Batteries not included.

[waysider]

I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable.

So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say?

Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)

Edited April 14, 2011 by waysider

[DogLover]

I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable.

So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say?

Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)

I go with Paul's sentiments ... if the dead be not raised, let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Thankfully, there is eternal life.

[JavaJane]

I figure I won't know for sure until I'm dead myself... And I don't believe necessarily that Christianity is the only way to heaven of there is one. Guess my answer is - whatever works.

[Human without the bean]

[quote name='waysider' date='13 April 2011

"I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are".

I wasn't aware someone could stop being a Christian. (on the other hand its a pretty sick world with a lot of twisted people in it who make it even more twisted with their rubbish and illogical jibberish).[not that anyone her (at GS) has.

If you didn't want to be affiliated with Christianity anymore I still think when you are taught about God and Jesus and if you believe it that settles it. You can't take the Jesus out of you.

So are you saying waysider that we were given tools but we weren't given the tool belt to wear them? Where are you going here? :excl:

Edited April 14, 2011 by Human without the bean

[waysider]

Pretty straight forward, really. Think of Christianity as a package-deal sort of product, with the batteries representing an afterlife. What if the package didn't include batteries? (afterlife)... Would you still buy the product without the batteries? ....Yes/No/Not sure...Why or Why not?

It's really just another way of stating what we all heard VPW postulate in PFAL.

("If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, etc. etc.")

[Human without the bean]

Ok. Yeah, sure, why not? I could always build a dam and run off hydro power! :P

[geisha779]

I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable.

So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say?

Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)

What an intrusive and deeply personal question that isn't really anyone's business. I love the caveat..."no Sunday School lessons". What is this...an essay of ten words or less on why one chooses their faith? Yuck

Don't ask a question about the Christian faith if you don't want a faith based answer!!!

I noticed you asked but didn't offer your own answer. Why do you care? That is MY question.What is the POINT of such a deeply personal question?

How does this expose TWI? This sounds a bit like proselytizing to me and it doesn't sound any different than some new person coming on here and asking why people are not Christian...people go ballistic over that one.

Didn't you ask this on another thread? How many do we need?

Here is my answer...none of your business.Short enough for you? I could say plenty more.....

Edited April 14, 2011 by geisha779

[waysider]

As always, participation is voluntary.

It's too be bad we (self included) didn't become this animated when VPW posed this same scenario in PFAL. (requisite TWI reference)

Remember VPW saying this?:

"If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going."

Same idea, just structured as a statement rather than a question. Then, a couple sessions later, he tosses the "once saved, always saved" concept into the mix. He does so with a caveat, of course. "I didn't say it, you did." He fortifies it with scripture (John 3:16). Gee, wouldn't that be swell if Adolph Hitler was exposed to Romans 10: 9&10 sometime in his youth? Or maybe you could spend eternity side by side with Charles Manson. Hmmmmm. could it really be that simple? Spend one millionth of a nano-second believing something and you're guaranteed an afterlife? Somehow, I think there is something missing from the premise.

Later, sessions 11 & 12, he tosses in some free coupons for the batteries...."Don't you want to speak in tongues?...It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you."

So there you have it. Leave everything else in. Take the afterlife out. How would that change your view of Christianity?

[mstar1]

I can see the benefits of Christianity without an afterlife--

Whether there is or is not an afterlife, The hope of an afterlife can be uplifting and motivating in and of itself...

I would never be a part of another TWI type group but even if it had nothing at all to do with an afterlife, Christianity still has many many beneficial aspects to it .

[geisha779]

As always, participation is voluntary.

It's too be bad we (self included) didn't become this animated when VPW posed this same scenario in PFAL. (requisite TWI reference)

Remember VPW saying this?:

"If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going."

Same idea, just structured as a statement rather than a question. Then, a couple sessions later, he tosses the "once saved, always saved" concept into the mix. He does so with a caveat, of course. "I didn't say it, you did." He fortifies it with scripture (John 3:16). Gee, wouldn't that be swell if Adolph Hitler was exposed to Romans 10: 9&10 sometime in his youth? Or maybe you could spend eternity side by side with Charles Manson. Hmmmmm. could it really be that simple? Spend one millionth of a nano-second believing something and you're guaranteed an afterlife? Somehow, I think there is something missing from the premise.

Later, sessions 11 & 12, he tosses in some free coupons for the batteries...."Don't you want to speak in tongues?...It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you."

So there you have it. Leave everything else in. Take the afterlife out. How would that change your view of Christianity?

So, what about you? How does it change your view of Christianity?

In fact, what do you really know and understand about the Christian faith? Other than your time spent in an abusive cult....how much time have YOU spent examining the arguments for the cross....for the resurrection.....the historical arguments, the ontological arguments, the existential arguments, the telelogical arguments, the cosmological arguments......reading Christian authors...Christian history.....heck, how much time have you spent in the scriptures since leaving TWI? How many times have you prayed to know God, humbly willing to accept what you learn?

I am not talking about running to yet another person who denies the scripture like VP...be it dressed up in an intellectual wrapping. I am talking about really understanding faith in Jesus Christ.

You see, if you don't even know the Christian faith....some silly question isn't really going to change your view of it...is it? There is no such thing as believing something for a nano- second and receiving eternal life in the Christian FAITH. It is a faith.

Edited April 14, 2011 by geisha779

[So_crates]

Thomas Jefferson once said:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

With this in mind, here's my theory:

Many people are afraid to die. There's something about our conciousness being snuffed out of existence. Or going into some great unknown, "down a blackhole," as another poster put it.

We also see we are surrounded by what we believe to be an unjust universe. Good whithers while what we percive as evil flourishes. I say percive because some of the behaviors that we attribute to evil is nothing more than our animal nature coming out. Being self-aware creatures we find this appalling.

Ross McDonald once compared a human life to a bird flying through a lighted corridor placed between two dark corridors. We don't know where we came from, nor where we're going. We wonder if there's any overriding reason for everything we see around us.

I'm reminded of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy were the narrator says there are two theories to the universe. The first says that if we ever figure out what the universe is and why we're here it'll disappear and something even more bizarre and unexplainable will take its place. The other theory says that's already happened.

So it only makes sense we would create 1]. an afterlife to assure ourselves that there's some purpose for being here and that our consciousness won't die and 2]. a place where justice is finally meeted out.

For many I would think it would be a deal breaker. Why? You gut many of the tenants of Christianity:

1]. Justice wouldn't be serverd.

2]. The universe is a senseless place with no purpose

3]. And there's no eternal life.

My opinion? Being skeptical, I don't have enough information to lean one way or the other, so I file it in the "Need More Information" file with Sasquatch and alien autopsies.

SoCrates

Edited April 14, 2011 by So_crates

[So_crates]

Basically, Waysider is asking:

What if this is as good as it gets?

SoCrates

Edited April 14, 2011 by So_crates

[Bramble]

I no longer believe in an afterlife that is the result of choosing the right religion. I think all dead enter the afterlife, its as natural as babies born enter this life. What makes it different is how you chose to live your life, the relationships you forged, lessons learned and grown into.

I no longer believe in a savior, or original sin or the need for a savior...that would be why I'm not Christian today.

[Bolshevik]

. . .

It's too be bad we (self included) didn't become this animated when VPW posed this same scenario in PFAL. (requisite TWI reference)

Remember VPW saying this?:

"If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going."

. . .

I bristled every time it was said . . . usually it was said too me.

It's the previous generation's cult. They enjoyed it. Not me.

[OldSkool]

Remember VPW saying this?:

"If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going."

Considering VPW's history of women, brandy, and abuses I guess he did have "the best time."

[excathedra]

if there's no after-life, wtf am i doing here?

i told you all this before -- my mom told me this --

she gets to the pearly gates and st. peter is there (she's catholic) and he welcomes her right in. but she asks him why she doesn't have to spend any time in purgatory for her sins and he says:

"where do you think you just came from"

[waysider]

if there's no after-life, wtf am i doing here?

Yes, I think for a lot of people, that's the $64,000 question.

[socks]

Can't respond without some adjustments:

"Afterlife" - a term I don't use. Sounds - wrong. After.....life.

If the life after....life has no battery, it's gone, over, done.

I'm of the belief that life isn't terminal by nature, that it isn't meant to end but rather to be sustained. Physical life degrades over time. That's fundamentally wrong to me. It's not just wishful thinking but rather a conviction based on the human impulse to want to live as long as an individual instance of life wants to live, whether it be 90 years, 900 or 90, 000.

The urge of life is to be alive. The basic human desire is to live as long as one can until one doesn't want to. And I can't sit down and decide "over" and stop it by the will of my own life. I can end it using different methods but I can't in and of myself only, stop it. I can wish to but I have to take action to do that. My "Life" can't shut itself down, a completely functional and healthy instance of life can't decide to not be alive anymore and terminate within and of it's own life.

I phrase this as "life goes on and will go on until it doesn't". Real smart there, I know.

The fact that something can end it doesn't mean that life itself is meant to end, IMO. So -

Yes, the biblical vision of a God who, through this human path, intends for a longer span of life, makes complete sense to me. It just sounds right.

And it sounds right to me that the bible speaks to that, albeit through hazy terminology at times. Yet, Corinthians, couple other spots, speak to it very directly.

It's certainly possible that there we be on life....after....life. But I don't believe that to be the case.

If there weren't? Wouldn't matter then, to me. I won't know about it. In the meantime, the path of following Jesus Christ is very satisfying and supports the idea that resurrection and continuance of life is what will happen.

[So_crates]

if there's no after-life, wtf am i doing here?

Randomness, enthropy, and the chaos theory?

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,

And things seem hard or tough,

And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,

And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving

And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,

That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,

A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see

Are moving at a million miles a day

In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,

Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.

It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.

It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,

But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.

We go 'round every two hundred million years,

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions

In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding

In all of the directions it can whizz

As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,

Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,

And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

SoCrates

Edited April 15, 2011 by So_crates

[socks]

"she gets to the pearly gates and st. peter is there (she's catholic) and he welcomes her right in. but she asks him why she doesn't have to spend any time in purgatory for her sins and he says:

"where do you think you just came from"

:biglaugh::biglaugh:

Very good.

I gotta joke I riff on with me Wife. I'll do something really bone headed, just AAA High Grade Real Beef Dumb. I'll tell,her, "Yeah, someday you'll be at Heaven's Door and the guy at the steps will check you in and go - wait. You're Janet? Married to BeefBrain?" And she'll nod and he'll say "Come on in, take the Fast Track to the Halo Sizing Booths!" :biglaugh:

I'll be in Area 57, hanging with the Free-fers, waiting.

[Ham]

afterlife, afterlife.. or is it beforelife..

"where ARE you from.."

"I suppose the best way to find out where you come from is to find out where you' re going, and then work backwards".

anybody who knows the source of this off the top of their head wins the booby prize..

I really think that this existence is some kind of summer camp..

a short, sweet (and for some of us not so sweet) break from eternity..

the portal I passed through towards this place, it was like death..

that is an impression I had when I was very young.

[So_crates]

I really think that this existence is some kind of summer camp..

a short, sweet (and for some of us not so sweet) break from eternity..

the portal I passed through towards this place, it was like death..

that is an impression I had when I was very young.

As I stated in another thread, Ross McDonald described a human life as a bird flying in a lighted corridor, sandwitched between two dark corridors. We come from the unknown, we go to the unknown, the only thing we really know is now.

SoCrates

[Ham]

It was a pretty vivid impression. Maybe hippies laced my halloween candy with lsd.. Who knows..

as far as the batteries are concerned.. I think no batteries included was part of the agreement to enter this existence.

we have those, who claim to have the batteries. I would like to see one honest report of where the "battery poser" has done something really useful.. other than to try to desperately attract attention and admiration to itself..

generally. I know, perhaps there are a couple specific cases..

[JavaJane]

Sometimes I think people use "heaven" and "hell" as the reason they choose to do right or do wrong. The reward or the punishment at the end of life is the motivation to treat others with kindness, to not act out of selfish desires, to "do the right thing."

But if the reward for good behavior isn't there, or the fear of punishment isn't there, would they still be kind to others? Would they resist the temptation to steal from another person?

In a way, seeing good done by an atheist or an agnostic almost speaks of more altruism than those who are religious.

Why should we be nice to others if there is no one looking over us keeping score for the time you die?

Just thinking deep thoughts tonight... And I don't mean that atheist/agnostics/insert-random-belief-here-people are somehow better than Christians at all. I just think it is important for each person to understand why they do what they do.

Does that make sense?

[So_crates]

Sometimes I think people use "heaven" and "hell" as the reason they choose to do right or do wrong. The reward or the punishment at the end of life is the motivation to treat others with kindness, to not act out of selfish desires, to "do the right thing."

But if the reward for good behavior isn't there, or the fear of punishment isn't there, would they still be kind to others? Would they resist the temptation to steal from another person?

In a way, seeing good done by an atheist or an agnostic almost speaks of more altruism than those who are religious.

Why should we be nice to others if there is no one looking over us keeping score for the time you die?

But then, JJ, if your only nice to people because your afraid of somebody in red spandex stabbing will be stabbing you with a pitchfork in a place decorated in fire and brimstone, doesn't that cheapen the act of kindness? Your not doing it out of love, but out of fear.

Further, doesn't that cheapen doing what's right? Your not doing it because its the right thing to do, you doing it because your afraid.

SoCrates

Edited April 15, 2011 by So_crates