The phrase 'down on their luck' implies that these people are somehow not responsible for their actions.
quote: "bad decisions" can be construed as "not as crafty or refined as vpw" or "less resources at their disposal than those who get away with it"
Again, somehow not responsible for their actions just because others can afford better lawyers. Not buying it.
quote:
(down on luck could mean a mental handicap that is not recognized by the system yet . . . or a language barrier . . . racism etc.)
Again, somehow not responsible for their actions because others aren't targets of racism. Being responsible for your own actions is for YOU, not society. If YOU take responsibility for your own actions, then you will be in a much better position to make your own luck, like Joseph did. He was sold into slavery by his bretheren, didn't speak Egyptian, wasn't from Egypt. But he made his own luck by trusting God. You didn't want to hear that, did you?
John...sometimes the punishment doesn't fit the crime, as in the case of minimum sentencing guidelines. The system is not just in that respect alone. A one time non-violent offender on a related drug charge can actually get more time than a person convicted of home invasion. You should consider the bit about buying justice with better lawyers...it is true. Americans incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any other place on the planet. at 736 out of every 100,000 people. 152% higher than GB. When you break down those US prison stats...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males. It is obscene. Prison stats, coupled with race and economic stats, should be enough to convince you.
quote: You stated your position as being that hard work and determination are all that is needed to succeed in this life, that if someone should find themself incarcerated, it's their own fault. That is the position I refuted.
I posted no such thing.
quote: ...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males
This reminds me of a Richard Pryor routine. He and Gene Wilder did that movie Bustin' Loose at a prison in AZ. So Richard was wondering why, since there are no black people to speak of in AZ, then why are there 20,000 of them in this prison? What is wrong with this picture? Then he talked to some of the prisoners. One conversation went like this...
RP: What are you in for?
Prisoner: I killed my family.
RP: What for?
Prisoner: Dey was home.
After a few conversations like this RP decided he was GLAD there were penitentiaries for these MFs.
The fact is... most of the evil and wrongs people do are not illegal.
Think of the 10 commandments... other gods, ignoring the sabbath, dishonoring parents, certain types of murder (abortion, euthanasia, most warfare, inciting reckless behavior that can lead to injury), adultery, promiscuity, most lying, some stealing and all coveting are entirely legal. Many or most emotionally damaging things are legal as well (such as hate, disrespect, inciting conflict, anger, greed, damaging others' reputations and careers, etc).A lot of illness comes from legal behavior (STDs from sex outside marriage, cancer from smoking, etc).
The legal system is designed just to address some types of clearly destructive behavior, no more. The tip of the iceberg. Furthermore, the legal system does nothing to induce good, godly behavior (for instance, it doesn't reward people for generosity, showing love, etc).
Law is totally inept for producing goodness and godliness. This is why Jesus Christ came, to inspire, teach and enable us to love and truly good works.
Law is totally inept for producing goodness and godliness. This is why Jesus Christ came, to inspire, teach and enable us to love and truly good works.
This reminds me of when Jesus said it's not what you put in your mouth that defiles you; it's what comes out of your mouth.
VP defined law as a command to do something or refrain from doing something issued by a competent authority according to jurisprudence. (apparently thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife aren't competent enough) Even though the laws Moses wrote down originated from God, they were in the hands of people to enforce. In the same writing VP said justice is usually fraught with error.
I know that people end up in prison who shouldn't. If it was me I'd just pray a lot. What else could I do? The guy I referred to who got sentenced to 18 years? The 18 years part is up for debate, but he did something very serious (not sexual). Most people just somehow figure out how to stay out of trouble. Especially people who have families.
I posted earlier that if I hadn't got into twi that I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for that. Odds are I would have had a third at some point. Maybe a fourth. TWI, for all its faults, gave me a support system. Once I went wow, I was with twi people 24/7. For years. That was all I needed to break free from the drug crowd. From that viewpoint I firmly believe that anybody can make their own luck.
There are some wonderful Prison Ministries(Chuck Colson) and real Pastor's who volunteer their time to hold services every Sunday. Inmates have access to bibles, bible study. and fellowship. There are mentoring programs designed and implemented by Christians to help inmates assimilate back into society when they are released.
If you have some time Johniam, you should check it out and volunteer. It might give you a better perspective on what it means to make your own luck.
Well worth your time at the least and a good way to serve the Lord. Visit the prisoners.
I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
quote: School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
There's no happy ending for this. Yes, people who don't belong in jail go there and people who do don't. Sometimes it's as simple as the school yard bully situation and sometimes it's not.
I'm keeping one eye on the Rod Blagoiavicz (sp) trial #2. As governor of Illinois, he tried to sell Obama's vacant senate seat to the highest bidder. Feds have been investigating him for years. They have him on tape calling Obama a MF as well as other things. He's acting cocky. Sure looks guilty to me. SOMEBODY is trying to get him off other than his lawyer. Who knows how that's going to turn out? The guy looks like Bobby Goldsboro with his hair dyed.
There's no happy ending for this. Yes, people who don't belong in jail go there and people who do don't. Sometimes it's as simple as the school yard bully situation and sometimes it's not.
I'm keeping one eye on the Rod Blagoiavicz (sp) trial #2. As governor of Illinois, he tried to sell Obama's vacant senate seat to the highest bidder. Feds have been investigating him for years. They have him on tape calling Obama a MF as well as other things. He's acting cocky. Sure looks guilty to me. SOMEBODY is trying to get him off other than his lawyer. Who knows how that's going to turn out? The guy looks like Bobby Goldsboro with his hair dyed.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. Helps if you use the " ", or start another thread
School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
I don't think society at large valued VP...he was a cult leader and most outside our sub-culture that knew of him...knew what he was....others were smart enough to stay away or just not care. We were a small specific society centered around a personality. When the personality was gone...the society fell apart. We may have called ourselves the "household" of God, but we were nothing more than the house that VP built on sand...IMO.
I don't think society at large valued VP...he was a cult leader and most outside our sub-culture that knew of him...knew what he was....others were smart enough to stay away or just not care. We were a small specific society centered around a personality. When the personality was gone...the society fell apart. We may have called ourselves the "household" of God, but we were nothing more than the house that VP built on sand...IMO.
Add: And yes, I believe he was a bully.
Ah yes, but he was a crafty bully. As soon as he sensed people moving away from them he'd put on a nice guy front. Just enough to reel you back in. Then, just when you relax, zap! That's a typical ploy of a person that manipulates others. They'll give just enough of what you need or want to keep you around. Once they have you back, they resume the abuse.
Paw, there are some threads about someone in the 14(?) WC doing prison time for molesting an underage girl. I'm not sure if he was a "leader" or not.
That's Victor Barnard. He was no longer involved with TWI when he started his own cult and raped multiple tweens. He's behind bars now and probably will never walk free again. That's not who Pawtucket was referring to in April 2011. We only learned about Barnard in 2014 or 2015.
That's Victor Barnard. He was no longer involved with TWI when he started his own cult and raped multiple tweens. He's behind bars now and probably will never walk free again. That's not who Pawtucket was referring to in April 2011. We only learned about Barnard in 2014 or 2015.
Rocky, I was not referring to him!! This guy got six years for molesting one underage girl. Was his first name Mark? VB molested several underage girls.
School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
Bol, I thought a lot of nerds turned into successful adults. I think I read that Bill Gates was considered a nerd in his youth. No one can say that he isn't a success.
Rocky, I was not referring to him!! This guy got six years for molesting one underage girl. Was his first name Mark? VB molested several underage girls.
Bol, I thought a lot of nerds turned into successful adults. I think I read that Bill Gates was considered a nerd in his youth. No one can say that he isn't a success.
There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- where the assertive, alpha jock is celebrated, and is excused if he breaks the rules, even at the expense of the nerd, who is ignored since he's not socially- exceptional, and ends up surviving his encounters with a bully rather than having recourse. Some places have changes written down that show zero-tolerance for bullies, but in practice, it's still done, often in front of adults, with adults excusing it as "rough play" or other names when they ignore it.
I think there have been SOME changes, but in some places, it's exactly the same as it was a generation ago.
Grace, VPW picked on those who didn't understand what they were doing. (This thread is about 6 years old now, I may have struggled to articulate a point)
That he was allowed to do so. Was it because the legal system was insufficient and unaware? Or a price of a free society? Should the focus be on VPW as sly tyrant or the individual as inept?
VPW himself appears to have gotten away with his actions. But maybe that's the wrong questions to ponder.
There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- where the assertive, alpha jock is celebrated, and is excused if he breaks the rules, even at the expense of the nerd, who is ignored since he's not socially- exceptional, and ends up surviving his encounters with a bully rather than having recourse. Some places have changes written down that show zero-tolerance for bullies, but in practice, it's still done, often in front of adults, with adults excusing it as "rough play" or other names when they ignore it.
I think there have been SOME changes, but in some places, it's exactly the same as it was a generation ago.
Way, I was often bullied in school, but I was bullied much more at home, by my brothers. I think we as adults, need to teach our kids that bulling is wrong, and unacceptable behavior.
Grace, VPW picked on those who didn't understand what they were doing. (This thread is about 6 years old now, I may have struggled to articulate a point)
That he was allowed to do so. Was it because the legal system was insufficient and unaware? Or a price of a free society? Should the focus be on VPW as sly tyrant or the individual as inept?
VPW himself appears to have gotten away with his actions. But maybe that's the wrong questions to ponder.
Bol, I think he was allowed to get away with bullying, because he was surrounded by "yes" men. Many of his inner circle tolerated his behavior to curry favor with him. I think bullies are often insecure individuals with low self-esteem. I think this was true of VPW, and many of the people he surrounded himself with.
Bol, I think he was allowed to get away with bullying, because he was surrounded by "yes" men. Many of his inner circle tolerated his behavior to curry favor with him. I think bullies are often insecure individuals with low self-esteem. I think this was true of VPW, and many of the people he surrounded himself with.
Similar thing happened with Hitler. He spoke grievances to a large audience, the crowd applauded. Nobody, can resist that, his ego grew. Our interactions with others do affect our reality.
There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- where the assertive, alpha jock is celebrated, and is excused if he breaks the rules, even at the expense of the nerd, who is ignored since he's not socially- exceptional, and ends up surviving his encounters with a bully rather than having recourse. Some places have changes written down that show zero-tolerance for bullies, but in practice, it's still done, often in front of adults, with adults excusing it as "rough play" or other names when they ignore it.
I think there have been SOME changes, but in some places, it's exactly the same as it was a generation ago.
There's a further dynamic. The evil genius. The mad scientist. Wormtongue. Nerdy is equated with evil . . . there's a danger there. Who's the real bully?
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waysider
Have you ever known anyone who's done hard time, John? It doesn't sound like you have. You come across as being very naive about how the penal system actually works. I don't mean that as a personal af
WordWolf
There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- wher
Grace Valerie Claire
Way, I was often bullied in school, but I was bullied much more at home, by my brothers. I think we as adults, need to teach our kids that bulling is wrong, and unacceptable behavior.
excathedra
there's some wayfer guy here doing time for being a pedo
i'm not saying being in the way made him one
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Ham
but.. da way's class which included Discerning of Faults seems to have failed, hasn't it?
I mean.. how could something like that slide below their "radar" or something?
It's got to hurt. But no. Da Board always passes (and marks and avoids) the buck..
rosie. You had a child molester among the ranks. As one who "stands in da gap".. it seems you weren't standing, that day, month, year, or decade..
there are still worse "among you"..
at least that's my perception..
even recently.. you've had one of "your kind" outed by the court system.. even plead guilty..
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geisha779
John...sometimes the punishment doesn't fit the crime, as in the case of minimum sentencing guidelines. The system is not just in that respect alone. A one time non-violent offender on a related drug charge can actually get more time than a person convicted of home invasion. You should consider the bit about buying justice with better lawyers...it is true. Americans incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any other place on the planet. at 736 out of every 100,000 people. 152% higher than GB. When you break down those US prison stats...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males. It is obscene. Prison stats, coupled with race and economic stats, should be enough to convince you.
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johniam
quote: You stated your position as being that hard work and determination are all that is needed to succeed in this life, that if someone should find themself incarcerated, it's their own fault. That is the position I refuted.
I posted no such thing.
quote: ...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males
This reminds me of a Richard Pryor routine. He and Gene Wilder did that movie Bustin' Loose at a prison in AZ. So Richard was wondering why, since there are no black people to speak of in AZ, then why are there 20,000 of them in this prison? What is wrong with this picture? Then he talked to some of the prisoners. One conversation went like this...
RP: What are you in for?
Prisoner: I killed my family.
RP: What for?
Prisoner: Dey was home.
After a few conversations like this RP decided he was GLAD there were penitentiaries for these MFs.
I said life isn't always fair.
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johnj
The fact is... most of the evil and wrongs people do are not illegal.
Think of the 10 commandments... other gods, ignoring the sabbath, dishonoring parents, certain types of murder (abortion, euthanasia, most warfare, inciting reckless behavior that can lead to injury), adultery, promiscuity, most lying, some stealing and all coveting are entirely legal. Many or most emotionally damaging things are legal as well (such as hate, disrespect, inciting conflict, anger, greed, damaging others' reputations and careers, etc).A lot of illness comes from legal behavior (STDs from sex outside marriage, cancer from smoking, etc).
The legal system is designed just to address some types of clearly destructive behavior, no more. The tip of the iceberg. Furthermore, the legal system does nothing to induce good, godly behavior (for instance, it doesn't reward people for generosity, showing love, etc).
Law is totally inept for producing goodness and godliness. This is why Jesus Christ came, to inspire, teach and enable us to love and truly good works.
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johniam
quote:
Law is totally inept for producing goodness and godliness. This is why Jesus Christ came, to inspire, teach and enable us to love and truly good works.
This reminds me of when Jesus said it's not what you put in your mouth that defiles you; it's what comes out of your mouth.
VP defined law as a command to do something or refrain from doing something issued by a competent authority according to jurisprudence. (apparently thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife aren't competent enough) Even though the laws Moses wrote down originated from God, they were in the hands of people to enforce. In the same writing VP said justice is usually fraught with error.
I know that people end up in prison who shouldn't. If it was me I'd just pray a lot. What else could I do? The guy I referred to who got sentenced to 18 years? The 18 years part is up for debate, but he did something very serious (not sexual). Most people just somehow figure out how to stay out of trouble. Especially people who have families.
I posted earlier that if I hadn't got into twi that I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for that. Odds are I would have had a third at some point. Maybe a fourth. TWI, for all its faults, gave me a support system. Once I went wow, I was with twi people 24/7. For years. That was all I needed to break free from the drug crowd. From that viewpoint I firmly believe that anybody can make their own luck.
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Bolshevik
Just as VPW made his own luck? Better liar, more freedom.
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geisha779
There are some wonderful Prison Ministries(Chuck Colson) and real Pastor's who volunteer their time to hold services every Sunday. Inmates have access to bibles, bible study. and fellowship. There are mentoring programs designed and implemented by Christians to help inmates assimilate back into society when they are released.
If you have some time Johniam, you should check it out and volunteer. It might give you a better perspective on what it means to make your own luck.
Well worth your time at the least and a good way to serve the Lord. Visit the prisoners.
I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
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Bolshevik
School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
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johniam
quote: School yard bully could be another example. Society honors him and shuns the nerd. The bully might goad the nerd into doing his homework, and then take is lunch money. But the bully is needed to win sports games. He is above rules that apply to others.
Was VPW a bully? Did society value him over others?
There's no happy ending for this. Yes, people who don't belong in jail go there and people who do don't. Sometimes it's as simple as the school yard bully situation and sometimes it's not.
I'm keeping one eye on the Rod Blagoiavicz (sp) trial #2. As governor of Illinois, he tried to sell Obama's vacant senate seat to the highest bidder. Feds have been investigating him for years. They have him on tape calling Obama a MF as well as other things. He's acting cocky. Sure looks guilty to me. SOMEBODY is trying to get him off other than his lawyer. Who knows how that's going to turn out? The guy looks like Bobby Goldsboro with his hair dyed.
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Bolshevik
I don't see what this has to do with anything. Helps if you use the "
", or start another thread
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geisha779
I don't think society at large valued VP...he was a cult leader and most outside our sub-culture that knew of him...knew what he was....others were smart enough to stay away or just not care. We were a small specific society centered around a personality. When the personality was gone...the society fell apart. We may have called ourselves the "household" of God, but we were nothing more than the house that VP built on sand...IMO.
Add: And yes, I believe he was a bully.
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Broken Arrow
Ah yes, but he was a crafty bully. As soon as he sensed people moving away from them he'd put on a nice guy front. Just enough to reel you back in. Then, just when you relax, zap! That's a typical ploy of a person that manipulates others. They'll give just enough of what you need or want to keep you around. Once they have you back, they resume the abuse.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Paw, there are some threads about someone in the 14(?) WC doing prison time for molesting an underage girl. I'm not sure if he was a "leader" or not.
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Rocky
That's Victor Barnard. He was no longer involved with TWI when he started his own cult and raped multiple tweens. He's behind bars now and probably will never walk free again. That's not who Pawtucket was referring to in April 2011. We only learned about Barnard in 2014 or 2015.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I was not referring to him!! This guy got six years for molesting one underage girl. Was his first name Mark? VB molested several underage girls.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I thought a lot of nerds turned into successful adults. I think I read that Bill Gates was considered a nerd in his youth. No one can say that he isn't a success.
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Rocky
AFAIK, VB was the only one in the 14th corpse.
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WordWolf
There ARE some tech wizards who started out as nerds and geeks, and now are on top- society has shifted somewhat over the decades. Bol was pointing out that the school-level stuff often does not- where the assertive, alpha jock is celebrated, and is excused if he breaks the rules, even at the expense of the nerd, who is ignored since he's not socially- exceptional, and ends up surviving his encounters with a bully rather than having recourse. Some places have changes written down that show zero-tolerance for bullies, but in practice, it's still done, often in front of adults, with adults excusing it as "rough play" or other names when they ignore it.
I think there have been SOME changes, but in some places, it's exactly the same as it was a generation ago.
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Bolshevik
Grace, VPW picked on those who didn't understand what they were doing. (This thread is about 6 years old now, I may have struggled to articulate a point)
That he was allowed to do so. Was it because the legal system was insufficient and unaware? Or a price of a free society? Should the focus be on VPW as sly tyrant or the individual as inept?
VPW himself appears to have gotten away with his actions. But maybe that's the wrong questions to ponder.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, I was often bullied in school, but I was bullied much more at home, by my brothers. I think we as adults, need to teach our kids that bulling is wrong, and unacceptable behavior.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I think he was allowed to get away with bullying, because he was surrounded by "yes" men. Many of his inner circle tolerated his behavior to curry favor with him. I think bullies are often insecure individuals with low self-esteem. I think this was true of VPW, and many of the people he surrounded himself with.
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Bolshevik
Similar thing happened with Hitler. He spoke grievances to a large audience, the crowd applauded. Nobody, can resist that, his ego grew. Our interactions with others do affect our reality.
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Bolshevik
There's a further dynamic. The evil genius. The mad scientist. Wormtongue. Nerdy is equated with evil . . . there's a danger there. Who's the real bully?
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