sky, I think you are absolutely right with the direction you are going here. When you think about psychological trauma, a lot of times people may say "oh but it was their choice to allow themselves to be put there". But what people don't realize is that this kind of trauma is a predator's game. There is a sickness in an adult that abuses a young child, who doesn't have the defenses to protect themself. This same sickness is in cult leaders who behave like VP did. And VP who followed. And RFR and those surrounding her who play the politics.
Now a young child doesn't have a choice. But how much older than young children were many who got involved with TWI? A young man or woman growing up in today's time many times does not emotionally mature as fast as 100 years ago, or on the frontier, or in Bible times. These older men and women who subject them to their sickness they have within themselves, that causes trauma. That trauma is real and tangible. We recognize it in our soldiers, who go over to fight in Iraq / Afghanistan for a year or two removed from reality - some suffer physical trauma, others PTSD in the emotional side of it.
It takes understanding this trauma, and a focused effort, and a lot of times direct help to get over things like this nature. Trauma physically changes people physically - many times their bodies are not the same after. It is the same psychologically with emotions and the intellect. Many of us have been changed by this experience. It can take years to overcome the emotions, the rejection, the learned helplessness.
Now I don't mean to come off like we're all completely damaged goods and looney tunes or anything. Of course the predators would love to label it that way, as it enables them in their evil. But it's real. It has to be dealt with. A spade has to be called a spade. That's part of the healing process.
I'm glad that at least around here we can talk about it.
I made a choice to go into the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program. I am responsible for making that choice. But, the choice was based on misinformation that was given to me by people I trusted. Do they get left off the hook here while I'm stuck holding the bag?
I made a choice to go into the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program. I am responsible for making that choice. But, the choice was based on misinformation that was given to me by people I trusted. Do they get left off the hook here while I'm stuck holding the bag?
What can be done now? You can't make 'em pay, you can't get your youth back, or your wasted time.
The term "psychological trauma" will make some roll their eyes I'm sure (not directed at you Broken Arrow)- at least certain associations I'm thinking of. It does sound really victim-mentality. Oh, the mental stress, or the emotional abuse. Boo hoo hoo. .
The "saddle back up and get on that horse son!" crowd won't like it. But if life has it's way and it's day everyone will take it between the eyes once or twice where it knocks 'em down and holds 'em down - hard. At those points that horse won't look so inviting.
" A spade has to be called a spade."
I put it - embrace the horror, look it clearly in the face. Celebrate the next breath and start on the next one. It's really one of those - can't get there without getting there kind of things for me. Warts and all, we'll live on if we persist.
There's always the other side of the coin where people are concerned - example: a few years ago I had the usall yearly performance evaluation thing. I'd rated myself pretty good but there some bumps in the year. I represented myself well I thought. My boss differed, he rated me a notch down overall. When we talked it through he was clearly uncomfortable, he knew I'd tried and done very well in some stuff but just felt a couple things fell through the cracks. I thought about it for about 30 seconds from his viewpoint and instead of arguing over it just said "You're right. I could have done better with those things". He let out a sigh,and practically got teary eyed. He told me how difficult it was for him to do this kind of thing - which we discussed as it actually affected how he communicated throughout the year. I gave him my personal mantra for bad news - "embrace the horror". When it's bad, lay it on me then. I may argue, may disagree but I can take bad news better than late news. I like the hit of reality when it's happening, not cold. Adjustments can be made then, not in hindsight. So you learn.
Different people have different ways of dealing with things, even when they apply the same ideas and ideals, I've found. "Trauma" occurs in different ways too. I've found building a better future a step at a time, thoughtfully, allows for a firmer foundation to build. Communication is a big part of it.
It was traumatic, disruptive, and damaged me psychologically. I am aware that some of my reactions or responses are not what they would have been otherwise.
I also reflect on what I've got from it...depths of understanding and compassion that I would have said were there, but actually weren't.
Clients come to see me. They explain their predicaments. I ask a few questions...and then I can say, and it was like this, wasn't it? and like this? and does this happen? And they look at me with tears in their eyes or running down their faces, and they say: "You know. You understand." There's a connection at that "heart" level. Then clients tell me what they've really got problems with.
As a pre-Way professional in a similar role...I really didn't understand. Couldn't understand. And too many professionals in the same role...still don't understand.
The psychological trauma from domestic abuse, in particular, is far more widespread than you might think. Many (wo)men don't recognise it as such. Emotional abuse. Financial abuse. Sexual abuse. Far more widespread than physical violence. And they have to be able to recognise it before they can even begin to take actions to change something. Walk away. Stand up for themselves. Make the domestic situation different.
No, I'm no psychologist.....just an avid observer of human behavior. And, reading thru the Lured thread, I again see, ANOTHER PERSON striving to cope with past experiences and trauma. Perhaps, I too was more deeply affected than I possibly care to admit.
The indoctrination, the bullying, the repetition, the confrontations, the stress......took their toll, especially for those of us who stayed "in the belly of the beast" for 10+ years. No two people had the SAME experience in twi. Depending on numerous factors, one could "breeze" thru with some laughs and prayers.......OR be the victim of sexual predation from wierwille and company.
I do know that the corps program put me on a path of accelerated indoctrination! But as many have pointed out.......the seeds of seduction and indoctrination were planted in pfal. From the onset, wierwille was sowing seeds of discontent and division. Remember, "stand on this word".....and don't let your FAMILY, FRIENDS OR CO-WORKERS talk you out of it. Put away ALL your other material.....and spend the NEXT THREE MONTHS on the pfal material.
Yeah....it WAS psychological trauma.
Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. When that trauma leads to posttraumatic stress disorder, damage may involve physical changes inside the brain and to brain chemistry, which changes the person's response to future stress.
A traumatic event involves a single experience, or an enduring or repeating event or events, that completely overwhelm the individual's ability to cope or integrate the ideas and emotions involved with that experience. The sense of being overwhelmed can be delayed by weeks, years or even decades, as the person struggles to cope with the immediate circumstances. Psychological trauma can lead to serious long-term negative consequences that are often overlooked even by mental health professionals: "If clinicians fail to look through a trauma lens and to conceptualize client problems as related possibly to current or past trauma, they may fail to see that trauma victims, young and old, organize much of their lives around repetitive patterns of reliving and warding off traumatic memories, reminders, and affects."[1]
Trauma can be caused by a wide variety of events, but there are a few common aspects. There is frequently a violation of the person's familiar ideas about the world and of their human rights, putting the person in a state of extreme confusion and insecurity. This is also seen when people or institutions, depended on for survival, violate or betray or disillusion the person in some unforeseen way.[2]
Psychological trauma may accompany physical trauma or exist independently of it. Typical causes and dangers of psychological trauma are sexual abuse, bullying, domestic violence, indoctrination,...
When you think about it, nearly everything in twi lead towards instability, insecurity and dependence. Twi's classes and programs were more important that your education, job, family, church, etc..........it was all, or nothing, always!
How many of us left twi......BROKE?
How many of us left twi......ABANDONED?
How many of us left twi......TO START AGAIN?
Books have been written, some are blogging and posting........and lurkers come to GS. Are they too traumatized to post? I don't know. Hopefully, all who come to GS are encouraged and uplifted by our posts.
May your wine glass be always full. :)
.
It is posts like this one that make me really glad Paw is keeping this place open. Yeah, the terms psychological trauma may carry a negative connotation to some. It may imply a victim mentality to some. But, at least some people were victims. Some people were victims before they came to TWI and TWI was just another way they re-played that trauma.
The fact is, some people do have victim mentality (or did). It takes recognizing that in oneself to overcome it and stop being a victim. If we don't talk about it - - if we refuse to acknowledge it, if we put down the person who suffers from it, how do we possibly overcome it or help someone else overcome it?
Great post, sky. And great thread. I've long been interested in knowing what a professional, who has been trained in recognizing and labeling such things, would identify as the psychological hooks used in pfal that elicited such unquestioned loyalty from so many students. What was it that happened to us, exactly? In my life I've attended many classes, seminars and courses where I learned a great deal and was excited about my new-found knowledge and understanding, but yet I didn't come away from the class feeling bound up by or unduly devoted to the teacher.
A trauma, yes, but also something of a psychological hijacking. Critical thinking skills were first suppressed, then effectively discouraged from reappearing. (Similar things happen in other walks of life; people are sometimes unduly devoted to a politician or an ideology, as two examples, and will simply brook no argument against them despite any and all good evidence to the contrary.)
i was young and messed up brought trauma with me and then it got piled on
in my evaluations "in the world" i have always tried to look at what they criticize me for, and even when i don't agree, i say thank you and will work on that -- have kept jobs and been promoted for that
oh this life is grand
ps. choose your shrinks wisely shop and re-shop around
It is posts like this one that make me really glad Paw is keeping this place open. Yeah, the terms psychological trauma may carry a negative connotation to some. It may imply a victim mentality to some. But, at least some people were victims. Some people were victims before they came to TWI and TWI was just another way they re-played that trauma.
The fact is, some people do have victim mentality (or did). It takes recognizing that in oneself to overcome it and stop being a victim. If we don't talk about it - - if we refuse to acknowledge it, if we put down the person who suffers from it, how do we possibly overcome it or help someone else overcome it?
I agree. Some time ago I was on an internet group supposedly friendly to ex-TWI'ers. When I asked a doctrinal question trying to understand something which had occurred to be during my stint in TWI, one of the members (apparently still active in TWI) blasted me for not "moving on" and then asserted he was "tired" of hearing all the "whining" about TWI and people claiming to be "a victim of everything".
My own feeling was that if someone is not interested in a topic, they should simply ignore the thread. Putting people down and trying to dictate what others should talk about smacked too much of TWI for me, so I did exactly what I did with TWI and left.
To me, discussing things which occurred, trying to understand them, and talking about your own experiences to show others that they were not along in their experiences is not "whining". There is indeed such a thing as a victim mentality, but simply relating what actually happened or trying to gain insight into what happened is not it. This is not merely useful for gaining insight into TWI. There are many organizations and people who employ the same sort of psychological tactics to get what they want. And just because someone is interested in discussing something doesn't mean they haven't "moved on". If you can identify the tactics in one case, you can be aware of them in all. That's the value of open discussion.
I made a choice to go into the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program. I am responsible for making that choice. But, the choice was based on misinformation that was given to me by people I trusted. Do they get left off the hook here while I'm stuck holding the bag?
No they don't!...drop the bag right on their foot, turn your back on them and walk away...don't look back. Like the rest of us, you were conned...recognize that fact and walk away from it...
I agree. Some time ago I was on an internet group supposedly friendly to ex-TWI'ers. When I asked a doctrinal question trying to understand something which had occurred to be during my stint in TWI, one of the members (apparently still active in TWI) blasted me for not "moving on" and then asserted he was "tired" of hearing all the "whining" about TWI and people claiming to be "a victim of everything".
My own feeling was that if someone is not interested in a topic, they should simply ignore the thread. Putting people down and trying to dictate what others should talk about smacked too much of TWI for me, so I did exactly what I did with TWI and left.
To me, discussing things which occurred, trying to understand them, and talking about your own experiences to show others that they were not along in their experiences is not "whining". There is indeed such a thing as a victim mentality, but simply relating what actually happened or trying to gain insight into what happened is not it. This is not merely useful for gaining insight into TWI. There are many organizations and people who employ the same sort of psychological tactics to get what they want. And just because someone is interested in discussing something doesn't mean they haven't "moved on". If you can identify the tactics in one case, you can be aware of them in all. That's the value of open discussion.
...and I'm trying not to say "get over it"...but in the final analysis it takes recognizing what they did and making a decision from there...
What can be done now? You can't make 'em pay, you can't get your youth back, or your wasted time.
I wrote that in response to something Waysider said earlier in this thread. Upon re-reading this, I think it is a bit harsh and doesn't really communicate what I believe.
What I was trying to communicate was that looking to the Way International for recompense is a waste of time. Examining one's self and assessing the damage is definitely not a waste of time. In fact, I think it's necessary in order to move on. I did not mean in any way to say "Quit your whining!" No, in my own experience it wasn't until I began to admit I was damaged that I began my own healing process.
In situations where I've been hurt either by TWI or someone else, I have never been able to have the person give me back what they took from me. In most cases I found the perpetators unwilling to admit their own abuse. Even in cases where the perpetrator was repentive, I found them unable to undo their own damage. So I have quit trying to get something back from the abuser. I still hold the other party accountable for their actions, though.
I wrote that in response to something Waysider said earlier in this thread. Upon re-reading this, I think it is a bit harsh and doesn't really communicate what I believe.
What I was trying to communicate was that looking to the Way International for recompense is a waste of time. Examining one's self and assessing the damage is definitely not a waste of time. In fact, I think it's necessary in order to move on. I did not mean in any way to say "Quit your whining!" No, in my own experience it wasn't until I began to admit I was damaged that I began my own healing process.
In situations where I've been hurt either by TWI or someone else, I have never been able to have the person give me back what they took from me. In most cases I found the perpetators unwilling to admit their own abuse. Even in cases where the perpetrator was repentive, I found them unable to undo their own damage. So I have quit trying to get something back from the abuser. I still hold the other party accountable for their actions, though.
Yes! I think you are right on the money. First, you are absolutely correct that with TWI or anyone else, you will never get recompense. Trying to get it is a waste of time for the reasons you have stated. That was why I never attempted to contact anyone in TWI again after I bailed, and on the two occasions I came in contact with TWI'ers I walked the other way. If they wanted to contact me, well, that would been their prerogative. But I was just as happy that they did not. I would not have expected any more honesty after the fact than before it. Simply holding people accountable for their actions doesn't mean you haven't "moved on". (I once had a female friend who hired a detective to track down a boyfriend who ditched her because she wanted to "hear it from him" and get "closure". Now that's obsession!)
I always have a tendency to dissect things, not out of some kind of obsession, but just as an exercise to learn whatever I can from it. I'm just as likely to have a discussion about Watergate or Gettysburg as something I personally experienced like TWI. Hopefully, discussions can help others avoid the same experiences.
blasted me for not "moving on" and then asserted he was "tired" of hearing all the "whining" about TWI and people claiming to be "a victim of everything".
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waysider
May your wine glass be always full. :)
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chockfull
sky, I think you are absolutely right with the direction you are going here. When you think about psychological trauma, a lot of times people may say "oh but it was their choice to allow themselves to be put there". But what people don't realize is that this kind of trauma is a predator's game. There is a sickness in an adult that abuses a young child, who doesn't have the defenses to protect themself. This same sickness is in cult leaders who behave like VP did. And VP who followed. And RFR and those surrounding her who play the politics.
Now a young child doesn't have a choice. But how much older than young children were many who got involved with TWI? A young man or woman growing up in today's time many times does not emotionally mature as fast as 100 years ago, or on the frontier, or in Bible times. These older men and women who subject them to their sickness they have within themselves, that causes trauma. That trauma is real and tangible. We recognize it in our soldiers, who go over to fight in Iraq / Afghanistan for a year or two removed from reality - some suffer physical trauma, others PTSD in the emotional side of it.
It takes understanding this trauma, and a focused effort, and a lot of times direct help to get over things like this nature. Trauma physically changes people physically - many times their bodies are not the same after. It is the same psychologically with emotions and the intellect. Many of us have been changed by this experience. It can take years to overcome the emotions, the rejection, the learned helplessness.
Now I don't mean to come off like we're all completely damaged goods and looney tunes or anything. Of course the predators would love to label it that way, as it enables them in their evil. But it's real. It has to be dealt with. A spade has to be called a spade. That's part of the healing process.
I'm glad that at least around here we can talk about it.
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waysider
I made a choice to go into the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program. I am responsible for making that choice. But, the choice was based on misinformation that was given to me by people I trusted. Do they get left off the hook here while I'm stuck holding the bag?
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Broken Arrow
What can be done now? You can't make 'em pay, you can't get your youth back, or your wasted time.
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socks
The term "psychological trauma" will make some roll their eyes I'm sure (not directed at you Broken Arrow)- at least certain associations I'm thinking of. It does sound really victim-mentality. Oh, the mental stress, or the emotional abuse. Boo hoo hoo. .
The "saddle back up and get on that horse son!" crowd won't like it. But if life has it's way and it's day everyone will take it between the eyes once or twice where it knocks 'em down and holds 'em down - hard. At those points that horse won't look so inviting.
" A spade has to be called a spade."
I put it - embrace the horror, look it clearly in the face. Celebrate the next breath and start on the next one. It's really one of those - can't get there without getting there kind of things for me. Warts and all, we'll live on if we persist.
There's always the other side of the coin where people are concerned - example: a few years ago I had the usall yearly performance evaluation thing. I'd rated myself pretty good but there some bumps in the year. I represented myself well I thought. My boss differed, he rated me a notch down overall. When we talked it through he was clearly uncomfortable, he knew I'd tried and done very well in some stuff but just felt a couple things fell through the cracks. I thought about it for about 30 seconds from his viewpoint and instead of arguing over it just said "You're right. I could have done better with those things". He let out a sigh,and practically got teary eyed. He told me how difficult it was for him to do this kind of thing - which we discussed as it actually affected how he communicated throughout the year. I gave him my personal mantra for bad news - "embrace the horror". When it's bad, lay it on me then. I may argue, may disagree but I can take bad news better than late news. I like the hit of reality when it's happening, not cold. Adjustments can be made then, not in hindsight. So you learn.
Different people have different ways of dealing with things, even when they apply the same ideas and ideals, I've found. "Trauma" occurs in different ways too. I've found building a better future a step at a time, thoughtfully, allows for a firmer foundation to build. Communication is a big part of it.
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Twinky
It had its good parts. And it had its bad parts.
It was traumatic, disruptive, and damaged me psychologically. I am aware that some of my reactions or responses are not what they would have been otherwise.
I also reflect on what I've got from it...depths of understanding and compassion that I would have said were there, but actually weren't.
Clients come to see me. They explain their predicaments. I ask a few questions...and then I can say, and it was like this, wasn't it? and like this? and does this happen? And they look at me with tears in their eyes or running down their faces, and they say: "You know. You understand." There's a connection at that "heart" level. Then clients tell me what they've really got problems with.
As a pre-Way professional in a similar role...I really didn't understand. Couldn't understand. And too many professionals in the same role...still don't understand.
The psychological trauma from domestic abuse, in particular, is far more widespread than you might think. Many (wo)men don't recognise it as such. Emotional abuse. Financial abuse. Sexual abuse. Far more widespread than physical violence. And they have to be able to recognise it before they can even begin to take actions to change something. Walk away. Stand up for themselves. Make the domestic situation different.
Wayfers don't have exclusives on that.
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Abigail
It is posts like this one that make me really glad Paw is keeping this place open. Yeah, the terms psychological trauma may carry a negative connotation to some. It may imply a victim mentality to some. But, at least some people were victims. Some people were victims before they came to TWI and TWI was just another way they re-played that trauma.
The fact is, some people do have victim mentality (or did). It takes recognizing that in oneself to overcome it and stop being a victim. If we don't talk about it - - if we refuse to acknowledge it, if we put down the person who suffers from it, how do we possibly overcome it or help someone else overcome it?
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OperaBuff
Great post, sky. And great thread. I've long been interested in knowing what a professional, who has been trained in recognizing and labeling such things, would identify as the psychological hooks used in pfal that elicited such unquestioned loyalty from so many students. What was it that happened to us, exactly? In my life I've attended many classes, seminars and courses where I learned a great deal and was excited about my new-found knowledge and understanding, but yet I didn't come away from the class feeling bound up by or unduly devoted to the teacher.
A trauma, yes, but also something of a psychological hijacking. Critical thinking skills were first suppressed, then effectively discouraged from reappearing. (Similar things happen in other walks of life; people are sometimes unduly devoted to a politician or an ideology, as two examples, and will simply brook no argument against them despite any and all good evidence to the contrary.)
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excathedra
i was young and messed up brought trauma with me and then it got piled on
in my evaluations "in the world" i have always tried to look at what they criticize me for, and even when i don't agree, i say thank you and will work on that -- have kept jobs and been promoted for that
oh this life is grand
ps. choose your shrinks wisely shop and re-shop around
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DocHoliday
I agree. Some time ago I was on an internet group supposedly friendly to ex-TWI'ers. When I asked a doctrinal question trying to understand something which had occurred to be during my stint in TWI, one of the members (apparently still active in TWI) blasted me for not "moving on" and then asserted he was "tired" of hearing all the "whining" about TWI and people claiming to be "a victim of everything".
My own feeling was that if someone is not interested in a topic, they should simply ignore the thread. Putting people down and trying to dictate what others should talk about smacked too much of TWI for me, so I did exactly what I did with TWI and left.
To me, discussing things which occurred, trying to understand them, and talking about your own experiences to show others that they were not along in their experiences is not "whining". There is indeed such a thing as a victim mentality, but simply relating what actually happened or trying to gain insight into what happened is not it. This is not merely useful for gaining insight into TWI. There are many organizations and people who employ the same sort of psychological tactics to get what they want. And just because someone is interested in discussing something doesn't mean they haven't "moved on". If you can identify the tactics in one case, you can be aware of them in all. That's the value of open discussion.
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GrouchoMarxJr
No they don't!...drop the bag right on their foot, turn your back on them and walk away...don't look back. Like the rest of us, you were conned...recognize that fact and walk away from it...
...and I'm trying not to say "get over it"...but in the final analysis it takes recognizing what they did and making a decision from there...
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Broken Arrow
I wrote that in response to something Waysider said earlier in this thread. Upon re-reading this, I think it is a bit harsh and doesn't really communicate what I believe.
What I was trying to communicate was that looking to the Way International for recompense is a waste of time. Examining one's self and assessing the damage is definitely not a waste of time. In fact, I think it's necessary in order to move on. I did not mean in any way to say "Quit your whining!" No, in my own experience it wasn't until I began to admit I was damaged that I began my own healing process.
In situations where I've been hurt either by TWI or someone else, I have never been able to have the person give me back what they took from me. In most cases I found the perpetators unwilling to admit their own abuse. Even in cases where the perpetrator was repentive, I found them unable to undo their own damage. So I have quit trying to get something back from the abuser. I still hold the other party accountable for their actions, though.
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DocHoliday
Yes! I think you are right on the money. First, you are absolutely correct that with TWI or anyone else, you will never get recompense. Trying to get it is a waste of time for the reasons you have stated. That was why I never attempted to contact anyone in TWI again after I bailed, and on the two occasions I came in contact with TWI'ers I walked the other way. If they wanted to contact me, well, that would been their prerogative. But I was just as happy that they did not. I would not have expected any more honesty after the fact than before it. Simply holding people accountable for their actions doesn't mean you haven't "moved on". (I once had a female friend who hired a detective to track down a boyfriend who ditched her because she wanted to "hear it from him" and get "closure". Now that's obsession!)
I always have a tendency to dissect things, not out of some kind of obsession, but just as an exercise to learn whatever I can from it. I'm just as likely to have a discussion about Watergate or Gettysburg as something I personally experienced like TWI. Hopefully, discussions can help others avoid the same experiences.
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Watered Garden
Living well is the best revenge.
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Broken Arrow
Indeed!
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excathedra
i believe i know that guy
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Broken Arrow
Golly gee...I wonder if he posts here under the name of...oh well.
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