because someone didn't like the answer he gave to a question about going to a cult fellowship? What is wrong with you?
What about Jesus laying down His life and purchasing those very same religious leaders? Remember?...to the point of shedding blood for them? They were purchased with a price too......as is everyone who denies Him.
I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
Christian freedom and liberty does not include telling complete strangers to "F themselves" ..... if you don't believe me...look it up and instead of looking for verses to rationalize an already determined mindset....try letting the scriptures speak to you.
Reading your posting is like falling through the Christian looking glass where wrong is right and right is wrong.
Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.
The same tired tripe that has been used by countless egomaniac TWI leadership to justify their lack of control over their tongue.
What we're discussing now is how twi taught many of us to spend time NOT being genuine.
The worst part of that was lying to OURSELVES and DECEIVING OURSELVES.
Until we use BRUTAL self-honesty, anyone who leaves twi is doomed to KEEP lying to themself,
possibly for years or even the rest of their life.][/b]
This. It's amazing talking to innies lately how self-delusional they are. They get into categories and they just have complete made-up fantasies and cliches going on that are far removed from reality - especially regarding their leadership.
What's even more amazing is that the epistle of 1 John - which TWI teaches as "the fellowship epistle" highlights all of this behavior perfectly. When it boils down to it we have people deceiving themselves, about sin, about corrupt practices in their leadership and organizations, and about much of life in general.
I'm no Biblical expert, but to me removing the blinders about all this is how God intends people to live to be in fellowship with Him, to have a relationship with him.
These fake plastic Christians are no more friends of God than they are to each other.
The same tired tripe that has been used by countless egomaniac TWI leadership to justify their lack of control over their tongue.
I know this believer guy who bought a window washing business from a WC graaad about to go on staff. The deal was, the wc guy would retain an interest, get a percentage of the profits and believer guy would also make payments.
Well, believer guy started losing the big accounts (he had an odd personality which contributed to the problem) and was unable to keep up the payments to wc guy.
Situation came to light and beleiver guy was M&A for taking on a debt (and probably also for being odd). WC guy got a good talking to about how it was an ungodly deal. He said he learned a lot. But he was not M&A and is on staff to this day.
Believer guy was devastated, loved being in twi. Was not "allowed" to talk to any of the other believers. His world was coming to an end. He told his Mother, who was never in twi. But she felt bad for him so she wanted to help.
She calls the ordained limb cwoord and asked if there was anything she could do to help and tried to explain how devastated her son was to no longer be velcom at der vey.
He responded by telling her "It's none of you f---ing business lady!" and hung up on her. Nice eh?
All that ettiquette taught yet he wasn't decent man. He thought he was great for being disrespectful to an elderly woman.
All Rolpha DB did was set a bad example when he did that, but nice that he's since apologized for things. He'd probably be embarrassed to know anyone admired him for that incident. It was so long ago and a mistake he probably doesn't want to relive.
BTW- the lc that behaved in such an ungentlemanly manner is now a full time paid RC with twi. Probaly has never occured to him to apologize.
quote: I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
We are as he is, remember? How are we going to be as he is if we don't compare ourselves to him? Geisha, did you know that Jesus had a 'cult awareness program'? It's in Matt. 15. Practically speaking, a 'cult' is any group which the mainstream representatives of that religion feel is misrepresenting their god. The Jews called Jesus a heretic, a deceiver, and even a pervert (Luke 23:2). They were the mainstream. Surely they were the "experts". Today's cult awareness experts fit the profile of the Jews who killed Jesus. Twi at one time fit the profile of Jesus and his followers. What exactly was Jesus' 'cult awareness program'?
Matt.15:14 - Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
He wasn't losing any sleep over these people being blind. Or over them leading other people into blindness. He was too busy doing good and healing those that were oppressed of the devil to care about people who were misrepresenting God. They wouldn't let him alone, though, would they?
I don't know exactly what RD apologized for, but I doubt it was THAT.
quote: I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
We are as he is, remember? How are we going to be as he is if we don't compare ourselves to him? Geisha, did you know that Jesus had a 'cult awareness program'? It's in Matt. 15. Practically speaking, a 'cult' is any group which the mainstream representatives of that religion feel is misrepresenting their god. The Jews called Jesus a heretic, a deceiver, and even a pervert (Luke 23:2). They were the mainstream. Surely they were the "experts". Today's cult awareness experts fit the profile of the Jews who killed Jesus. Twi at one time fit the profile of Jesus and his followers. What exactly was Jesus' 'cult awareness program'?
Matt.15:14 - Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
He wasn't losing any sleep over these people being blind. Or over them leading other people into blindness. He was too busy doing good and healing those that were oppressed of the devil to care about people who were misrepresenting God. They wouldn't let him alone, though, would they?
I don't know exactly what RD apologized for, but I doubt it was THAT.
Comparing ourselves to Him is one thing.....comparing Him to us is another......you seem to have it backward.
Jesus wept over Israel. One of the most poignant verses in the scriptures is "Jesus wept." He gave the Pharisees and the Sadducees every opportunity to be forgiven and set free from the curse of the law.
Here is something maybe you don't know about the religious leaders of the time....they actually KNEW their stuff. They were not slackers in knowledge......the difference between them and TWI is that they were technically correct. If you take a look, Jesus said, do what they say and teach, just not what they live. They had legitimate authority and Jesus recognized it.......He condemned them for going beyond that and adding things.
You say Jesus didn't lose any sleep over them? How about giving His life for them? Do you think there was some enlightened few around that Jesus died for? Even the Apostles were clueless.......read the gospels. Just about everyone turned on Jesus. It was not just the religious leaders. Those crowds praising Him as He rode into Jerusalem? They were the ones screaming for His blood.
At the cross...3 Mary's and John. Not a big crowd.
Did you ever consider why He said leave them alone? Is it because He didn't give a dang and was basically telling them "F you"? Remember, He had the authority to judge them then and there....the Apostles wanted fire to rain down from heaven. Why not if He didn't care? Maybe He was showing them mercy? Giving them time.
You seem to have things pretty twisted and an esoteric way of interpreting the scriptures.......from this you appear to draw very very ugly conclusions about Jesus...this isn't going to make TWI any more legitimate.
Now you are comparing Jesus' ministry to TWI because the mainstream recognizes them as heretical. They are. Scripture recognizes them as heretical. It is just that in TWI we couldn't really see what scripture was saying. We put an odd twist on it too.....and if we didn't really get the odd twist....we could always fake it.
All this twisting and turning and dissing the Son of God almighty to justify as good.....telling someone to "F off"? Bringing Jesus down to the level of some man's momentary base behavior is not comparing ourselves to Him. It is rationalization at His expense. Ultimately Johniam...it is at your own expense.
Hmmm, bit of a side note but who wouldn't want a side of biblical accuracy?
Jesus wasn't accused of being a "pervert" in the sense you might be using it johniam ("and even a pervert") there in Luke, although that word gets used in various bibles and translations. The "actual greek" reads kinda weird in those straight to transliteration versions. Frankly I don't know how anyone can get an English rendering out of the some of the greek stuff, so I confess to being no greek skollar. But if the sense you're after is of a sexual pervert, no, that verse and that accusation - no.
But if you want a double side of sausage with it:
Some translations use "subvert" which may be closer to the meaning - I note that because later in the chapter Pilate actually states what verse 2 means by saying "said to them, you have brought to me this man as turning away the people to rebellion, and behold, I, having examined him before you, have found nothing criminal in this man as to the things of which ye accuse him;"
Course that's one of many translations but all the major ones, the big ones and not a few of the little ones state it like that, give or take, more or less. The "pervert"ing of verse 2 is the political, social and religious concerns of Jesus claiming to be the "son of God" and "King" and in some translations accused of inciting people to not pay their taxes (ooooh, the horror).
Refill on that coffee?....
If this verse has been carted out by ex-Wayfers to elude to the fact that "even" Jesus had the same kinds of accusations made against HIm as VPW and LCM - come on, that's a waste of time, it isn't what it says and any one with even the slightest amount of respect for "biblical accuracy" would find that out, or about the amount of concern as say someone who knocks over a say a can of soda all over the floor and looks down and says wow, that soda went all over dude somebody better clean that up....that amount of concern and no more and I think the obvious would be revealed about that verse.
So enough about what they said in Luke and what it might have meant then......back to the Ralph Saga, and what he meant when he said what he said to those who heard it and what that meant then, and now.....
quote: I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
We are as he is, remember? How are we going to be as he is if we don't compare ourselves to him? Geisha, did you know that Jesus had a 'cult awareness program'? It's in Matt. 15.
Practically speaking, a 'cult' is any group which the mainstream representatives of that religion feel is misrepresenting their god.
That's an unusual definition. Would you mind divulging the source?
The Jews called Jesus a heretic, a deceiver, and even a pervert (Luke 23:2). They were the mainstream. Surely they were the "experts".
Today's cult awareness experts fit the profile of the Jews who killed Jesus.
Really? What a strange analogy. Warning people about the dangers of cults is like trying to kill Jesus? What's the basis for this opinion?
Twi at one time fit the profile of Jesus and his followers.
Well, I know who the "followers" were in TWI, but, who was Jesus' counterpart?
What exactly was Jesus' 'cult awareness program'?
Matt.15:14 - Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
He wasn't losing any sleep over these people being blind. Or over them leading other people into blindness. He was too busy doing good and healing those that were oppressed of the devil to care about people who were misrepresenting God. They wouldn't let him alone, though, would they?
I don't know exactly what RD apologized for, but I doubt it was THAT.
John, you seem to have a keen dislike for anything that might expose what really went on in The Way. Yet, you continue to come here, knowing that exposing TWI's dirty secrets is part of the site's objective. Do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
it seems that Johnathan can't accept that Wierwille was a pervert and a con artist, and tries to imply Jesus was one too, or that Wierwille is Jesus reincarnate and incapable of lying or immorality of any sort. Otherwise, life isn't worth living if TWI is wrong. Plain and simple but pinheaded as Mr. O'Reilly would say. in reference to John.
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waysider
All the "fake it 'til you make it.", "If I act excited, I'll be excited.", "Life is tremendous!" sort of doctrine that was being promoted by The Way during the 1970s is straight out of secular sales t
waysider
I agree. It was showboating. Nothing profound or "Godly" about it. However, unlike so many other former leaders, Ralph has come here and offered an apology...don't hold your breath waiting to see that from some of the others.
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johniam
You don't have to do that in front of McDonalds to do it in front of God. Neither of you guys ever used the f word before, eh? Right.
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waysider
Relevance?
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socks
Call me a Hittite but to me, that's a reasonable response from the Ralph I knew and probably had little to do with impressing anyone or making some guy feel good about himself. Invite someone to your fellowship and he makes fun of you. Go f-k yourself then.
Hey, if he can't take a joke he probably wouldn't like the act anyway.
Ralph's a big guy. I suppose if you wanted to mix it up with him you know going in what to expect.
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Broken Arrow
You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on".
Ralph's apologized for stuff and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. Lord knows I've had to do some apologizing of my own as have some other folks who post here.
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Rejoice
Ralph DID start his own splinter group; it was CES, along with John Lynn, Robert Belt and a few others. However, early on he could see it was just a rehash of the 'yester-years'. He said so, and said, "No More"...go home and live life.
I mean really, if God is God Almighty, who are we to think that HE can't reach others without us??? Often I've believed that 'believers' get in God's way!
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excathedra
ralph's a good guy with a ny mouth fine
but i found here that he is way too sensitive if you don't buy into his line
that's great. he's human, but i don't think he's anything special in the sense of mogdom
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johniam
quote:
You're right. It's wrong to say that in front of anybody and yes, I've said it myself in front of others. It's even wrong to say it when you're by yourself and I've done that too. I was responding to your earlier post where you commented how genuine, real, caring and compassionate Ralph was being when he told some guy to flag himself. I'm saying he was none of those things at that particular point in time. Frankly, I'm not so sure today that even Ralph would consider this action "right-on".
The guy who was with him said Ralph did that to bless him, in other words, Ralph didn't just say stuff like that any time he felt like it. I was at a teaching of his in 1979 when he was trunk leader. He said something word related that made some guy in the audience mad. The guy yelled stuff at Ralph, who responded very politely and encouraged the guy to wait until after the meeting. The guy a few seconds later yelled "God LOVES people!" and Ralph said "that's right God loves people" and went on with his teaching. So the guy shuts up and after the meeting Ralph was stuck talking to the guy, but he didn't tell him to f himself.
As for the smart mouth guy in Detroit, I bet he thought once or twice before the next time he dissed a 'jesus freak'. Yeah, baby! As for whether it's wrong to say that; the word 'swearing' in the bible has a different meaning than it does in modern culture. Today you can be arrested for swearing in public, which DOES mean using certain words, and we have to respect that, but in the word, 'swearing' means to make an oath to God, or in God's name that you don't have any intention of honoring. To swear, or forswear thyself, has more to do with one's integrity than it does the exact speech used. Jesus said let your communication be yea or nay, in other words say what you mean and mean what you say. Ironically, many adults who use so called swear words do so because they really want you to know that they mean what they're saying.
Relevance? The thread is about faking it and socks said those who fake it run the risk of becoming something they are not.
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waysider
I still don't see how your "F-" story, or wanting to know if I've ever used "the f-word", has any relevance to the concept of "fake it 'til you make it". Maybe you could elaborate a bit more.
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geisha779
Your response all these years later.....the seeming admiration for this behavior.....coupled with the continued rationalization from scripture for this kind of thing....is actually more offensive and shocking than the initial event. We were in a pretty nasty cult back then. What is the excuse now?
I could make a pretty good case from scripture (I won't) that to even have such an answer like "F off" in one's heart .....much less verbalize it in public in front of a child....is anti or behavior opposed to Christ ...... but, so is the cheer-leading some 30 years later. No surprise though, we were in an anti-Christ cult.
Just because Jesus said...say what you mean, it doesn't follow that he meant whatever is in your heart and comes out of your mouth is good!
Why take the words of the Prince of Peace and twist them to rationalize base behavior? You don't gain anything and it seems you will never comprehend what transforming events can occur when people who are truly persecuted respond in a Godly manner. Some of the most amazing and miraculous conversions which have brought God glory happen when the persecuted respond in a Christ like manner. You should read JESUS FREAKS.....by dc Talk....and learn how a true Jesus Freak responds.
The guy in that Detroit McDonalds was spot on when he said to take the "act" on the road. He was the smart one...he declined an invitation to a cult fellowship......like many of us wish we had done.Him... I have grudging admiration for......
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WordWolf
[i liked Ralph D at the time, and liked him later.
He didn't do that "just to be a jerk"- but was a jerk when he did it despite that.
Saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right.
Members of NAMBLA speak what's in their hearts-but that doesn't make their words "right."
It means they are genuine when they talk about molesting children.
Again-saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right.
Furthermore, being "passionate" is no guarantee of being genuine OR right.
Every con artist sounds extremely passionate-and he knows he's lying.
David Koresh was passionate-and probably genuine- but he most obviously was wrong.
Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where
small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong? it may not be as wrong as murdering them, but it is wrong.]
[When he was in twi, he thought he was doing the right thing-even when he was being a jerk. After all,
the supposedly most spiritual man in the organization was open about yelling and cursing at people when he
wanted to.
When he realized twi was wrong, he moved away from it. When he realized twi had always been corrupt at the
heart, he moved further away from it.]
[Hardly.
Any con artist fakes something- most never heard of twi or its spinoffs.
Many people joined twi to try to do what God wanted- and were genuinely tricked. They MEANT to do the
right thing. All accounts are that lcm MEANT to do the right thing- even when he was kicking people
out and cursing them out. He was GENUINE but he was not RIGHT.
We've discussed that sort of thing lots of times. Many of us who post all the time were GENUINE-at least
in all the big ways- when we joined twi.
What we're discussing now is how twi taught many of us to spend time NOT being genuine.
The worst part of that was lying to OURSELVES and DECEIVING OURSELVES.
Until we use BRUTAL self-honesty, anyone who leaves twi is doomed to KEEP lying to themself,
possibly for years or even the rest of their life.]
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WordWolf
[Hey, that guy's just as capable of deceiving himself as anyone else.]
[Highly doubtful.
He probably came away thinking that at least SOME Christians are HYPOCRITES and have no
problem being hateful or attacking someone just because they don't like them.]
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
["corrupt communication". Words that tear down.
Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves.
It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered
grace to either of them.
This is obvious to many non-Christians if not most, and most non-Christians. Why have you convinced
yourself this was a good thing? Just because it was done by someone you liked?
The man had a high batting average but has never been the Lord Jesus Christ....
Just because Ralph did it doesn't automatically make it right.]
[Actually, this thread includes the subject of self-deception, so this is right on-topic, accidentally.]
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johniam
quote:
Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where
small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong?
quote: Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves.
It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered
grace to either of them.
Was Jesus ministering grace to the hearers when he told those Jews ye are of your father the devil? How about when he told those in Matt 23 they were like whited sepulchers which outwardly look beautiful but inwardly were full of dead men's bones? Or how about when he told Peter get behind me satan? Once again, your 'one size fits all' moral superiority is a bag with holes.
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waysider
You also said:
Ralph didn't do that just to be a jerk; he did it to bless my friend whose feelings were hurt.
..............................................................................
Let's put this in perspective, shall we? God didn't give Ralph any sort of "revelation" to do what he did, nor is there any sort of scriptural precedent on which to base this. He simply did something foolish and unbecoming for someone in his position. If you think it "blessed" someone, your sense of values may have become warped. We have all done things that make us wish we could go back in time and have a "do-over". Lord knows, I've had my share. But here's the thing. And it's important. When Ralph saw that what he was involved with was corrupt, he severed his ties with the organization. He has since acknowledged his regrets and offered apologies. Trying to rationalize this incident and give it some sort of "spiritual significance" is a perfect example of how convoluted our ability to think became, my own included. Drawing a parallel to Biblical events is ludicrous at best.
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socks
Perhaps this will be known in years to come as "The Incident at McDonald's". I see a Quentin Tarantino style movie, and this as part lll, of a lV part episodic film. Part l will be titled "Unusual Condiments". Instead of lots of blood there will be condiments as a kind of euphemistic visual reference. Mayo, "secret" sauce and possibly fries with it. Lots and lots of fries.
I'm working on the script. Lots of interest so far. A deal is pending.
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geisha779
You are actually comparing what Jesus said to the religious leaders who had been after Him during His entire ministry...... to cursing at a complete stranger in McDonalds because someone didn't like the answer he gave to a question about going to a cult fellowship? What is wrong with you?
What about Jesus laying down His life and purchasing those very same religious leaders? Remember?...to the point of shedding blood for them? They were purchased with a price too......as is everyone who denies Him.
I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
Christian freedom and liberty does not include telling complete strangers to "F themselves" ..... if you don't believe me...look it up and instead of looking for verses to rationalize an already determined mindset....try letting the scriptures speak to you.
Reading your posting is like falling through the Christian looking glass where wrong is right and right is wrong.
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chockfull
The same tired tripe that has been used by countless egomaniac TWI leadership to justify their lack of control over their tongue.
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chockfull
This. It's amazing talking to innies lately how self-delusional they are. They get into categories and they just have complete made-up fantasies and cliches going on that are far removed from reality - especially regarding their leadership.
What's even more amazing is that the epistle of 1 John - which TWI teaches as "the fellowship epistle" highlights all of this behavior perfectly. When it boils down to it we have people deceiving themselves, about sin, about corrupt practices in their leadership and organizations, and about much of life in general.
I'm no Biblical expert, but to me removing the blinders about all this is how God intends people to live to be in fellowship with Him, to have a relationship with him.
These fake plastic Christians are no more friends of God than they are to each other.
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100% Free
I know this believer guy who bought a window washing business from a WC graaad about to go on staff. The deal was, the wc guy would retain an interest, get a percentage of the profits and believer guy would also make payments.
Well, believer guy started losing the big accounts (he had an odd personality which contributed to the problem) and was unable to keep up the payments to wc guy.
Situation came to light and beleiver guy was M&A for taking on a debt (and probably also for being odd). WC guy got a good talking to about how it was an ungodly deal. He said he learned a lot. But he was not M&A and is on staff to this day.
Believer guy was devastated, loved being in twi. Was not "allowed" to talk to any of the other believers. His world was coming to an end. He told his Mother, who was never in twi. But she felt bad for him so she wanted to help.
She calls the ordained limb cwoord and asked if there was anything she could do to help and tried to explain how devastated her son was to no longer be velcom at der vey.
He responded by telling her "It's none of you f---ing business lady!" and hung up on her. Nice eh?
All that ettiquette taught yet he wasn't decent man. He thought he was great for being disrespectful to an elderly woman.
All Rolpha DB did was set a bad example when he did that, but nice that he's since apologized for things. He'd probably be embarrassed to know anyone admired him for that incident. It was so long ago and a mistake he probably doesn't want to relive.
BTW- the lc that behaved in such an ungentlemanly manner is now a full time paid RC with twi. Probaly has never occured to him to apologize.
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johniam
quote: I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch.
We are as he is, remember? How are we going to be as he is if we don't compare ourselves to him? Geisha, did you know that Jesus had a 'cult awareness program'? It's in Matt. 15. Practically speaking, a 'cult' is any group which the mainstream representatives of that religion feel is misrepresenting their god. The Jews called Jesus a heretic, a deceiver, and even a pervert (Luke 23:2). They were the mainstream. Surely they were the "experts". Today's cult awareness experts fit the profile of the Jews who killed Jesus. Twi at one time fit the profile of Jesus and his followers. What exactly was Jesus' 'cult awareness program'?
Matt.15:14 - Let them alone; they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
He wasn't losing any sleep over these people being blind. Or over them leading other people into blindness. He was too busy doing good and healing those that were oppressed of the devil to care about people who were misrepresenting God. They wouldn't let him alone, though, would they?
I don't know exactly what RD apologized for, but I doubt it was THAT.
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geisha779
Comparing ourselves to Him is one thing.....comparing Him to us is another......you seem to have it backward.
Jesus wept over Israel. One of the most poignant verses in the scriptures is "Jesus wept." He gave the Pharisees and the Sadducees every opportunity to be forgiven and set free from the curse of the law.
Here is something maybe you don't know about the religious leaders of the time....they actually KNEW their stuff. They were not slackers in knowledge......the difference between them and TWI is that they were technically correct. If you take a look, Jesus said, do what they say and teach, just not what they live. They had legitimate authority and Jesus recognized it.......He condemned them for going beyond that and adding things.
You say Jesus didn't lose any sleep over them? How about giving His life for them? Do you think there was some enlightened few around that Jesus died for? Even the Apostles were clueless.......read the gospels. Just about everyone turned on Jesus. It was not just the religious leaders. Those crowds praising Him as He rode into Jerusalem? They were the ones screaming for His blood.
At the cross...3 Mary's and John. Not a big crowd.
Did you ever consider why He said leave them alone? Is it because He didn't give a dang and was basically telling them "F you"? Remember, He had the authority to judge them then and there....the Apostles wanted fire to rain down from heaven. Why not if He didn't care? Maybe He was showing them mercy? Giving them time.
You seem to have things pretty twisted and an esoteric way of interpreting the scriptures.......from this you appear to draw very very ugly conclusions about Jesus...this isn't going to make TWI any more legitimate.
Now you are comparing Jesus' ministry to TWI because the mainstream recognizes them as heretical. They are. Scripture recognizes them as heretical. It is just that in TWI we couldn't really see what scripture was saying. We put an odd twist on it too.....and if we didn't really get the odd twist....we could always fake it.
All this twisting and turning and dissing the Son of God almighty to justify as good.....telling someone to "F off"? Bringing Jesus down to the level of some man's momentary base behavior is not comparing ourselves to Him. It is rationalization at His expense. Ultimately Johniam...it is at your own expense.
Well done.
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socks
Hmmm, bit of a side note but who wouldn't want a side of biblical accuracy?
Jesus wasn't accused of being a "pervert" in the sense you might be using it johniam ("and even a pervert") there in Luke, although that word gets used in various bibles and translations. The "actual greek" reads kinda weird in those straight to transliteration versions. Frankly I don't know how anyone can get an English rendering out of the some of the greek stuff, so I confess to being no greek skollar. But if the sense you're after is of a sexual pervert, no, that verse and that accusation - no.
But if you want a double side of sausage with it:
Some translations use "subvert" which may be closer to the meaning - I note that because later in the chapter Pilate actually states what verse 2 means by saying "said to them, you have brought to me this man as turning away the people to rebellion, and behold, I, having examined him before you, have found nothing criminal in this man as to the things of which ye accuse him;"
Course that's one of many translations but all the major ones, the big ones and not a few of the little ones state it like that, give or take, more or less. The "pervert"ing of verse 2 is the political, social and religious concerns of Jesus claiming to be the "son of God" and "King" and in some translations accused of inciting people to not pay their taxes (ooooh, the horror).
Refill on that coffee?....
If this verse has been carted out by ex-Wayfers to elude to the fact that "even" Jesus had the same kinds of accusations made against HIm as VPW and LCM - come on, that's a waste of time, it isn't what it says and any one with even the slightest amount of respect for "biblical accuracy" would find that out, or about the amount of concern as say someone who knocks over a say a can of soda all over the floor and looks down and says wow, that soda went all over dude somebody better clean that up....that amount of concern and no more and I think the obvious would be revealed about that verse.
So enough about what they said in Luke and what it might have meant then......back to the Ralph Saga, and what he meant when he said what he said to those who heard it and what that meant then, and now.....
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waysider
John, you seem to have a keen dislike for anything that might expose what really went on in The Way. Yet, you continue to come here, knowing that exposing TWI's dirty secrets is part of the site's objective. Do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
it seems that Johnathan can't accept that Wierwille was a pervert and a con artist, and tries to imply Jesus was one too, or that Wierwille is Jesus reincarnate and incapable of lying or immorality of any sort. Otherwise, life isn't worth living if TWI is wrong. Plain and simple but pinheaded as Mr. O'Reilly would say.
in reference to John.
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