Your response is requested!

[socks]

T Zam! You've actually touched on a fundamental aspect to "being" a Christian I've been chatting with a friend about, kicking some stuff around.

There's a very fundamental understanding of that verse in Peter you're referring to that's pretty cool and if you'll allow I'll set it out here...

Broadly - in the Bible the new birth/born again message is referred to in two ways and 1 Peter 1:23 hits them both....that is that a person is "born OF" God, and that birth or birthing as I've seen it termed, comes BY the Word of God or to us through the Word of God.

This isn't a matter of preposition-twisting or trying to give a gnat a black eye with a hammer. It appears to be a very basic and consistent reference in the N. T. writings and it's as much common sense as anything I think.

Born OF God is where the incorruptible part comes in - OF the spirit, of God. That comes from, by, through - by means of - the Word of God, logos, the expressions of God that open this up to us. Jesus Christ is to as "the Logos", the living logos, "the way the truth and the life". Logos could be said to represent the total "will" or "word" of God.

1 Peter is often cross referenced to Romans 10: 9 and 10, and there this idea is set in the preceding verse 8, the "word" is near or ready, and is the "word" of faith that is preached. "Word" there is the greek "rhema" which is a very general word for spoken words, stuff that's actually said. Where logos often implies reason, thought, a will, intent, purpose, rhemas is more actual communication. When Jesus referred to the "words that proceed out of the mouth of God" it's the simple basic rhemas and would be similar to a spoken message. Jesus said he spoke "words" of life. So in Romans 8 the means of the message is referred to, and in 9 and 10 the mouth, confession, believe, heart refers to the whole human belief and declaration and not the ol' one-time "I believe" kind of "getting saved" "word" formula.

Jesus as the "logos" means He's a/the living expression of God's intent and purpose. There's also the message spoken or written that comes from Jesus Christ who declares "the Father", openly revealing God to us.

Again, I have to get past the nit picky word-word-word-theword thing and look at it in a simpler and more holistic way to see how simple it is. Born again OF God and that coming BY the Word. If I get hung up on logos/rhemas and try to suss those words out too tight in each usage though it can get tweezey real fast but generally it's good to understand that "logos" has that implication of reason and purpose and "rhemas" has the meaning of actual expression. They're not used exclusively that way in the Bible from what I've seen but given their external use it should be considered when trying to understand better what the Bible's saying. (and as 1 Peter 5:12 refers to the writing being done with the help of another Silas/Silvanus, 1 Peter as other books in the N. T. likely have a wide range of language skills used in the writings which would have an impact on the choice of words. Inspired by God, yes I believe that, but then as now words have to be chosen to communicate the message, whatever it is).

Anyhoo it's a good meditation, to "think on these things".

[waysider]

But I get to do that now that I am not in TWI. Is that okay with you? Couldn't do that then but I can now!! Or would you rather I do it VPs way?

Sure, VP cherry picked, I cherry pick, you cherry pick, we all cherry pick. It's basic human nature. We tend to latch onto the evidence that agrees with our position and ignore that which doesn't. The point is simply this: if you want to improve your critical thinking skills, it becomes necessary to recognize when cherry picking is in progress. That's a skill that extends beyond Biblical discussions, and into all areas of life.

Here is a link I have found to be helpful in that respect.

CLICK

Edited May 1, 2011 by waysider

[tonyzamboni]

So you are a critical thinker and I am not, Okay. But you are so funny Waysider! It is strange that you seem so bent on changing my way of thinking. Sorry but I am born again and nothing will ever change that and besides I have proof because of all the miracles I have seen and answers to prayer and it is not only scriptural proof but also the signs miracles and wonders that have followed me because I believe. You will never take that away from me no never. Sorry if I just made you think of VPW again it must be rough for you. :)

Thank you Socks for that sharing. :)

P.S.

Sorry if I have gotten a little defensive but sometimes I have felt a little under attack but I know you all mean well but I'm on my way to heaven and I shall not be moved! :)

Edited May 1, 2011 by tonyzamboni

[waysider]

So you are a critical thinker and I am not, Okay suit yourself. It is strange that you seem so bent on changing my way of thinking. Sorry I am born again and nothing will ever change that and besides I have proof because of all the miracles I have seen and answers to prayer and it is not only scriptural proof but also the signs miracles and wonders that have followed me because I believe. You will never take that away from me no never. Sorry if I just made you think of VPW again it must be rough for you.

Thank you Socks for that sharing.

I never said you aren't a critical thinker. I simply said that what you displayed in your post is "cherry picking". It can degrade the value of any genuine discussion. That's why it's important to be able to recognize it.

I have no desire to change your opinions regarding the Bible or your spiritual experiences. If you want to engage in any sort of civil discussion, Biblical or non-Biblical, where opinions can and often differ, though, it is helpful to understand the basic guidelines that govern debate and discussion.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about.

You said:

"Sorry if I just made you think of VPW again it must be rough for you."

Nowhere in my post did I ever say anything to that affect. It ignores the statement I presented in order to introduce one that you would prefer to debate instead.

From the link I posted, see if you can identify the logical fallacy that most closely describes this practice.

[tonyzamboni]

I know you never said that I make you think of VPW! It's just that so far everytime I say something that I believe from the Bible you bring up VPW and how I must be thinking in terms of what VP taught us I was being SARCASTIC. I would have thought that a critical thinker could see that. Look. I really don't like talking to you much sorry I responded to you and got into all this.

So, with this poll Socks I guess I should have just clicked yes.

T-Zam (I like that! :) )

Edited May 1, 2011 by tonyzamboni

[excathedra]

i myself became a christian in the roman catholic church even though i am no longer a member

i think they must have given me enough of the word for me to believe it

i'm glad

and when i was lonely and searching for MORE i went to the way

now i feel kind of like the same toward both

but the best thing is somehow i became someone like as in a child of god

ps by the way

jesus christ / god found me

i'm very very thankful and don't feel worthy but i'm guessing i'm not :) lol

--

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--

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if i told you how much pain priests have caused my family and how much pain wierwille has caused me, fagetitaboutit

i come from a family of priests and nuns (really screwed up people -- so sad)

---

what i'm trying to say it has never tainted me or my true feelings and belief toward god and my savior

do you see what i mean?

when i say "they" gave me enough of the word for me to believe it

i guess that holds true for anyone any church and any cult

but the thanks be to god through our lord jesus christ -- not the church cult

you know?

[excathedra]

ohmygod now that i'm on a roll..........

i don't think i believe you're a better or worse christian if you do or don't diss vp or the catholic church, or whatev....

lol

[socks]

Illustriously illuminating discussion! I'm sure everyone is learning. A lot. I know I am. In fact, I've been negligent in not having given an opportunity for everyone to share of their abundance of which it seems we have so much! Clearly there is a need to be relieved of the burden of appearing ostentatious in our 'bundance! Briefly now so as not to disturb the flow, the plate passes....yes, let me start. There. and now each in their turn. Yes. And the card reader is working and ready so as to make it as easy as possible for everyone, yes - you're welcome.,,..keep swiping, keep swiping. Yes. Good. There! Thank you, much better. Remember to pick up the Tax form 511.A.112 before you leave and for today only - Easter Bunny BobbleHeads! (we over ordered and need to move these out so take two!)

I like the "incorruptible" versage, TonyZ. It's a kind of negative on a positive word idea thing - "not perishable".

"i think they must have given me enough of the word for me to believe it"

How's that go in Matthew - keep knocking and the door will be opened? (socks standard abridged revised authorized version)

[leafytwiglet]

Wow... Interesting discussion...

I always learn so much when I come here, and read everyones different perspectives.

For me.. Well I probably am just a simpleton... I do not pretend to understand the scriptures anymore or even when i was in TWI.. What I do know is that when I was a child I believed in God I was raised to believe in God..

But that did not really make me what I would call a Christian. It just means that I came to the process already believing there was a God, and there was a Jesus Christ.

I do know that I was and am a sinner... I am a Christian because God had mercy on my soul.

For me it was the realization and acceptance that God forgave me my sins.. That Christ died and was raised from the dead and that because of that I could ask for forgivness and God would forgive me. IT happened to me in one evening when I was watching a presentation of the crucifiction, I finally understood that GOd forgave me no matter what I had done before and that I needed to change what I was doing... and try to follow Christs example.

I know to most of you it is a very simplistic view and probably doesn't even come close to any reality of what may or may not be in the scriptures... But it was for me an epithany, a moment of clarity, and I changed from that day forward... am i perfect no... but I am definately a different person.. and this happened long before I had ever heard of TWI.

[socks]

Thank you Leafy One!

It sounds like you've hit on the crux of Christianity - if it isn't Christ - what is it then? :) Right? Without a personal, real understanding of what Jesus Christ is to you it may be nothing more than a mental discipline, a set of mechanics that in and of themselves are good but that don't bring us to any one, single point of reality. And reality is where it's at. Thanks!

[excathedra]

i get it leafy

it is simple

if it wasn't, where would i be?

ps. i can't stand churches cults that's just me

but never ever had / have a problem with god and my savior :) i feel lucky

[excathedra]

why does it say i'm responding on here when i haven't

[waysider]

It's cosmic voodoo! BwaaHaha!

[Twinky]

Will we be gathered together? Will we stay here?

Do we SIT? Do we think it's all nonsense?

Is Jesus God? Or just a man?

To some extent - none of this matters. It really doesn't.

What will happen, will happen. Regardless of what we believe.

We can get so hung up on intellectual arguments, straining at gnats, knowing this or that Greek word.

God's "gnat strainer" is finer, tighter meshed, than anything we can construct.

It also has bigger holes in it.

God doesn't look at our knowledge. He doesn't look at our vocabulary. He doesn't look at our argumentative ability, or our logic, or our reasoning powers.

He looks on our hearts. He looks on what we do and say that comes from the heart. He looks at how we treat Him, how we treat others. He looks at the things that are good in our hearts - and the things that are not so good - and teaches us how to overcome or get rid of the bad stuff, like pride, arrogance, and so on.

If we bore some basic tenets about God in mind - that he is good always - that he has compassion on all - that he is the Creator and not a magician or worse a magic toy - and if we remembered that Jesus is the embodiment of God's love to us and exemplifies it and sets the standard in heart that we should follow - then so much falls away.

It's nice to know intellectual things in our heads (and trust me, I have a great selection of Bibles and study books). We grope after intellectual understanding - but if we don't know, really know, in our hearts - we know nothing.

[Ham]

The only thing that man learns from history is that mankind is incapable of learning from history.

don't speak for all of us.

:)

the last lifetime..

maybe I shouldn't say.

the last lifetime..

I was an opportunist..

now I seek to rebuild. Will it happen? There is at least one human soul which agrees with me..

[Ham]

It's cosmic voodoo! BwaaHaha!

Cosmic voodo is the best..