There used to be something on the frontpage stating that this was not a specifically christian site. There are a lot of christians here, some people of other faiths, and some people who are agnostic or atheists...All are welcome...some people are rightfully p1$$ed off
After I got out of the way I kept looking and looking and looking and looking in that dirty bath water and dang if I could find any baby anywhere. There wasn't one! There was an illusion of a baby with some good smoke and mirrors but underneath the slimy water it was never really there...
Im a christian now, but Ive tossed out the bathwater, the tub, the faucet, the bathroom, the plumbing and the illusions
I don't care about the VP stuff either. Well as long as you are still Christians it seems like you haven't thrown the Baby out then. But it seems like there are those here who have! Wow! That is so very SAD.
This place with all of you ex TWI people doen't seem very Christian. I do understand having a dislike for being treated bad in TWI bybad leaders but it seems like many have thrown out the baby and the bath water! This is very sad. It doesnt seem like a Christian sight to me because so many have tripped out on God. But God is still God and so is Jesus Christ!
Something GS has helped me to understand is that the TWI stuff that went bad for some people wasn't usually the cause for them to stop "believin'g" or to change what they believed.
In other word, it wasn't as if -
Oh, that Way leader was so bad to (me) and lied to me and treated me so bad. Now I hate God!
You'll notice more and more as you read that while these kinds of experiences do effect people, people do step back and away and can then see better, a little clearer and more objectively.
It is in fact easier to separate the Baby from "bathwater" - a metaphor I really hate because it's so glib but I get what you're saying I think.
it's easier to see what's fluff and what's stuff once you just clear the decks and the air and evaluate what you're doing and thinking.
God can be very involved in that too by the way which I'm sure you know.
When I drifted away from "da ministry" in 1990, it was partly because of personal commitments and partly because I had gotten fed-up with the organization, itself. I hadn't given up on God at all. In fact, I continued to use PFAL materials to "witness" to people. However, I was careful not to refer them to any sort of twig or branch or whatever. Ironically, it was a search for a copy of the PFAL book that led me to GreaseSpot Cafe. I did, though, feel like I had "tripped out" because I had left what I thought at that time to be "the one true household". That set me up for a lot of guilt. As a result of what I have learned at GSC, I no longer feel guilty about leaving. I didn't really "trip out" on anything. All I did was leave a cult. Why should I feel guilty about that?
This place with all of you ex TWI people doen't seem very Christian. I do understand having a dislike for being treated bad in TWI bybad leaders but it seems like many have thrown out the baby and the bath water! This is very sad. It doesnt seem like a Christian sight to me because so many have tripped out on God. But God is still God and so is Jesus Christ!
it depends on how you look at it. if you assume TWI's interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct - that what they "officially" say and do is THE Christian standard i can understand why you said what you did. spend some time just reading threads in not only the By The Way forum but also in the Doctrinal forum - i think you'll find many folks here didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater - but rather have actually given a lot of thought to just about every doctrinal, practical and social aspect of TWI - analyzing many things to the nth degree - probably rivaling any CSI team.
and please don't take offense at this - but that all-or-nothing thinking is a typical TWI mindset....that's one of the many pieces of mental baggage i had to deal with for awhile after i left. don't worry you'll get over it - as you learn to enjoy this freedom to think .....i'm still a Christian - i was a Christian long before i joined TWI.....and since i've left i've passionately pursued so many fields of study that i feel have deepened my faith and broadened my perspective on life.
~ ~
in my opinion, the most insidious factor of TWI was the attitude they instilled in followers - not only by their teachings but in programs, functions - in their very culture. i believe they did set a new standard for a counterfeit Christianity based on hypocrisy, legalism, and "spiritual" elitism [aka snobbery]......alright so i admit i tripped out of one of the finest bunch of hypocritical legalistic snobs.
~ ~
you're right - this isn't a Christian site - it has never indicated that is was.....this is a forum for folks who left a counterfeit Christian "site" called The Way International - here folks tell the other side of the story.
I have to give TWI credit for something good, Tony. It helped me learn how to separate truth from error. Looking at it from a distance as Socks pointed out gives a totally different view. You've heard of the phrase, "can't see the forest for the trees"? It seems pretty obvious to me that there's no meaningful differences in the world's major religions and that they are all contrivances. Others see it differently, or course. Naw... personally I don't think there ARE any gods or devils. Never were. Live and let live, Tony. Enjoy the only life you know for sure you have and do what you can for others.
Zamb, I'm a real love bunny when it comes to most things but being what I'd call a Christian I don't have much patience for all of the organized busy work that constitutes ministries like the Way. I know people still in the Way, involved, whatever and they're fine people I respect. That's because they live real lives and do real things and have real faith. I don't put much truck in the business of ministries and that goes for all of them. I prefer people. So I don't give stars for membership or affiliations of any kind.
That goes for websites too. And everything doesn't have to be "Christian" to be good or have good purpose. I work for a company that does good work, make a good salary - nothing Christian about it. Play music with people - they don't have to recite Romans 10:9 and 10 for me before we play.
I'm the Christian, as far as my faith I bring it with me. You don't have to have any to have my illuminating presence and all the benefits that go with it. Sad? I'll bring the happy.
I'm sure you have a lot of worthwhile and cool stuff to share - please do. These atheists need all the help they can get. :biglaugh:
So, there you have it, Tony... Cat-licks, Buddhists, Bha'is, Wandering Jews and dirty, filthy heathens, all hangin' out on the same street corner....and diggin' it.
This place with all of you ex TWI people doen't seem very Christian. I do understand having a dislike for being treated bad in TWI bybad leaders but it seems like many have thrown out the baby and the bath water! This is very sad. It doesnt seem like a Christian sight to me because so many have tripped out on God. But God is still God and so is Jesus Christ!
I agree. Some here HAVE thrown out the baby with the bath water. I get into many arguments with people along those lines, yet if I walked a mile in their shoes....so I can't totally fault them. I left twi in 1994. Since doing that I've been exposed to 4 different twi spinoffs plus for a year or so my family attended a Presbyterian church, which wasn't so bad. Currently I attend a fellowship which is similar to the best of times in twi, yet, refreshingly absent the verbal abuse that kept getting worse and worse in twi, especially after 1989 or so.
Some people here feel betrayed. Some were sexually abused. Those folks got sick of being told all the time just renew your mind. People just need to get that stuff out.
This place with all of you ex TWI people doen't seem very Christian.
[it's a site with many Christians that is not specifically a "Christian" site. All are welcome here,
especially those with twi history, for whom this site is meant. (Them and people seeking information
on twi.]
I do understand having a dislike for being treated bad in TWI by bad leaders but it seems like many have thrown out the baby and the bath water! This is very sad.
[i, personally, wasn't treated particularly badly by twi people. If you don't count toxic doctrine
and bad practical and doctrinal error, it wasn't bad for me particularly.
(Then only various a-holes account for any bad experiences.)
It's all the crimes and moral wrongs done by vpw, lcm, rfr and others that were done-and are STILL
done- that need to be exposed. We were all lied to, deceived-and it was an orchestrated plan with
a LOT of lies- and it worked. We were all deceived. That's morally wrong, and various crimes were
also committed-including Fraud and Rape. Some lost their lives because of twi.
If that's not enough of a reason for having more than a "dislike" for someone or some thing,
then SHAME ON YOU.
In other news,
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
I've also noticed that different people count different things as "baby"- what's important-
and "bath water"- what's to be discarded.
If you mean "believe the Bible and trust it", I've retained that "baby".
If you mean "believe twi's package and sum total", I've tossed that out as "bath water."
What was true before vpw was born is still true. What are lies and deceptions are useless to me
no matter whose name is on the label.]
It doesnt seem like a Christian sight to me because so many have tripped out on God. But God is still God and so is Jesus Christ!
[it's not a Christian site, but you'll still get treated better here as a dissenter
than as a dissenter in twi. They're a LOT more cruel to their objectors.
Again with this "tripped out" thing. Same language again! Is there some "anti-GSC Manifesto"
or something with the handful of phrases? It's got to come from SOMEWHERE.
I left twi because twi as a whole decided-openly-to follow men rather than God.
I consider twi to have "tripped out." I've done my best to follow God no matter who was
I don't care about the VP stuff either. Well as long as you are still Christians it seems like you haven't thrown the Baby out then. But it seems like there are those here who have! Wow! That is so very SAD.
[i think it's sad some ex-twi are no longer Christians, also.
However, they are ADULTS and I respect their rights to CHOOSE.
I do, however, blame twi and vpw for the reason they so chose.
If my experience was that Christians were terrible people who ruined
lives, controlled lives, and their leadership was free to rape
and destroy reputations if someone disagreed with them,
then I might be prepared to discard all Christians as a lost cause.
I certainly discarded Christians as a lost cause for much less reason
when I was young and foolish, so substantial reasons make some sense.
So, SHAME ON VPW. SHAME ON LCM. SHAME ON RFR. SHAME ON TWI.
They have done the things that displease God, and have hurt His
people and driven His people far from Him. God will hold each of them
This place with all of you ex TWI people doen't seem very Christian. I do understand having a dislike for being treated bad in TWI bybad leaders but it seems like many have thrown out the baby and the bath water! This is very sad. It doesnt seem like a Christian sight to me because so many have tripped out on God. But God is still God and so is Jesus Christ!
Maybe many people never really knew God or were Christian in TWI, but rather worshiped a book and a wrong idea about God. Maybe they are not tripped out on God, but instead on an ugly theology they learned in a cult. Either way...God is able....and He promises He will call those who belong to Him back to the fold. It is not really out of His jurisdiction or area of interest.
So, if, as you say... God is still God....have a little faith. :)
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
Why do all the people who type in English all use the same language? Every time they need to use a definite article they use the word 'the'. That's the only word they use! Aren't they permitted to think for themselves? The English language must be for hillbillies, I guess. You'd think a legitimate language would have at least 50 definite articles in it.
It's called LANGUAGE! If you communicate to others in a LANGUAGE, then you must use the proper words of the LANGUAGE! Most people think babies are valuable; those same people think that bathwater is expendable. The reason a cliche is a cliche is because it's true. If you can think of a better way to communicate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" then have at it. If you can think of a better definite article than 'the' have at that, too.
John, what WW is talking about is "jargon", not "language" per se. I think you probably already realize that. This need to argue over the nuances of semantics seems to be a residual effect. I have often noticed it in people who have a previous history of involvement with The Way.
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
This is an interesting and provocative question. I have wondered the same thing too...are there talking points issued somewhere? Good observation...thanks for making me think. Where else did we hear that term baby and bathwater used?
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
Why do all the people who type in English all use the same language? Every time they need to use a definite article they use the word 'the'. That's the only word they use! Aren't they permitted to think for themselves? The English language must be for hillbillies, I guess. You'd think a legitimate language would have at least 50 definite articles in it.
It's called LANGUAGE! If you communicate to others in a LANGUAGE, then you must use the proper words of the LANGUAGE! Most people think babies are valuable; those same people think that bathwater is expendable. The reason a cliche is a cliche is because it's true. If you can think of a better way to communicate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" then have at it. If you can think of a better definite article than 'the' have at that, too.
There is a difference between language and buzz words: one everyone has a common understanding, the other may or may not be understood by everyone and also helps identify members of a certain group.
Now when you get people reading off the same talking points, you get the same similes, metaphors, ,and idioms. When people say the exact same thing over and over again, its almost a dead givaway that whatevers being said came from a common source.
Look at politicians, you can tell they're going by talking points because everyone of them will say almost the same thing. And that bleeds down right to the rank and file.
I do, however, think you could have expressed that in a little less confrontive way to Wordwolf. Do you think he doesn't understand the dynamics of language? Do you think he doesn't know what a cliche is?
Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification?
Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification?
I think he was trying to bully me (and by association, Tony) into silence. The self appointed damage control czar at it again. For many here, the other side of the story has become the ONLY side of the story, and when Tony makes an honest observation like "why are there so many tripped out Christians here?" this is a problem. He has what? 30 posts? WWs message was very clear.
Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification?
I think he was trying to bully me (and by association, Tony) into silence.
First off, I don't read any aggression in his post. He made a simple observation.
Second, there aggression everywhere in your post: accusing, talking down to, taking sides.
Third, even if you want to rationalize by saying he was bullying you: two wrongs don't make a right
Finally, in this area: Do I have to repeat it?
Okay, everybody: according to your chosen belief system, if you believe he's trying to bully you into silence, he's trying to bully you into silence. It's not that he is trying to bully you into silence, but that your belief is making him seem to be trying to bully you into silence.
The self appointed damage control czar at it again
Damage control has nothing to do with it. I didn't say: don't present your side, or imply anything that suggested I wanted you to not to state your side.
I asked if there was a better non-aggressive way to present your side--you know, without accusing, talking down to, or taking sides?
Also, on this front: according to your chosen belief system, if you believe I'm attempting damage control, then I'm attempting damage control. Its not due to any effort on my part, but due to your believing.
"why are there so many tripped out Christians here?" this is a problem.
Why is it a problem? It doesn't seem to be bothering them. Why is it bothering you? You really overreacted to Wordwolf's post. Why is it triggering one of your insecurities? Again we go back to your believing making it a problem.
However, if I were to hazard a guess: You think these tripped out Christian seen the same bullying you just displayed and tripped out? Nah, that can't possibly be the answer can it? Maybe they got tired of being abused by bullies. Nah, that couldn't be it either. After all people enjoy being sworn at, accused, being called names, being talked down to...(where is that sarcastic smiley?)
As I said before Saint Vic was a bully, he taught others to be bullys. Look at Martindale. 'Nuff said. Then you add to it the trickle down theory...and you have a ministry of bullies bullying people because they think that normal behavior.
As in my previous post, when I get a whole bunch of people using similar methaphors and idioms, I can bet my press card they're coming from a common source. But then, just because you read it on GSC its immediately one sided.
Once again: according to your chosen belief system: if you believe everything on GSC is one-sided, then its one-sided. Its not that it is one-sided, but that your belief is making it one-sided.
Have you ever considered Wordwolf's side? You seem to want everyone to consider your side but you don't want to consider anyone elses.
So we once again get back to my original questions:(which you continuously dodge)
What do you want?
How will you know when you have it?
To which I'll add: do you think bullying and talking down to people will help you to get it?
To put it in ministry terms: I think its time you checked your believing and renewed your mind.
Speaking of jargon, I find it mildly amusing, for some reason, that, in The Way, "tripped out" meant something entirely different than it meant to the general populace.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
20
20
37
17
Popular Days
Apr 9
21
Apr 10
20
Apr 16
19
Apr 15
16
Top Posters In This Topic
geisha779 20 posts
waysider 20 posts
So_crates 37 posts
tonyzamboni 17 posts
Popular Days
Apr 9 2011
21 posts
Apr 10 2011
20 posts
Apr 16 2011
19 posts
Apr 15 2011
16 posts
Popular Posts
mstar1
There used to be something on the frontpage stating that this was not a specifically christian site. There are a lot of christians here, some people of other faiths, and some people who are agnostic o
WordWolf
[it's a site with many Christians that is not specifically a "Christian" site. All are welcome here, especially those with twi history, for whom this site is meant. (Them and people seeking informat
johniam
Well, good. I've progressed from a wierwille apologist to a whipping boy to a polarity responder. That's encouraging. However, I still prefer son of God.
mstar1
There used to be something on the frontpage stating that this was not a specifically christian site. There are a lot of christians here, some people of other faiths, and some people who are agnostic or atheists...All are welcome...some people are rightfully p1$$ed off
After I got out of the way I kept looking and looking and looking and looking in that dirty bath water and dang if I could find any baby anywhere. There wasn't one! There was an illusion of a baby with some good smoke and mirrors but underneath the slimy water it was never really there...
Im a christian now, but Ive tossed out the bathwater, the tub, the faucet, the bathroom, the plumbing and the illusions
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
The more I consider it the more I'm convinced Saint Vic was an evil, evil man.
Consider:
The only thing he was concerned about was his self gratification and adoration.
And what did he give in return? Lies, bromides, platitudes, and general bull.
The more I recall PLAF, the more I see what a steaming load of bull it was.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
tonyzamboni
I don't care about the VP stuff either. Well as long as you are still Christians it seems like you haven't thrown the Baby out then. But it seems like there are those here who have! Wow! That is so very SAD.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Too many assumptions
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
what does tripped out on God mean these days?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Something GS has helped me to understand is that the TWI stuff that went bad for some people wasn't usually the cause for them to stop "believin'g" or to change what they believed.
In other word, it wasn't as if -
Oh, that Way leader was so bad to (me) and lied to me and treated me so bad. Now I hate God!
You'll notice more and more as you read that while these kinds of experiences do effect people, people do step back and away and can then see better, a little clearer and more objectively.
It is in fact easier to separate the Baby from "bathwater" - a metaphor I really hate because it's so glib but I get what you're saying I think.
it's easier to see what's fluff and what's stuff once you just clear the decks and the air and evaluate what you're doing and thinking.
God can be very involved in that too by the way which I'm sure you know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
When I drifted away from "da ministry" in 1990, it was partly because of personal commitments and partly because I had gotten fed-up with the organization, itself. I hadn't given up on God at all. In fact, I continued to use PFAL materials to "witness" to people. However, I was careful not to refer them to any sort of twig or branch or whatever. Ironically, it was a search for a copy of the PFAL book that led me to GreaseSpot Cafe. I did, though, feel like I had "tripped out" because I had left what I thought at that time to be "the one true household". That set me up for a lot of guilt. As a result of what I have learned at GSC, I no longer feel guilty about leaving. I didn't really "trip out" on anything. All I did was leave a cult. Why should I feel guilty about that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
@ Waysider
I understand what your saying.
Even though I left the ministry in the mid 80s, I didn't give up teaching the materials until a couple of years ago.
I look back on my life (I got in the ministry when I was 19-20) and I just think it was a titanic waste of time.
I'd be hard pressed to find a teaching I could apply to real life.
This, of course, leads me to the conclusion I've expressed earlier: Saint Vic was actually an evil, evil man disguised as an angel of light.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
it depends on how you look at it. if you assume TWI's interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct - that what they "officially" say and do is THE Christian standard i can understand why you said what you did. spend some time just reading threads in not only the By The Way forum but also in the Doctrinal forum - i think you'll find many folks here didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater - but rather have actually given a lot of thought to just about every doctrinal, practical and social aspect of TWI - analyzing many things to the nth degree - probably rivaling any CSI team.
and please don't take offense at this - but that all-or-nothing thinking is a typical TWI mindset....that's one of the many pieces of mental baggage i had to deal with for awhile after i left. don't worry you'll get over it - as you learn to enjoy this freedom to think
.....i'm still a Christian - i was a Christian long before i joined TWI.....and since i've left i've passionately pursued so many fields of study that i feel have deepened my faith and broadened my perspective on life.
~ ~
in my opinion, the most insidious factor of TWI was the attitude they instilled in followers - not only by their teachings but in programs, functions - in their very culture. i believe they did set a new standard for a counterfeit Christianity based on hypocrisy, legalism, and "spiritual" elitism [aka snobbery]......alright so i admit i tripped out of one of the finest bunch of hypocritical legalistic snobs.
~ ~
you're right - this isn't a Christian site - it has never indicated that is was.....this is a forum for folks who left a counterfeit Christian "site" called The Way International - here folks tell the other side of the story.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
I have to give TWI credit for something good, Tony. It helped me learn how to separate truth from error. Looking at it from a distance as Socks pointed out gives a totally different view. You've heard of the phrase, "can't see the forest for the trees"? It seems pretty obvious to me that there's no meaningful differences in the world's major religions and that they are all contrivances. Others see it differently, or course. Naw... personally I don't think there ARE any gods or devils. Never were. Live and let live, Tony. Enjoy the only life you know for sure you have and do what you can for others.
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
The forest for the trees, well put Sudo.
Zamb, I'm a real love bunny when it comes to most things but being what I'd call a Christian I don't have much patience for all of the organized busy work that constitutes ministries like the Way. I know people still in the Way, involved, whatever and they're fine people I respect. That's because they live real lives and do real things and have real faith. I don't put much truck in the business of ministries and that goes for all of them. I prefer people. So I don't give stars for membership or affiliations of any kind.
That goes for websites too. And everything doesn't have to be "Christian" to be good or have good purpose. I work for a company that does good work, make a good salary - nothing Christian about it. Play music with people - they don't have to recite Romans 10:9 and 10 for me before we play.
I'm the Christian, as far as my faith I bring it with me. You don't have to have any to have my illuminating presence and all the benefits that go with it.
Sad? I'll bring the happy.
I'm sure you have a lot of worthwhile and cool stuff to share - please do. These atheists need all the help they can get.
:biglaugh:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
So, there you have it, Tony... Cat-licks, Buddhists, Bha'is, Wandering Jews and dirty, filthy heathens, all hangin' out on the same street corner....and diggin' it.
Ain't life grand?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I agree. Some here HAVE thrown out the baby with the bath water. I get into many arguments with people along those lines, yet if I walked a mile in their shoes....so I can't totally fault them. I left twi in 1994. Since doing that I've been exposed to 4 different twi spinoffs plus for a year or so my family attended a Presbyterian church, which wasn't so bad. Currently I attend a fellowship which is similar to the best of times in twi, yet, refreshingly absent the verbal abuse that kept getting worse and worse in twi, especially after 1989 or so.
Some people here feel betrayed. Some were sexually abused. Those folks got sick of being told all the time just renew your mind. People just need to get that stuff out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[it's a site with many Christians that is not specifically a "Christian" site. All are welcome here,
especially those with twi history, for whom this site is meant. (Them and people seeking information
on twi.]
[i, personally, wasn't treated particularly badly by twi people. If you don't count toxic doctrine
and bad practical and doctrinal error, it wasn't bad for me particularly.
(Then only various a-holes account for any bad experiences.)
It's all the crimes and moral wrongs done by vpw, lcm, rfr and others that were done-and are STILL
done- that need to be exposed. We were all lied to, deceived-and it was an orchestrated plan with
a LOT of lies- and it worked. We were all deceived. That's morally wrong, and various crimes were
also committed-including Fraud and Rape. Some lost their lives because of twi.
If that's not enough of a reason for having more than a "dislike" for someone or some thing,
then SHAME ON YOU.
In other news,
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
I've also noticed that different people count different things as "baby"- what's important-
and "bath water"- what's to be discarded.
If you mean "believe the Bible and trust it", I've retained that "baby".
If you mean "believe twi's package and sum total", I've tossed that out as "bath water."
What was true before vpw was born is still true. What are lies and deceptions are useless to me
no matter whose name is on the label.]
[it's not a Christian site, but you'll still get treated better here as a dissenter
than as a dissenter in twi. They're a LOT more cruel to their objectors.
Again with this "tripped out" thing. Same language again! Is there some "anti-GSC Manifesto"
or something with the handful of phrases? It's got to come from SOMEWHERE.
I left twi because twi as a whole decided-openly-to follow men rather than God.
I consider twi to have "tripped out." I've done my best to follow God no matter who was
alongside me and what titles were used. ]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[i think it's sad some ex-twi are no longer Christians, also.
However, they are ADULTS and I respect their rights to CHOOSE.
I do, however, blame twi and vpw for the reason they so chose.
If my experience was that Christians were terrible people who ruined
lives, controlled lives, and their leadership was free to rape
and destroy reputations if someone disagreed with them,
then I might be prepared to discard all Christians as a lost cause.
I certainly discarded Christians as a lost cause for much less reason
when I was young and foolish, so substantial reasons make some sense.
So, SHAME ON VPW. SHAME ON LCM. SHAME ON RFR. SHAME ON TWI.
They have done the things that displease God, and have hurt His
people and driven His people far from Him. God will hold each of them
responsible for their evil deeds.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Maybe many people never really knew God or were Christian in TWI, but rather worshiped a book and a wrong idea about God. Maybe they are not tripped out on God, but instead on an ugly theology they learned in a cult. Either way...God is able....and He promises He will call those who belong to Him back to the fold. It is not really out of His jurisdiction or area of interest.
So, if, as you say... God is still God....have a little faith. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i think wierwille and the group tripped me out
never god or his son
not sure what i mean by "the group" -- just some leaders and people who didn't seem too god-like
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: In other news,
why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE?
There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us,
they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say.
It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to
think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different
phrases to make them.
Why do all the people who type in English all use the same language? Every time they need to use a definite article they use the word 'the'. That's the only word they use! Aren't they permitted to think for themselves? The English language must be for hillbillies, I guess. You'd think a legitimate language would have at least 50 definite articles in it.
It's called LANGUAGE! If you communicate to others in a LANGUAGE, then you must use the proper words of the LANGUAGE! Most people think babies are valuable; those same people think that bathwater is expendable. The reason a cliche is a cliche is because it's true. If you can think of a better way to communicate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" then have at it. If you can think of a better definite article than 'the' have at that, too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
John, what WW is talking about is "jargon", not "language" per se. I think you probably already realize that. This need to argue over the nuances of semantics seems to be a residual effect. I have often noticed it in people who have a previous history of involvement with The Way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
This is an interesting and provocative question. I have wondered the same thing too...are there talking points issued somewhere? Good observation...thanks for making me think. Where else did we hear that term baby and bathwater used?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
There is a difference between language and buzz words: one everyone has a common understanding, the other may or may not be understood by everyone and also helps identify members of a certain group.
Now when you get people reading off the same talking points, you get the same similes, metaphors, ,and idioms. When people say the exact same thing over and over again, its almost a dead givaway that whatevers being said came from a common source.
Look at politicians, you can tell they're going by talking points because everyone of them will say almost the same thing. And that bleeds down right to the rank and file.
I do, however, think you could have expressed that in a little less confrontive way to Wordwolf. Do you think he doesn't understand the dynamics of language? Do you think he doesn't know what a cliche is?
Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification?
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote:
Instead of trying to bully him into silence, maybe you should have asked him for clearification?
I think he was trying to bully me (and by association, Tony) into silence. The self appointed damage control czar at it again. For many here, the other side of the story has become the ONLY side of the story, and when Tony makes an honest observation like "why are there so many tripped out Christians here?" this is a problem. He has what? 30 posts? WWs message was very clear.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
First off, I don't read any aggression in his post. He made a simple observation.
Second, there aggression everywhere in your post: accusing, talking down to, taking sides.
Third, even if you want to rationalize by saying he was bullying you: two wrongs don't make a right
Finally, in this area: Do I have to repeat it?
Okay, everybody: according to your chosen belief system, if you believe he's trying to bully you into silence, he's trying to bully you into silence. It's not that he is trying to bully you into silence, but that your belief is making him seem to be trying to bully you into silence.
Damage control has nothing to do with it. I didn't say: don't present your side, or imply anything that suggested I wanted you to not to state your side.
I asked if there was a better non-aggressive way to present your side--you know, without accusing, talking down to, or taking sides?
Also, on this front: according to your chosen belief system, if you believe I'm attempting damage control, then I'm attempting damage control. Its not due to any effort on my part, but due to your believing.
Why is it a problem? It doesn't seem to be bothering them. Why is it bothering you? You really overreacted to Wordwolf's post. Why is it triggering one of your insecurities? Again we go back to your believing making it a problem.
However, if I were to hazard a guess: You think these tripped out Christian seen the same bullying you just displayed and tripped out? Nah, that can't possibly be the answer can it? Maybe they got tired of being abused by bullies. Nah, that couldn't be it either. After all people enjoy being sworn at, accused, being called names, being talked down to...(where is that sarcastic smiley?)
As I said before Saint Vic was a bully, he taught others to be bullys. Look at Martindale. 'Nuff said. Then you add to it the trickle down theory...and you have a ministry of bullies bullying people because they think that normal behavior.
As in my previous post, when I get a whole bunch of people using similar methaphors and idioms, I can bet my press card they're coming from a common source. But then, just because you read it on GSC its immediately one sided.
Once again: according to your chosen belief system: if you believe everything on GSC is one-sided, then its one-sided. Its not that it is one-sided, but that your belief is making it one-sided.
Have you ever considered Wordwolf's side? You seem to want everyone to consider your side but you don't want to consider anyone elses.
So we once again get back to my original questions:(which you continuously dodge)
What do you want?
How will you know when you have it?
To which I'll add: do you think bullying and talking down to people will help you to get it?
To put it in ministry terms: I think its time you checked your believing and renewed your mind.
SoCrates
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Speaking of jargon, I find it mildly amusing, for some reason, that, in The Way, "tripped out" meant something entirely different than it meant to the general populace.
I'm just sayin'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.