I had an interesting talk with the hospice "faith" lady who counseled many dying people.
When VP started whining about how he "wished he was the man he knew to be" - I think he was starting to freak. The end was coming and his whole life had been a fraud - a wolf in sheep's clothing. The end is coming, no way out, and he can't change a thing. He railed and raged on his way out, but kept the basketball or football going on tv.
Wierwille liked his Harleys......for sure.
But I tend to believe that young wierwille wanted, more than anything, to be a respected and revered man in the New Knoxville community. According to Mrs. W's book, victor was greatly influenced by the Dr. L.H. Kunst who commanded the attention and respect of the German Reformed Church in New Knoxville. The book depicts a photo taken on "The Great Day of Dedication" -- August 19, 1894.
Could it be that wierwille "wished" he'd been a man like Dr. Kunst? Did vpw "wish" he could walk about town and have the respect of businessmen, local politicians, and devout donors.....rather than shunned by the locals?
Could it be that wierwille knew that his fawning followers were the product of manipulation and exploitation.....rather than bedrock principles and honored respect? Would a narcisstic man be content with a rag-tag youth movement and NOT the real levers of power in the community?
IMO....Wierwille's "Rosebud" was to be a prominent Church Minister who wielded power and influence and a lasting legacy. He desired that his own father would respect his achievements. Even wierwille's "doctorate" was questionable....and he knew it. Looking for shortcuts and quick answers, he resorted to plagairism. In the end, wierwille had to face the man in the mirror and knew he failed.
Supposed to be an "orientalism" that he learned from K.C. Pillai.
Isaiah Chapter 38
38:1In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
38:2Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,
38:3And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
38:4Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
38:5Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Notice that it doesn't say WHY he turned his face to the wall, only that this is what he did. It doesn't even say that this was customary. Unless there is another section of scripture that gives more insight, I would rank this as speculative, private interpretation.
Oh, but wait. Pillai lived in the land where the Bible was written, so, of course, that automatically made him an authority on things that happened 2,000+ years before his lifetime
Do we all change our minds on our deathbeds? What does this have to do with anything?
FWIW...a few things i currently understand...
the "arts of dying" are perhaps the most important/least understood contexts of scripture in our death-avoiding culture. VPW, TWI and PFAL has a bad case of it, resulting in much harm. imho, it is lack of this context more than any other that has led to such a wide variety of interpetations and grasping at straws.
re-read the epistles as writings to an emerging order of monks/nuns doctors/nurses midwives/chaplains preparing to become better caregivers.
"physician...heal your self" by "dying daily" = being devoted to a contemplative practice and lifestyle as a way to do less harm to the world in general.
Dying is the ultimate spiritual experience. "enlightenment at gunpoint" ...the last rite of passage and opportunity for transcending the ego and tasting radical grace, even if it is but a brief peak experience.
the quality of our "leaving" has quite a ripple effect. there can be profound healing, in spite of not having a cure, in the end-of-life experience. where words like grace, mercy, atonement, redemption are experienced directly in spite of the words we find to describe them. they cease to be mere translations and concepts.
my best guess is that "turning to the wall" is much like "entering into the closet to pray"...an inward contemplative perspective, i this case, brought about by utter failure of external circumstances (aka "dying"). Priorities and perspectives shift radically when one is facing the end. and sometimes a change of perspective may even result in a renewed will to live that extends life for a little while longer.
i dunno. i wish i were a better writer. perhaps some of this rings true for you.
38:1In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
38:2Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,
38:3And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
38:4Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
38:5Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Notice that it doesn't say WHY he turned his face to the wall, only that this is what he did. It doesn't even say that this was customary. Unless there is another section of scripture that gives more insight, I would rank this as speculative, private interpretation.
Oh, but wait. Pillai lived in the land where the Bible was written, so, of course, that automatically made him an authority on things that happened 2,000+ years before his lifetime
Gee, I never realized that India was part of the Middle East
Gee, I never realized that India was part of the Middle East
I guess I need to take the new geography, and here silly old me thought the Bible lands were the Sinai Penisula, Arabian,North African, Turkey, Afgahnistan, Persia. Next thing they will tell us China, Vietnam, Korea, and Japan are "Bible Lands" as well. Lamsa possibly but not Pillai.
I was at my dad's deathbed. He was in hospice for a month before he died--he knew he was terminal. He did not suddenly flip into a religious person full of regrets for his awful life--but then he never lived an awful life of damaging others.He loved to help people and even volunteered at a local nursing home until just a few months before going into hospice. He was heavily medicated at the end but still seemed to find some enjoyment with family and friend's visits.
He did like to play chess with the hospice minister who ended up doing the funeral.
Well, you know they say there are no atheist in foxholes.
There probably are no atheist on deathbeds, either. When confronted with the great unknown, a person will grasp at any straw.
SoCrates
I beg to differ. My Uncle was a Medic in World War two and received the Purple Heart. He claims he became an atheist in a fox hole and still is to this day.
It's just an expression. It simply means that, in times of extreme stress, many people will ponder the existence of a higher power. It's not necessarily literal or all-encompassing.
It's just an expression. It simply means that, in times of extreme stress, many people will ponder the existence of a higher power. It's not necessarily literal or all-encompassing.
Thanks Waysider, I realize it's just an expression but you would be surprised how often you hear it when you tell people you're an atheist or agnostic.
I was at my dad's deathbed. He was in hospice for a month before he died--he knew he was terminal. He did not suddenly flip into a religious person full of regrets for his awful life--but then he never lived an awful life of damaging others.He loved to help people and even volunteered at a local nursing home until just a few months before going into hospice. He was heavily medicated at the end but still seemed to find some enjoyment with family and friend's visits.
He did like to play chess with the hospice minister who ended up doing the funeral.
Bramble, I personally would rather die than play chess. Â That is one game I don't understand, nor do I want too.
Broken Arrow.....your mention of "Rosebud" just might have hit closer to home than most think. For those who haven't seen the movie, Citizen Kane,....the search for "Rosebud" is on when Mr. Kane, an enormously weath media proprietor, whispers it in his dying breath.
Wierwille moved his ministry operations back to the Wierwille Homestead in 1962.
He reminisced his childhood years at many of those corps nightowls in the Way Woods.
He and Harry worked together to restore and expand the wierwille house.
He had the BRC built within walking distance of his parents' home.
He had the barn restored and a focal point of way promotion brochures.
He built his life's work on little or no legitimate research work (like Kanes' yellow journalism).
He withdrew from public view and grudgingly faded in the spotlight of recognition.
He planned and requested burial near the wierwille homestead, near his brother Harry.
But I tend to believe that young wierwille wanted, more than anything, to be a respected and revered man in the New Knoxville community. According to Mrs. W's book, victor was greatly influenced by the Dr. L.H. Kunst who commanded the attention and respect of the German Reformed Church in New Knoxville. The book depicts a photo taken on "The Great Day of Dedication" -- August 19, 1894.
Could it be that wierwille "wished" he'd been a man like Dr. Kunst? Did vpw "wish" he could walk about town and have the respect of businessmen, local politicians, and devout donors.....rather than shunned by the locals?
Could it be that wierwille knew that his fawning followers were the product of manipulation and exploitation.....rather than bedrock principles and honored respect? Would a narcisstic man be content with a rag-tag youth movement and NOT the real levers of power in the community?
IMO....Wierwille's "Rosebud" was to be a prominent Church Minister who wielded power and influence and a lasting legacy. He desired that his own father would respect his achievements. Even wierwille's "doctorate" was questionable....and he knew it. Looking for shortcuts and quick answers, he resorted to plagairism. In the end, wierwille had to face the man in the mirror and knew he failed.
Sky, your posts are a continual delight to me!! Â I think in the end he knew he had failed, in a major way. Â I think he may have been afraid to face God; he knew he had strayed far from the Word. Â Someday all of us will have to face God for our actions in this world. Â I think at the end of his life, VPW knew that he would have to face God, and be held accountable for his behavior. Â I know that someday God will hold me accountable for my actions; thus everyday I attempt to treat people in a manner that is acceptable, and pleasing to God.
Well Grace, I was thinking in terms of Skyrider's Citizen Kane/Rosebud reference - what things wierwille might remember from his youth - what he could get away with as a juvenile.
Â
Juvenile delinquency is the habitual committing of criminal acts or offenses by a young person, especially one below the age at which ordinary criminal prosecution is possible.
Â
 But I see your point too - as an adult wierwille figured how to get away with criminal acts thru various means - he created a  persona he could hide behind - as God's apostle for our day and time (surely the flock can overlook a "little" plagiarism here and there)....the lockbox to keep a lid on scandals getting out...start a cult - everything in the kingdom - I mean cult - belongs to the king  - he encouraged people to think of him as the man of God for the world - "so wouldn't you like to bless the man of God in the motor coach."
Grace, you do have the option to play chess, lose, badly, and go on living to play games you do enjoy.
True!! Â Chess is one game that is way over my head. Â I know people who love it. Â I think I read that chess was invented in India, something to do with teaching people about combat.
I had an interesting talk with the hospice "faith" lady who counseled many dying people.
When VP started whining about how he "wished he was the man he knew to be" - I think he was starting to freak. The end was coming and his whole life had been a fraud - a wolf in sheep's clothing. The end is coming, no way out, and he can't change a thing. He railed and raged on his way out, but kept the basketball or football going on tv.
Sun, I think he freaked because he knew that he would be accountable to God, for all of his actions.
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skyrider
Wierwille liked his Harleys......for sure.
But I tend to believe that young wierwille wanted, more than anything, to be a respected and revered man in the New Knoxville community. According to Mrs. W's book, victor was greatly influenced by the Dr. L.H. Kunst who commanded the attention and respect of the German Reformed Church in New Knoxville. The book depicts a photo taken on "The Great Day of Dedication" -- August 19, 1894.
Could it be that wierwille "wished" he'd been a man like Dr. Kunst? Did vpw "wish" he could walk about town and have the respect of businessmen, local politicians, and devout donors.....rather than shunned by the locals?
Could it be that wierwille knew that his fawning followers were the product of manipulation and exploitation.....rather than bedrock principles and honored respect? Would a narcisstic man be content with a rag-tag youth movement and NOT the real levers of power in the community?
IMO....Wierwille's "Rosebud" was to be a prominent Church Minister who wielded power and influence and a lasting legacy. He desired that his own father would respect his achievements. Even wierwille's "doctorate" was questionable....and he knew it. Looking for shortcuts and quick answers, he resorted to plagairism. In the end, wierwille had to face the man in the mirror and knew he failed.
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excathedra
he probably did have a problem with his own father
what was all that bs about him turning to the wall or some such crap
i mean, who in the heck studies the position a person dies in
i don't know maybe it means something to someone
but if you're dead, that's it
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Broken Arrow
Supposed to be an "orientalism" that he learned from K.C. Pillai.
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waysider
Isaiah Chapter 38
38:1In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
38:2Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,
38:3And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
38:4Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
38:5Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Notice that it doesn't say WHY he turned his face to the wall, only that this is what he did. It doesn't even say that this was customary. Unless there is another section of scripture that gives more insight, I would rank this as speculative, private interpretation.
Oh, but wait. Pillai lived in the land where the Bible was written, so, of course, that automatically made him an authority on things that happened 2,000+ years before his lifetime
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sirguessalot
FWIW...a few things i currently understand...
the "arts of dying" are perhaps the most important/least understood contexts of scripture in our death-avoiding culture. VPW, TWI and PFAL has a bad case of it, resulting in much harm. imho, it is lack of this context more than any other that has led to such a wide variety of interpetations and grasping at straws.
re-read the epistles as writings to an emerging order of monks/nuns doctors/nurses midwives/chaplains preparing to become better caregivers.
"physician...heal your self" by "dying daily" = being devoted to a contemplative practice and lifestyle as a way to do less harm to the world in general.
Dying is the ultimate spiritual experience. "enlightenment at gunpoint" ...the last rite of passage and opportunity for transcending the ego and tasting radical grace, even if it is but a brief peak experience.
the quality of our "leaving" has quite a ripple effect. there can be profound healing, in spite of not having a cure, in the end-of-life experience. where words like grace, mercy, atonement, redemption are experienced directly in spite of the words we find to describe them. they cease to be mere translations and concepts.
my best guess is that "turning to the wall" is much like "entering into the closet to pray"...an inward contemplative perspective, i this case, brought about by utter failure of external circumstances (aka "dying"). Priorities and perspectives shift radically when one is facing the end. and sometimes a change of perspective may even result in a renewed will to live that extends life for a little while longer.
i dunno. i wish i were a better writer. perhaps some of this rings true for you.
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So_crates
The way I'm looking at it is: Saint Vic said he wished he was the man that he knew himself to be.
Well, combine that with what he told G33r(?) in POP, that Craigmeister was "going to ruin the whole thing."
One interpretation was he saw his con coming to an end.
Another is he was wishing he could perpetuate even greater cons.
SoCrates
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Gee, I never realized that India was part of the Middle East
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I guess I need to take the new geography, and here silly old me thought the Bible lands were the Sinai Penisula, Arabian,North African, Turkey, Afgahnistan, Persia. Next thing they will tell us China, Vietnam, Korea, and Japan are "Bible Lands" as well. Lamsa possibly but not Pillai.
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Bramble
I was at my dad's deathbed. He was in hospice for a month before he died--he knew he was terminal. He did not suddenly flip into a religious person full of regrets for his awful life--but then he never lived an awful life of damaging others.He loved to help people and even volunteered at a local nursing home until just a few months before going into hospice. He was heavily medicated at the end but still seemed to find some enjoyment with family and friend's visits.
He did like to play chess with the hospice minister who ended up doing the funeral.
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taxicab
I beg to differ. My Uncle was a Medic in World War two and received the Purple Heart. He claims he became an atheist in a fox hole and still is to this day.
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waysider
It's just an expression. It simply means that, in times of extreme stress, many people will ponder the existence of a higher power. It's not necessarily literal or all-encompassing.
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taxicab
Thanks Waysider, I realize it's just an expression but you would be surprised how often you hear it when you tell people you're an atheist or agnostic.
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100% Free
I think the worst of it is when they would "confront" someone on their death bed.
Or when they publicly ripped them to shreds after they died.
Or being unkind and condemning to the family and friends.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bramble, I personally would rather die than play chess. Â That is one game I don't understand, nor do I want too.
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T-Bone
The carefree life of juvenile delinquencyÂ
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Grace Valerie Claire
How about a life of adult delinquency? Â
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, your posts are a continual delight to me!! Â I think in the end he knew he had failed, in a major way. Â I think he may have been afraid to face God; he knew he had strayed far from the Word. Â Someday all of us will have to face God for our actions in this world. Â I think at the end of his life, VPW knew that he would have to face God, and be held accountable for his behavior. Â I know that someday God will hold me accountable for my actions; thus everyday I attempt to treat people in a manner that is acceptable, and pleasing to God.
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T-Bone
Well Grace, I was thinking in terms of Skyrider's Citizen Kane/Rosebud reference - what things wierwille might remember from his youth - what he could get away with as a juvenile.
Â
Juvenile delinquency is the habitual committing of criminal acts or offenses by a young person, especially one below the age at which ordinary criminal prosecution is possible.
Â
 But I see your point too - as an adult wierwille figured how to get away with criminal acts thru various means - he created a  persona he could hide behind - as God's apostle for our day and time (surely the flock can overlook a "little" plagiarism here and there)....the lockbox to keep a lid on scandals getting out...start a cult - everything in the kingdom - I mean cult - belongs to the king  - he encouraged people to think of him as the man of God for the world - "so wouldn't you like to bless the man of God in the motor coach."
Â
Â
Â
Edited by T-BoneThe Rise of Rosebud
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Bolshevik
Grace, you do have the option to play chess, lose, badly, and go on living to play games you do enjoy.
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Grace Valerie Claire
True!! Â Chess is one game that is way over my head. Â I know people who love it. Â I think I read that chess was invented in India, something to do with teaching people about combat.
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T-Bone
Or maybe his last words were "Rosie's Bu++ "
Edited by T-BoneClarity & hilarity
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sun, I think he freaked because he knew that he would be accountable to God, for all of his actions.
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