the absolute lack of the way ministry in its ability to comprehend or teach anything about the bible has become very obvious to me since i began reading the baha'i writings because now i can hear the poetry, and now i can perceive the symbolism, and now i can understand how idiotic it was to pick apart "every jot and tittle" until the message had no meaning and the words carried weight only in their definitions. what a sorry, sad, dark path to spiritual death was laid and is still being laid by the way international. there's so much more to the message than the words themselves! and no matter how any one person interprets the words, it's still god's message and no one person will ever get it exactly right because nobody is god. what is god speaking into my heart when i am reading that particular part of his message? that's all i need to know right then and right there.
the absolute lack of the way ministry in its ability to comprehend or teach anything about the bible has become very obvious to me since i began reading the baha'i writings because now i can hear the poetry, and now i can perceive the symbolism, and now i can understand how idiotic it was to pick apart "every jot and tittle" until the message had no meaning and the words carried weight only in their definitions. what a sorry, sad, dark path to spiritual death was laid and is still being laid by the way international.
Anybody who's been in a university English department knows what Saint Vic was doing to the bible.
That's why there are so many thesises (thesii?) on what the white whale in Moby Dick ment. I'm afraid the only person that can answer the real meaning of the white whale is Melville and if you asked him he's probably tell you he included it because it sounded good.
But then, comes another amusing question: Through His foreknowledge God knew Satan was going to rebel, yet He created him anyway. Why?
Just as through His foreknowledge He knew man would eat the fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden, yet he put it there anyway. Again, why?
SoCrates
My understanding of God's foreknowledge is His ability to see into the future. One way I've had it explained to me was visualize a cone. God is at the point and all of time is on the disc at the bottom. So God can see all of time at once.
Don't you think your getting just a tad defensive here? All I asked was a simple question. I didn't say anything about his right to put a tree where he wanted. I didn't say anything about it was wrong not to let them eat it. I didn't say his rule was wrong.
I don't leave a loaded gun around a child, even if I told it not to play with it. I don't leave a book of matches lying around the house, even though I alert my neices and nephews to the dangers of playing with them. And these precautions are based on what might happen, nonetheless if I could foresee it will happen.
No complaint. Just questioning what doesn't make sense to me. If I had did that in the ministry I would have left a lot sooner.
There are a couple of flaws in this argument. First, one has to accept that one needs to be saved. Two, one has to accept this is the only way, what if there are others? How do we know there are not others?
Neither argument can arrive at a conclusion by reasoning, so being a skeptic, I just put them in my "Don't Have Enough Information" file.
I'm nowhere as smart as God, but a contradictions exist even in the plan scenerio. If God can create anything he wants, why not cut to the chase and create that perfect universe he wanted in the first place? Why put human beings through the whole spiritual battle scenerio?
Again, this is something for my Don't Have Enough Information file.
SoCrates
WordWolf started a good discussion on what does God know in doctrinal
My 2 cents for this discussion – will try to be as brief as possible given this is not in doctrinal forum:
Assuming the Bible correctly describes some attributes of God Almighty [which is my assumption] – I tend to think a theological discussion of those attributes will only be an approximation or mere speculation seeing that we are but finite beings.
That being said – my idea of God's foreknowledge may be somewhat similar to your cone idea, God at the point viewing the other end.....but with an added feature - considering a description of God in Isaiah 57:15 [that God inhabits eternity] – I get the sense that God is not only the creator of this thing called time but God also has an interactive role in time.
Maybe God's foreknowledge is more than just SEEING into the future – since He inhabits eternity, perhaps He's already experienced it – being there as it happens or happened [depending on what time-referenced point of view you adopt]. Hard to imagine? Yup! i have no idea what it's like to be an infinite being.
~~
When it comes to trying to fathom the wisdom of God's plan or plans - i have another assumption – that God was not surprised by any choices of angels or mortals but had in fact already incorporated these contingencies into His plans.
And if I may speculate further – perhaps in giving us freewill God figured that was the best way to gear us up for eternity and His "ultimate plan" – through the experiences [good & bad], lessons, wisdom, heartaches & joys, relationships, etc. we have in this life.....Maybe that's the way God intended to create a universe to His liking - by allowing us to play a part in the grand scheme of things.
in the next life we don't start from scratch…..maybe there's some continuity….here and now = phase 1……...eternity = phase 2.
In my opinion, it really belongs here as much as it does in doctrinal because it deals with an interpretation of that section of scripture that was somewhat unique to The Way, especially the original sin part that Wierwille said we would just have to take his word on. That, in itself, makes it "About The Way".
The idea that Adam handed over dominion to Satan when he sinned is not unique to TWI....it is why people use terms like we were ransomed or purchased with a price. Although I have never heard it put in terms of legally legal...or ever heard Martindale's strange view of original sin...comparatively speaking VP was not so out in left field on this part of his theology . He was a trained minister at one time...and he did know some theology .....every once in awhile....he used some of it in the class.
To Add: It is not a song thread either, but we have a song in it.....I don't think this thread or the song are in the wrong place. You had a question and people tried to discuss...seemed reasonable to me.
I don't believe everything we learned in PFAL was wrong. . . . my personal reason for saying toss the baby...the water and the tub out the window is not because the entire class was bogus...it is because it is too difficult to sift through unless one is a trained theologian. Even the way we learned to approach scripture was skewed IMO...and I think it is better to start with a clean slate.
I was very interested reading the thread on actual errors in PFAL, it was a herculean effort....but, it is really very difficult to go through all that material and see what was good. Most of us are not trained. Many of us got our knowledge and approach to scripture from PFAL. Funny thing is...VP actually was trained.
Eternity is a long time. If it were your eternity that you had created, wouldn't you want to spend it with the coolest people possible?
I recently read somewhere (Bullinger? I can't remember where) that the serpent should have been translated as the "shining one". Eve talked to a shining one, or a shining man, not a serpent. Guess who that was.
But then, comes another amusing question: Through His foreknowledge God knew Satan was going to rebel, yet He created him anyway. Why?
Just as through His foreknowledge He knew man would eat the fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden, yet he put it there anyway. Again, why?
SoCrates
In Judaism it is said that God intended for man to eat of the tree, but that the eating of the tree was to take place at a certain time. Man ate from it too soon and the knowedge he received caused chaos. Judaism doesn't teach we are now all born with sin nature. Rather, it teaches that we are to do our part (and our part varies from person to person) to help restore order.
In Judaism it is said that God intended for man to eat of the tree, but that the eating of the tree was to take place at a certain time. Man ate from it too soon and the knowedge he received caused chaos.
Wasn't that also mentioned in PFAL? That man was to eat of it, but not just at that time? But "jumped the gun"?
But ... "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Now as regards that expression:
Meaning
The rash or inexperienced will attempt things that wiser people are more cautious of.
Origin
'Fool' is now a more derogatory insult than it was when this proverb was coined, in the early 18th century. At that time a fool wasn't a simpleton, lacking in intelligence, simply someone who had behaved foolishly.
'Fools rush in...' has a precise derivation, in that it is a quotation from the English poet Alexander Pope's An essay on criticism, 1709:
Such shameless Bards we have; and yet 'tis true,
There are as mad, abandon'd Criticks too.
The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read,
With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head,
With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears,
And always List'ning to Himself appears.
All Books he reads, and all he reads assails,
From Dryden's Fables down to Durfey's Tales.
With him, most Authors steal their Works, or buy;
Garth did not write his own Dispensary.
Name a new Play, and he's the Poet's Friend,
Nay show'd his Faults - but when wou'd Poets mend?
No Place so Sacred from such Fops is barr'd,
Nor is Paul's Church more safe than Paul's Church-yard:
Nay, fly to Altars; there they'll talk you dead;
For Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread.
The 'fools' that Pope targetted there were the literary critics of the day.
Which actually fits quite well with what we learned from PFAL. A supposed expert (VPW) sets himself up - as expert, The Teacher - but "The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read,/ With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head,/ With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears,/ And always List'ning to Himself appears./ All Books he reads, and all he reads assails..."
DocVic assailed and assaulted and wrested everything he read. It's difficult to work out what's straight and what's twisted with him.
I read the Adam & Eve and serpent story as allegorical now.
We all have our own snakes, "apples" - temptations and choices - that we need to address on a daily, hourly, basis. There is a cost, sometimes very heavy cost, to making a choice in defiance of what we know to be right, taking into account all that we know or should know.
The snake as a "shining one" - a minister of light - and haven't we all met those!
Is perhaps this Genesis account one about not following false prophets, ministers disguised as "shining ones"?
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Maybe part of the choice we face daily is to avoid following false prophets, whatever form they take - in the church or simply following the media line.
Another thing that lost me in PLAF was when Saint Vic explained humans being thrown out of the Garden of Eden and the transfer of ownership of earth to the devil.
Saint Vic touted this transfer as logically logical and legally legal. I just don't understand how.
How does committing original sin (whatever it was) transfer ownership of the Earth to Satan. And if you look, earth isn't Satan's only domain, the whole universe is. For a lack of a better word, I'll call it corruption, exists throught the universe. Mars shows signs of erosion. Jupiter was hit by a comet. Even the sun will eventually use all its fuel and burn out.
Tied into that is: then is eating from the tree of life a physical act too? Eating from the tree of knowledge was whether it was eating an apple or going by either of the ministries two explanations, all were physical acts.
SoCrates
So, VPW sprouted off on a lot of things he knew nothing about.
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brainfixed
the absolute lack of the way ministry in its ability to comprehend or teach anything about the bible has become very obvious to me since i began reading the baha'i writings because now i can hear the poetry, and now i can perceive the symbolism, and now i can understand how idiotic it was to pick apart "every jot and tittle" until the message had no meaning and the words carried weight only in their definitions. what a sorry, sad, dark path to spiritual death was laid and is still being laid by the way international. there's so much more to the message than the words themselves! and no matter how any one person interprets the words, it's still god's message and no one person will ever get it exactly right because nobody is god. what is god speaking into my heart when i am reading that particular part of his message? that's all i need to know right then and right there.
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So_crates
Anybody who's been in a university English department knows what Saint Vic was doing to the bible.
That's why there are so many thesises (thesii?) on what the white whale in Moby Dick ment. I'm afraid the only person that can answer the real meaning of the white whale is Melville and if you asked him he's probably tell you he included it because it sounded good.
SoCrates
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excathedra
that was lovely brainfixed
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T-Bone
WordWolf started a good discussion on what does God know in doctrinal
http://www.greasespo...post__p__364531
~~
My 2 cents for this discussion – will try to be as brief as possible given this is not in doctrinal forum:
Assuming the Bible correctly describes some attributes of God Almighty [which is my assumption] – I tend to think a theological discussion of those attributes will only be an approximation or mere speculation seeing that we are but finite beings.
That being said – my idea of God's foreknowledge may be somewhat similar to your cone idea, God at the point viewing the other end.....but with an added feature - considering a description of God in Isaiah 57:15 [that God inhabits eternity] – I get the sense that God is not only the creator of this thing called time but God also has an interactive role in time.
Maybe God's foreknowledge is more than just SEEING into the future – since He inhabits eternity, perhaps He's already experienced it – being there as it happens or happened [depending on what time-referenced point of view you adopt]. Hard to imagine? Yup! i have no idea what it's like to be an infinite being.
~~
When it comes to trying to fathom the wisdom of God's plan or plans - i have another assumption – that God was not surprised by any choices of angels or mortals but had in fact already incorporated these contingencies into His plans.
And if I may speculate further – perhaps in giving us freewill God figured that was the best way to gear us up for eternity and His "ultimate plan" – through the experiences [good & bad], lessons, wisdom, heartaches & joys, relationships, etc. we have in this life.....Maybe that's the way God intended to create a universe to His liking - by allowing us to play a part in the grand scheme of things.
in the next life we don't start from scratch…..maybe there's some continuity….here and now = phase 1……...eternity = phase 2.
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waysider
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So_crates
Sorry, guys, I didn't mean to mispost. I thought about posting this in the doctrinal section, but since it was about Way doctrine....
Again, please accept my apologies.
SoCrates
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waysider
In my opinion, it really belongs here as much as it does in doctrinal because it deals with an interpretation of that section of scripture that was somewhat unique to The Way, especially the original sin part that Wierwille said we would just have to take his word on. That, in itself, makes it "About The Way".
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geisha779
The idea that Adam handed over dominion to Satan when he sinned is not unique to TWI....it is why people use terms like we were ransomed or purchased with a price. Although I have never heard it put in terms of legally legal...or ever heard Martindale's strange view of original sin...comparatively speaking VP was not so out in left field on this part of his theology . He was a trained minister at one time...and he did know some theology .....every once in awhile....he used some of it in the class.
To Add: It is not a song thread either, but we have a song in it.....I don't think this thread or the song are in the wrong place. You had a question and people tried to discuss...seemed reasonable to me.
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geisha779
I don't believe everything we learned in PFAL was wrong. . . . my personal reason for saying toss the baby...the water and the tub out the window is not because the entire class was bogus...it is because it is too difficult to sift through unless one is a trained theologian. Even the way we learned to approach scripture was skewed IMO...and I think it is better to start with a clean slate.
I was very interested reading the thread on actual errors in PFAL, it was a herculean effort....but, it is really very difficult to go through all that material and see what was good. Most of us are not trained. Many of us got our knowledge and approach to scripture from PFAL. Funny thing is...VP actually was trained.
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OperaBuff
Here's how I figure it. God did the heavens and earth thing to find out (a) who can stand and fight against evil, (b) who has a loving and giving heart, and © who He wants to be with Him and Jesus Christ for all eternity.
Eternity is a long time. If it were your eternity that you had created, wouldn't you want to spend it with the coolest people possible?
I recently read somewhere (Bullinger? I can't remember where) that the serpent should have been translated as the "shining one". Eve talked to a shining one, or a shining man, not a serpent. Guess who that was.
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Abigail
In Judaism it is said that God intended for man to eat of the tree, but that the eating of the tree was to take place at a certain time. Man ate from it too soon and the knowedge he received caused chaos. Judaism doesn't teach we are now all born with sin nature. Rather, it teaches that we are to do our part (and our part varies from person to person) to help restore order.
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Twinky
Wasn't that also mentioned in PFAL? That man was to eat of it, but not just at that time? But "jumped the gun"?
But ... "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Now as regards that expression:
Meaning
The rash or inexperienced will attempt things that wiser people are more cautious of.
Origin
'Fool' is now a more derogatory insult than it was when this proverb was coined, in the early 18th century. At that time a fool wasn't a simpleton, lacking in intelligence, simply someone who had behaved foolishly.
'Fools rush in...' has a precise derivation, in that it is a quotation from the English poet Alexander Pope's An essay on criticism, 1709:
The 'fools' that Pope targetted there were the literary critics of the day.
Which actually fits quite well with what we learned from PFAL. A supposed expert (VPW) sets himself up - as expert, The Teacher - but "The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read,/ With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head,/ With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears,/ And always List'ning to Himself appears./ All Books he reads, and all he reads assails..."
DocVic assailed and assaulted and wrested everything he read. It's difficult to work out what's straight and what's twisted with him.
I read the Adam & Eve and serpent story as allegorical now.
We all have our own snakes, "apples" - temptations and choices - that we need to address on a daily, hourly, basis. There is a cost, sometimes very heavy cost, to making a choice in defiance of what we know to be right, taking into account all that we know or should know.
The snake as a "shining one" - a minister of light - and haven't we all met those!
Is perhaps this Genesis account one about not following false prophets, ministers disguised as "shining ones"?
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Maybe part of the choice we face daily is to avoid following false prophets, whatever form they take - in the church or simply following the media line.
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Grace Valerie Claire
So, VPW sprouted off on a lot of things he knew nothing about.
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