Another thing that's always bothered me about twi doctrine.
Well, TWI really screws up Romans in a big way. But the idea of salvation being a free gift is from Romans and is based on the logic that since many were made sinners by the offense of one man (Adam) then in the same way many shall be made righteous by what Jesus Christ did. So not to shoot way off into doctrinal. VPW got his university of life teachings from Charles Welch book The Just and The Justifier. It's a good read that really breaks down Romans. Welch was an understudy of Bullinger for what that's worth.
And ya, people like those at the top of TWI who use grace as a license to sin will pay for that. Folks like Stalin and his ilk are something Christ will have to deal with at the judgments. Frankly, I am baffled by things as well.
Another thing that's always bothered me about twi doctrine.
Being born again gives you a free pass into heaven, no matter what you've done.
So, theoretically, if Hitler or Stalin or Mao Tse-tung were born again on their deathbed, they would have gotten a free pass into heaven.
So why not party hardy--eat, drink, and be merry--and save the being born again until the grim reaper is standing on your porch.
SoCrates
I love your thought process...you are really examining things. I always look forward to reading your posts.
Theoretically, one who recognizes the Lordship of Jesus Christ, is forgiven, but will become obedient to Him out of love...become a servant of right...and is in an accountable relationship with Him.
Didn't really happen in TWI.
But, if one's attitude is, I will do what I want now and confess on my deathbed...maybe they are not really being brought to a place of true repentance, real Godly sorrow, a genuine understanding of the need for a savior and actual conversion. Sounds more like an embracing of sin and counting on an easy out safety net. I don't think it works that way. The thief on the cross....he saw Jesus and then himself ....he genuinely repented.
Being in TWI we had a front row seat to an easy believism.....but, not so much to true faith and real conversion. That is why we saw little transformation to good. We made the word according to VP et al. Lord. It was idolatry and the word according to VP promoted some icky things.
I "believe" there is a difference between a verbal confession and saving faith. :)
I should clarify this a little. TWI quit teaching Romans, except a few select verses and various other contexts to suit their legalistic purposes. Romans breaks down into a salutation that leads to what is know as the outer section that deals with sins people commit. In this section it deals with jews and gentiles alike declaring all fallen short and under sin.
Then it segues into an inner section that deals with the sin nature, it's origins, mankinds utter subservience to it, and again concludes that there is none that are not guilty. Christ is given as the answer with salvation as the only out for unsaved man. In this inner section there is detailed two natures in the child of God. The old man and the new man. It's up to a person to walk in the new nature and bring forth good works vs walking in the old nature and being a slave to sin. Romans then goes back to an outer section around Romans 12 dealing with walking in newness of life. It delves briefly into an inner section again towards the end of the book.
That is the essence of Welch's breakdown of Romans. VPW's university of life tapes are a direct ripoff of the Just and the Justifier. I followed the tapes and studied the book during the same period of time while in-residence.
What this has to do with death beds is beyond me...I will switch back on topic now.
And therein lies much of the TWI falacy where they could not discerned what "the" new man really is.
And so to the deathbed they go.
With VP "wishing he were the man he knew to be". Or so someone says. Who knows. Or who cares! Did he really live up to that statement? Did he really wish... Was that all he could muster up! A wish he could do better before screwing everyone over. No believing action..
Maybe that deathbed statement is true after all! lol..
Oh, but this is about Bullinger, right.. So I heard he also said that I should be given all his estate after he died!
I always thought it was, "Et tu Howardus?", maybe it was, "Rosebud".
Broken Arrow.....your mention of "Rosebud" just might have hit closer to home than most think. For those who haven't seen the movie, Citizen Kane,....the search for "Rosebud" is on when Mr. Kane, an enormously weath media proprietor, whispers it in his dying breath.
Wierwille moved his ministry operations back to the Wierwille Homestead in 1962.
He reminisced his childhood years at many of those corps nightowls in the Way Woods.
He and Harry worked together to restore and expand the wierwille house.
He had the BRC built within walking distance of his parents' home.
He had the barn restored and a focal point of way promotion brochures.
He built his life's work on little or no legitimate research work (like Kanes' yellow journalism).
He withdrew from public view and grudgingly faded in the spotlight of recognition.
He planned and requested burial near the wierwille homestead, near his brother Harry.
I'm thinking, maybe that tractor of his neighbor's that he sank to the bottom of the pond?
Ha, Shrulliky! (<---spelling?) The old guy across the street from the Allen home who never would sell his farm to Vic. There are stories still circulating around from the old timers on staff about VPW and his neighbor's feud. Shrulliky died not too long ago and his relatives live there now, daughter I believe. Prueter is still in the house on the eastern border of the property. And they still hate TWI from what I know.
Never heard about the change in view on the Trinity. Is that validated in any way?
I'd assume that in one's final moments many things come to mind.
On the stuff in Romans - chapter 5 has some plainly stated stuff -
Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Funny. I thought I supposedly had the copyright on derailing threads.
There is a deathbed account in scripture: Jacob's in Gen. chapter 49. No sign of him changing his mind about anything. Some very confrontational stuff, however, plus a prophecy about Judah being the tribe Christ comes from.
Funny. I thought I supposedly had the copyright on derailing threads.
No need to worry. Your title belt is not in jeopardy.
There is a deathbed account in scripture: Jacob's in Gen. chapter 49. No sign of him changing his mind about anything. Some very confrontational stuff, however, plus a prophecy about Judah being the tribe Christ comes from.
Here's the original question:
Do we all change our minds on our deathbeds? What does this have to do with anything?
(See how the color thing works? Just click the little paint brush, Johnny.)
I had an interesting talk with the hospice "faith" lady who counseled many dying people.
When VP started whining about how he "wished he was the man he knew to be" - I think he was starting to freak. The end was coming and his whole life had been a fraud - a wolf in sheep's clothing. The end is coming, no way out, and he can't change a thing. He railed and raged on his way out, but kept the basketball or football going on tv.
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So_crates
Well, you know they say there are no atheist in foxholes.
There probably are no atheist on deathbeds, either. When confronted with the great unknown, a person will grasp at any straw.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
Once someone is dead, no one can have them verify what they said on their deathbed. So, I always take it with a grain of salt when I hear that.
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So_crates
Another thing that's always bothered me about twi doctrine.
Being born again gives you a free pass into heaven, no matter what you've done.
So, theoretically, if Hitler or Stalin or Mao Tse-tung were born again on their deathbed, they would have gotten a free pass into heaven.
So why not party hardy--eat, drink, and be merry--and save the being born again until the grim reaper is standing on your porch.
SoCrates
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OldSkool
Well, TWI really screws up Romans in a big way. But the idea of salvation being a free gift is from Romans and is based on the logic that since many were made sinners by the offense of one man (Adam) then in the same way many shall be made righteous by what Jesus Christ did. So not to shoot way off into doctrinal. VPW got his university of life teachings from Charles Welch book The Just and The Justifier. It's a good read that really breaks down Romans. Welch was an understudy of Bullinger for what that's worth.
And ya, people like those at the top of TWI who use grace as a license to sin will pay for that. Folks like Stalin and his ilk are something Christ will have to deal with at the judgments. Frankly, I am baffled by things as well.
reason for edit: misspelled book
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geisha779
I love your thought process...you are really examining things. I always look forward to reading your posts.
Theoretically, one who recognizes the Lordship of Jesus Christ, is forgiven, but will become obedient to Him out of love...become a servant of right...and is in an accountable relationship with Him.
Didn't really happen in TWI.
But, if one's attitude is, I will do what I want now and confess on my deathbed...maybe they are not really being brought to a place of true repentance, real Godly sorrow, a genuine understanding of the need for a savior and actual conversion. Sounds more like an embracing of sin and counting on an easy out safety net. I don't think it works that way. The thief on the cross....he saw Jesus and then himself ....he genuinely repented.
Being in TWI we had a front row seat to an easy believism.....but, not so much to true faith and real conversion. That is why we saw little transformation to good. We made the word according to VP et al. Lord. It was idolatry and the word according to VP promoted some icky things.
I "believe" there is a difference between a verbal confession and saving faith. :)
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OldSkool
I should clarify this a little. TWI quit teaching Romans, except a few select verses and various other contexts to suit their legalistic purposes. Romans breaks down into a salutation that leads to what is know as the outer section that deals with sins people commit. In this section it deals with jews and gentiles alike declaring all fallen short and under sin.
Then it segues into an inner section that deals with the sin nature, it's origins, mankinds utter subservience to it, and again concludes that there is none that are not guilty. Christ is given as the answer with salvation as the only out for unsaved man. In this inner section there is detailed two natures in the child of God. The old man and the new man. It's up to a person to walk in the new nature and bring forth good works vs walking in the old nature and being a slave to sin. Romans then goes back to an outer section around Romans 12 dealing with walking in newness of life. It delves briefly into an inner section again towards the end of the book.
That is the essence of Welch's breakdown of Romans. VPW's university of life tapes are a direct ripoff of the Just and the Justifier. I followed the tapes and studied the book during the same period of time while in-residence.
What this has to do with death beds is beyond me...I will switch back on topic now.
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TrustAndObey
And therein lies much of the TWI falacy where they could not discerned what "the" new man really is.
And so to the deathbed they go.
With VP "wishing he were the man he knew to be". Or so someone says. Who knows. Or who cares! Did he really live up to that statement? Did he really wish... Was that all he could muster up! A wish he could do better before screwing everyone over. No believing action..
Maybe that deathbed statement is true after all! lol..
Oh, but this is about Bullinger, right.. So I heard he also said that I should be given all his estate after he died!
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excathedra
i don't know. i don't think anything is a free pass
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Ham
some of us were lucky enough to change our minds in this life..
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excathedra
god looks on the heart
i'll let you know the outcome when i am god
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Ham
You ARE god.. don't you know, dear friend..
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waysider
Wierwille on his deathbed:
"Pour me one more before last call."
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Broken Arrow
I always thought it was, "Et tu Howardus?", maybe it was, "Rosebud".
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skyrider
Broken Arrow.....your mention of "Rosebud" just might have hit closer to home than most think. For those who haven't seen the movie, Citizen Kane,....the search for "Rosebud" is on when Mr. Kane, an enormously weath media proprietor, whispers it in his dying breath.
Wierwille moved his ministry operations back to the Wierwille Homestead in 1962.
He reminisced his childhood years at many of those corps nightowls in the Way Woods.
He and Harry worked together to restore and expand the wierwille house.
He had the BRC built within walking distance of his parents' home.
He had the barn restored and a focal point of way promotion brochures.
He built his life's work on little or no legitimate research work (like Kanes' yellow journalism).
He withdrew from public view and grudgingly faded in the spotlight of recognition.
He planned and requested burial near the wierwille homestead, near his brother Harry.
What was Wierwille's "Rosebud?"
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Broken Arrow
I'm thinking, maybe that tractor of his neighbor's that he sank to the bottom of the pond?
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So_crates
Not a sled but something else he rode quite frequently?
SoCrates
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OldSkool
Ha, Shrulliky! (<---spelling?) The old guy across the street from the Allen home who never would sell his farm to Vic. There are stories still circulating around from the old timers on staff about VPW and his neighbor's feud. Shrulliky died not too long ago and his relatives live there now, daughter I believe. Prueter is still in the house on the eastern border of the property. And they still hate TWI from what I know.
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socks
Never heard about the change in view on the Trinity. Is that validated in any way?
I'd assume that in one's final moments many things come to mind.
On the stuff in Romans - chapter 5 has some plainly stated stuff -
Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Wierwille and Martindale thought they were God. I am God alone, unstoppable, unchangeable(apolgies to Billy James Foote/Phillips, Craig, and Dean)
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Ham
well, if EVERYBODY is god, doesn't that level the playing field?
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johniam
Funny. I thought I supposedly had the copyright on derailing threads.
There is a deathbed account in scripture: Jacob's in Gen. chapter 49. No sign of him changing his mind about anything. Some very confrontational stuff, however, plus a prophecy about Judah being the tribe Christ comes from.
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waysider
(See how the color thing works? Just click the little paint brush, Johnny.)
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Sunesis
Weirwille's Rosebud: Harley.
I had an interesting talk with the hospice "faith" lady who counseled many dying people.
When VP started whining about how he "wished he was the man he knew to be" - I think he was starting to freak. The end was coming and his whole life had been a fraud - a wolf in sheep's clothing. The end is coming, no way out, and he can't change a thing. He railed and raged on his way out, but kept the basketball or football going on tv.
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So_crates
Is it possible we missed the point?
Rather than remorse, maybe he ment some of his greatest cons would never see fruition.
Maybe he was lamenting, "So much still to pull and there's no time"
SoCrates
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