I have to put myself in the "not sure" camp. Remember, now, the question is NOT whether you believe there is an "afterlife". (Yes, I know the term isn't strictly Biblical but it spans a variety of belief systems and is widely understood to mean that dimension which lies beyond the moment when we shed our mortal coil.) I used to think I was sure of that aspect when I still bought into the whole concept of speaking in tongues being the proof, etc.
It must have been in about 1976,77,78...not sure... a group of Way Corps stayed with FellowLaborers one weekend on their way to some work assignment. They were all fired up about some new teaching that was being done for the Corps about eternal rewards and crowns or trophies at the Bema or some such thing. They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out, especially because no one else seemed to be bothered by it. I had never thought of it that way before. To my thinking, up to that point, you gave of yourself because it was what you chose in your heart to do. Doing the "right" thing, simply because you perceived it to be the right thing, not because you expected remuneration. In fact, my Mother, whom some of you knew personally, taught us when we were little kids, that to give because you expected something in return was a form of selfishness. I mean, isn't that why we all joined together for the FellowLaborer experience? Apparently not! That was a shocker.
So, here I am in the sixth seventh decade of my life and it seems like just yesterday that I heard my Mother imparting these lessons in living. I like to think I would continue to try my best to live by The Golden Rule, regardless of what may or may not lie beyond.... and not beat myself up so bad when I fail to do so. For me, that last part has always been the toughest.
When I rejoined the minstry, during TWI2, that was my twig leaders's big thing: rewards.
That's all he thought about was the rewards he would get.
I agree with you, you should do the right thing, simply because you percieve it the right thing, not because you expect some extra heavenly bauble for doing it.
what could any other religion offer? Christianity included?
IMO whether someone believes in eternal life or not, christianity as a whole has added immeasurably to the human condition.
The Christian church has always been a supporter and in or near the forefront of the arts, architecture, sculpture, music etc that has served to enrich peoples lives...
If there is a disaster somewhere you can bet that a ton of christian groups will be at the scene sooner or later offering aid of one form or another.
Schools, Universities, hospitals are all institutions of the church--not exclusively--but without them, life as we know it would not be the same...
....Even our three branch form of government was modeled after the Episcopal form of church polity which gives every member a voice....
People may argue over scriptural minutia, but without the general principals of christianity that have pervaded the culture for a thousand years(Love your neighbor, be forgiving, be upright and honest,have integrity, don't cheat-be generous---a million others things that i cant find the words for right now--etc)the western world would be a vastly different place.
The next time you are at St Judes Hospital getting treated, at a museum viewing the Pieta, somewhere listening to the beauty of Handels Hallelujah Chorus, watching an important vote in the House of representatives or watching hungry people get fed in a soup kitchen THEN think about what they have to offer---as i said earlier, even with the heinous things that have happened in the name of christianity, the world is immeasurably richer for its existence. The work 'in His spirit' continues
I personally am not sure if I can wrap my head around an actual physical resurrection from the dead or not, it's a very tough question that I wrestle with and have wrestled with for 40 years..I can see it easy enough in a more symbolic and figurative way.... Jesus definitely lives on in his stories, his parables, his words and his 'spirit' if nothing else. Is that enough? I dont know...Ive tried to make the 'leap' and at times I may for a short period then recoil back after i think about it.
---Whatever---Im Ok with who I am and if death be final Im fine with that too. Its a natural process,it was all a great ride--- Im not looking for any bonuses---- if I do happen to get a 'free gift' at the end of course I'll be overwhelmingly thankful but I am not going to bypass this life, all its hopes and dreams and all that it offers in hopes of one day getting it all straightened out somewhere else.
If it happens, fine, if not I still have no reason complain-To live was still a great great gift
They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out...I like to think I would continue to try my best to live by The Golden Rule, regardless of what may or may not lie beyond.... and not beat myself up so bad when I fail to do so. For me, that last part has always been the toughest.
If your question is, would I as a Christian continue to do what I do even if there were no reward, the answer would be yes. If you're asking if I would still be a Christian even if there were no hope of eternal life, then I would have to say there would be no Christianity. Eternal life is too central of a theme to Christianity to do so.
I think I see your point. If there is no eternal life, there can't be any awards presentation. The two are intertwined. I hadn't really thought about that when I started the thread. So, for the sake of argument, think of the eternal life as the sole reward.
I don't think it is humorous to trivialize Christianity...or anyone's faith for that matter...I even take Way doctrine seriously because it has an impact on peoples lives. I find it ironic that Islam holds Jesus in high esteem, other people of faith respect and reverence Him as a holy man......but those with no real faith to speak of feel the need to reduce others beliefs down to something like a package and batteries. Yes/No/Unsure....Drive thru saviors? As if there is any real discussion or consideration possible from such a perspective. Apparently my faith is the proper vehicle for jokes.
It is shallow, and it is intolerant.
I understand what you are saying.
but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?
my "beliefs" are insane.
I don't care if people label them yes, or no.. or nutty. Or if they agree.. I tend to support the idea of reincarnation. Is it right, or is it wrong?
If I can wake up with everything in the wrong place once, what guarantees that it won't happen again?
I just can't take it all that seriously..
I dunno. I'm intolerant, even as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned..
maybe, I'm just really, really screwed up here..
why have stability, when one can have all of "this" and more..
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit."
there is a mathematical description of this. It is called "derangements". The original problem involved calculating the number of ways that the post office could deliver all of the mail to the wrong address..
They have developed a formula to calculate this precise number..
you have n houses. The total number of ways the post office can't "get it right" is..
D_n=n!(1-1/1! +1/2! - 1/3! + ... +((-1)^n)/n!)
so if there are three houses. The post office has 3!(1 -1/1! +1/2! -1/3!) = 2 ways to completely screw up the delivery..
Sounds like The Tick:
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit."
Of course, its called enthropy (definition). Or as someone once put it to me: the universe has a tendancy toward maximum randomness.
It takes energy to organize (have things in their right place)
As less and less energy becomes available (enthropy: things moving to their lowest level of energy) more and more disorder occurs. Things get more and more out of their place.
However, the clock that's stopped is right twice a day.
however. suppose the referenced clock is not entirely "stopped". Like the one in my 12 pm math 105 class. the second hand is quivering between the last second and the next.. and it may advance at any given moment, or not..
will it ever be right twice a day?
I'll leave the argument up to the statisticians..
it would be far, far cheaper. If they just replaced the clock..
during tests I am probably the most highly (yet underpaid) clock. I write the advancement of time on the black board, in five minute increments..
hey.. it's a job(?).
can't be much worse than being employed as a living hard drive. Yes, I heard that schpiel from a reputable source..
It takes energy to organize (have things in their right place)
and the more you use, the less you have..
you'd have to consume all of the energy in the universe, to put everything in its proper place..
will it ever be right twice a day?
well. thinking a little further.. no matter how deranged the clocks are in Michigan universities.. they have to be correct, at least once a day. Something about continuity here that might apply..
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
undiscovered?
that is the country, we chose to flee from..
well.. it owns us.
this reference from Shakespeare was quoted in "trial of a time lord" once..
no, this was an earlier doctor. He was summoned by the high court of Galifreyian law. And Valeyard (chief prosecutor) was revealed to be close to the final incarnation of the doctor..
Interesting story line. Very, very interesting.
we had one doctor, bargaining for the remaining regenerations of his ancestor, upon successful prosecution of one's self..
I have a VHS copy. It is now playing..
I don't think Colin Baker had jelly babies though..
Terror of the Vervoids, the Ultimate Foe..
very, very interesting..
so very very interesting. Who(?) was the "Ultimate Foe"?
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TLC
If so, it probably stemmed from something LCM was into or working on. Who's thoughts on the matter, by the way, were subsequently challenged by mrs. vpw during one of the research fellowship meetings
Bolshevik
Pascal's Wager Wiki article Recommend book on cult life Quick overview:
DogLover
I go with Paul's sentiments ... if the dead be not raised, let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Thankfully, there is eternal life.
johniam
Quote: pull the eternal life block out of the Jenga tower of Christianity.
GOD has not pulled it. Oops.
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waysider
I have to put myself in the "not sure" camp. Remember, now, the question is NOT whether you believe there is an "afterlife". (Yes, I know the term isn't strictly Biblical but it spans a variety of belief systems and is widely understood to mean that dimension which lies beyond the moment when we shed our mortal coil.) I used to think I was sure of that aspect when I still bought into the whole concept of speaking in tongues being the proof, etc.
It must have been in about 1976,77,78...not sure... a group of Way Corps stayed with FellowLaborers one weekend on their way to some work assignment. They were all fired up about some new teaching that was being done for the Corps about eternal rewards and crowns or trophies at the Bema or some such thing. They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out, especially because no one else seemed to be bothered by it. I had never thought of it that way before. To my thinking, up to that point, you gave of yourself because it was what you chose in your heart to do. Doing the "right" thing, simply because you perceived it to be the right thing, not because you expected remuneration. In fact, my Mother, whom some of you knew personally, taught us when we were little kids, that to give because you expected something in return was a form of selfishness. I mean, isn't that why we all joined together for the FellowLaborer experience? Apparently not! That was a shocker.
So, here I am in the sixth seventh decade of my life and it seems like just yesterday that I heard my Mother imparting these lessons in living. I like to think I would continue to try my best to live by The Golden Rule, regardless of what may or may not lie beyond.... and not beat myself up so bad when I fail to do so. For me, that last part has always been the toughest.
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So_crates
I can emphathise, Waysider.
When I rejoined the minstry, during TWI2, that was my twig leaders's big thing: rewards.
That's all he thought about was the rewards he would get.
I agree with you, you should do the right thing, simply because you percieve it the right thing, not because you expect some extra heavenly bauble for doing it.
SoCrates
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mstar1
IMO whether someone believes in eternal life or not, christianity as a whole has added immeasurably to the human condition.
The Christian church has always been a supporter and in or near the forefront of the arts, architecture, sculpture, music etc that has served to enrich peoples lives...
If there is a disaster somewhere you can bet that a ton of christian groups will be at the scene sooner or later offering aid of one form or another.
Schools, Universities, hospitals are all institutions of the church--not exclusively--but without them, life as we know it would not be the same...
....Even our three branch form of government was modeled after the Episcopal form of church polity which gives every member a voice....
People may argue over scriptural minutia, but without the general principals of christianity that have pervaded the culture for a thousand years(Love your neighbor, be forgiving, be upright and honest,have integrity, don't cheat-be generous---a million others things that i cant find the words for right now--etc)the western world would be a vastly different place.
The next time you are at St Judes Hospital getting treated, at a museum viewing the Pieta, somewhere listening to the beauty of Handels Hallelujah Chorus, watching an important vote in the House of representatives or watching hungry people get fed in a soup kitchen THEN think about what they have to offer---as i said earlier, even with the heinous things that have happened in the name of christianity, the world is immeasurably richer for its existence. The work 'in His spirit' continues
I personally am not sure if I can wrap my head around an actual physical resurrection from the dead or not, it's a very tough question that I wrestle with and have wrestled with for 40 years..I can see it easy enough in a more symbolic and figurative way.... Jesus definitely lives on in his stories, his parables, his words and his 'spirit' if nothing else. Is that enough? I dont know...Ive tried to make the 'leap' and at times I may for a short period then recoil back after i think about it.
---Whatever---Im Ok with who I am and if death be final Im fine with that too. Its a natural process,it was all a great ride--- Im not looking for any bonuses---- if I do happen to get a 'free gift' at the end of course I'll be overwhelmingly thankful but I am not going to bypass this life, all its hopes and dreams and all that it offers in hopes of one day getting it all straightened out somewhere else.
If it happens, fine, if not I still have no reason complain-To live was still a great great gift
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Broken Arrow
If your question is, would I as a Christian continue to do what I do even if there were no reward, the answer would be yes. If you're asking if I would still be a Christian even if there were no hope of eternal life, then I would have to say there would be no Christianity. Eternal life is too central of a theme to Christianity to do so.
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waysider
I think I see your point. If there is no eternal life, there can't be any awards presentation. The two are intertwined. I hadn't really thought about that when I started the thread. So, for the sake of argument, think of the eternal life as the sole reward.
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Ham
I understand what you are saying.
but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?
my "beliefs" are insane.
I don't care if people label them yes, or no.. or nutty. Or if they agree.. I tend to support the idea of reincarnation. Is it right, or is it wrong?
If I can wake up with everything in the wrong place once, what guarantees that it won't happen again?
I just can't take it all that seriously..
I dunno. I'm intolerant, even as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned..
maybe, I'm just really, really screwed up here..
why have stability, when one can have all of "this" and more..
stability is really over-rated.
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So_crates
Sounds like The Tick:
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit."
SoCrates
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Ham
everything in the wrong place..
there is a mathematical description of this. It is called "derangements". The original problem involved calculating the number of ways that the post office could deliver all of the mail to the wrong address..
They have developed a formula to calculate this precise number..
you have n houses. The total number of ways the post office can't "get it right" is..
D_n=n!(1-1/1! +1/2! - 1/3! + ... +((-1)^n)/n!)
so if there are three houses. The post office has 3!(1 -1/1! +1/2! -1/3!) = 2 ways to completely screw up the delivery..
sanity is only relative, isn't it..
good point friend. very very good..
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So_crates
Or its cheaper to have a stopped clock than one that runs five minutes slow.
The one that runs five minutes slow is right only a couple of times during the decade.
However, the clock that's stopped is right twice a day.
SoCrates
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Ham
I still tend to rely on rational thinking. but when it fails, what do you do then?
it's not the end of the world or anything..
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waysider
William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1)
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
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So_crates
Of course, its called enthropy (definition). Or as someone once put it to me: the universe has a tendancy toward maximum randomness.
It takes energy to organize (have things in their right place)
As less and less energy becomes available (enthropy: things moving to their lowest level of energy) more and more disorder occurs. Things get more and more out of their place.
SoCrates
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Ham
however. suppose the referenced clock is not entirely "stopped". Like the one in my 12 pm math 105 class. the second hand is quivering between the last second and the next.. and it may advance at any given moment, or not..
will it ever be right twice a day?
I'll leave the argument up to the statisticians..
it would be far, far cheaper. If they just replaced the clock..
during tests I am probably the most highly (yet underpaid) clock. I write the advancement of time on the black board, in five minute increments..
hey.. it's a job(?).
can't be much worse than being employed as a living hard drive. Yes, I heard that schpiel from a reputable source..
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So_crates
Or from Yeats' The Second Coming:
TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
SoCrates
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Ham
and the more you use, the less you have..
you'd have to consume all of the energy in the universe, to put everything in its proper place..
well. thinking a little further.. no matter how deranged the clocks are in Michigan universities.. they have to be correct, at least once a day. Something about continuity here that might apply..
undiscovered?
that is the country, we chose to flee from..
well.. it owns us.
this reference from Shakespeare was quoted in "trial of a time lord" once..
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So_crates
Was it when the Doctor and Martha went back to Shakespeares time?
SoCrates
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waysider
Only once....he was a "time" lord, you know.
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So_crates
Oh, way back with Colin Baker and Jelly Babies.
Guess I still got the wrong Doctor:
SoCrates
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Ham
no, this was an earlier doctor. He was summoned by the high court of Galifreyian law. And Valeyard (chief prosecutor) was revealed to be close to the final incarnation of the doctor..
Interesting story line. Very, very interesting.
we had one doctor, bargaining for the remaining regenerations of his ancestor, upon successful prosecution of one's self..
I have a VHS copy. It is now playing..
I don't think Colin Baker had jelly babies though..
Terror of the Vervoids, the Ultimate Foe..
very, very interesting..
so very very interesting. Who(?) was the "Ultimate Foe"?
I love fiction..
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waysider
And so, unto the world
another child is born
Nestled in his mother's arms
the child's kept warm
Knows not she the power
that the child soon shall find
The universe shall be his throne
He'll smash the gates of time
Knows not she the power
that he soon shall utilize
Secrets once well hidden
men shall see then through his eyes
Time and space shall not erase
the wisdom he shall speak
Men of time which lies ahead
this wisdom then shall seek
Look about you once again
perhaps you'll see his smile
shining through your brother's eyes
Shining for the while
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Ham
The ultimate foe.. is.. what, who?
the devil?
don't think so..
fiction, is wonderful..
if you want "spoilers"..
look in the mirror..
yeah, I've seen it at least once..
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excathedra
i have read some -- scrolled for the most part
i am thrilled there is an after-life
it has been and still is my great hope
that's when i get to be with god and jesus christ and everyone i love
no tears, no heartache, no pain
something i can't imagine -- well, i can, and i'm so thankful
i kind feel like that mercy me song
i think i've been a "believing believer" lol :) since i was a little girl
i have faith regardless of the way international and victor paul wierwille
they have nothing to do with it
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Ham
I
that's really cool..
he was only just basically a turd, anyway..
so I look into the void.scary? I dunno..
maybe the whole argument comes down to.. do you *really* love me, or do you not..
fair question, I think..
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