Your response is requested!

[socks]

Hi WG! Thanks. I don't believe it's closed, I just jumped the gun and tallied up the count but as far as I know you can still use it. Feel free! And thanks for your post...... " I believe that if individuals who call themselves by His Name will seek Him diligently and have a personal relationship with Him their lives will change in ways they never dreamed of. " :)

Interesting point sudo. On the one hand it's not a surprise but on another it is. This being a very general kind of poll the numbers won't yield a specific set of hmm, postulates. But it's an interesting result. I was curious how such a poll would render out. On face value the numbers speak for themselves.

This poll is pretty loose and isn't designed to try and sort out everything obviously. (but anyone's welcome to put the dial to Sort if that's what's on their mind, no problem.)

I've editorialized a little (!) in my posts to voice my own opinion. To focus briefly on geisha's comments there is still the question - what is it to be a Christian? In other words, can a faith that identifies so specifically with two things - God and Jesus Christ - be everything or anything that a person wants it to be and when we have some source material (the Bible) that most would identify as essential? (and that's a whole 'nother topic here I know).

Just thinkin' out loud. johniam, that's about what I was thinkin' for what it's worth. Not everyone was up to what Jesus taught and instructed in the gospels, that's clear. Within the framework of His day and time however people weren't excluded or given the cheap seats arbitrarily. Even non-Jewish Gentiles were able to approach Him and have access when they had recognition, though limited, of who He was and who they were. All mankind needed Jesus Christ and He was present for all who would come to Him.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

I think perhaps the vote mechanism is closed as I am not able to utilize it so I will answer the poll here:

I am a Christian. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, borne of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried. I believe that on the third day He arose from the dead, appeared to the disciples and others, and ascended into heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God the Father. I believe He is coming to earth again in due time and will judge the quick and the dead.

I do not believe churches or philosophies matter. I believe that if individuals who call themselves by His Name will seek Him diligently and have a personal relationship with Him their lives will change in ways they never dreamed of.

paraphrasing the Apostles Creed

[socks]

cman - a number of religious affliliations and beliefs are listed as part of this survey, from the "Religion in America" report. (not sure of the validity of this data but it's out there at any rate). adherents.com has quite a bit of statistical information, to say the least. Lots of religious beliefs out there, and a lot that make the lists every time it seems.

There's a lot of data there but I have never felt completely comfortable with a lot of statistics because I can't validate how they're gathered and the sampling that's used. Surveys can be time consuming and expensive and especially today there's a level of paranoia about answering questions that will go on record somewhere (Facebook notwithstanding). Still, like the old joke about credit card "security" that observes we can't be that concerned if we'll give our credit card to a total stranger in a restaurant and let them take it for 10 minutes - I guess we choose what and where we trust our information...but in most cases it can be difficult.if not a little loosey goosey.

I'd been thinking about this survey for a long time and I had several versions, couplea real spanky ones that were so big they would have formed 2 or 3 surveys to cover all the ground the way that I, socks, had ingeniously worked them out. It looked stupid though on paper, to be honest. Even I wouldn't have participated after putting it up.

Finally though it seemed that on face value the simplest way to get a simple answer would be to ask a simple question that could be answered yes or no, and then allow for all of the other possiblities in a 3rd choice.

Thanks again folks! Be sure to pick up your "I Was Surveyed And I Didn't Even Get A T-Shirt" virtual arm band at the table!

[socks]

sudo, I did some further fiddling with the numbers, and although I hesitate to put much cred' in this we do have the sampling qualified here as being those who have had or currently have some association with The Way, loosely defined as participating members -

If the total yes/no = 44 (currently) and the no's = 8 (currently) it's at 5.5 % -

If the total responses = 47 and the no's = 8 it's at around 5.9 %, rounded up.

wikipedia has some related information, broken out: HERE

I think by these responses here the percentages are actually lower then these. (although wiki quote a wide range in their numbers throughout the entire article)

[geisha779]

Just thinkin' out loud. johniam, that's about what I was thinkin' for what it's worth. Not everyone was up to what Jesus taught and instructed in the gospels, that's clear. Within the framework of His day and time however people weren't excluded or given the cheap seats arbitrarily. Even non-Jewish Gentiles were able to approach Him and have access when they had recognition, though limited, of who He was and who they were. All mankind needed Jesus Christ and He was present for all who would come to Him.

They were not excluded arbitrarily, but they were excluded. I pointed out that there were no definitions in your poll because you made a sweeping judgment and generalization about how Jesus ended up with a bunch of followers who spend most of their time finding ways to exclude people and a statement about Jesus running a shop that catered to anyone anytime.

Jesus spoke in parables. When His disciples asked Him why....He basically said...because this is for you....not for them. I speak in parables so they won't understand me and I won't have to heal them. I would examine His mercy in this, but this is not the doctrinal section, or a Christian site, and that is a deep faith discussion.

Jesus also told His disciples not to cast their pearls before swine and not to give that which is holy to dogs lest they turn around and tear you apart.

Dogs and swine? Can you imagine hearing that today? How would you respond?

Jesus excluded a whole bunch of people and the things of Christ ....possibly..... they belong to Christians?

As a Christian, would you go to a Mosque and expect to fully partake of their faith? If they don't allow you to, do you consider them exclusionary or elitist? You can fully participate if you confess and believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet. They have 5 pillars of faith.

I had enough sweeping generalizations about how horrible Christians are when I was in TWI. I guess I just don't expect it anymore from those who call themselves brethren.

[waysider]

I had enough sweeping generalizations about how horrible Christians are when I was in TWI. I guess I just don't expect it anymore from those who call themselves brethren.

Who's been talking about "how horrible Christians are"? I'm sorry, but, I just don't really see that in this thread.

[Watered Garden]

Yes, I did indeed paraphrase the Apostles' Creed. It was fairly succinct and I added some thoughts of my own.

Socks, all I see at the top is the poll results. That's okay, though.

And then there are "Christian" churches who exclude women from fully sharing, who exclude anyone who is not in complete agreement with their teachings from the faith or exclude most Christians from heaven on some man's formula or other (TULIP comes to mind here).

If Christians could see that the Body of Christ is bigger and more important then their church, their creed, their race, their politics, their nationality, that the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead, that would be Christianity in action. I attend a church but I will never belong to another religious organization.

Okay, this is probably off topic. Sorry.

[chockfull]

If Christians could see that the Body of Christ is bigger and more important then their church, their creed, their race, their politics, their nationality, that the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead, that would be Christianity in action. I attend a church but I will never belong to another religious organization.

I agree - that doesn't dilute Christ's orignal purpose in message - an invitation to all.

Jesus in all of his teachings did present a paradox. On one hand he was asking those without sin to throw the first stone at the prostitute. On the other he was asking a rich ruler to give up all his wealth to follow him, and teaching that the path is narrow.

Of course, mankind is the problem with this, and inevitably finds ways to screw it up. From the false "Christian" just belonging to groups to use others and self gratify, to the false "Christian organization" ruling with a heavy hand, straining at gnats and swallowing camels and kicking people out, the flesh is indeed weak.

[Watered Garden]

The irony was - He was without sin and could have cast the first stone, but chose not to.

[Bolshevik]

. . .

I think by these responses here the percentages are actually lower then these. (although wiki quote a wide range in their numbers throughout the entire article)

It's generally an older crowd here . . . if you found data based on age groups it might line up better . . . if that's at all of interest

[mstar1]

They were not excluded arbitrarily, but they were excluded.

This is why I answer the way that i do...Im the first to admit i dont know if I meet the criteria or I don't. Im not even really sure what the criteria is...there seem to be so many different takes on it.

I do know that over the years I have heard many more arguments against my inclusion than for it.

[WordWolf]

(snip)

If Christians could see that the Body of Christ is bigger and more important then their church, their creed, their race, their politics, their nationality, that the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead, that would be Christianity in action.

(snip)

I've seen Christians accept that here and there. To see it on a bigger scale will probably

require the personal presence OF Christ, face to face.

[geisha779]

This is why I answer the way that i do...Im the first to admit i dont know if I meet the criteria or I don't. Im not even really sure what the criteria is...there seem to be so many different takes on it.

I do know that over the years I have heard many more arguments against my inclusion than for it.

Well, you are a person who I don't worry about. :) Here is the thing with those whom Jesus excluded....they were the ones that ended up demanding that an innocent man be put to death and a guilty man go free. Jesus was not guilty of any crime. Yet, the dogs and swine demanded His crucifixion. I think that is an apt choice of words because if He was telling the truth, they crucified the Son of God...if He was lying....considering the things He claimed and believed about Himself....at the least....they crucified someone for being mentally ill.

I cannot imagine you in a crowd baying for blood....but, I can picture you at the foot of the cross mourning an innocent man.

Edited April 27, 2011 by geisha779

[mstar1]

I cannot imagine you in a crowd baying for blood.

You never saw me at a Bruins game when I was young...

[geisha779]

You never saw me at a Bruins game when I was young...

HA! Even now at a Sox v Yankess game, I have been known to scream for blood....but then again...they are not so innocent.

__________________________________________________________________

I find this topic a bit ironic.

Jesus gave His followers a particularly chilling warning when He said ....."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

That is actually the opposite of . . . the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead. . . isn't it?

He is speaking about people who did things in His name...so they must be people who claim His name? No? Many things are done in His name. The Crusades spring to mind. The Inquisition? LEAD maybe? Sexually abusing women and telling them it is okay as long as it is done with the love of God.

The chilling part of this verse to me is that it is then He will tell them plainly.....why not tell them plainly now? He is capable of saving anyone. Those He denies in this scenario seem genuinely confused and Jesus doesn't seem contrite about it.

Jesus said..."But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." How many of the throngs that followed Him were standing there at the end of it all? Very few.

I think the body of Christ is just fine...I have faith in the good head it has on its shoulders...maybe it is just smaller than some imagine it to be. The head directs the body...if you have a problem with the direction of the body and claim to be a member...why not take it up with the head? There may be more to it than the way we think it should function. It is a building up in Christ for God's glory...its ultimate purpose is God's purpose, not who we think it should include, how we think it should be run, or what cultural issues we think it should be tackling. The way it sounds from some here....Jesus is a serious slacker and a lousy head.

Edited April 27, 2011 by geisha779

[johniam]

quote:

Jesus gave His followers a particularly chilling warning when He said ....."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

That is actually the opposite of . . . the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead. . . isn't it?

The great mystery had not yet been revealed when Jesus said that stuff. That would be the one body of Christ. THAT great mystery. The one that had not been revealed to the sons of men. That includes Jesus. Remember, God was baiting a trap for the devil. He took the bait, too.

[waysider]

I'm not sure I ever really understood this concept of "baiting a trap for the devil". Can you elaborate?

[mstar1]

Jesus said..."But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." How many of the throngs that followed Him were standing there at the end of it all? Very few.

I dont want to further complicate Socks thread but since I got the remnants of TWI teachings from my head I now really think that nothing is guaranteed (hence my previous answer) there are just too many biblical warnings similar to that to overlook, take for granted or discard lightly.

I heard a chilling song today written in 1707 by Isaac Watts in the Sacred Harp singing style that illustrates that point

Windham

Broad is the road that leads to death,

and thousands walk together there;

But wisdom shows a narrow path,

with here and there a traveler.

"Deny thyself and take thy cross,"

Is the Redeemers great command,

nature must count her gold but dross,

if she would gain this heavenly land.

The fearful soul that tires and faints,

and walks the way of God no more

Is but esteemed almost a saint

and makes his own destruction sure

Lord, let not all my hopes be vain

Create my heart entirely new,

Which hypocrites can ne'er attain,

Which false apostates never knew.

[Ham]

why do apostates always have to be false..

[waysider]

why do apostates always have to be false..

Because it makes it so much more convenient to loathe them.

[Broken Arrow]

why do apostates always have to be false..

Because if they aren't false they aren't apostates.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[socks]

No problemo mstar. Thanks for the post! I appreciate all the input and thought here. Thanks again.

[geisha779]

Mstar said.....

I dont want to further complicate Socks thread but since I got the remnants of TWI teachings from my head I now really think that nothing is guaranteed (hence my previous answer) there are just too many biblical warnings similar to that to overlook, take for granted or discard lightly.

I am with Mark Twain on this one...."Most people are bothered by the passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand."

Edited April 28, 2011 by geisha779

[mstar1]

why do apostates always have to be false..

It does seem a little redundant...in the case of the song it had to fit in with the meter of the melody and poetically fits better than true apostates.

False apostates does sound like people who arent really apostates though... <_<

I know Im a 'genuine' TWI apostate, Ive left them and renounced most of the doctrines they hold...Im the real deal, a 'true' one. I don't dispute it.

I guess 'false' connects more on emotion, feel and poetical content than on analytical reason and scrutiny

One too many syllables in the tune that had to be filled up with something and the exercise of just a tad of Poetic license...

[mstar1]

I am with Mark Twain on this one...."Most people are bothered by the passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand."

I was going to put up the chuckling laughing emoticon because its true, insightful and worded very cleverly and humorously -- BUT the more I thought about it, its really no laughing matter--it does bother me