What is this about JL kicking babies? I remember him punching a teddy bear, but nothing about kicking babies.
As for the 'believing in reverse', in 1984/85 I used to get the tape of the month, and once it was Walter Cummins. Long teaching. He said there was a difference between what he called 'natural fear' which was good, and destructive fear, which was bad. The destructive fear was what got people bad results, but the natural fear included, let's say, you're driving while tired and you start to nod off and before your car leaves its lane you wake up and BAM you have a surge of adrenaline that wakes you up even stronger. That was an example of a good kind of fear per WC. That was back before VP died.
I think a lot of people knew that pfal despite its 34 hours still left a lot of unfilled in blanks about stuff like this. Those people just navigated their way through it without letting it bother them. The worst stories I heard in twi had people die because they weren't "believing", but it didn't take much to extend that into people dying because their lives were "contaminated" (the plane crash that Donna M was yelling about).
It is curious why people would still turn to these ex-twi "leaders" for spiritual guidance or learning. I don't understand the motivation.
They were in the same cult we all were......they made the same bad decisions we did in propping up VP and company. It was the doctrine and practice of TWI that allowed for such systemic abuses....and most of these ex "leaders" were involved a very long time. They were not the swiftest to catch on. Where do their qualifications come from? Not a healthy place.
Many of them got involved as young adults...had their lives shaped by their twi experiences.....and probably need some sound guidance for themselves.
Why are they trying to lead people?
VP and Martindale's tutelage was not a healthy way to learn compassion, basic coping skills, or assimilation. Right? If you jump from one group to the another made up of the same pool of people....without stepping away from the cult mentally.....how is that good?
It was TWI that taught us to distrust other groups of people....other teachers.....other ideas. If we keep coming back to these guys because we don't trust or are not comfortable enough with others...we have not really broken free.
I think people like JAL perpetuate and take advantage of that.
I go with the PBPGIFWMY (Please be patient, God isn't finished with me yet) concept. I am thankful for anyone who is continuing to walk with the Lord because I know He is working from the inside out to get us all more like Jesus Christ, the one and only role model worth comparing ourselves to. I remain so humbled that He continues to wash away more and more of my sins and bring me closer to him. And the longer I remain on this path the less room there is for criticizing. I with John Lynn (and so many others also identified in this thread) the best in their walk with the Lord.
In my opinion when people are learning to walk with the Lord, He convicts and shows them what is right. Once the Holy Spirit shows you something it's a rock in your thoughts. Nothing can shake that. Additionally the basic Acts 17:11 comes to mind, "These [folks of Berea] were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so."
Each of us is responsible before the Lord to verify what we believe by the scriptures, which plainly teach what things are "so," and the Holy Spirit is a guide for each of us.
The worst stories I heard in twi had people die because they weren't "believing", but it didn't take much to extend that into people dying because their lives were "contaminated" (the plane crash that Donna M was yelling about).
She's a great one to be talking about having their life "contamintated". Look at these people's home lives. Marriages in ruins, kids not wanting anything to do with them, strange "close friend" girl relationships, selling their soul to positions of power. There's a verse that says "study to be quiet and do your own business". I think these people should shut up and spend their efforts fixing their own miserable lives rather than sweeping them under the carpet, setting themselves up to be some spiritual "great one", and criticizing and condemning others.
Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever? (Not to stir up controversy over Biblical interpretation of end times). Do these people really think they are fooling God? Or are they just continually lying to themselves? Who would want to wake up and look in the mirror knowing you were doing that?
Same thing with JL. Dude, you have 2 marriages now in your wake, as well as 2 ministries. All FAIL. Don't you think rather than adopting a Charlie Sheen "winning" public front and starting another ministry you ought to get real and give it a rest? Why wouldn't he? The only reason I can think of is he loves to be in the limelight. He loves the attention, and couldn't stomach doing some profession without it.
Don't you think rather than adopting a Charlie Sheen "winning" public front and starting another ministry you ought to get real and give it a rest? Why wouldn't he? The only reason I can think of is he loves to be in the limelight. He loves the attention, and couldn't stomach doing some profession without it.
Or he doesn't relish the idea of having to go out into the world and find a real job like the rest of us.
Or he doesn't relish the idea of having to go out into the world and find a real job like the rest of us.
SoCrates
Did someone say he had a job in something like route sales stocking magazine racks or something like that? Sometimes that's the problem - the qualifications to do something else would require them to take too much of not only a cut in pay but a cut in ego due to perceived position in society or something.
Did someone say he had a job in something like route sales stocking magazine racks or something like that? Sometimes that's the problem - the qualifications to do something else would require them to take too much of not only a cut in pay but a cut in ego due to perceived position in society or something.
Hey, I work for myself doing something similar ....along with many other merchandising and marketing jobs.....sub-contracting work and being self-employed offers me a great deal of freedom to do other things. I don't think it is such a bad way to earn a living! I could do many things with my degrees...but, I like the flexibility.
Does that mean my position is society in problematic? Of course, I am not trying to start up yet another off-shoot. I am just trying to live a quasi decent life.
When it gets to the place that it is an off-shoot to an off-shoot......is there another term for it?
As far as not judging JAL and his supposed walk with the Lord.....I already did something similar and I landed in TWI swallowing great big handfuls of garbage for years. I really don't think God wants us to ignore all those warnings in scripture so we can fall prey to any wolf in a sheep costume. If that were the case, I could never judge between the Benny Hinns and the Billy Grahams of the world. Any yahoo with a bible can try to teach it but, not everyone who mentions the name Jesus actually walks with Him. I think I read that somewhere?
Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever?
Yes, I do.
1 Cor. 15:4,5 - and that he was buried and that he rose again according to the scriptures; and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.
This was after the resurrection but well before Pentecost. Matthias hadn't been selected yet. Judas Iscariot was there. Jesus, in his resurrected body, had forgiven Judas. I think we should all be thankful that God is more forgiving than we are.
I've been casually following this thread and... This may seem like a snotty question but I've always wondered.. why was it Jesus' resurrected body still had the hole in the side where he got the spear? You know.. where Thomas thrust his hand? And the nail prints? Some body. Hmmph!
Hey, I work for myself doing something similar ....along with many other merchandising and marketing jobs.....sub-contracting work and being self-employed offers me a great deal of freedom to do other things. I don't think it is such a bad way to earn a living! I could do many things with my degrees...but, I like the flexibility.
Does that mean my position is society in problematic? Of course, I am not trying to start up yet another off-shoot. I am just trying to live a quasi decent life.
Of course there is nothing wrong with that chosen profession. I'm just saying something is driving the guy to not be satisfied with it.
When it gets to the place that it is an off-shoot to an off-shoot......is there another term for it?
As far as not judging JAL and his supposed walk with the Lord.....I already did something similar and I landed in TWI swallowing great big handfuls of garbage for years. I really don't think God wants us to ignore all those warnings in scripture so we can fall prey to any wolf in a sheep costume. If that were the case, I could never judge between the Benny Hinns and the Billy Grahams of the world. Any yahoo with a bible can try to teach it but, not everyone who mentions the name Jesus actually walks with Him. I think I read that somewhere?
To each his or her own....I choose to judge.
I'm not judging the guy, but Jesus did teach us that you know people by their fruit. I find it ironic that so many of these top off-shoots or cult leaders when you look at their home lives and the fruit there it is pretty rotten.
quote:
Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever?
Yes, I do.
1 Cor. 15:4,5 - and that he was buried and that he rose again according to the scriptures; and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.
This was after the resurrection but well before Pentecost. Matthias hadn't been selected yet. Judas Iscariot was there. Jesus, in his resurrected body, had forgiven Judas. I think we should all be thankful that God is more forgiving than we are.
I'm missing your point here. I Cor. 15:4,5 doesn't record Jesus words at all. So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
In all your attempts at exact TWI "harmony of the gospel" type timelines, ascribing words to Jesus that are not recorded seems to be quite a leap of logic.
I'm missing your point here. I Cor. 15:4,5 doesn't record Jesus words at all. So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
In all your attempts at exact TWI "harmony of the gospel" type timelines, ascribing words to Jesus that are not recorded seems to be quite a leap of logic.
while ignoring the clear scripture where Jesus actually did speak specifically about Judas.....
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
It is curious why people would still turn to these ex-twi "leaders" for spiritual guidance or learning.
To answer your question, they believe that VP taught the "rightly divided Word" and that the ensuing Board of Trustees messed everything up. The offshoots see themselves as keeping the "Truth" alive the way VP intended it. They didn't leave TWI because they were disappointed with what was taught. They still see VP as the MOGFOT.
To answer your question, they believe that VP taught the "rightly divided Word" and that the ensuing Board of Trustees messed everything up. The offshoots see themselves as keeping the "Truth" alive the way VP intended it. They didn't leave TWI because they were disappointed with what was taught. They still see VP as the MOGFOT.
They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.
quote: So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
He said nothing per that verse; just the simple fact that Judas was still there proves that Jesus had forgiven him and Judas would have SIT on the day of Pentecost with the others if he hadn't killed himself.
quote: So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
He said nothing per that verse; just the simple fact that Judas was still there proves that Jesus had forgiven him and Judas would have SIT on the day of Pentecost with the others if he hadn't killed himself.
Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. You are reading into scripture what you want to believe and ignoring the clear scripture which tells you the opposite.
I have to wonder why it was so important in TWI that we believed things like Judas being forgiven? That kind of teaching stems from the cheap grace we embraced and instead of magnifying God's forgiveness this teaching diminishes it in many ways.
BTW....Judas killed himself. That speaks of unrelenting despair ...it doesn't illustrate God's forgiveness.
What would be the point of reading into the scriptures what we want to believe? Same with the law of believing.....we wanted it to be that easy.
Why didn't J.L. include the part where he pushed the counterfeit for years? And if the counterfeit is of the devil as
he proclaims, then who was he serving for 20+ years as he passed the counterfeits? By his own reasoning he was serving the devil.
JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.
They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.
Most of them, if not all, still embrace this as truth. That is, with the exception of those that have completely started a new thing. These are just my own observations, I haven't researched this or anything.
Although we mostly didnt agree, I always found your posts to be thoughtful, incisive and well thought through and gave me plenty to think about. I miss 'em. We'd love to have you as an addition to the community
That goes for all the rest of you too.
Hope you are well
OK --thanks for your patience everyone, sorry for the interrupt---- back to JL, Jesus Christ, The devil, the bible, Judas, $13 bills and whatever else is happening here
quote: This may seem like a snotty question but I've always wondered.. why was it Jesus' resurrected body still had the hole in the side where he got the spear? You know.. where Thomas thrust his hand? And the nail prints? Some body. Hmmph!
If Jesus could change his form so that he wasn't recognizable to the two on the road to Emmaeus, then instantly disappear and be back with the disciples behind closed doors seven miles away, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for him to again change his form to display wounds he endured on the tree. Digital technology. Indeed, some body! You don't want one of those?
quote: Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born.
If Jesus didn't forgive Judas, then why was Judas there right to the end? Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. What do you think would have happened if Jesus would have stood up during the last supper and said, "Hey, guys! I hate to tell you this, but Judas Iscariot here, is planning to betray me. He's going to take 30 pieces of silver from the high priest for showing them how they can arrest me. What's up, Judas?" What do you think would have happened?
I can just see Peter saying "Damn you, Judas, I KNEW you were screwy! C'mon guys, let's rearrange his face". Nothing was stopping Jesus from doing that. He apparently also knew that Judas would kill himself. He gave Judas every chance to cancel his plans to betray him; he also gave Judas every chance to not kill himself.
Just a quick question, Geisha. If it's OK for Jesus to say of Judas, a grown adult, it would have been better if he had never been born, then why isn't it OK for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to do the same?
quote: JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.
Similarities between JL and Paul. Both were serving God as best as they knew. Both changed their minds about certain things. Paul didn't start his ministry until 14 years after his conversion. Paul spoke to a different audience as well (Gentiles instead of Jews). JL changed his mind about the law of believing in what? 1988? I'm sure Paul liked the cheering of the crowd, too. This analogy is probably a 50% match, but still relevant IMO.
quote: They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.
JL made a very clear distinction on the video between what is true about believing and what is false, yet you stubbornly put it all in the same box of "law of believing". At least someone who is in denial doesn't have their head buried in the sand.
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johniam
Very interesting. OK, he's condescending, he's a 13 dollar bill, he's a wanna be cult leader...nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message. Haven't had any dealings with his group. It was go
geisha779
I think you are right. It is really good that he is coming to these things that have so hurt us....but, maybe, he should just stop trying to teach each realization he is coming to in his own life. May
waysider
I'm not sure where to begin to comment on this. :o
waysider
:P
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Broken Arrow
Nevermind.
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pawtucket
So was it the women's believing for red drapes, or did VP get caught in a brothel and made that story up?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
but of course, it was in Calgary, Alberta. Wierwille knew it was a red light district, too bad Leonard didn't get revelation about VPW's true nature
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johniam
What is this about JL kicking babies? I remember him punching a teddy bear, but nothing about kicking babies.
As for the 'believing in reverse', in 1984/85 I used to get the tape of the month, and once it was Walter Cummins. Long teaching. He said there was a difference between what he called 'natural fear' which was good, and destructive fear, which was bad. The destructive fear was what got people bad results, but the natural fear included, let's say, you're driving while tired and you start to nod off and before your car leaves its lane you wake up and BAM you have a surge of adrenaline that wakes you up even stronger. That was an example of a good kind of fear per WC. That was back before VP died.
I think a lot of people knew that pfal despite its 34 hours still left a lot of unfilled in blanks about stuff like this. Those people just navigated their way through it without letting it bother them. The worst stories I heard in twi had people die because they weren't "believing", but it didn't take much to extend that into people dying because their lives were "contaminated" (the plane crash that Donna M was yelling about).
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geisha779
It is curious why people would still turn to these ex-twi "leaders" for spiritual guidance or learning. I don't understand the motivation.
They were in the same cult we all were......they made the same bad decisions we did in propping up VP and company. It was the doctrine and practice of TWI that allowed for such systemic abuses....and most of these ex "leaders" were involved a very long time. They were not the swiftest to catch on. Where do their qualifications come from? Not a healthy place.
Many of them got involved as young adults...had their lives shaped by their twi experiences.....and probably need some sound guidance for themselves.
Why are they trying to lead people?
VP and Martindale's tutelage was not a healthy way to learn compassion, basic coping skills, or assimilation. Right? If you jump from one group to the another made up of the same pool of people....without stepping away from the cult mentally.....how is that good?
It was TWI that taught us to distrust other groups of people....other teachers.....other ideas. If we keep coming back to these guys because we don't trust or are not comfortable enough with others...we have not really broken free.
I think people like JAL perpetuate and take advantage of that.
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Kit Sober
I go with the PBPGIFWMY (Please be patient, God isn't finished with me yet) concept. I am thankful for anyone who is continuing to walk with the Lord because I know He is working from the inside out to get us all more like Jesus Christ, the one and only role model worth comparing ourselves to. I remain so humbled that He continues to wash away more and more of my sins and bring me closer to him. And the longer I remain on this path the less room there is for criticizing. I with John Lynn (and so many others also identified in this thread) the best in their walk with the Lord.
In my opinion when people are learning to walk with the Lord, He convicts and shows them what is right. Once the Holy Spirit shows you something it's a rock in your thoughts. Nothing can shake that. Additionally the basic Acts 17:11 comes to mind, "These [folks of Berea] were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so."
Each of us is responsible before the Lord to verify what we believe by the scriptures, which plainly teach what things are "so," and the Holy Spirit is a guide for each of us.
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chockfull
She's a great one to be talking about having their life "contamintated". Look at these people's home lives. Marriages in ruins, kids not wanting anything to do with them, strange "close friend" girl relationships, selling their soul to positions of power. There's a verse that says "study to be quiet and do your own business". I think these people should shut up and spend their efforts fixing their own miserable lives rather than sweeping them under the carpet, setting themselves up to be some spiritual "great one", and criticizing and condemning others.
Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever? (Not to stir up controversy over Biblical interpretation of end times). Do these people really think they are fooling God? Or are they just continually lying to themselves? Who would want to wake up and look in the mirror knowing you were doing that?
Same thing with JL. Dude, you have 2 marriages now in your wake, as well as 2 ministries. All FAIL. Don't you think rather than adopting a Charlie Sheen "winning" public front and starting another ministry you ought to get real and give it a rest? Why wouldn't he? The only reason I can think of is he loves to be in the limelight. He loves the attention, and couldn't stomach doing some profession without it.
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So_crates
Or he doesn't relish the idea of having to go out into the world and find a real job like the rest of us.
SoCrates
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chockfull
Did someone say he had a job in something like route sales stocking magazine racks or something like that? Sometimes that's the problem - the qualifications to do something else would require them to take too much of not only a cut in pay but a cut in ego due to perceived position in society or something.
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geisha779
Hey, I work for myself doing something similar ....along with many other merchandising and marketing jobs.....sub-contracting work and being self-employed offers me a great deal of freedom to do other things. I don't think it is such a bad way to earn a living! I could do many things with my degrees...but, I like the flexibility.
Does that mean my position is society in problematic? Of course, I am not trying to start up yet another off-shoot. I am just trying to live a quasi decent life.
When it gets to the place that it is an off-shoot to an off-shoot......is there another term for it?
As far as not judging JAL and his supposed walk with the Lord.....I already did something similar and I landed in TWI swallowing great big handfuls of garbage for years. I really don't think God wants us to ignore all those warnings in scripture so we can fall prey to any wolf in a sheep costume. If that were the case, I could never judge between the Benny Hinns and the Billy Grahams of the world. Any yahoo with a bible can try to teach it but, not everyone who mentions the name Jesus actually walks with Him. I think I read that somewhere?
To each his or her own....I choose to judge.
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johniam
quote:
Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever?
Yes, I do.
1 Cor. 15:4,5 - and that he was buried and that he rose again according to the scriptures; and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.
This was after the resurrection but well before Pentecost. Matthias hadn't been selected yet. Judas Iscariot was there. Jesus, in his resurrected body, had forgiven Judas. I think we should all be thankful that God is more forgiving than we are.
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Sudo
I've been casually following this thread and... This may seem like a snotty question but I've always wondered.. why was it Jesus' resurrected body still had the hole in the side where he got the spear? You know.. where Thomas thrust his hand? And the nail prints? Some body. Hmmph!
sudo
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chockfull
Of course there is nothing wrong with that chosen profession. I'm just saying something is driving the guy to not be satisfied with it.
I'm not judging the guy, but Jesus did teach us that you know people by their fruit. I find it ironic that so many of these top off-shoots or cult leaders when you look at their home lives and the fruit there it is pretty rotten.
I'm missing your point here. I Cor. 15:4,5 doesn't record Jesus words at all. So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
In all your attempts at exact TWI "harmony of the gospel" type timelines, ascribing words to Jesus that are not recorded seems to be quite a leap of logic.
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geisha779
while ignoring the clear scripture where Jesus actually did speak specifically about Judas.....
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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Broken Arrow
To answer your question, they believe that VP taught the "rightly divided Word" and that the ensuing Board of Trustees messed everything up. The offshoots see themselves as keeping the "Truth" alive the way VP intended it. They didn't leave TWI because they were disappointed with what was taught. They still see VP as the MOGFOT.
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waysider
They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.
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johniam
quote: So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there?
He said nothing per that verse; just the simple fact that Judas was still there proves that Jesus had forgiven him and Judas would have SIT on the day of Pentecost with the others if he hadn't killed himself.
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Goey
For decades, J.L. willingly and enthusiastically passed out the very counterfeits that he now "teaches" against.
Why didn't J.L. include the part where he pushed the counterfeit for years? And if the counterfeit is of the devil as
he proclaims, then who was he serving for 20+ years as he passed the counterfeits? By his own reasoning he was serving the devil.
Why would anyone give any credence to anything J.L says, one way or the other? It's sad to think that he has any kind of following.
As a "spiritual weakling" I was duped in/by TWI for about 4 years and then realized that many of so-called "spiritual laws" were little
more than scripture twisting based upon a human created and flawed set of "keys to research", selectively used by a self-proclaimed
man-of-God and his obsequious sycophants.
J.L. on the other hand, as a trained "spiritual leader" was duped for 20+ years as he promoted these bogus "immutable spiritual laws" that
he now exposes as counterfeits. This speaks loudly as to about J.L.'s and other "leaders" historical ability to discern truth from error & good
from evil. The collective records are less than exemplary.
Some would have us forgive and forget... ignore the past and simply look at the current message, implying ... if not outright saying that not to
do so is "judgmental" (as if that is a bad thing). This attitude ignores the likelihood that there may be wolves among the flock and to call a
wolf a wolf is somehow wrong ?
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geisha779
Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. You are reading into scripture what you want to believe and ignoring the clear scripture which tells you the opposite.
I have to wonder why it was so important in TWI that we believed things like Judas being forgiven? That kind of teaching stems from the cheap grace we embraced and instead of magnifying God's forgiveness this teaching diminishes it in many ways.
BTW....Judas killed himself. That speaks of unrelenting despair ...it doesn't illustrate God's forgiveness.
What would be the point of reading into the scriptures what we want to believe? Same with the law of believing.....we wanted it to be that easy.
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Broken Arrow
JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.
Most of them, if not all, still embrace this as truth. That is, with the exception of those that have completely started a new thing. These are just my own observations, I haven't researched this or anything.
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mstar1
Goey---Good to see you! Its been much too long and I hope that you are doing well.
I hate to interrupt this thread but this is a rare occurrence....a feel like killing the fatted calf!
You of course have an invitation to the new politics forum thats now at
http://www.bluzecentral.org/politics/index.php
Although we mostly didnt agree, I always found your posts to be thoughtful, incisive and well thought through and gave me plenty to think about. I miss 'em. We'd love to have you as an addition to the community
That goes for all the rest of you too.
Hope you are well
OK --thanks for your patience everyone, sorry for the interrupt---- back to JL, Jesus Christ, The devil, the bible, Judas, $13 bills and whatever else is happening here
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johniam
quote: This may seem like a snotty question but I've always wondered.. why was it Jesus' resurrected body still had the hole in the side where he got the spear? You know.. where Thomas thrust his hand? And the nail prints? Some body. Hmmph!
If Jesus could change his form so that he wasn't recognizable to the two on the road to Emmaeus, then instantly disappear and be back with the disciples behind closed doors seven miles away, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for him to again change his form to display wounds he endured on the tree. Digital technology. Indeed, some body! You don't want one of those?
quote: Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born.
If Jesus didn't forgive Judas, then why was Judas there right to the end? Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. What do you think would have happened if Jesus would have stood up during the last supper and said, "Hey, guys! I hate to tell you this, but Judas Iscariot here, is planning to betray me. He's going to take 30 pieces of silver from the high priest for showing them how they can arrest me. What's up, Judas?" What do you think would have happened?
I can just see Peter saying "Damn you, Judas, I KNEW you were screwy! C'mon guys, let's rearrange his face". Nothing was stopping Jesus from doing that. He apparently also knew that Judas would kill himself. He gave Judas every chance to cancel his plans to betray him; he also gave Judas every chance to not kill himself.
Just a quick question, Geisha. If it's OK for Jesus to say of Judas, a grown adult, it would have been better if he had never been born, then why isn't it OK for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to do the same?
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johniam
quote: JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.
Similarities between JL and Paul. Both were serving God as best as they knew. Both changed their minds about certain things. Paul didn't start his ministry until 14 years after his conversion. Paul spoke to a different audience as well (Gentiles instead of Jews). JL changed his mind about the law of believing in what? 1988? I'm sure Paul liked the cheering of the crowd, too. This analogy is probably a 50% match, but still relevant IMO.
quote: They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.
JL made a very clear distinction on the video between what is true about believing and what is false, yet you stubbornly put it all in the same box of "law of believing". At least someone who is in denial doesn't have their head buried in the sand.
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