but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do? my "beliefs" are insane. I don't care if people label them yes, or no.. or nutty. Or if they agree.. I tend to support the idea of reincarnation. Is it right, or is it wrong?
If I can wake up with everything in the wrong place once, what guarantees that it won't happen again? I just can't take it all that seriously.. I dunno. I'm intolerant, even as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned..
maybe, I'm just really, really screwed up here..
why have stability, when one can have all of "this" and more..
stability is really over-rated.
If I just woke up one day to find everything I believed was wrong? I would take it seriously and examine why I now believed that way. I take matters of life and faith seriously. Not only my own life but the lives of others have value to me. I would hope that a person invests in a worldview after serious questions, study, thought and self-examination and not just from some indefinable experience. Experiences can have many different explanations. Didn't we all just believe VP had an experience and place a great deal of faith in that event without some serious thought? Snow on the gas pumps? Why would I do that again without really thinking it through?
If I don't take what I believe seriously enough to define, defend, or really understand it....I wouldn't expect others to do the same...I would not even expect God Almighty to take me seriously. I respect God. Yes Ham, after careful examination and thought I did find that everything I believed was wrong. Not only that, I found that everything I once embraced actually opposed what I thought I was serving. How is that for a Zen riddle? So, I do understand your question.....and.....what happened is...this time I paid attention.
I invested over 6 years of my life learning how to examine evidence, question circumstances, why to trust evidence and what conclusions I could reliably draw. I was held accountable by people who are experts at what they do. I had to defend my work just like you do now. Taking an opposing position with supposition before really understanding the position I am opposing? How far is that going to get me? How much respect should we invest in that approach?
We were in an anti-christian cult. We opposed Christianity in TWI by embracing the polar opposite of Christian tenets, doctrines, beliefs and theology. We tried to redefine Christianity to make it palatable to what we would accept instead of accepting that which has already been defined. It seems to me, some people have just made a sideways move. I find the same mocking tone here that we had in TWI. I find the same surface examination in some posters conclusions that we embraced in TWI. Some people have not changed their approach to issues of faith.....they have just adopted a new way of opposing something they don't really understand. If that is what they want and are satisfied with it...it is their choice. Let's not pretend it is not the same intolerance many of us had to Christianity in TWI.
What is really a bit sad is that it appears TWI theology is going to be the only real defined belief system in some peoples lives. If that is the case, a pertinent question might be.....why do we really keep it alive day after day and twenty years later? Is speaking against something really enough of a faith for us? Is it a guise? If someone really wants to talk about the importance of life in the here and now.....it seems an honest place to begin.
I hear what you're saying, Geisha. We were taught to be anti-mainstream Christianity while we were in TWI, and now we're being anti-TWI.
I just don't hear that in what everyone posts. This is essentially an anti-TWI site, so of course you will hear anti-TWI stories and opinions. And there have been a few who express that they pretty much go from day to day without an over-arching belief system. But many others have written about very definite belief systems and why they have adopted them: various Christian denominations, Judaism, paganism, or none of the above.
I also have heard heartfelt stories on Greasespot of people doing amazing things for others. Their actions are telling you what their beliefs are -- no, not beliefs in the resurrection necessarily, but beliefs in love, service, work without expectation of reward, forgiveness, etc.
And isn't that what sickened us the most about TWI -- the hypocrisy? I can bet there are a few hermits among us. But if half of what I've read is true, there are also a lot of people writing for a short time on a website, but the rest of the time going out and doing, trying to be the kinds of people we had wanted to learn to be through TWI.
So Waysider, to answer your question...
I know longer think that "I know that I know," but I hope there is something after. I try to make a difference in the world just because it helps, not because I want a "crown." So yeah, if Christianity had only been about the Golden Rule, and Jesus had been a great guy who died of natural causes, I still would be following His precepts.
I no longer think that "I know that I know," but I hope there is something after. I try to make a difference in the world just because it helps, not because I want a "crown." So yeah, if Christianity had only been about the Golden Rule, and Jesus had been a great guy who died of natural causes, I still would be following His precepts.
Shaz
Thank you.
You managed to nail down my point in just three short sentences.
but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?
That doesn't ever happen in a moment, does it? Reminds me of my first acid trip. I was high and I had this new perspective on life and I understood what was REALLY going on and it was going to change history and so I wrote it all down and then....I slept. Dog gone it. I woke up and read what I had written down. Didn't make sense anymore. Other than that, I never had a major change in my outlook on ANYTHING that didn't require much time and thinking.
quote:
It must have been in about 1976,77,78...not sure... a group of Way Corps stayed with FellowLaborers one weekend on their way to some work assignment. They were all fired up about some new teaching that was being done for the Corps about eternal rewards and crowns or trophies at the Bema or some such thing. They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out, especially because no one else seemed to be bothered by it. I had never thought of it that way before. To my thinking, up to that point, you gave of yourself because it was what you chose in your heart to do. Doing the "right" thing, simply because you perceived it to be the right thing, not because you expected remuneration. In fact, my Mother, whom some of you knew personally, taught us when we were little kids, that to give because you expected something in return was a form of selfishness. I mean, isn't that why we all joined together for the FellowLaborer experience? Apparently not! That was a shocker.
Jesus spoke of service, but he also spoke of rewards. In Matt. 19:27 Peter said behold we have forsaken all and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? Jesus then spoke of his disciples sitting on thrones judging the 12 tribes, and he spoke of receiving an hundredfold (houses, family, lands, etc.) and inheriting eternal life. Sure, the attitude of service is there, but so is the anticipation of rewards. They're both in the mix, right? Haven't you ever been working at a job and thought about what you would do with your next paycheck? I have.
Sometimes we deal with other people, get let down, and think that God is no different than people. That God is just some corporate big shot in the sky who doesn't have time for "nobodys" like us. Remember that God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love. Both in twi and beyond. VP may have started twi, but he did NOT act as a "broker" for anyone's rewards. That was just you and God. Believe it!
I hear what you're saying, Geisha. We were taught to be anti-mainstream Christianity while we were in TWI, and now we're being anti-TWI.
I just don't hear that in what everyone posts. This is essentially an anti-TWI site, so of course you will hear anti-TWI stories and opinions. And there have been a few who express that they pretty much go from day to day without an over-arching belief system. But many others have written about very definite belief systems and why they have adopted them: various Christian denominations, Judaism, paganism, or none of the above.
I also have heard heartfelt stories on Greasespot of people doing amazing things for others. Their actions are telling you what their beliefs are -- no, not beliefs in the resurrection necessarily, but beliefs in love, service, work without expectation of reward, forgiveness, etc.
And isn't that what sickened us the most about TWI -- the hypocrisy? I can bet there are a few hermits among us. But if half of what I've read is true, there are also a lot of people writing for a short time on a website, but the rest of the time going out and doing, trying to be the kinds of people we had wanted to learn to be through TWI.
So Waysider, to answer your question...
I know longer think that "I know that I know," but I hope there is something after. I try to make a difference in the world just because it helps, not because I want a "crown." So yeah, if Christianity had only been about the Golden Rule, and Jesus had been a great guy who died of natural causes, I still would be following His precepts.
Shaz
I wasn't really talking about people who oppose TWI, but people who are still anti-Christian without really understanding what Christianity is about. Look at the question posed in this thread....you cannot separate life from Christianity...it is eternal life, not an after-life. Christianity contends that everyone gets an eternity....not everyone will make a free-will choice to have eternal life. Don't Christians believe that life is something different than what we have while we are still dead in trespass and sin? We believe this time is when we choose what we will serve? Annihilationism is a controversial belief that is fairly relegated to a minority. That minority is usually classified for good reason. What they conclude changes their entire theology. I don't even think Christianity is about doing good and bad for reward.....that is a TWI belief....Christians toss our crowns for another reason entirely.
I am anti-twi...or what I believe stands opposed to what they believe and I think it is a harmful organization. If it was just some faith that believed differently than me...I wouldn't say a word, but I have had enough experience and understand enough about them and what they claim as faith...that I feel confident in challenging that. I don't even believe that the people in TWI are the enemy. That also comes from my faith.
You can't take a few things Jesus said and build a belief on them. They are all intertwined. There is a distinct message in the gospel. I just think it cheapens a rich and abiding faith to pose supposition to a partial message.....trivialize it. It is beneath all of us. Some atheists are far better people than some Christians.....that is not what it is about.
I know there are good people here. I have made some great friends. :) They don't come here anymore. Not because they have moved on....have no interest in interacting......or no desire to reach out. They don't come because of the tenor this forum can take towards Christians.
It would just be nice if people extended as much tolerance to Christians as they demand from them.
I know there are wonderful people who come and go here...wonderful and very special people.
Sorry Waysider that my answer is not short enough for you...guess you will just have to tolerate it until I get banned. I don't like the idea of limiting someones voice. Be it subtle or overt.
Jesus spoke of service, but he also spoke of rewards. In Matt. 19:27 Peter said behold we have forsaken all and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? Jesus then spoke of his disciples sitting on thrones judging the 12 tribes, and he spoke of receiving an hundredfold (houses, family, lands, etc.) and inheriting eternal life. Sure, the attitude of service is there, but so is the anticipation of rewards. They're both in the mix, right?
Both in the mix right. But what's the focus? Are you doing what your doing out of greed (wanting greater and greater rewards) and possibly ego (I worked for my rewards harder than you did) or out of love (as God orders us to).
quote: Both in the mix right. But what's the focus? Are you doing what your doing out of greed (wanting greater and greater rewards) and possibly ego (I worked for my rewards harder than you did) or out of love (as God orders us to).
Just because YOU do things out of greed and ego doesn't mean I do. Orders? Hmm. For God so loved the world that He ordered His only begotten son....charity is kind, and that's an ORDER! Doesn't seem to fit. Sounds like grudgingly and of necessity to me. Was THAT your attitude in twi?
quote: Both in the mix right. But what's the focus? Are you doing what your doing out of greed (wanting greater and greater rewards) and possibly ego (I worked for my rewards harder than you did) or out of love (as God orders us to).
Just because YOU do things out of greed and ego doesn't mean I do.
Another strawman argument. Did I say you? As Shakespeare said, "Methinks thouist protests too much." What's up? Guilty conscious?
And I will concede: I made an error. It shouldn't be "As God ordered us to" it should be "As God commanded us to"
Two commandments remember: Love God, Love your neighbor. (Matt. 22:37-40):
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Hmmm. Commandment. Because God so loved the world He commanded his only begotten son...doesn't work either, yet gee, that's what he wrote in the book. Charity is kind, and that's commanded.. hey, I'm trying my best to use your logic, Johniam, but it keeps breaking down. But then thats what happens when you try to make facts fit preconcieved notions, rather than looking at the facts objectively and then developing opinions from out of the facts.
Also, here's command's definition in its verbal form:
Sorry Waysider that my answer is not short enough for you...guess you will just have to tolerate it until I get banned. I don't like the idea of limiting someones voice. Be it subtle or overt.
Who said your answer was not "short enough" for me? I never said that. No one is trying to ban you or limit your voice.
I will say this, though. I think you have misinterpreted my question. I didn't ask if anyone believed in an afterlife. (I'm intentionally using the generic term because the general essence is understood by a diverse cross section of faiths and beliefs.) I asked what impact it would have if an afterlife was not included in the Christian package. I think we can extend that question to generally include other faiths that may be represented here. Your answer was that it would have a major impact for you. Then, you went on to explain why you felt that way. That's all I really asked for. There is no right or wrong answer. I'm not asking if there is an afterlife. I'm asking how the concept affects you. Do you see the difference? By "Sunday School" I mean proselytizing. It's just that simple. You don't have to"convince me" why you feel the way you do or win me over to your opinion. (ie: proselytize)
On those ideas generally, and in relation to the future of life....
Greed - wanting in excess (definition somewhat fuzzy there I've noticed in most sources - usually requires some extra tagging to identify "greed") Greed is often associated with an "I-win-you-lose" scenario, where other outcomes can be sacrificed at the expense of another)
Ego - everyone's got it. Self identification is normal, if someone doesn't have it they probably don't know they're reading this or weirder, may think someone else is - although I've read of those kinds of brain "disorders")
Christianity is identified with "selfless" love and actions, etc. where the outcome doesn't depend on the initiator getting a benefit from what they do. People do this all the time though I think - I breathe, need to breathe and normally don't consider that it's pretty much for only my own benefit that I do. I don't breathe selflessly for the benefit of others that I might do something for them, I just breathe. Most of the time I don't choose to or not to - I just do it.
I see life - and what Christianity terms "eternal life" as something similar. Life as we now know it doesn't come as a result of a self-initiated determination. Other religious concepts like karma show cause and effect but not self-execution. Life begins and continues, cycles and continues. Life itself doesn't decide to start or to end and it appears that's true in all instances of anything that's "alive". No "life" constructs itself or destructs itself of it's own internal processes.
IOW - the "battery" as we now know it may have an expiration date but it doesn't determine that or execute that.
As far as we know. And that's part of the issue here IMO - life can be defined in many ways but whether it's "spiritual" or a bio-chem-electro process in action it' doesn't appear to contain the steps that start and end - itself.
There's a consistency to that in all examples I know of that implies design and intent. Purpose.
Much debated that, I know - but when I've stepped back and disconnected from any expectation or realization of what I know as "life" and that state of awareness that I am, the trees all make a forest as it were. The similarities are astounding in this regard - diverse yes but very similar in ways.
I can spin off into what I don't know and how can I know what I don't and what if it's all not what I knew before I has that last drink - I still end up waking up the next day and brushing my teeth. Nothing completely different ever shows up and suddenly we're all really salt crystals in a Bright Overlord of Orion's condiment rack.. Maybe it will. When it does I'll be sure to post it here, if that's possible. If not - you're on your own, sorry.
So I see the battery thingie as having an inherent profile to it that goes to the human understanding of what we could call an "after life" but for my brain is better termed "continuance". It seems fairly logical and to be expected.
"I am come that you might have life and have it in abundance".
That could mean a lot of things. "Time" is likely one of them, although I'm not suggesting it's a list of stuff I get. Rather a quality of life that's full and realized.
In some future "heavenly" scenario religious theological postulations imagine a state of blissful oneness where everyone drifts around lost in the wonder of it all, no thought for themselves.
That may be what it's actually like I get a little dizzy at the sight of a decent sunset at the beach and suspend other interests and desires.
But eternity's a long time and I'd suspect that sooner or later - well, I don't really know obviously. The state of mind could be such that memories are self-sustaining or perhaps not even accumulated the same way I do now. Maybe there'll be nothing to remember that's different than what I am experiencing at that moment. Dunno.
But I get the sense that then as now, self-awareness will be intact and the realization of justice and righteousness will be clear, making cause and effect less serendipitous in it's vast and many permutations and more understood.
but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?
my "beliefs" are insane.
I don't care if people label them yes, or no.. or nutty. Or if they agree.. I tend to support the idea of reincarnation. Is it right, or is it wrong?
If I can wake up with everything in the wrong place once, what guarantees that it won't happen again?
I just can't take it all that seriously..
I dunno. I'm intolerant, even as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned..
maybe, I'm just really, really screwed up here..
why have stability, when one can have all of "this" and more..
stability is really over-rated.
You've asked this on several occassions and I always answer that if I woke up one day and realized everything I believed was wrong, I would go "oops!", and then continue on my journey. It is not an earth-shattering event for me to be wrong. Believe it or not, it's happened before. I think some may believe I'm joking when I say this, which in a way I am, but I'm also serious. I'd rather be wrong than apathetic, seriously. At least if one is wrong they're looking past the material world and trying to find some meaning. To be apathetic though is a wasted life, at least in my opinion. I mean, what is there to look forward to if one is apathetic? Supper?
The "wrong" thing is interesting too. "Everything".
If everything was something else how would I know it? If I'm not even me what would I realize I was? Would I know who I'd thought I'd was?
Everything can't be something else - something would have to remain constant as a reference point I'd think otherwise we wouldn't be cognizant of a change. It would be a moot point.
IMO there's far more consistency in the chaos of life than we give credit for. Everything else can change - as long as I recognize it though everything didn't - which may be a reverse way of dealing with cognitive processes but in difficult times it's a rock in a storm.
Christianity is a distinct faith....as is Islam and Judaism.... Buddhism etc...I don't think there is a narrow corridor for a generic reference to an "afterlife" unless we want to trivialize each faith. I don't know enough about other faiths to apply a generic reference to any of it.
Christian scripture is replete with specific transformation which results from the indwelling of the HS (who is eternal). If you take that away....it is just people trying to be good according to a few commands I guess? Trying to be good and becoming good are two different things.
History is replete with people transformed by the Christian faith.....but, there are people who are transformed to good and people who are just plain bad in this world...good without any faith, bad with faith. Anyone can try to be good.... No? You really don't need Jesus to tell you that. That is not why He came.
What Jesus said about loving your neighbor? Not a new or a revolutionary concept and there were many Jewish wisdom teachers around at that time saying the same thing.
Jesus said many things...He said love your neighbor, He said take care of people...He told people to be good and then He turned around and said there wasn't anyone who was good but God?
He called people dogs under the table.....He said people could lick the crumbs!! He called some people fools...He hung out with the outcasts and criminals....He told His people not to worry about food or clothing....the guy didn't have anywhere to live.
He told people not to judge and then He said to judge rightly. Which is it?
He said let the dead bury their own. He told one guy to go sell everything he owned and give it all away. He told people to pluck out their eye, cut off their hand.......He said, where I am going you can't know, and a little while later He said...why don't you ask where I am going?
He spoke of caring for the poor and then He said the poor will always be around. He chastised people for not having enough faith and then He spoke of faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains.
So which part is the package we hang onto?
If you take the things about eternity out of the mix....good luck figuring out much of what He was talking about.
Wrong with dire consequences--how many church doctrines teach that? Our way is right or you are Wrong. The one I was raised in, also the one I chose in my younger days. Purgatory, hell, oblivion (plus devil spirits while alive and 'What about your children?')
Gack. I realized I was sick of fear motivation a decade ago. Actually I was sick of it long before the realization. I think I was free from fear for a month or two when I took PFAL--that was how long it took for the rest of the story to start to sift on down...different fears, but still fears of being wrong.
Thanks, Waysider for a thought provoking topic; I recently found this thread thru a link provided by you on another thread (The Way we were? started by Jim Jack)…great thread - I enjoyed the variety of responses…you weren’t kidding when you said it was quite animated.
seemed like vpw and other top leaders used an overly concerned look to the future life as the reason to burn out in this life – hurry to events, there is nothing more important than “moving the word”, spend your money on ministry stuff, classes, events…whatever…don’t think about retirement or health insurance…honestly, such a fixation on heaven can render one of little use on earth.
After leaving TWI and periodically re-evaluating a lot of things I’ve figured out an approach to life that works for me. It goes along the lines of often seeking a…I don’t know…harmony…or synthesis between reality and religion. I’ve gotten a lot more open-minded over the years and perhaps some of that is evident here. I don’t get hung up in trying to figure out cosmic issues, theological issues…whatever. Belief systems are like mass transit – there are a number of ways to get around in life – but it all depends on where you want to go and what type of experience you want to have in route….and as long as it doesn’t require exact change – gawd I hate that!
Besides having a hope of Jesus Christ's return - there are still several distinct possibilities in the back of my mind of how life will actually pan out: there is no afterlife…or heaven exists but I’m not getting in…or I live on in an old episode of Lost or Fringe in a brief walk-on role as the guy who does not have a clue as to what’s going on. Hey, somebody out there with an Amazon Fire Stick – I’m talking to you – it’s me T-Bone ! Help !!!
Before, during and after TWI I have always been the same person. Reminds me of a joke by some stand-up comic – it’s something like this: what if you had two life-altering experiences. The second life-altering experience changed you back into the boring schlub you were before the first life-altering experience….”glad I don’t get paid for my stories”
…anyway…I’ve always been an easy going live-and-let-live type of person. If there’s nothing beyond the grave I hope I at least earn some kind words on my tombstone like “He was a good husband, dad, friend, and competent technician.” So it took a while of meandering…but to clarify my answer…taking away the afterlife from Christianity is not a deal breaker for me – because I think the big deal about Christianity is love – love for God and my fellowman.Bottom of Form
One more thought…imagine if there was nothing beyond this life – and imagine if everyone held that to be true - maybe that would rivet our attention to the human condition and look for ways we could all help make this present life more bearable.
If there’s nothing beyond the grave I hope I at least earn some kind words on my tombstone like “He was a good husband, dad, friend, and competent technician.”
Seriously? No offense, but IF there's nothing beyond the grave (which is akin to no resurrection, and no Christ) then I actually think I'd prefer to have never lived. Because apart from God and Christ, I honestly just don't see the point of it.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
One more thought…imagine if there was nothing beyond this life – and imagine if everyone held that to be true -
Then I have no doubt that the world would be as it was in the days of Noah.
Seriously? No offense, but IF there's nothing beyond the grave (which is akin to no resurrection, and no Christ) then I actually think I'd prefer to have never lived. Because apart from God and Christ, I honestly just don't see the point of it.
Then I have no doubt that the world would be as it was in the days of Noah.
Those statements reveal much about you, but very little about anything else.
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TLC
If so, it probably stemmed from something LCM was into or working on. Who's thoughts on the matter, by the way, were subsequently challenged by mrs. vpw during one of the research fellowship meetings
Bolshevik
Pascal's Wager Wiki article Recommend book on cult life Quick overview:
DogLover
I go with Paul's sentiments ... if the dead be not raised, let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Thankfully, there is eternal life.
geisha779
If I just woke up one day to find everything I believed was wrong? I would take it seriously and examine why I now believed that way. I take matters of life and faith seriously. Not only my own life but the lives of others have value to me. I would hope that a person invests in a worldview after serious questions, study, thought and self-examination and not just from some indefinable experience. Experiences can have many different explanations. Didn't we all just believe VP had an experience and place a great deal of faith in that event without some serious thought? Snow on the gas pumps? Why would I do that again without really thinking it through?
If I don't take what I believe seriously enough to define, defend, or really understand it....I wouldn't expect others to do the same...I would not even expect God Almighty to take me seriously. I respect God. Yes Ham, after careful examination and thought I did find that everything I believed was wrong. Not only that, I found that everything I once embraced actually opposed what I thought I was serving. How is that for a Zen riddle? So, I do understand your question.....and.....what happened is...this time I paid attention.
I invested over 6 years of my life learning how to examine evidence, question circumstances, why to trust evidence and what conclusions I could reliably draw. I was held accountable by people who are experts at what they do. I had to defend my work just like you do now. Taking an opposing position with supposition before really understanding the position I am opposing? How far is that going to get me? How much respect should we invest in that approach?
We were in an anti-christian cult. We opposed Christianity in TWI by embracing the polar opposite of Christian tenets, doctrines, beliefs and theology. We tried to redefine Christianity to make it palatable to what we would accept instead of accepting that which has already been defined. It seems to me, some people have just made a sideways move. I find the same mocking tone here that we had in TWI. I find the same surface examination in some posters conclusions that we embraced in TWI. Some people have not changed their approach to issues of faith.....they have just adopted a new way of opposing something they don't really understand. If that is what they want and are satisfied with it...it is their choice. Let's not pretend it is not the same intolerance many of us had to Christianity in TWI.
What is really a bit sad is that it appears TWI theology is going to be the only real defined belief system in some peoples lives. If that is the case, a pertinent question might be.....why do we really keep it alive day after day and twenty years later? Is speaking against something really enough of a faith for us? Is it a guise? If someone really wants to talk about the importance of life in the here and now.....it seems an honest place to begin.
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shazdancer
I hear what you're saying, Geisha. We were taught to be anti-mainstream Christianity while we were in TWI, and now we're being anti-TWI.
I just don't hear that in what everyone posts. This is essentially an anti-TWI site, so of course you will hear anti-TWI stories and opinions. And there have been a few who express that they pretty much go from day to day without an over-arching belief system. But many others have written about very definite belief systems and why they have adopted them: various Christian denominations, Judaism, paganism, or none of the above.
I also have heard heartfelt stories on Greasespot of people doing amazing things for others. Their actions are telling you what their beliefs are -- no, not beliefs in the resurrection necessarily, but beliefs in love, service, work without expectation of reward, forgiveness, etc.
And isn't that what sickened us the most about TWI -- the hypocrisy? I can bet there are a few hermits among us. But if half of what I've read is true, there are also a lot of people writing for a short time on a website, but the rest of the time going out and doing, trying to be the kinds of people we had wanted to learn to be through TWI.
So Waysider, to answer your question...
I know longer think that "I know that I know," but I hope there is something after. I try to make a difference in the world just because it helps, not because I want a "crown." So yeah, if Christianity had only been about the Golden Rule, and Jesus had been a great guy who died of natural causes, I still would be following His precepts.
Shaz
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waysider
Thank you.
You managed to nail down my point in just three short sentences.
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johniam
quote:
but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?
That doesn't ever happen in a moment, does it? Reminds me of my first acid trip. I was high and I had this new perspective on life and I understood what was REALLY going on and it was going to change history and so I wrote it all down and then....I slept. Dog gone it. I woke up and read what I had written down. Didn't make sense anymore. Other than that, I never had a major change in my outlook on ANYTHING that didn't require much time and thinking.
quote:
It must have been in about 1976,77,78...not sure... a group of Way Corps stayed with FellowLaborers one weekend on their way to some work assignment. They were all fired up about some new teaching that was being done for the Corps about eternal rewards and crowns or trophies at the Bema or some such thing. They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out, especially because no one else seemed to be bothered by it. I had never thought of it that way before. To my thinking, up to that point, you gave of yourself because it was what you chose in your heart to do. Doing the "right" thing, simply because you perceived it to be the right thing, not because you expected remuneration. In fact, my Mother, whom some of you knew personally, taught us when we were little kids, that to give because you expected something in return was a form of selfishness. I mean, isn't that why we all joined together for the FellowLaborer experience? Apparently not! That was a shocker.
Jesus spoke of service, but he also spoke of rewards. In Matt. 19:27 Peter said behold we have forsaken all and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? Jesus then spoke of his disciples sitting on thrones judging the 12 tribes, and he spoke of receiving an hundredfold (houses, family, lands, etc.) and inheriting eternal life. Sure, the attitude of service is there, but so is the anticipation of rewards. They're both in the mix, right? Haven't you ever been working at a job and thought about what you would do with your next paycheck? I have.
Sometimes we deal with other people, get let down, and think that God is no different than people. That God is just some corporate big shot in the sky who doesn't have time for "nobodys" like us. Remember that God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love. Both in twi and beyond. VP may have started twi, but he did NOT act as a "broker" for anyone's rewards. That was just you and God. Believe it!
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geisha779
I wasn't really talking about people who oppose TWI, but people who are still anti-Christian without really understanding what Christianity is about. Look at the question posed in this thread....you cannot separate life from Christianity...it is eternal life, not an after-life. Christianity contends that everyone gets an eternity....not everyone will make a free-will choice to have eternal life. Don't Christians believe that life is something different than what we have while we are still dead in trespass and sin? We believe this time is when we choose what we will serve? Annihilationism is a controversial belief that is fairly relegated to a minority. That minority is usually classified for good reason. What they conclude changes their entire theology. I don't even think Christianity is about doing good and bad for reward.....that is a TWI belief....Christians toss our crowns for another reason entirely.
I am anti-twi...or what I believe stands opposed to what they believe and I think it is a harmful organization. If it was just some faith that believed differently than me...I wouldn't say a word, but I have had enough experience and understand enough about them and what they claim as faith...that I feel confident in challenging that. I don't even believe that the people in TWI are the enemy. That also comes from my faith.
You can't take a few things Jesus said and build a belief on them. They are all intertwined. There is a distinct message in the gospel. I just think it cheapens a rich and abiding faith to pose supposition to a partial message.....trivialize it. It is beneath all of us. Some atheists are far better people than some Christians.....that is not what it is about.
I know there are good people here. I have made some great friends. :) They don't come here anymore. Not because they have moved on....have no interest in interacting......or no desire to reach out. They don't come because of the tenor this forum can take towards Christians.
It would just be nice if people extended as much tolerance to Christians as they demand from them.
I know there are wonderful people who come and go here...wonderful and very special people.
Sorry Waysider that my answer is not short enough for you...guess you will just have to tolerate it until I get banned. I don't like the idea of limiting someones voice. Be it subtle or overt.
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waysider
I'm sorry you think of serving your fellow man as some sort of "job". That's really kind of sad, in a way.
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So_crates
Both in the mix right. But what's the focus? Are you doing what your doing out of greed (wanting greater and greater rewards) and possibly ego (I worked for my rewards harder than you did) or out of love (as God orders us to).
SoCrates
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geisha779
I have to sit down....this is an amazing and deep point.
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johniam
quote: Both in the mix right. But what's the focus? Are you doing what your doing out of greed (wanting greater and greater rewards) and possibly ego (I worked for my rewards harder than you did) or out of love (as God orders us to).
Just because YOU do things out of greed and ego doesn't mean I do. Orders? Hmm. For God so loved the world that He ordered His only begotten son....charity is kind, and that's an ORDER! Doesn't seem to fit. Sounds like grudgingly and of necessity to me. Was THAT your attitude in twi?
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So_crates
Another strawman argument. Did I say you? As Shakespeare said, "Methinks thouist protests too much." What's up? Guilty conscious?
And I will concede: I made an error. It shouldn't be "As God ordered us to" it should be "As God commanded us to"
Two commandments remember: Love God, Love your neighbor. (Matt. 22:37-40):
Hmmm. Commandment. Because God so loved the world He commanded his only begotten son...doesn't work either, yet gee, that's what he wrote in the book. Charity is kind, and that's commanded.. hey, I'm trying my best to use your logic, Johniam, but it keeps breaking down. But then thats what happens when you try to make facts fit preconcieved notions, rather than looking at the facts objectively and then developing opinions from out of the facts.
Also, here's command's definition in its verbal form:
...to issue an order or orders (source).
Wall, stomp on puppies and call me Lucky, that almost sounds like what I said.
SoCrates
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waysider
Who said your answer was not "short enough" for me? I never said that. No one is trying to ban you or limit your voice.
I will say this, though. I think you have misinterpreted my question. I didn't ask if anyone believed in an afterlife. (I'm intentionally using the generic term because the general essence is understood by a diverse cross section of faiths and beliefs.) I asked what impact it would have if an afterlife was not included in the Christian package. I think we can extend that question to generally include other faiths that may be represented here. Your answer was that it would have a major impact for you. Then, you went on to explain why you felt that way. That's all I really asked for. There is no right or wrong answer. I'm not asking if there is an afterlife. I'm asking how the concept affects you. Do you see the difference? By "Sunday School" I mean proselytizing. It's just that simple. You don't have to"convince me" why you feel the way you do or win me over to your opinion. (ie: proselytize)
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socks
Greed and ego....
On those ideas generally, and in relation to the future of life....
Greed - wanting in excess (definition somewhat fuzzy there I've noticed in most sources - usually requires some extra tagging to identify "greed") Greed is often associated with an "I-win-you-lose" scenario, where other outcomes can be sacrificed at the expense of another)
Ego - everyone's got it. Self identification is normal, if someone doesn't have it they probably don't know they're reading this or weirder, may think someone else is - although I've read of those kinds of brain "disorders")
Christianity is identified with "selfless" love and actions, etc. where the outcome doesn't depend on the initiator getting a benefit from what they do. People do this all the time though I think - I breathe, need to breathe and normally don't consider that it's pretty much for only my own benefit that I do. I don't breathe selflessly for the benefit of others that I might do something for them, I just breathe. Most of the time I don't choose to or not to - I just do it.
I see life - and what Christianity terms "eternal life" as something similar. Life as we now know it doesn't come as a result of a self-initiated determination. Other religious concepts like karma show cause and effect but not self-execution. Life begins and continues, cycles and continues. Life itself doesn't decide to start or to end and it appears that's true in all instances of anything that's "alive". No "life" constructs itself or destructs itself of it's own internal processes.
IOW - the "battery" as we now know it may have an expiration date but it doesn't determine that or execute that.
As far as we know. And that's part of the issue here IMO - life can be defined in many ways but whether it's "spiritual" or a bio-chem-electro process in action it' doesn't appear to contain the steps that start and end - itself.
There's a consistency to that in all examples I know of that implies design and intent. Purpose.
Much debated that, I know - but when I've stepped back and disconnected from any expectation or realization of what I know as "life" and that state of awareness that I am, the trees all make a forest as it were. The similarities are astounding in this regard - diverse yes but very similar in ways.
I can spin off into what I don't know and how can I know what I don't and what if it's all not what I knew before I has that last drink - I still end up waking up the next day and brushing my teeth. Nothing completely different ever shows up and suddenly we're all really salt crystals in a Bright Overlord of Orion's condiment rack.. Maybe it will. When it does I'll be sure to post it here, if that's possible. If not - you're on your own, sorry.
So I see the battery thingie as having an inherent profile to it that goes to the human understanding of what we could call an "after life" but for my brain is better termed "continuance". It seems fairly logical and to be expected.
"I am come that you might have life and have it in abundance".
That could mean a lot of things. "Time" is likely one of them, although I'm not suggesting it's a list of stuff I get. Rather a quality of life that's full and realized.
In some future "heavenly" scenario religious theological postulations imagine a state of blissful oneness where everyone drifts around lost in the wonder of it all, no thought for themselves.
That may be what it's actually like I get a little dizzy at the sight of a decent sunset at the beach and suspend other interests and desires.
But eternity's a long time and I'd suspect that sooner or later - well, I don't really know obviously. The state of mind could be such that memories are self-sustaining or perhaps not even accumulated the same way I do now. Maybe there'll be nothing to remember that's different than what I am experiencing at that moment. Dunno.
But I get the sense that then as now, self-awareness will be intact and the realization of justice and righteousness will be clear, making cause and effect less serendipitous in it's vast and many permutations and more understood.
Or not.
Hope to see you there though!
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waysider
"continuance"....Yeah, I like that term better than "afterlife". Thanks
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Broken Arrow
You've asked this on several occassions and I always answer that if I woke up one day and realized everything I believed was wrong, I would go "oops!", and then continue on my journey. It is not an earth-shattering event for me to be wrong. Believe it or not, it's happened before. I think some may believe I'm joking when I say this, which in a way I am, but I'm also serious. I'd rather be wrong than apathetic, seriously. At least if one is wrong they're looking past the material world and trying to find some meaning. To be apathetic though is a wasted life, at least in my opinion. I mean, what is there to look forward to if one is apathetic? Supper?
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socks
Just riffin' on a theme, waysider.
The "wrong" thing is interesting too. "Everything".
If everything was something else how would I know it? If I'm not even me what would I realize I was? Would I know who I'd thought I'd was?
Everything can't be something else - something would have to remain constant as a reference point I'd think otherwise we wouldn't be cognizant of a change. It would be a moot point.
IMO there's far more consistency in the chaos of life than we give credit for. Everything else can change - as long as I recognize it though everything didn't - which may be a reverse way of dealing with cognitive processes but in difficult times it's a rock in a storm.
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geisha779
Christianity is a distinct faith....as is Islam and Judaism.... Buddhism etc...I don't think there is a narrow corridor for a generic reference to an "afterlife" unless we want to trivialize each faith. I don't know enough about other faiths to apply a generic reference to any of it.
Christian scripture is replete with specific transformation which results from the indwelling of the HS (who is eternal). If you take that away....it is just people trying to be good according to a few commands I guess? Trying to be good and becoming good are two different things.
History is replete with people transformed by the Christian faith.....but, there are people who are transformed to good and people who are just plain bad in this world...good without any faith, bad with faith. Anyone can try to be good.... No? You really don't need Jesus to tell you that. That is not why He came.
What Jesus said about loving your neighbor? Not a new or a revolutionary concept and there were many Jewish wisdom teachers around at that time saying the same thing.
Jesus said many things...He said love your neighbor, He said take care of people...He told people to be good and then He turned around and said there wasn't anyone who was good but God?
He called people dogs under the table.....He said people could lick the crumbs!! He called some people fools...He hung out with the outcasts and criminals....He told His people not to worry about food or clothing....the guy didn't have anywhere to live.
He told people not to judge and then He said to judge rightly. Which is it?
He said let the dead bury their own. He told one guy to go sell everything he owned and give it all away. He told people to pluck out their eye, cut off their hand.......He said, where I am going you can't know, and a little while later He said...why don't you ask where I am going?
He spoke of caring for the poor and then He said the poor will always be around. He chastised people for not having enough faith and then He spoke of faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains.
So which part is the package we hang onto?
If you take the things about eternity out of the mix....good luck figuring out much of what He was talking about.
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Bramble
Wrong with dire consequences--how many church doctrines teach that? Our way is right or you are Wrong. The one I was raised in, also the one I chose in my younger days. Purgatory, hell, oblivion (plus devil spirits while alive and 'What about your children?')
Gack. I realized I was sick of fear motivation a decade ago. Actually I was sick of it long before the realization. I think I was free from fear for a month or two when I took PFAL--that was how long it took for the rest of the story to start to sift on down...different fears, but still fears of being wrong.
So thankful to be off that hamster wheel.
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waysider
Here's a nice little tune about crowns and stuff.
(Y'all sing along now, ya hear?)
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excathedra
i haven't thought of a crown or a reward in over 25 years (i forget) when i was in the way
but let me think what else i was thinking about lol
i sincerely hope it's true about knowing even as we are known or something like that
i do believe god is so good and christ died for me so i can't lose you know
but this life has been and sometimes still is very difficult for me
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Ham
I wish were in a position, that I could not lose. That possibility always seems to be there.. losing, that is..
I've gambled a hell of a lot here..
I've gambled.. on a thin chance, that this country might come to its senses, and rebuild. They will need those with math and science skills..
I have about twelve, or so years to really make a difference here..
then you are forced to do whatever it is that will be done with old, skilled, or unskilled, unemployed people..
at least the hams love me..
:)
this weekend.. I still could add about 160 morse code contacts to the efforts of the local group..
well, they are worth double. Twice that of SSB or even digital voice contacts..
why is it, that I love and prefer older technology..
I can live and survive with the new.. but it seems the ranks are thinning among those of us who can do the old..
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T-Bone
Thanks, Waysider for a thought provoking topic; I recently found this thread thru a link provided by you on another thread (The Way we were? started by Jim Jack)…great thread - I enjoyed the variety of responses…you weren’t kidding when you said it was quite animated.
seemed like vpw and other top leaders used an overly concerned look to the future life as the reason to burn out in this life – hurry to events, there is nothing more important than “moving the word”, spend your money on ministry stuff, classes, events…whatever…don’t think about retirement or health insurance…honestly, such a fixation on heaven can render one of little use on earth.
After leaving TWI and periodically re-evaluating a lot of things I’ve figured out an approach to life that works for me. It goes along the lines of often seeking a…I don’t know…harmony…or synthesis between reality and religion. I’ve gotten a lot more open-minded over the years and perhaps some of that is evident here. I don’t get hung up in trying to figure out cosmic issues, theological issues…whatever. Belief systems are like mass transit – there are a number of ways to get around in life – but it all depends on where you want to go and what type of experience you want to have in route….and as long as it doesn’t require exact change – gawd I hate that!
Besides having a hope of Jesus Christ's return - there are still several distinct possibilities in the back of my mind of how life will actually pan out: there is no afterlife…or heaven exists but I’m not getting in…or I live on in an old episode of Lost or Fringe in a brief walk-on role as the guy who does not have a clue as to what’s going on. Hey, somebody out there with an Amazon Fire Stick – I’m talking to you – it’s me T-Bone ! Help !!!
Before, during and after TWI I have always been the same person. Reminds me of a joke by some stand-up comic – it’s something like this: what if you had two life-altering experiences. The second life-altering experience changed you back into the boring schlub you were before the first life-altering experience….”glad I don’t get paid for my stories”
…anyway…I’ve always been an easy going live-and-let-live type of person. If there’s nothing beyond the grave I hope I at least earn some kind words on my tombstone like “He was a good husband, dad, friend, and competent technician.” So it took a while of meandering…but to clarify my answer…taking away the afterlife from Christianity is not a deal breaker for me – because I think the big deal about Christianity is love – love for God and my fellowman.
One more thought…imagine if there was nothing beyond this life – and imagine if everyone held that to be true - maybe that would rivet our attention to the human condition and look for ways we could all help make this present life more bearable.
Edited by T-Bonetime crunch with server
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krys
Indeed! I like the way you dream.
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TLC
Seriously? No offense, but IF there's nothing beyond the grave (which is akin to no resurrection, and no Christ) then I actually think I'd prefer to have never lived. Because apart from God and Christ, I honestly just don't see the point of it.
Then I have no doubt that the world would be as it was in the days of Noah.
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Rocky
Those statements reveal much about you, but very little about anything else.
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