Jail time

[Bolshevik]

Prison is full of folks down on their luck. People our society shuns. They don't fit in, so they end up in jail.

Did vpw, lcm or rosie ever go to jail for what they've done? Did their most-loyal followers?

Is our society/culture is accepting of folks like vpw, lcm and rosie?

[pawtucket]

I only know of one leader that did time for some type of extortion. Not sure of the details, I think he was in Good Seed, way back when.

[Bramble]

Many in our society admire authoritarians and bullies as real men or leaders, and despise those who they consider weak or needy. IMO.

[Broken Arrow]

Prison is full of folks down on their luck. People our society shuns. They don't fit in, so they end up in jail.

Did vpw, lcm or rosie ever go to jail for what they've done? Did their most-loyal followers?

Is our society/culture is accepting of folks like vpw, lcm and rosie?

Is society/culture is accepting of folks like vpw etc.?

Yes, as long as they don't get caught. That's my take on society, anyway.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[Ductape]

Joe Smith jail time worked well for Igham Young promoting his "church". How many times were the faithful jailed?

[DogLover]

I only know of one leader that did time for some type of extortion. Not sure of the details, I think he was in Good Seed, way back when.

Yep .. Rick Panyard.

[johniam]

quote: Prison is full of folks down on their luck. People our society shuns. They don't fit in, so they end up in jail.

Our society accepts anybody who has the initiative to make their own luck. Before twi I had 2 arrests for pot. If I had not gotten into twi I think I probably WOULD have spent my adult life in and out of prison. VP once said, "there's a judgement day for newspapers". There's a judgement day for those who despitefully use people as well.

[waysider]

"Our society accepts anybody who has the initiative to make their own luck"

What the heck does that mean????

[Bolshevik]

"Our society accepts anybody who has the initiative to make their own luck"

What the heck does that mean????

Yep.

[Ductape]

And here I thought prison was full of criminals. Thanks for helping my understanding.

[Bolshevik]

And here I thought prison was full of criminals. . . .

Um . . . nobody said it wasn't.

[Ductape]

Sorry,

Took the "down on their luck" wrong then.

[mstar1]

Sorry,

Took the "down on their luck" wrong then.

Me too--I know some people who are "down on their luck" who dont end up in prison, although I know some that have too... down on their luck may be part of it but its usually combined with some pretty bad decisions somewhere along the line if someone ends up in jail...

I dont know how 'accepting' people are of those people you named.

Personally, of the people that have even heard of them, I'd bet that they have more opponents than followers.

They may walk a crooked line and there are plenty of people that know it but so far they havent been caught at anything with enough available evidence or run into a prosecutor with enough persistance to put them away...

Edited April 26, 2011 by mstar1

[Bolshevik]

see . . . "bad decisions" can be construed as "not as crafty or refined as vpw" or "less resources at their disposal than those who get away with it"

. . . why didn't vpw go to jail?

(down on luck could mean a mental handicap that is not recognized by the system yet . . . or a language barrier . . . racism etc.)

[JavaJane]

Or even bad counsel because they can't affOrd good lawyers... I have a family member who is a prosecuting attorney. He says he can't believe how many public defenders tell people who are innocent to plead guilty just to get them off their case load.

In comparison, Rosie, Vic, LCM, Howard Allen, et al have the best paid attorneys.

[Ductape]

Did any one ever try to get VPW prosecuted? Did any one come forward while he was alive?

LCM was taken down in civil court, was he ever charged with a crime?

[mstar1]

VP had a good con game going--he first built it in people in TWI that he was frickin Moses or Paul or something and that he was inherently better than them.

Rape wasnt just rape it was compounded and confused by the programming that made it, if not impossible,at the very least extremely difficult for the victims to step forward.

I do remember stories of people suing to get their money back after they were promised healing or whatever if they handed over their $$$, which was sometimes substantial amounts.

I would have thought some of things might have been enough to land him in jail and may have if he were in any other field--of course having your own personal 'legal department' fends off alot especially poorer people that TWI preyed on

[pawtucket]

Rule number one in the How to Run a Cult Handbook is Get the best lawyers possible!!!

[WordWolf]

Did any one ever try to get VPW prosecuted? Did any one come forward while he was alive?

LCM was taken down in civil court, was he ever charged with a crime?

If you want to see what vpw valued, look at what he focused on.

Example 1:

A program of commitment to learn about God for 4 years. The curriculum was hazy,

much of it was simple exercise or manual labor for free,

and when ANYTHING professional was added, it was to teach the Bible students

how to SELL-the Dale Carnegie stuff. The rest of the time, the people lived in

large closets and ate disgusting, cheap food. Which they paid for.

In hindsight, it's obvious the whole program was sort of slapped together at

the last minute.

Example 2:

vpw wanted women to molest, rape, etc. First, he had all the women who would

be on-grounds for a few years (in the corps program) write an autobiography.

Out of those, he separated out those with a history that included sexual abuse,

since it's known that women who have been victimized sexually in their past

are easier to victimize in the present or future-since their sense of what is

normal and acceptable has been damaged.

So, he now had a "pool" of names of women who might be easier targets. From those,

he weeds out those who are well-connected with lots of family in twi, and those

with tough husbands who might beat the ca-ca out of him if he laid a hand on their

wife. He now had a much shorter list of his most viable targets.

Then, he had a number of places which he had prepared where he could be alone and

undisturbed with a woman, that also contained some sort of bed or couch

(a cushy office, an RV reserved for him, etc.) He enlisted his NETWORK of criminal

accomplices, who arranged-when he asked- for one of the women to be told to meet

him at one of those at a specific place and time. When they arrived (thinking only

the most noble things about why they could possibly be called to speak to vpw),

he then contrived to have alcohol on-hand and to talk them into sharing it with him

(which would reduce their inhibitions.) Once it took effect, he would spin a tale about

how his wife was physically unable to satisfy him, and how he needed (not "wanted",

"needed") their help to cheat on his wife, who didn't mind, and how God didn't mind

either and wanted vpw's so-called "need" met, and how "if you're able to take it",

God doesn't mind adultery and you can ignore all the verses that clearly say so....

Some women balked- which is why at times, he resorted to drugging them unconscious.

In each case, right after the women left his presence, he would then have-by arrangement-

one or more of his criminal cadre follow them around, and "exit-counsel" them about how

vpw was right and reinforce his lies. They also monitored the woman for signs she might

tell someone about vpw committing a felony- and vpw immediately had those women kicked out

of twi, sent home on a slow bus, and immediately savaged their reputations back home so that

no one would believe them even if they could bring themselves to speak about it after having

been treated so horribly.

And he did it all while keeping up a public persona of a man who would never consider doing

such a thing- so tales of his crimes could easily be disbelieved.

That took a LOT of planning and a LOT of work.

vpw cared A LOT about victimizing women and feeding his lusts for sex, alcohol and tobacco.

vpw cared A LITTLE about the way corps.

vpw was not sent to jail because he covered his tracks FAR too well. In regards to sex crimes,

he was a criminal mastermind.

[Ductape]

Without actual knowledge of his motivations and knowing what really ran through his mind all we can do is speculate and guess. We can form opinions, opinions even based in facts are still opinions.

My opinion was he was a predator and as a predator chose his prey very carefully. There are some reports of his prey belonging to families that the majority of the family were associated with TWI. But it was never known what he had done for years, not until after his death. He knew who to prey on. Then there was the era he lived and leached. Most rape victims knew they would be on trial more than the rapist.

LCM was convinced it was his right and wasn't a smart enough a predator to wisely pick his prey. But that's just my opinion.

[johniam]

The phrase 'down on their luck' implies that these people are somehow not responsible for their actions.

quote: "bad decisions" can be construed as "not as crafty or refined as vpw" or "less resources at their disposal than those who get away with it"

Again, somehow not responsible for their actions just because others can afford better lawyers. Not buying it.

quote:

(down on luck could mean a mental handicap that is not recognized by the system yet . . . or a language barrier . . . racism etc.)

Again, somehow not responsible for their actions because others aren't targets of racism. Being responsible for your own actions is for YOU, not society. If YOU take responsibility for your own actions, then you will be in a much better position to make your own luck, like Joseph did. He was sold into slavery by his bretheren, didn't speak Egyptian, wasn't from Egypt. But he made his own luck by trusting God. You didn't want to hear that, did you?

[waysider]

Have you ever known anyone who's done hard time, John? It doesn't sound like you have. You come across as being very naive about how the penal system actually works. I don't mean that as a personal affront. It's simply an observation.

Many years ago, I worked for a very large company that had a cooperative agreement with one of the local prisons. They gave jobs to felons being released after incarceration. These were real jobs as welders, electricians, machinery mechanics and such. These were their first jobs as they made their way back into the mainstream workforce. I worked beside them. I got to know some of them quite well. I found that many of the stereotypes being promoted by the news and entertainment industry have very little foundation in reality.

If you think hard work and determination are all that is needed to succeed, I suggest you may have succumbed to some of the falsehoods of propaganda.

Edited April 29, 2011 by waysider

[johniam]

Propaganda?

I know a man who was just sentenced to 18 years in prison. He is 54 years old. I've known him for over 30 years. Yes, he's a believer. Was a twig coordinator, wow, AC grad, has 3 children of his own. Down on his luck? Sure. Aren't we all.

This thread isn't really about people going to prison; it's about people who don't go to prison. Life isn't always fair. At least, THIS life isn't always fair. I have hope of a life beyond this life. You?

[waysider]

Propaganda?

I know a man who was just sentenced to 18 years in prison. He is 54 years old. I've known him for over 30 years. Yes, he's a believer. Was a twig coordinator, wow, AC grad, has 3 children of his own. Down on his luck? Sure. Aren't we all.

This thread isn't really about people going to prison; it's about people who don't go to prison. Life isn't always fair. At least, THIS life isn't always fair. I have hope of a life beyond this life. You?

Ya see, there ya go again, John, completely ignoring changing the point that was being addressed. (ie:I have hope of a life beyond this life. You? ) How did this become about eternal life or anyone's particular opinion on the subject? You stated your position as being that hard work and determination are all that is needed to succeed in this life, that if someone should find themself incarcerated, it's their own fault. That is the position I refuted.

Edited April 30, 2011 by waysider

[Bolshevik]

. . .

Again, somehow not responsible for their actions because others aren't targets of racism. Being responsible for your own actions is for YOU, not society. If YOU take responsibility for your own actions, then you will be in a much better position to make your own luck, like Joseph did. He was sold into slavery by his bretheren, didn't speak Egyptian, wasn't from Egypt. But he made his own luck by trusting God. You didn't want to hear that, did you?

I don't follow your logic. Joseph took responsibility for everyone else's actions, it seems to me.

I don't recall anyone arguing not to take responsibility for one's actions.

You're answer to injustice is to invoke the supernatural. Supernatural beings don't run the impersonal court/legal/law enforcement systems. Maybe they do?

It's a better system than many times and places. But still unfair and worthy to consider, IMO.